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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 22, 2020 15:14:05 GMT -5
Note: I may have repeated some things in this vent/essay type thing. Apologies in advanced for how weird its written
Read the whole thing before you pass judgement on this post. Thank you.
Let me start by saying that all these problems stem from Power of Three. Because the writers couldn’t think of a power for Hollyleaf, they stalled the prophecy arc and made Power of Three about…nothing. Nothing really happened that advanced the plot aside from revealing the original three’s parentage and ruining Hollyleaf by getting rid of her altogether and replacing her.
Even in Power of Three, the protagonists weren’t the focus when it came to the antagonists of that entire arc. Sol was dealt with by the original three’s help, sure, but the original three weren’t Sol’s targets, and there was no personal grudge for them. Onestar’s personal grudge was with Firestar, not the original three—and yes I am considering Onestar one of the antagonists for the Eclipse battle. Breezepaw/pelt isn’t a main antagonist in Power of Three. He’s more of a personal antagonist for them instead of one that does outer world damage like Sol or Onestar (what I mean, Breezepelt is a personal antagonist for them in Power of Three, and he only causes emotional/psychological damage, not physical damage). And then the last one is Ashfur. And who is Ashfur’s personal grudge with? Squirrelflight. Even though the original three were involved in the fire scene, it was still focused on Squirrelfligth the most.
So even back then, the focus was mostly on Squirrelflight. She got severely injured in the Eclipse battle. She was Ashfur’s target in Long Shadows. And in Omen of the Stars, he is dead, and we got a break from Squirrelflight being the focus. But even then the problems from Power of Three leaked into Omen of the Stars due to Dvoewing being a horrible replacement for Hollyleaf—the writers choosing to focus on Dovewing’s love life and sister problems rather than focusing on the prophecy and her powers. If Dovewing was supposed to replace Hollyleaf, why didn’t they make her powers and role in the actual prophecy and final battle more important?
And once again, Squirrelflight is given focus when she shouldn’t. In Squirrelfligth’s Hope, she gets to live despite overstaying her welcome much like Leafpool. Say what you will about Leafpool, but she was ready to die and be in peace, where Squirrelflight wasn’t. The writers’ obsession and bias for Squirrelflight extends to this because they only made her live so that the imposter, Ashfur, can make her the focus in the next new arc.
Why is Squirrelflight the focus once again? Why does she need to be the focus? She should have died alongside Leafpool and let TBC protagonists have their time to shine. The villains don’t have a personal connection to the TBC protagonists. Firestar and Tigerstar in the original arc had a well built personal connection. TNP had Brambleclaw and Hawkfrost be half brothers and have a personal connection that way. And yet Power of Three fails because the original three aren’t directly connected to Ashfur, but only through Squirrelflight. Then in Omen of the Stars, Dovewing didn’t do anything important, Jayfeather and Lionblaze didn’t deal with any personal grudges—arguably, Lionblaze and Hollyleaf dealing with Breezepelt counts as a personal connection between protagonists and antagonists. A Vision of Shadows renders Alderheart and Sparkpelt unnecessary. Violetshine and Twigbranch don’t have personal connections to the antagonists. Needletail and Onestar had connections to Darktail. And the rest of the books, I can’t speak of since I didn’t read them and don’t bother to remember the spoilers about what happens once Darktail dies because he was supposed to be the main antagonist but didn’t last all 6 books.
So in TBC, why is the focus back on Squirrelflight? The focus being put back on Squirrelflight instead of Rootspring, Bristlefrost, and Shadowsight is quite insulting. Rootspring’s only connection is through seeing Bramblestar’s ghost. Bristlefrost is totally unnecessary, since all she does I give Thunderclan POV because of the imposter. All Bristlefrost does is kiss up to the imposter and nothing more. At least Shadowsight is involved with the ghosts as well, and was the reason behind Bramblestar being possessed. But what do any of them have to do with the imposter? If we were to assume Ashfur is the imposter, he has no tie to any of the protagonists. And once again, the main villain (if the imposter is working alone) is only tied to Squirrelflight, and at this point, it’s been YEARS and ARCS since Squirrelflight should have been important.
Why are the writers so obsessed with keeping Squirrelflight relevant and important? She’s incredibly old by now and she shouldn’t have overstayed her welcome in the spotlight like this. Lionblaze was boring, so he fit right in with becoming a background cat after his time in the spotlight. Jayfeather’s a medicine cat, same as Alderheart, of course those two former protagonists would be relevant. Dovewing is Shadowsight’s mother, so she has an excuse to be somewhat relevant sometimes. Ivypool is Bristlefrost’s mother, but she’s not as relevant as Dovewing when it comes to being involved with the plot. But yet Squirrelflight is the only one the imposter is focusing one.
The imposter being Ashfur ruins the TBC protagonists because none of the protagonists have a personal connection to the antagonist. As seen with the first 2 arcs, villains with direct ties to the protagonists make the better stories. Firestar vs Tigerstar in the original arc. Even though Firestar didn’t get to kill him, the story was still about them being opposing forces until Bloodclan came along. Hawkfrost vs Brambleclaw is an easy one. They’re half-brothers and therefore their conflict is both inner world and outer world—personal and professional.
Power of Three is the downfall of warriors. Sure, I love the characters in it, mainly Jayfeather and Hollyleaf, but it is still the worst arc. Because of Hollyleaf not getting powers, the rest of the arc stalled and didn’t advance the prophecy arc at all. Because of no real plot or antagonist, they brought back Ashfur and Squirrelflight’s feud, making the ending of the series more about Squirrelflight than about the original three. This carries into Omen of the Stars because with Hollyleaf being replaced, they failed with making Dovewing as good of a character/protagonist, so instead, Dovewing’s POV was mostly about romance drama and sister problems, nothing about her powers or the prophecy at all. Ivypool did more, but she is still as bad as Dovewing and in the end, and didn’t amount to anything that big. And after years of Squirrelflight and Leafpool pity parties, Squirrelflight getting everything she ever wanted, she’s the focus AGAIN because she got to live in her SE despite her wounds, and is made relevant because of the imposter.
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Post by Fernstep on May 22, 2020 15:24:11 GMT -5
I would argue the arc's done a more than good job creating personal connections between the protagonists and Ashfur now. Yes, his most tense relationship is with Squirrelflight and always will be, but the arc has done its due diligence to set up ways that the protagonists are connected to the plot and its villain. Shadowsight was Ashfur's primary tool for carrying out his plans, and now feels a sense of personal stake in making things right because of how he was manipulated. Rootspring is the least connected to Ashfur, but fits in fine with the rest of the plot due to his unique powers making him critical important to stopping him. And Bristlefrost, of course, was the imposter's closest confidant and was more privy to his plottings than any other of the rebels.
It would be great to have a Squirrelflight PoV in this arc and get her personal tension with Ashfur on full display again. But Warriors being what it is, that was never going to happen, and all things considered I'd say we've gotten some really well worked-out protagonist arcs that give our new characters plenty of reason to care about Ashfur and feel impacted by him.
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on May 22, 2020 15:30:03 GMT -5
I would argue the arc's done a more than good job creating personal connections between the protagonists and Ashfur now. Yes, his most tense relationship is with Squirrelflight and always will be, but the arc has done its due diligence to set up ways that the protagonists are connected to the plot and its villain. Shadowsight was Ashfur's primary tool for carrying out his plans, and now feels a sense of personal stake in making things right because of how he was manipulated. Rootspring is the least connected to Ashfur, but fits in fine with the rest of the plot due to his unique powers making him critical important to stopping him. And Bristlefrost, of course, was the imposter's closest confidant and was more privy to his plottings than any other of the rebels. It would be great to have a Squirrelflight PoV in this arc and get her personal tension with Ashfur on full display again. But Warriors being what it is, that was never going to happen, and all things considered I'd say we've gotten some really well worked-out protagonist arcs that give our new characters plenty of reason to care about Ashfur and feel impacted by him. We're definitely getting Squirrel POV in DW and TPONS
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Post by Fernstep on May 22, 2020 15:33:11 GMT -5
I would argue the arc's done a more than good job creating personal connections between the protagonists and Ashfur now. Yes, his most tense relationship is with Squirrelflight and always will be, but the arc has done its due diligence to set up ways that the protagonists are connected to the plot and its villain. Shadowsight was Ashfur's primary tool for carrying out his plans, and now feels a sense of personal stake in making things right because of how he was manipulated. Rootspring is the least connected to Ashfur, but fits in fine with the rest of the plot due to his unique powers making him critical important to stopping him. And Bristlefrost, of course, was the imposter's closest confidant and was more privy to his plottings than any other of the rebels. It would be great to have a Squirrelflight PoV in this arc and get her personal tension with Ashfur on full display again. But Warriors being what it is, that was never going to happen, and all things considered I'd say we've gotten some really well worked-out protagonist arcs that give our new characters plenty of reason to care about Ashfur and feel impacted by him. We're definitely getting Squirrel POV in DW and TPONS I wouldn't be so sure. That was a common theory when the DW cover and blurb were first released, but if anything I think TPONS makes it much less likely we'll get anything like that—Squirrelflight being "missing" doesn't work so well if the readers can see where she is.
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Post by kinkajou on May 22, 2020 15:37:40 GMT -5
I'm TIRED of Squirrelflight and the rest of the TNP cast too, but I am glad Ashfur is getting an actual conclusion besides "he only loved too much and is all good now lol" so I don't really mind. I really hope there isn't a Squilf PoVs though, but I really think there will be, at least in DW........It would be SO perfect if she died at the end of this arc (ash-in-bramble and squilf kill each other plzzzz)
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Post by Aku on May 22, 2020 15:40:01 GMT -5
This is why I partly feel Ashfur is a stale and old choice for the imposter. I would much rather we have a villain that really focuses more on the main POV characters and ties them better into the story than being the main POV characters. Ever since POT, main POV characters have been increasingly losing focus as the driving point of the story. Which is arguably a sign of lazy and weak writing.
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on May 22, 2020 15:40:55 GMT -5
We're definitely getting Squirrel POV in DW and TPONS I wouldn't be so sure. That was a common theory when the DW cover and blurb were first released, but if anything I think TPONS makes it much less likely we'll get anything like that—Squirrelflight being "missing" doesn't work so well if the readers can see where she is. I mean she is missing to the Clan cats, doesn't mean she is missing to us. Shadowsight was gone to the Clans in VOS, but the fans saw him
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Post by Skypaw13 on May 22, 2020 15:53:39 GMT -5
I think calling out Po3 as being the "downfall of the series" for things that happened after the arc was written is a little unfair. Yes, Po3's main premise got dragged into OotS (though I would argue that Po3 was still a great arc, it just wasn't what it was intended to be), but then we moved on from it. None of the Leafpool drama was relevant at all in AVoS. We had left it behind. Now, the new arc is rehashing old drama for the sake of a new plot and more money. Why blame Po3 for a later arc's shameless dragging of previous books?
And to clarify, I actually agree with you that the TBC protagonists suck in relation to their plot. I've been saying that since TSiT came out. But Arc 7 being bad is not Arc 3's fault. It's Arc 7's fault.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 22, 2020 16:22:55 GMT -5
Ashfur is the villain for this arc as a result of fan response and a need for plot giving in to fan uproar and "needing a plot" out of nowhere is completely lazy. warriors has never been lazier. and that says something since the most lazy thing they ever did was not give hollyleaf a power and put off the prophecy arc for a new character they then go on to butcher.
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on May 22, 2020 16:37:29 GMT -5
Ashfur is the villain for this arc as a result of fan response and a need for plot giving in to fan uproar and "needing a plot" out of nowhere is completely lazy. warriors has never been lazier. and that says something since the most lazy thing they ever did was not give hollyleaf a power and put off the prophecy arc for a new character they then go on to butcher. Ironically their so-called “lazy” writing is developing into one of the best Warriors arcs, can’t really complain
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Post by kinkajou on May 22, 2020 16:41:05 GMT -5
giving in to fan uproar and "needing a plot" out of nowhere is completely lazy. warriors has never been lazier. and that says something since the most lazy thing they ever did was not give hollyleaf a power and put off the prophecy arc for a new character they then go on to butcher. Ironically their so-called “lazy” writing is developing into one of the best Warriors arcs, can’t really complain And Hollyleaf-without-a-power has one of the best character arcs
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 22, 2020 16:44:36 GMT -5
giving in to fan uproar and "needing a plot" out of nowhere is completely lazy. warriors has never been lazier. and that says something since the most lazy thing they ever did was not give hollyleaf a power and put off the prophecy arc for a new character they then go on to butcher. Ironically their so-called “lazy” writing is developing into one of the best Warriors arcs, can’t really complain it started out great, but like i said (and others on other threads), ashfur being the imposter is lazy. ashfur himself is a lazy villain. i dont get when you claim he was "wasted" or his story was "cut short." the fact is, he never had good motivation to do any of this stuff, and starclan lore keeps contradicting itself over and over, so of course they'll make stuff up to make some loser villain like ashfur so powerful to do all this in TBC. bringing stuff back from years ago could be interesting, but not when it's wasted on dumb villains like ashfur. his motivation sucks, it's pathetic. sure, the other villains just wanted power and nothing else, but thats the core of warrior villains. it's lazy because squirrelflight and all TNP cats should be dead and gone. why should older protags get focus when their stories are long since over? we want the TBC protags to have emotional ties to the villains like protagonists *should.* but like i said in my post, it all comes back to squirrelflight, who i think is highly overrated and should have died alongside leafpool.
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Post by kinkajou on May 22, 2020 16:47:46 GMT -5
Ironically their so-called “lazy” writing is developing into one of the best Warriors arcs, can’t really complain it started out great, but like i said (and others on other threads), ashfur being the imposter is lazy. ashfur himself is a lazy villain. i dont get when you claim he was "wasted" or his story was "cut short." the fact is, he never had good motivation to do any of this stuff, and starclan lore keeps contradicting itself over and over, so of course they'll make stuff up to make some loser villain like ashfur so powerful to do all this in TBC. bringing stuff back from years ago could be interesting, but not when it's wasted on dumb villains like ashfur. his motivation sucks, it's pathetic. sure, the other villains just wanted power and nothing else, but thats the core of warrior villains. it's lazy because squirrelflight and all TNP cats should be dead and gone. why should older protags get focus when their stories are long since over? we want the TBC protags to have emotional ties to the villains like protagonists *should.* but like i said in my post, it all comes back to squirrelflight, who i think is highly overrated and should have died alongside leafpool. Imo Ashfur is a great villain because he's realistic and scary. In fact probably more scary than other villains because he's so real. His story was "cut short" because of the stupid "he only loved too much" thing, I mean, if he went to the Dark Forest in the first place, sure, I could maybe agree although I still think he's still a great villain in this arc, but just putting him in StarClan and saying "lol he was good all along"? I can't get behind that
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 22, 2020 16:50:27 GMT -5
it started out great, but like i said (and others on other threads), ashfur being the imposter is lazy. ashfur himself is a lazy villain. i dont get when you claim he was "wasted" or his story was "cut short." the fact is, he never had good motivation to do any of this stuff, and starclan lore keeps contradicting itself over and over, so of course they'll make stuff up to make some loser villain like ashfur so powerful to do all this in TBC. bringing stuff back from years ago could be interesting, but not when it's wasted on dumb villains like ashfur. his motivation sucks, it's pathetic. sure, the other villains just wanted power and nothing else, but thats the core of warrior villains. it's lazy because squirrelflight and all TNP cats should be dead and gone. why should older protags get focus when their stories are long since over? we want the TBC protags to have emotional ties to the villains like protagonists *should.* but like i said in my post, it all comes back to squirrelflight, who i think is highly overrated and should have died alongside leafpool. Imo Ashfur is a great villain because he's realistic and scary. In fact probably more scary than other villains because he's so real. His story was "cut short" because of the stupid "he only loved too much" thing, I mean, if he went to the Dark Forest in the first place, sure, I could maybe agree although I still think he's still a great villain in this arc, but just putting him in StarClan and saying "lol he was good all along"? I can't get behind that thats the problem. too many fans fixated on this one issue and it caused an entire arc to be written around it just to appease the fans who voiced this problem for years. i am not a fan of writers (no matter what medium, book or film/show) who go out of their way to make stuff up to please fans. it comes off as lazy and not inspired. as someone who doesnt care about ashfur, i was fine moving past it and just letting it go so the series as a whole could move on, but no, the writers are as stuck to the past of TNP as the fans are because ashfur is back again AND so is squirrelflight as the main focus of an antagonist...
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Post by kinkajou on May 22, 2020 17:10:12 GMT -5
Imo Ashfur is a great villain because he's realistic and scary. In fact probably more scary than other villains because he's so real. His story was "cut short" because of the stupid "he only loved too much" thing, I mean, if he went to the Dark Forest in the first place, sure, I could maybe agree although I still think he's still a great villain in this arc, but just putting him in StarClan and saying "lol he was good all along"? I can't get behind that thats the problem. too many fans fixated on this one issue and it caused an entire arc to be written around it just to appease the fans who voiced this problem for years. i am not a fan of writers (no matter what medium, book or film/show) who go out of their way to make stuff up to please fans. it comes off as lazy and not inspired. as someone who doesnt care about ashfur, i was fine moving past it and just letting it go so the series as a whole could move on, but no, the writers are as stuck to the past of TNP as the fans are because ashfur is back again AND so is squirrelflight as the main focus of an antagonist... Guess all we can do at this point is agree to disagree tbh. I just disagree that it wasn't a problem worth addressing
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 22, 2020 18:29:09 GMT -5
tbh, i would have preferred if hollyleaf had dovewing's power. hollyleaf was shown to care about things happening elsewhere, like with windclan and riverclan (especially the part where she had ot break the code to check on willowpaw...despite her being a code lover).
hollyleaf going through a humbling arc would have been better than her random turn around in long shadows/sunrise. imagine her being stuck up about her powers, but she fails to control them and something bad happens. it's her fault. she then has to be humbled by her problems and learn a lesson from it.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on May 23, 2020 3:52:22 GMT -5
I feel like this isn't about Ashfur but more so Squirrelflight hate. She didn't get everything she wanted but that's a dead horse I'm not going to beat with you.
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Lesbian
TigerLily
Thinks too much about Warriors
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Post by TigerLily on May 23, 2020 7:11:44 GMT -5
I think calling out Po3 as being the "downfall of the series" for things that happened after the arc was written is a little unfair. Yes, Po3's main premise got dragged into OotS (though I would argue that Po3 was still a great arc, it just wasn't what it was intended to be), but then we moved on from it. None of the Leafpool drama was relevant at all in AVoS. We had left it behind. Now, the new arc is rehashing old drama for the sake of a new plot and more money. Why blame Po3 for a later arc's shameless dragging of previous books? And to clarify, I actually agree with you that the TBC protagonists suck in relation to their plot. I've been saying that since TSiT came out. But Arc 7 being bad is not Arc 3's fault. It's Arc 7's fault. To be fair, I think what OP meant was that PoT is the beginning of a breakdown in the narrative in warriors that continues through OoTS, AVoS is less bad but still focuses on POV-irrelevant characters like Onestar, and then TBC. Most of the problems in PoT begin in TNP, but aren't really Problems until PoT. This isn't to say PoT is a bad series, but many of the problems with Warriors get accentuated in it and then continued through subsequent arcs. EDIT: what I've been meaning to say and it just occurred to me now is that while some problems narratively don't begin in TNP or PoT, PoT sets a precedent of villains being distanced from the POV characters.
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Lesbian
TigerLily
Thinks too much about Warriors
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Post by TigerLily on May 23, 2020 7:16:54 GMT -5
I wouldn't be so sure. That was a common theory when the DW cover and blurb were first released, but if anything I think TPONS makes it much less likely we'll get anything like that—Squirrelflight being "missing" doesn't work so well if the readers can see where she is. I mean she is missing to the Clan cats, doesn't mean she is missing to us. Shadowsight was gone to the Clans in VOS, but the fans saw him It would definitely make sense to at least get a prologue from her, but Leafpool, Firestar, and other characters have been on covers they weren't POV characters for, so it's unlikely.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 23, 2020 10:30:23 GMT -5
Ashfur has plenty of relation to the TBC protagonists. Bristlefrost worked as his spy and confidante, Shadowsight was his puppet, and Rootspring is the only one capable of seeing his crimes. Were they previously related to him in life? No, but to judge a villain by such a metric is utterly insipid. Tigerstar never knew or cared whatsoever about Rusty until Fireheart started to expose his plans, much like how Ashfur never cared at all about Rootspring until he did the same. Does this make Tigerstar a bad villain? No, it does not.
More to the point, Ashfur doesn't simply come out of nowhere. This arc is RIFE with the idea that the code is flawed and Starclan is imperfect(see Mothwing's dialogue, the romance between Bristle and Root, and quite a few other conversations). Ashfur is practically the icon, the embodiment of this. If the foe is to be the dark side of the code and Starclan, then there is no better villain than Ashfur for it.
Also, I really do wonder what exactly people would prefer for this kind of an arc. Would they rather some completely original villain that nobody knows about? Nothing wrong with original villains, but that doesn't work for sch a personal arc as this one where the threat isn't "I'll hurt you" but rather "I'll hurt the ones you love". In an arc all about examining the clans' history and the code itself, it SHOULD be Ashfur.
Besides, Squirrelflight is almost certain to die by this arc's end, so you'll get your wish.
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Post by Jaysnow on May 23, 2020 11:02:05 GMT -5
I would argue the arc's done a more than good job creating personal connections between the protagonists and Ashfur now. Yes, his most tense relationship is with Squirrelflight and always will be, but the arc has done its due diligence to set up ways that the protagonists are connected to the plot and its villain. Shadowsight was Ashfur's primary tool for carrying out his plans, and now feels a sense of personal stake in making things right because of how he was manipulated. Rootspring is the least connected to Ashfur, but fits in fine with the rest of the plot due to his unique powers making him critical important to stopping him. And Bristlefrost, of course, was the imposter's closest confidant and was more privy to his plottings than any other of the rebels. It would be great to have a Squirrelflight PoV in this arc and get her personal tension with Ashfur on full display again. But Warriors being what it is, that was never going to happen, and all things considered I'd say we've gotten some really well worked-out protagonist arcs that give our new characters plenty of reason to care about Ashfur and feel impacted by him. We're definitely getting Squirrel POV in DW and TPONS You say that like it's a fact when it's not.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 23, 2020 11:15:53 GMT -5
Personally, I think Ashfur is the perfect villain for this and I don't think it's really that stale. He's been written as an amazing villain this whole arc. Why ignore that just because it's a villain that some people didn't want to come back? He's created massive amounts of tension and is a genuinely threatening force because since he became a villain, he's become more and more unwound and now he has literally nothing to lose. He's already dead. And that his motivation is so incredibly petty is what makes it fascinating.
He's getting the treatment he deserved all along.
A lot of people who don't want Ashfur want Hawkfrost or Sol. And I don't get it. Their endings concluded better than Ashfur's. They're MORE stale.
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