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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2020 14:01:55 GMT -5
What is your opinion on leader’s mates being their deputy?
Should mates of the leader be allowed to be the deputy?
Do you think it can cause severe conflict in the relationship between mate and clan?
Do you think it shows favoritism to said cat and doesn’t give anyone else a chance to be deputy?
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 29, 2020 14:09:49 GMT -5
i wish leaders picked deputies that actually have potential and leadership skills in them already. they should look outside of their kin and mates to make it fair.
bramblestar picking squirrelflight was favoritism, bias, etc. because he only gave it to her to show her he trusted her again after their fight in power of three. u can argue squirrelflight has leadership skills, but it's still biased.
leaders picking former apprentices is also a bit biased because they themselves trained them so of course they'll think they're capable because they themselves are capable.
why cant they show background cats with personality have the skills required to be deputy and eventually grow into a leader?
edit: i forgot to add that the excuse "no other cat could have been picked" is really lazy because if the writer actually gave bacjground cats personality and showed them doing and saying more, then that wouldnt be a problem, now would it?
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Post by Cheetahstar on Apr 29, 2020 14:23:03 GMT -5
if med cats can't have kits/mate than why should a leader be allowed to in the first place?
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Post by Hollyfall on Apr 29, 2020 14:25:07 GMT -5
In the cases of Windstar/Gorse Fur or Rowanstar/Tawnypelt it's a functional duo, but in the case of Bramblestar/Squirrelflight it's...not really that effective. Sure, they seemed to work together well enough in AVoS, but in Squirrelflight's Hope all they goddamn do is argue all the time. Sure, a mate is someone a leader can certainly trust, but them in a relationship can cause a whole plethora of problems. Obviously leaders are going to be biased when they choose a deputy though.
I wish the background cats got some sort of development and prove they can be competent deputies. Like Tigerstar choosing Cloverfoot. She was surprise, but she's proven to be a good and effective second in command.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 29, 2020 14:39:25 GMT -5
Rowan/Tawny was a power couple, that was perfectly fine. Mate deputies isn't the problem, the problem is just Bramble and Squirrel both being dysfunctional.
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Apr 29, 2020 14:49:27 GMT -5
I think it's an extremely bad idea to make your mate deputy because of the power dynamic. A deputy and leader can no longer be equals in a relationship because a deputy is the direct subordinate of the leader and has to follow the leader, barring special circumstances. A regular warrior has no say in such affairs, so leaders and warriors can still be equals in their private lives. This is why I think making your mate leader is worse than making your kit leader; your children are already accustomed to following your orders.
That's a little tricky as it can work (Wind and Gorse) and sometimes it's necessary if they are the only option or actually the best choice (arguably Rowan and Tawny). So, I wouldn't say it should be outlawed in code, but I think that it should be noted that it's not recommended.
Squirrelflight's Hope proves that it can cause conflict as all their arguments on clan matters became personal, though part of it was that Squirrelflight and Bramblestar's relationship was turbulent, to begin with.
It's arguably favoritism no matter who a leader chooses as deputy. The only time it wouldn't be favoritism is if the entire clan votes and the leader chooses who they vote for. No leader is immune to bias and it's not like leaders pay heavy attention to every cat in their clan. I do think they should look outside their family for candidates, but they might genuinely think a family member is right for the job, especially since they're more certain of their qualifications. So yes, it's favoritism, however, we don't always know that it doesn't let other cats become deputy. We don't know the other candidates Bramblestar had in mind. In the case of Rowanstar for example, the only cats he trusted were his mate and son as they were the only cats that stayed with him.
I actually think the moonhigh rule is flawed in that it motivates leaders to make shortsighted decisions. Yes, leaders can change their deputies, but it's done so rarely that it's often not a consideration. Of course leaders choose the cats they know personally as they know their capabilities. I think leaders should have more time to choose a deputy as it might give them a chance to observe cats outside their circles, especially since the clans are so big that new leaders can't possibly know the capabilities of other cats. If the leader dies before they receive their lives, the medicine cats can choose a new leader or the clan can simply vote. If anything, it's this rule that doesn't let other cats be deputy because the leaders have to make a decision on the spot, so they choose someone they know they can trust.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Apr 29, 2020 14:50:27 GMT -5
Pairs like RowanTawny and WindGorse were fine, as pointed out
Squirrelflight has great leadership potential, but she clashes with Bramble so it makes it hard
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Post by Skypaw13 on Apr 29, 2020 15:20:21 GMT -5
I don't think it should be outlawed, but it should be stigmatized.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Apr 29, 2020 17:11:58 GMT -5
Honestly, if we allowed medicine cats to have mates and kits, I can see a medicine cat and a leader being mates one day, so with that in mind, I personally have no issue if they both have leadership capabilities.
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Post by wolfcry32 on Apr 29, 2020 17:30:05 GMT -5
The only way I would accept a leader and deputy being mates is if they become mates after the deputy is appointed. And by that I mean well after that point. Like, working together so much is what leads them to getting close.
Otherwise, it's just not a really good tactic.
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Post by Brindlefern on Apr 29, 2020 17:54:31 GMT -5
Leader/Deputy mateships CAN work and Wind/Gorse and Rowan/Tawny have shown that, I think BrambleSquirrel's issue was it had issues to begin with and thus it makes any disagreements they have on a professional standpoint turn personal. He picked her to be deputy because he trusted her yet SqH has him eventually telling her she should have everything run by him first and thus removing her agency for different opinions. They were doomed from the start anyways so it hinders their leader/deputy dynamic even more.
I don't care about bias towards the mate if the mate in question IS a competent cat. if Firestar had chosen Sandstorm for instance as deputy instead in Sunset I really wouldn't mind that, for she was practically his advisor outside Cinderpelt and bounce off one another and communicate and she is a very competent Warrior by that point. They weren't a leader/deputy duo exactly but they worked well enough as is to where if they were I can't see problems coming up if they were one.
Bias/Favoritism is bound to happen with how choosing leadership works unfortunately. The best way to lessen it is to have the clan vote for the next deputy themselves. Ofc there probably WOULD be a case of bias in the clans as well if a character is say, unpopular or popular or something but we'll never know how that would do thanks to the way things are.
Maybe BrambleSquirrel, who have had their arguments be very public in the past (Squirrelflight's Hope *COUGH*, not only in the gathering but the clan itself was so used to their fighting to where Millie asked "Oh are they going at eachother's throats again?" as if it was an EVERYDAY THING) can be used as a good example as to why it can sometimes NOT be a good idea for mates to be leader/deputy, but not have it be heavily outlawed or anything like that, have it be questionable at most maybe.
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