#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 21, 2020 17:56:39 GMT -5
How do you feel about the way he's being portrayed in the past so far?
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Post by silentbreeze on Jul 21, 2020 18:07:40 GMT -5
While he's a little too aggressive, it's not completely OOC for him to speak out. He was just too rude about it imo lol. Nice that he looks up to his former mentor a lot ig
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 18:11:06 GMT -5
I think they're laying it on a bit thick, trying to show that he was always a bad guy who was unhinged from the start. It's weird.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 21, 2020 18:12:49 GMT -5
I think people are really overreacting. In that exact same scene, Mousefur and Cloudtail are in the same boat as Ashfur, the only difference is that Ashfur has a replacement in mind with Dustpelt. He's not being painted as very different from the rest.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 21, 2020 18:16:39 GMT -5
Yeah I don' see exactly where he was butchered. It'd be one thing to find Cloudtail backing up his kittypet retorts genuinely off, given he threatened to beat up Brambleclaw for doing the same judgement, but everyone's a douche in the preview, so he not out of place there as much as it infuriates me to see TC being all "Oh Firestar would TOTALLY be a Kittypet again after spending 3 years (Speaking from the time FQ happened which was around 3 years after he joined TC) proving us he wasn't going back to that anymore and Sandstorm would TOTALLY join him in that life". Like, get it was a shock, but bruh.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 21, 2020 18:22:09 GMT -5
i still believe ashfur was never a huge jerk like that until after the squirrelflight drama. so to me, it does feel like retconning or butchering. i firmly believe he was a normal passive and nice guy before the squirrelflight drama.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 21, 2020 18:48:02 GMT -5
all of TC was OOC, but ashfur was the only one with a really sneering attitude about it. i think its pretty clear they're trying to retcon his younger self to "foreshadow" his fall from grace or something. don't care for it. would be much more tragic and interesting if he was depicted as sweet and loyal in his youth.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 21, 2020 18:48:49 GMT -5
I think people are really overreacting. In that exact same scene, Mousefur and Cloudtail are in the same boat as Ashfur, the only difference is that Ashfur has a replacement in mind with Dustpelt. He's not being painted as very different from the rest. I feel like when people think of past Ashfur, they have a certain image in mind, of him covering for Cloudtail and wanting to avenge his mother. But looking at that one scene from Twilight, this isn't really new for him, he's just being aggressive about it now and I wouldn't be surprised if he just picked up on a few things from training with Dustpelt.
And Mousefur is, well, Mousefur, while Cloudtail only seems to be joining in because he thinks Firestar is being a hypocrite.
Not to mention that Firestar and Sandstorm left without telling anyone except Graystripe and Cinderpelt the true reason why; even they thought that Firestar was going to go back before he told them about SkyClan. Of course ThunderClan is going to believe that he left to go back to his old life because to them, where else would he go? The jabs are annoying and hopefully it won't be like this for the entire past portion of the book, but I understand why.
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Post by alphayamergo on Jul 21, 2020 19:04:34 GMT -5
Him losing faith in Firestar isn't particularly OOC - even pre-break up he had a casually racist attitude towards kittypets in the Clan. Him being so aggressive over it is what feels off, to me. Cloudtail's a bigger issue in the trio of troublemakers. Mousefur has had the role of ThunderClan's resident kittypet hater for a while, but Cloudtail? If he was going to be annoyed about Firestar leaving, it'd be because he left his Clan on the advice of a bunch of fairytales.
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Post by Cloverƒall on Jul 22, 2020 13:12:27 GMT -5
It is character butchering, but imo, the most realistic. Ashfur being a completely sweet and innocent guy before, and then automatically turning insane after a breakup is highly doubtful. Heck, this guy was close friends with Spiderleg and Thornclaw, and his brother-in-law/mentor was Dustpelt. All three of them aren't exactly the most...likeable cats in TC.
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Post by FlameTail on Jul 22, 2020 13:56:10 GMT -5
Is Greystripes vow out now?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 13:59:14 GMT -5
Is Greystripes vow out now? Just the preview, the actual book will be out in September.
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Post by Jaysnow on Jul 22, 2020 14:03:27 GMT -5
I really don't like it. It's character assassination. He wasn't this much of a jerk in FQ/early TNP era. They're obviously just doing it now because "oh he's the main villain for the new arc so he HAS to be portrayed this way for his villainy to make sense". Lame. It would be MUCH cooler if he was portrayed in a more positive light, to make his presence in the current arc a lot more damning. Like how this respectful and kind warrior took such a steep dive into insanity.
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Post by Schrödinger's Gremlin on Jul 22, 2020 14:03:57 GMT -5
Ashfur has always been off to me. Squirrelflight not returning his feelings was just the kicker.
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Jul 22, 2020 14:09:08 GMT -5
I really don't like it. It's character assassination. He wasn't this much of a jerk in FQ/early TNP era. They're obviously just doing it now because "oh he's the main villain for the new arc so he HAS to be portrayed this way for his villainy to make sense". Lame. It would be MUCH cooler if he was portrayed in a more positive light, to make his presence in the current arc a lot more damning. Like how this respectful and kind warrior took such a steep dive into insanity. Ikr he even gave Brambleclaw a friendly nod at one point in early TNP
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Post by Jaysnow on Jul 22, 2020 14:10:39 GMT -5
I really don't like it. It's character assassination. He wasn't this much of a jerk in FQ/early TNP era. They're obviously just doing it now because "oh he's the main villain for the new arc so he HAS to be portrayed this way for his villainy to make sense". Lame. It would be MUCH cooler if he was portrayed in a more positive light, to make his presence in the current arc a lot more damning. Like how this respectful and kind warrior took such a steep dive into insanity. Ikr he even have Brambleclaw a friendly nod at one point in early TNP My point exactly. He wasn't this openly a jerk until post Squirrelflight drama.
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Post by Redstorm on Jul 22, 2020 14:26:42 GMT -5
I don't think it's out of character as much as the older books didn't portray Ashfur's personality strongly until he started "talking" with Squirrelflight. Who knows he could've just said all that when Firestar wasn't around.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 22, 2020 14:58:01 GMT -5
Alright, let's look at Ashfur's characterization in these books pre-Squirrelflight drama to see this supposed warping in character.
In Rising Storm, we see he is close to Cloudtail and thinks highly of Cloudtail's loyalty, and so was deeply hurt when Cloudtail left.
In A Dangerous Path, we see he is determined to avenge his mother.
In the Darkest Hour we see that he is brave. We also get this line in reference to Bloodclan
Ashfur doesn't do much of note in Firestar's Quest beyond show again that he is brave and bold.
He has no characterization in Midnight worthy of note.
In Moonrise, we see that Ashfur is shocked that Firestar wants to talk to Windclan over a prey stealing issue rather than going after them for a fight(sounds very familiar to GV). He also makes cracks about Cloudtail leaving on purpose
Twice, in fact
In Dawn, we see Ashfur is paranoid of Hawkfrost posing a threat to the forest due to his blood line and upset about having to help him and Riverclan. He also hisses at Sasha for no particular reason, save perhaps her relation to Tigerstar.
He says nothing important in Starlight but is closer to Squirrelflight.
In Twilight, we see he is close to Squirrelflight and deeply cares about her. He also seems to have learned from earlier on and now agrees with Firestar that picking a fight with Windclan over everything isn't the best idea. He also has a playful side with Squirrelflight and trusts Brambleclaw's loyalty at first. Ashfur slowly becomes overprotective over the course of the book, jumping to her defense when she doesn't want it. He then drops this gem of a line which gets Squirrelflight mad at him And of course, he is brave and distinguished in the badger battle.
In Sunset, Ashfur's jealous streaks show as he sees Brambleclaw with Squirrelflight. Cats begin to feel awkward around him due to the anger they see in his looks. His immediate response to having Squirrelflight break up with him is to rant about how Brambleclaw can't be trusted due to his parents. . He also thinks that Leafpool is conspiring with Brambleclaw with her signs to the point of shouting about it in a clan meeting and sets up the fox trap, and the rest is history.
So, what have we learned? Ashfur has always had an axe to grind against kittypets, he has always believed that bloodlines are important, and before going to the lake it seems like he also preferred to fight Windclan over prey stealing than not. In conclusion, the dialogue presented in Graystripe's Vow is not a character assassination in the least. In fact, it is remarkably consistent with his earlier dialogue, to a degree most characters cannot claim. He makes many similar complaints, to such a degree that I am certain his earlier books were reread in order to get his characterization down correctly.
I'd like to see what evidence people have that his character was so markedly different prior to the Squirrelflight drama, because after having reread every scene prior to it it actually comes off as remarkably similar. Character assassination? No, this is just the rose tinted glasses being taken off. He does not act or say anything different from what he might usually say, it's just that now it's colored by the context that he will later on grow to become such a monster.
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Post by Jaysnow on Jul 22, 2020 15:00:04 GMT -5
Alright, let's look at Ashfur's characterization in these books pre-Squirrelflight drama to see this supposed warping in character. In Rising Storm, we see he is close to Cloudtail and thinks highly of Cloudtail's loyalty, and so was deeply hurt when Cloudtail left. In A Dangerous Path, we see he is determined to avenge his mother. In the Darkest Hour we see that he is brave. We also get this line in reference to Bloodclan Ashfur doesn't do much of note in Firestar's Quest beyond show again that he is brave and bold. He has no characterization in Midnight worthy of note. In Moonrise, we see that Ashfur is shocked that Firestar wants to talk to Windclan over a prey stealing issue rather than going after them for a fight(sounds very familiar to GV). He also makes cracks about Cloudtail leaving on purpose Twice, in fact
In Dawn, we see Ashfur is paranoid of Hawkfrost posing a threat to the forest and upset about having to help him and Riverclan. He also hisses at Sasha for no particular reason. He says nothing important in Starlight but is closer to Squirrelflight. In Twilight, we see he is close to Squirrelflight and deeply cares about her. He also seems to have learned from earlier on and now agrees with Firestar that picking a fight with Windclan over everything isn't the best idea. He also has a playful side with Squirrelflight and trusts Brambleclaw's loyalty at first. Ashfur slowly becomes overprotective over the course of the book, jumping to her defense when she doesn't want it. He then drops this gem of a line which gets Squirrelflight mad at him And of course, he is brave and distinguished in the badger battle. In Sunset, Ashfur's jealous streaks show as he sees Brambleclaw with Squirrelflight. Cats begin to feel awkward around him due to the anger they see in his looks. His immediate response to having Squirrelflight break up with him is to rant about how Brambleclaw can't be trusted due to his parents. . He also thinks that Leafpool is conspiring with Brambleclaw with her signs to the point of shouting about it in a clan meeting and sets up the fox trap, and the rest is history. So, what have we learned? Ashfur has always had an axe to grind against kittypets, he has always believed that bloodlines are important, and before going to the lake it seems like he also preferred to fight Windclan over prey stealing than not. In conclusion, the dialogue presented in Graystripe's Vow is not a character assassination in the least. In fact, it is remarkably consistent with his earlier dialogue, to a degree most characters cannot claim. He makes many similar complaints, to such a degree that I am certain his earlier books were reread in order to get his characterization down correctly. I'd like to see what evidence people have that his character was so markedly different prior to the Squirrelflight drama, because after having reread every scene prior to it it actually comes off as remarkably similar. Character assassination? No, this is just the rose tinted glasses being taken off. He does not act or say anything different from what he might usually say, it's just that now it's colored by the context that he will later on grow to become such a monster. Oh, neat. Thanks for providing those quotes. It's been a while since I've read TNP so I was just going off what I remember. Solid post.
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Jul 22, 2020 15:04:25 GMT -5
Alright, let's look at Ashfur's characterization in these books pre-Squirrelflight drama to see this supposed warping in character. In Rising Storm, we see he is close to Cloudtail and thinks highly of Cloudtail's loyalty, and so was deeply hurt when Cloudtail left. In A Dangerous Path, we see he is determined to avenge his mother. In the Darkest Hour we see that he is brave. We also get this line in reference to Bloodclan Ashfur doesn't do much of note in Firestar's Quest beyond show again that he is brave and bold. He has no characterization in Midnight worthy of note. In Moonrise, we see that Ashfur is shocked that Firestar wants to talk to Windclan over a prey stealing issue rather than going after them for a fight(sounds very familiar to GV). He also makes cracks about Cloudtail leaving on purpose Twice, in fact
In Dawn, we see Ashfur is paranoid of Hawkfrost posing a threat to the forest due to his blood line and upset about having to help him and Riverclan. He also hisses at Sasha for no particular reason, save perhaps her relation to Tigerstar. He says nothing important in Starlight but is closer to Squirrelflight. In Twilight, we see he is close to Squirrelflight and deeply cares about her. He also seems to have learned from earlier on and now agrees with Firestar that picking a fight with Windclan over everything isn't the best idea. He also has a playful side with Squirrelflight and trusts Brambleclaw's loyalty at first. Ashfur slowly becomes overprotective over the course of the book, jumping to her defense when she doesn't want it. He then drops this gem of a line which gets Squirrelflight mad at him And of course, he is brave and distinguished in the badger battle. In Sunset, Ashfur's jealous streaks show as he sees Brambleclaw with Squirrelflight. Cats begin to feel awkward around him due to the anger they see in his looks. His immediate response to having Squirrelflight break up with him is to rant about how Brambleclaw can't be trusted due to his parents. . He also thinks that Leafpool is conspiring with Brambleclaw with her signs to the point of shouting about it in a clan meeting and sets up the fox trap, and the rest is history. So, what have we learned? Ashfur has always had an axe to grind against kittypets, he has always believed that bloodlines are important, and before going to the lake it seems like he also preferred to fight Windclan over prey stealing than not. In conclusion, the dialogue presented in Graystripe's Vow is not a character assassination in the least. In fact, it is remarkably consistent with his earlier dialogue, to a degree most characters cannot claim. He makes many similar complaints, to such a degree that I am certain his earlier books were reread in order to get his characterization down correctly. I'd like to see what evidence people have that his character was so markedly different prior to the Squirrelflight drama, because after having reread every scene prior to it it actually comes off as remarkably similar. Character assassination? No, this is just the rose tinted glasses being taken off. He does not act or say anything different from what he might usually say, it's just that now it's colored by the context that he will later on grow to become such a monster. He was at least more respectful towards Firestar, like in either Starlight or Twilight, he praised him at a Gathering for "certainly knowing the new territory" While he was dating Squirrelflight, he also continuously defended Brambleclaw and his friendship w Hawkfrost when Squirrelflight was having a quarrel w him
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 22, 2020 15:09:53 GMT -5
Alright, let's look at Ashfur's characterization in these books pre-Squirrelflight drama to see this supposed warping in character. In Rising Storm, we see he is close to Cloudtail and thinks highly of Cloudtail's loyalty, and so was deeply hurt when Cloudtail left. In A Dangerous Path, we see he is determined to avenge his mother. In the Darkest Hour we see that he is brave. We also get this line in reference to Bloodclan Ashfur doesn't do much of note in Firestar's Quest beyond show again that he is brave and bold. He has no characterization in Midnight worthy of note. In Moonrise, we see that Ashfur is shocked that Firestar wants to talk to Windclan over a prey stealing issue rather than going after them for a fight(sounds very familiar to GV). He also makes cracks about Cloudtail leaving on purpose Twice, in fact
In Dawn, we see Ashfur is paranoid of Hawkfrost posing a threat to the forest due to his blood line and upset about having to help him and Riverclan. He also hisses at Sasha for no particular reason, save perhaps her relation to Tigerstar. He says nothing important in Starlight but is closer to Squirrelflight. In Twilight, we see he is close to Squirrelflight and deeply cares about her. He also seems to have learned from earlier on and now agrees with Firestar that picking a fight with Windclan over everything isn't the best idea. He also has a playful side with Squirrelflight and trusts Brambleclaw's loyalty at first. Ashfur slowly becomes overprotective over the course of the book, jumping to her defense when she doesn't want it. He then drops this gem of a line which gets Squirrelflight mad at him And of course, he is brave and distinguished in the badger battle. In Sunset, Ashfur's jealous streaks show as he sees Brambleclaw with Squirrelflight. Cats begin to feel awkward around him due to the anger they see in his looks. His immediate response to having Squirrelflight break up with him is to rant about how Brambleclaw can't be trusted due to his parents. . He also thinks that Leafpool is conspiring with Brambleclaw with her signs to the point of shouting about it in a clan meeting and sets up the fox trap, and the rest is history. So, what have we learned? Ashfur has always had an axe to grind against kittypets, he has always believed that bloodlines are important, and before going to the lake it seems like he also preferred to fight Windclan over prey stealing than not. In conclusion, the dialogue presented in Graystripe's Vow is not a character assassination in the least. In fact, it is remarkably consistent with his earlier dialogue, to a degree most characters cannot claim. He makes many similar complaints, to such a degree that I am certain his earlier books were reread in order to get his characterization down correctly. I'd like to see what evidence people have that his character was so markedly different prior to the Squirrelflight drama, because after having reread every scene prior to it it actually comes off as remarkably similar. Character assassination? No, this is just the rose tinted glasses being taken off. He does not act or say anything different from what he might usually say, it's just that now it's colored by the context that he will later on grow to become such a monster. He was at least more respectful towards Firestar, like in either Starlight or Twilight, he praised him at a Gathering for "certainly knowing the new territory" To be fair, by this point he was already trying to put the moves on Squirrelflight and was near her. I'd take some of his dialogue in that mindset with a grain of salt as it's clear that he's trying to cozy up to her. Moreover, this is also at a time when Firestar is making good negotiations over territory as opposed to leaving the clan out of the blue, and we know Ashfur can get nasty and bitter when it comes to grudges. It's possible that he was angrier with Firestar back in FQ and was more disposed to be mellow about him when he's being useful to Thunderclan.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 22, 2020 15:09:58 GMT -5
It is character butchering, but imo, the most realistic. Ashfur being a completely sweet and innocent guy before, and then automatically turning insane after a breakup is highly doubtful. Heck, this guy was close friends with Spiderleg and Thornclaw, and his brother-in-law/mentor was Dustpelt. All three of them aren't exactly the most...likeable cats in TC. it would make the most sense to me to actually portray him with some sort of need for attention, so it doesn't butcher his character but adds a previously unseen element that enrichens our understanding of why he later went off the deep end.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 15:39:32 GMT -5
fr i never understood people acting like ashfur was only ever sweet and kind and never did or said anything eyebrow raising before pot. i was stunned that ash made that kittypet comment about bloodclan with firestar standing right there
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 22, 2020 15:52:07 GMT -5
vectoring34, thanks for providing these quotes, I very much appreciate it. It's exactly these types of scenes why I'm not all that bothered by Ashfur in GV.
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Post by halogen on Jul 22, 2020 19:11:12 GMT -5
Alright, let's look at Ashfur's characterization in these books pre-Squirrelflight drama to see this supposed warping in character. In Rising Storm, we see he is close to Cloudtail and thinks highly of Cloudtail's loyalty, and so was deeply hurt when Cloudtail left. In A Dangerous Path, we see he is determined to avenge his mother. In the Darkest Hour we see that he is brave. We also get this line in reference to Bloodclan Ashfur doesn't do much of note in Firestar's Quest beyond show again that he is brave and bold. He has no characterization in Midnight worthy of note. In Moonrise, we see that Ashfur is shocked that Firestar wants to talk to Windclan over a prey stealing issue rather than going after them for a fight(sounds very familiar to GV). He also makes cracks about Cloudtail leaving on purpose Twice, in fact
In Dawn, we see Ashfur is paranoid of Hawkfrost posing a threat to the forest due to his blood line and upset about having to help him and Riverclan. He also hisses at Sasha for no particular reason, save perhaps her relation to Tigerstar. He says nothing important in Starlight but is closer to Squirrelflight. In Twilight, we see he is close to Squirrelflight and deeply cares about her. He also seems to have learned from earlier on and now agrees with Firestar that picking a fight with Windclan over everything isn't the best idea. He also has a playful side with Squirrelflight and trusts Brambleclaw's loyalty at first. Ashfur slowly becomes overprotective over the course of the book, jumping to her defense when she doesn't want it. He then drops this gem of a line which gets Squirrelflight mad at him And of course, he is brave and distinguished in the badger battle. In Sunset, Ashfur's jealous streaks show as he sees Brambleclaw with Squirrelflight. Cats begin to feel awkward around him due to the anger they see in his looks. His immediate response to having Squirrelflight break up with him is to rant about how Brambleclaw can't be trusted due to his parents. . He also thinks that Leafpool is conspiring with Brambleclaw with her signs to the point of shouting about it in a clan meeting and sets up the fox trap, and the rest is history. So, what have we learned? Ashfur has always had an axe to grind against kittypets, he has always believed that bloodlines are important, and before going to the lake it seems like he also preferred to fight Windclan over prey stealing than not. In conclusion, the dialogue presented in Graystripe's Vow is not a character assassination in the least. In fact, it is remarkably consistent with his earlier dialogue, to a degree most characters cannot claim. He makes many similar complaints, to such a degree that I am certain his earlier books were reread in order to get his characterization down correctly. I'd like to see what evidence people have that his character was so markedly different prior to the Squirrelflight drama, because after having reread every scene prior to it it actually comes off as remarkably similar. Character assassination? No, this is just the rose tinted glasses being taken off. He does not act or say anything different from what he might usually say, it's just that now it's colored by the context that he will later on grow to become such a monster. I don't mind that they have Ashfur as one of the warriors doubting Firestar, like you said it is completely in character. I just mind that they made him the main one/the one who made the most negative comments and got the most narrative focus, and it seems clear they are choosing to make him the main objector rather than just one of several in the background because of his later role. More to the point, this is just a continuating of a consistent trend in this series, where every villain has to have stereotypical characteristics - they have to be rude, racist against kittypets/other Clans, hate diplomacy and want to go to war with everyone, be disloyal to their own Clan, and want revenge against someone as their underlying motivation. You never see a villain who is murderous and traitorous to their own Clanmates but is always arguing to be nice to other Clans and thinks a kittypet can be a good warrior, or a cat who is murderous in their desire for revenge but follows the code and is generally reasonable when that's not a factor, or a cat who is horrible in a lot of ways but has an ultimately motivation other than wanting revenge on some random cat who wronged them (and/or just wanting power for the sake of it). You sometimes see cats who are horrible to other Clans and racist but won't betray their own, but those cats aren't even treated as villains by the narrative even when the extent of their cruelty would suggest they should be, and if they are treated as villains, they are quickly rewritten so that they are horrible on a personal level too (like Thistleclaw). So yes, Ashfur always had similar views to this, but the fact that they are making this such a focus, compared to in the original books where he was one of several cats who made comments like this and not the most prominent or the most consistently negatively portrayed, seems like they are leaning into this same tired stereotype of there only being one generic villain character with a predetermined set of vices that the authors can write. I also can't help but thinking that this focus is because, since Vicky was overly sympathetic to Ashfur before, the authors were never really writing him as a villain, and this gave him more room to be a unique antagonist because, if they thought of him as a villain, he would get the cliche characterization slapped onto him in an exaggerated a fashion as possible. Now that he is being thought of as a villain, his racism unfriendliness has to be emphasized constantly rather than just being one aspect of his character that isn't given that much focus.
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jul 22, 2020 19:24:27 GMT -5
I think it was perfectly normal, because Ashfur has always been sort of a jerk in my eyes before.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 22, 2020 19:58:16 GMT -5
Alright, let's look at Ashfur's characterization in these books pre-Squirrelflight drama to see this supposed warping in character. In Rising Storm, we see he is close to Cloudtail and thinks highly of Cloudtail's loyalty, and so was deeply hurt when Cloudtail left. In A Dangerous Path, we see he is determined to avenge his mother. In the Darkest Hour we see that he is brave. We also get this line in reference to Bloodclan Ashfur doesn't do much of note in Firestar's Quest beyond show again that he is brave and bold. He has no characterization in Midnight worthy of note. In Moonrise, we see that Ashfur is shocked that Firestar wants to talk to Windclan over a prey stealing issue rather than going after them for a fight(sounds very familiar to GV). He also makes cracks about Cloudtail leaving on purpose Twice, in fact
In Dawn, we see Ashfur is paranoid of Hawkfrost posing a threat to the forest due to his blood line and upset about having to help him and Riverclan. He also hisses at Sasha for no particular reason, save perhaps her relation to Tigerstar. He says nothing important in Starlight but is closer to Squirrelflight. In Twilight, we see he is close to Squirrelflight and deeply cares about her. He also seems to have learned from earlier on and now agrees with Firestar that picking a fight with Windclan over everything isn't the best idea. He also has a playful side with Squirrelflight and trusts Brambleclaw's loyalty at first. Ashfur slowly becomes overprotective over the course of the book, jumping to her defense when she doesn't want it. He then drops this gem of a line which gets Squirrelflight mad at him And of course, he is brave and distinguished in the badger battle. In Sunset, Ashfur's jealous streaks show as he sees Brambleclaw with Squirrelflight. Cats begin to feel awkward around him due to the anger they see in his looks. His immediate response to having Squirrelflight break up with him is to rant about how Brambleclaw can't be trusted due to his parents. . He also thinks that Leafpool is conspiring with Brambleclaw with her signs to the point of shouting about it in a clan meeting and sets up the fox trap, and the rest is history. So, what have we learned? Ashfur has always had an axe to grind against kittypets, he has always believed that bloodlines are important, and before going to the lake it seems like he also preferred to fight Windclan over prey stealing than not. In conclusion, the dialogue presented in Graystripe's Vow is not a character assassination in the least. In fact, it is remarkably consistent with his earlier dialogue, to a degree most characters cannot claim. He makes many similar complaints, to such a degree that I am certain his earlier books were reread in order to get his characterization down correctly. I'd like to see what evidence people have that his character was so markedly different prior to the Squirrelflight drama, because after having reread every scene prior to it it actually comes off as remarkably similar. Character assassination? No, this is just the rose tinted glasses being taken off. He does not act or say anything different from what he might usually say, it's just that now it's colored by the context that he will later on grow to become such a monster. I don't mind that they have Ashfur as one of the warriors doubting Firestar, like you said it is completely in character. I just mind that they made him the main one/the one who made the most negative comments and got the most narrative focus, and it seems clear they are choosing to make him the main objector rather than just one of several in the background because of his later role. More to the point, this is just a continuating of a consistent trend in this series, where every villain has to have stereotypical characteristics - they have to be rude, racist against kittypets/other Clans, hate diplomacy and want to go to war with everyone, be disloyal to their own Clan, and want revenge against someone as their underlying motivation. You never see a villain who is murderous and traitorous to their own Clanmates but is always arguing to be nice to other Clans and thinks a kittypet can be a good warrior, or a cat who is murderous in their desire for revenge but follows the code and is generally reasonable when that's not a factor, or a cat who is horrible in a lot of ways but has an ultimately motivation other than wanting revenge on some random cat who wronged them (and/or just wanting power for the sake of it). You sometimes see cats who are horrible to other Clans and racist but won't betray their own, but those cats aren't even treated as villains by the narrative even when the extent of their cruelty would suggest they should be, and if they are treated as villains, they are quickly rewritten so that they are horrible on a personal level too (like Thistleclaw). So yes, Ashfur always had similar views to this, but the fact that they are making this such a focus, compared to in the original books where he was one of several cats who made comments like this and not the most prominent or the most consistently negatively portrayed, seems like they are leaning into this same tired stereotype of there only being one generic villain character with a predetermined set of vices that the authors can write. I also can't help but thinking that this focus is because, since Vicky was overly sympathetic to Ashfur before, the authors were never really writing him as a villain, and this gave him more room to be a unique antagonist because, if they thought of him as a villain, he would get the cliche characterization slapped onto him in an exaggerated a fashion as possible. Now that he is being thought of as a villain, his racism unfriendliness has to be emphasized constantly rather than just being one aspect of his character that isn't given that much focus. He is the most prominent out of the three only in so far as he has an idea in mind for a deputy replacement, but he isn't particularly more intense than Mousefur or Cloudtail when it comes to derogatory statements during that scene at all. In fact, the scene goes by with either him echoing them or them echoing him, it's basically a pair of statements every time except when Ashfur is trying to prop up Dustpelt as a deputy. Trying to prop up Dustpelt as a deputy is his one unique trait there, I don't think his racism is being emphasized at all since every time that comes up it's with an echo or as an echo with Cloudtail and Mousefur.
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Jul 22, 2020 20:01:57 GMT -5
I don't mind that they have Ashfur as one of the warriors doubting Firestar, like you said it is completely in character. I just mind that they made him the main one/the one who made the most negative comments and got the most narrative focus, and it seems clear they are choosing to make him the main objector rather than just one of several in the background because of his later role. More to the point, this is just a continuating of a consistent trend in this series, where every villain has to have stereotypical characteristics - they have to be rude, racist against kittypets/other Clans, hate diplomacy and want to go to war with everyone, be disloyal to their own Clan, and want revenge against someone as their underlying motivation. You never see a villain who is murderous and traitorous to their own Clanmates but is always arguing to be nice to other Clans and thinks a kittypet can be a good warrior, or a cat who is murderous in their desire for revenge but follows the code and is generally reasonable when that's not a factor, or a cat who is horrible in a lot of ways but has an ultimately motivation other than wanting revenge on some random cat who wronged them (and/or just wanting power for the sake of it). You sometimes see cats who are horrible to other Clans and racist but won't betray their own, but those cats aren't even treated as villains by the narrative even when the extent of their cruelty would suggest they should be, and if they are treated as villains, they are quickly rewritten so that they are horrible on a personal level too (like Thistleclaw). So yes, Ashfur always had similar views to this, but the fact that they are making this such a focus, compared to in the original books where he was one of several cats who made comments like this and not the most prominent or the most consistently negatively portrayed, seems like they are leaning into this same tired stereotype of there only being one generic villain character with a predetermined set of vices that the authors can write. I also can't help but thinking that this focus is because, since Vicky was overly sympathetic to Ashfur before, the authors were never really writing him as a villain, and this gave him more room to be a unique antagonist because, if they thought of him as a villain, he would get the cliche characterization slapped onto him in an exaggerated a fashion as possible. Now that he is being thought of as a villain, his racism unfriendliness has to be emphasized constantly rather than just being one aspect of his character that isn't given that much focus. He is the most prominent out of the three only in so far as he has an idea in mind for a deputy replacement, but he isn't particularly more intense than Mousefur or Cloudtail when it comes to derogatory statements during that scene at all. In fact, the scene goes by with either him echoing them or them echoing him, it's basically a pair of statements every time except when Ashfur is trying to prop up Dustpelt as a deputy. Trying to prop up Dustpelt as a deputy is his one unique trait there, I don't think his racism is being emphasized at all since every time that comes up it's with an echo or as an echo with Cloudtail and Mousefur. “Once a kittypet, always a kittypet” was a bit too derogatory, I’m surprised Cloudtail didn’t react to it.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 22, 2020 20:10:48 GMT -5
He is the most prominent out of the three only in so far as he has an idea in mind for a deputy replacement, but he isn't particularly more intense than Mousefur or Cloudtail when it comes to derogatory statements during that scene at all. In fact, the scene goes by with either him echoing them or them echoing him, it's basically a pair of statements every time except when Ashfur is trying to prop up Dustpelt as a deputy. Trying to prop up Dustpelt as a deputy is his one unique trait there, I don't think his racism is being emphasized at all since every time that comes up it's with an echo or as an echo with Cloudtail and Mousefur. “Once a kittypet, always a kittypet” was a bit too derogatory, I’m surprised Cloudtail didn’t react to it. It's near enough the same thing Ashfur said about Cloudtail when he had been kidnapped. Cloudtail not reacting is a little strange though, yes. At the same time, he is probably salty about thinking Firestar is off doing that after scolding him for the same.
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