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Post by platinum blond death on Apr 28, 2020 22:49:59 GMT -5
what do you think of them? personally i think the concept is cool, a group of all she-cats, but the methods in which it’s executed just sucks. also screw moonlight, her behavior in tree’s roots was appalling.
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Lesbian
Owl
always writing, never finishing
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Post by Owl on Apr 28, 2020 23:16:12 GMT -5
they're very cool in theory. i didn't read tree's roots, so i don't know what their motivation is for keeping things she-cats only. we've only seen warriors and loners in the books, really, but there seems to be very little distinction between the genders, if you stop and think about it.
of course, there are women only societies and cultures within our world, where young sons are raised normally, and it would have been cool to see moonlight being more...firm and collected when it comes to her treatment and eventual removal of the toms in her group, rather than her being almost cartoonish about it. i almost don't want to read the novella, knowing how she treated tree.
it's a terrible thought, i know, but why didn't she just pick off tree as a newborn if his existence seemed to grate on her so much?
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Post by Hollyfall on Apr 28, 2020 23:18:08 GMT -5
This is almost certainly a very unpopular opinion, but I find them an incredibly abhorrent addition. An interesting concept, but the way they were executed and the way they were portrayed was just terrible. They're kicking out young toms because it's part of their culture? "We've decided that we don't need toms, so we just boot them out". They're...young teenagers at best, and you're kicking them out at six moons old to fend for themselves. The Clans are pretty egalitarian and equal as it is, so I fail to see why they needed to be added. Instead of equality, you're just creating a divide between genders.
Like, in Squirrelflight's Hope, Snow actually just disliked Bramblestar because he was a tom and was the leader. She knew nothing about him, aside from the fact that he was the leader, but immediately disliked him. Moonlight on the other hand was just...awful. She's a bad mother, essentially telling Tree in Tree's Roots that it didn't matter that Stream died because he was a tom, and if toms die, they can just kick out more. She was pretty awful to Tree in both Tree's Roots and Squirrelflight's Hope.
You know if the genders were reversed, this would have caused so much controversy. But empowerment I guess.
tl;dr I don't like them lol
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Apr 28, 2020 23:24:01 GMT -5
they're pretty awful...they don't care for their kits other than the she-cats.
i like that they spread their genes by mating with random toms and letting their own tom kits roam free to do whatever is pretty cool only for spreading the gene pool i guess.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2020 23:24:10 GMT -5
This is almost certainly a very unpopular opinion, but I find them an incredibly abhorrent addition. An interesting concept, but the way they were executed and the way they were portrayed was just terrible. They're kicking out young toms because it's part of their culture? "We've decided that we don't need toms, so we just boot them out". They're...young teenagers at best, and you're kicking them out at six moons old to fend for themselves. The Clans are pretty egalitarian and equal as it is, so I fail to see why they needed to be added. Instead of equality, you're just creating a divide between genders. Like, in Squirrelflight's Hope, Snow actually just disliked Bramblestar because he was a tom and was the leader. She knew nothing about him, aside from the fact that he was the leader, but immediately disliked him. Moonlight on the other hand was just...awful. She's a bad mother, essentially telling Tree in Tree's Roots that it didn't matter that Stream died because he was a tom, and if toms die, they can just kick out more. She was pretty awful to Tree in both Tree's Roots and Squirrelflight's Hope. You know if the genders were reversed, this would have caused so much controversy. But empowerment I guess. tl;dr I don't like them lol everything ive heard makes them sound almost like cartoonish strawmen. the idea of an amazon-like society in warriors is cool on paper but like... the amazons didnt despise men so horribly, at least not in the versions of the stories ive read.
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Post by Brindlefern on Apr 28, 2020 23:47:49 GMT -5
Concept of a Matriarchal cat colony that uses the constellations as tells and with their own religion is good on paper (Especially in the sense of realism in terms of group like, rl cat colonies tend to be matriarchal), but the way its done in Warriors is NOPE. The sisters are sexist as hell to the point they use the traditions excuse as a means to throw out their own children regardless if they're ready or not. Tree's Roots was a very necessary novella as it shows us the Sisters are NOT to be glorified. Especially Moonlight, who was THE most abhorrent out of all of them. I'd say she beats Rainflower in the bad mother department only a little along with the Sisters because of how Tree in the group had NOBODY in the Sisters where Crookedsar at least had family. Tree had NO family there, no love from anyone until he left, he was an absolute nobody there because of how the Sisters are and didn't become a somebody until he left the group. It's sad that I've gotten people saying that the group showing its true colors and showing how bad that ARE in the novella is just another heap of sexism in the books towards mollies when... no??? For some reason it's okay that a whole group of mollies that demean, neglect, and shit on toms because of their gender, yet Dumblr will no DOUBT throw a hissy fit if the roles were reversed. That just shows the double standards of this fandom. Now I almost want to make a fanon outsider group of a similar concept as the Sisters but reverse the gender roles that they have JUST so that I can see the hypocrisy spill.
I feel like if you had me write a group like the sisters, I'd take out the massive sexism, make i so that tom offspring is JUST AS LOVED as FEMALE OFFSPRING, and seeing as it's supposed to be a molly only clan that casts out toms eventually, if I have to keep that, make it so that it's ONLY when the toms in question are actually able to take care of themselves; when they can hunt for themselves, fend for themselves, and see spirits like they supposedly should. If they can't do all that by the time the Claw stars happen? Let them stay until they can, next claw stars and they're still lagging? Wait a little more. Really they wouldn't be so abhorrent if the gender favoritism wasn't at play and they knew how to fricking wait, instead of that BS where Moonlight uses that one instance of a tom staying and the sheer coincidental unfortunate circumstances that happened soon after as a reason for them not to, nor try to INJECT it into their child's head to try and goad them into leaving. God that's literally what Moth Flight did and like Moth Flight it pisses me off because that's not how things work nor bad luck.
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Part-time lurker.
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Post by sorethroat on Apr 29, 2020 0:00:44 GMT -5
Can we have a matriarchal society that doesn’t treat the males terribly please? Why is “reverse sexism” almost always a thing? So no I don’t like the Sisters (or any female-based group that has the female characters dislike male characters STOP IT).
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 29, 2020 0:12:56 GMT -5
Even if we ignore the mountain of sexism problems with the Sisters, their behavior apart from that isn't too great either. Let me paint you a picture of a world where the Sisters go to the mountains rather than the lake.
Suppose that Stoneteller decides to stretch his legs for a little bit and walk around outside of the cave for a while. Suddenly, he is accosted by big, strong-looking rogues who demand that he come with them on pain of injury. Alone, he is forced to go with them. They treat him kindly enough, but he's still a prisoner and he needs to go back home because there could be sick cats, there could be signs to interpret, etc. So one day, Stoneteller tries to sneak off. This is met by them attacking him brutally and wounding him, all while they act sanctimoniously about how he asked for it. They treat his wounds, but he's still a captive with zero regard from them. The rest of the Tribe is sick with worry and comes to beg for his return, but the Sisters shrug it off, saying that they need insurance that the Tribe won't bother them while they have their kits. Desperate, the Tribe leads an attack to try to recover Stoneteller, but they are weak and the Sisters are strong, and they are repulsed quickly. Eventually, the Sisters let Stoneteller go without so much as an apology and Stoneteller returns to the cave, humiliated and now having to tend to a battered clan. Alternatively, because the Sisters are incompetent medics, the wound they inflicted when he tried to escape becomes infected and he dies.
Sounds pretty awful, doesn't it? The only reason the Sisters are sympathetic in Squirrelflight's Hope is because they arrogantly messed with someone who outclassed them as warriors. However, imagine if it had been done to a more vulnerable group of cats. It didn't matter to the Sisters that Leafstar and Squirrelflight were important to their clans, that their families must miss them, that their absence could lead to war. The Sisters didn't show any respect to the locals, any kind of decency or wish for diplomacy. the only reason they let Squirrelflight and Leafstar go was because they realized they were about to catch a tailkicking and had gravely miscalculated their bullying this time, not due to any altruism.
So even if we ignore the sexism, we're left with an arrogant, roaming gang who hold hostages to intimidate their neighbors and aren't shy about using violence on their hostages(incredibly risky since we know that their medicine is subpar).
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Post by kinkajou on Apr 29, 2020 1:54:16 GMT -5
I think their culture is super cool and I really love it, but I agree with Brindlefern that they should wait til toms are ready to leave and with Vectoring that the way they treated Leafstar and Squirrelflight wasn't right
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 29, 2020 2:27:13 GMT -5
Cool in concept as in I like the idea of a group having a sixth sense, but they're horrible in practice. I'm glad Squirrelflight didn't go join them. I wasn't sure how to feel about them in SqH (though the way they were introduced was still horrible), but everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked in Tree's Roots. That novella really made me dislike them, or at least Moonlight. Especially Moonlight.
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Post by wolfcry32 on Apr 29, 2020 6:18:40 GMT -5
Admittedly I haven't read anything with the Sisters in it, but from what I can tell isn't all that great. The idea is interesting- it reminds me a tiny bit of lion prides. They raise their young and then the males go off on their own while the females stay.
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Post by embertuft on Apr 29, 2020 7:02:48 GMT -5
Their traditions are.. interesting to say the least. The concept of them as an idea is interesting, but I think it was portrayed badly in the books. The sexism against the toms was very clear. What I’ve heard about them in Tree’s Roots does not sound pleasant.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Apr 29, 2020 11:42:14 GMT -5
I hated how they treated Squirrelflight and Leafstar, and that they attacked a ShadowClan patrol leaving Strikestone deaf in one ear. Like some people said, they're pretty arrogant. The only thing cool about them is the ability to see ghosts.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Apr 29, 2020 11:43:36 GMT -5
they read like something a really sexist dude would write in a book to strawman feminists honestly
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Post by Brindlefern on Apr 29, 2020 11:45:08 GMT -5
they read like something a really sexist dude would write in a book to strawman feminists honestly More like something modern day Tumblr feminists would write now that I think about it, because The Sisters remind me a LOT of them.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Apr 29, 2020 11:50:43 GMT -5
they read like something a really sexist dude would write in a book to strawman feminists honestly More like something modern day Tumblr feminists would write now that I think about it, because The Sisters remind me a LOT of them. they definitely read like something a terf would write completely unironically as well lmao, but they're kind of the strawman of feminists
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Lesbian
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sorethroat
Part-time lurker.
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Post by sorethroat on Apr 29, 2020 13:39:22 GMT -5
I’m not sure if they’re written like strawman feminists, that’s not doing them justice in the book at all. In Tree’s Roots you get to hear their reasoning and find out they’re practicing a form of “benevolent” misandry rooted in religion, which makes it slightly more nuanced. I really don’t see how we read that and came to the conclusion that they’re Tumblr feminists or written by a guy when the characters are more nuanced than that.
Is Tumblr even relevant anymore?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2020 13:46:20 GMT -5
I’m not sure if they’re written like strawman feminists, that’s not doing them justice in the book at all. In Tree’s Roots you get to hear their reasoning and find out they’re practicing a form of “benevolent” misandry rooted in religion, which makes it slightly more nuanced. I really don’t see how we read that and came to the conclusion that they’re Tumblr feminists or written by a guy when the characters are more nuanced than that. Is Tumblr even relevant anymore? i think the most relevant thing to do with tumblr lately is that verizon sold it for a fraction of what they bought it for, which is genuinely hilarious. that was back in early 2019 tho so,,,,
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Post by Card against Humanity on Apr 29, 2020 15:22:31 GMT -5
I’m not sure if they’re written like strawman feminists, that’s not doing them justice in the book at all. In Tree’s Roots you get to hear their reasoning and find out they’re practicing a form of “benevolent” misandry rooted in religion, which makes it slightly more nuanced. I really don’t see how we read that and came to the conclusion that they’re Tumblr feminists or written by a guy when the characters are more nuanced than that. Is Tumblr even relevant anymore? i havent read trees roots fully yet so i was going off of sqh. and im not saying they WERE written as strawman feminists, that's just what they kind of reminded me of. i doubt the erins would have intentionally written them that way since they usually avoid politics in the books and no lol
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Post by Jaysnow on Apr 29, 2020 15:56:44 GMT -5
This is almost certainly a very unpopular opinion, but I find them an incredibly abhorrent addition. An interesting concept, but the way they were executed and the way they were portrayed was just terrible. They're kicking out young toms because it's part of their culture? "We've decided that we don't need toms, so we just boot them out". They're...young teenagers at best, and you're kicking them out at six moons old to fend for themselves. The Clans are pretty egalitarian and equal as it is, so I fail to see why they needed to be added. Instead of equality, you're just creating a divide between genders. Like, in Squirrelflight's Hope, Snow actually just disliked Bramblestar because he was a tom and was the leader. She knew nothing about him, aside from the fact that he was the leader, but immediately disliked him. Moonlight on the other hand was just...awful. She's a bad mother, essentially telling Tree in Tree's Roots that it didn't matter that Stream died because he was a tom, and if toms die, they can just kick out more. She was pretty awful to Tree in both Tree's Roots and Squirrelflight's Hope. You know if the genders were reversed, this would have caused so much controversy. But empowerment I guess. tl;dr I don't like them lol So much this. The Sisters are the worst group to be added into the books.
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Apr 29, 2020 16:08:31 GMT -5
I'm so glad that Tree's Roots acknowledges them as the monsters that they are and portrays them in such a negative light. I was a little worried after Squirrelflight's Hope that they would be portrayed positively or as "just another group".
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Post by platinum blond death on Apr 29, 2020 23:45:32 GMT -5
I’m not sure if they’re written like strawman feminists, that’s not doing them justice in the book at all. In Tree’s Roots you get to hear their reasoning and find out they’re practicing a form of “benevolent” misandry rooted in religion, which makes it slightly more nuanced. I really don’t see how we read that and came to the conclusion that they’re Tumblr feminists or written by a guy when the characters are more nuanced than that. Is Tumblr even relevant anymore? Personally don’t think they’re Tumblr feminists, but they certainly have sexist elements to them that make me go =/ They always send away their toms, always at the same time, they seem to care less for their toms, and overall seem to have a disdain for toms. They’re not “reeee all men bad” but they’re not good either. Course, Tumblr might find a way to spin the Sisters in a positive light, which would suck. No, a group of all she-cats that force any toms born to them to be sent away and wander at six moons is not good. I honestly think that if the roles were reversed, people would be crying for blood. The Sisters do have an interesting concept, but I cannot accept their society. Their nuance is interesting and fascinating to explore but at the end of the day their misandry is bad and Moonlight’s actions are terrible. Tree’s pov is probably skewed a fair bit but then again, would he lie about his upbringing?
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Post by sorethroat on Apr 30, 2020 8:33:28 GMT -5
I’m not sure if they’re written like strawman feminists, that’s not doing them justice in the book at all. In Tree’s Roots you get to hear their reasoning and find out they’re practicing a form of “benevolent” misandry rooted in religion, which makes it slightly more nuanced. I really don’t see how we read that and came to the conclusion that they’re Tumblr feminists or written by a guy when the characters are more nuanced than that. Is Tumblr even relevant anymore? Personally don’t think they’re Tumblr feminists, but they certainly have sexist elements to them that make me go =/ They always send away their toms, always at the same time, they seem to care less for their toms, and overall seem to have a disdain for toms. They’re not “reeee all men bad” but they’re not good either. Course, Tumblr might find a way to spin the Sisters in a positive light, which would suck. No, a group of all she-cats that force any toms born to them to be sent away and wander at six moons is not good. I honestly think that if the roles were reversed, people would be crying for blood. The Sisters do have an interesting concept, but I cannot accept their society. Their nuance is interesting and fascinating to explore but at the end of the day their misandry is bad and Moonlight’s actions are terrible. Tree’s pov is probably skewed a fair bit but then again, would he lie about his upbringing? Okay I know my position was that I dislike reverse sexism in matriarchal societies and female groups but my reasoning behind it is different to everyone’s here. Obviously they’re not “good” due to being sexist, we don’t need to debate that. But it’s not as if the book is portraying them as good when Tree’s POV shows that he suffered and hated the Sisters for their ways. The Sisters behave like they’re bizarro conservatives but hating men = feminists apparently. And no, very few people would be out for blood when the animal fiction genre has been rife with sexist animal groups. This is not new. Few people complained when the McHeaths were out beating their women in Wolves of Beyond although granted they were evil. In fact the only reason I complained about THAT was because it was cliche to even put them there. I have seen so many fictional animal stories where the animals practiced casual sexism where it doesn’t get questioned either because the readers don’t realize it while they’re reading or they’re influenced because the book writes it positively and doesn’t question anything. I’ve seen readers get confronted by the sexism and then do mental gymnastics for why the female victim is at fault and the male sexist is just a poor wooby. Or my favorite, “it’s realistic.” And I’m going to be very honest here and I do not mean it rudely but who, in this year of 2020, even cares about what Tumblr does or say about some random cat group who are just Amazon women in a children’s novel. I see people writing these talks about how dumb Tumblr is and just...don’t use it? We are not on Tumblr. Some of them think the sisters are cool and empowering, so what? Everyone thinks about anything in Tumblr and we’ve known that since 2014, they aren’t special for that. That has nothing to do with the group in the story or how they are actually written, which is neutral in SH and critical in Tree’s Roots. What some random group of people thinks about the sisters is irrelevant. Like if we were complaining that one of the first real instances of sexism in Warriors was being done with a female group with reverse sexism, I’d see the complaints because that’s what my issue is. If you don’t like the Sisters because their culture is sexist then fine that’s valid because sexism sucks. But the “it’s a double standard” argument doesn’t sit right. Then again I never liked the “double standard” argument being applied to most situations anyways and always saw it as lazy. Like no duh if the roles were reversed there would probably be outcry—if any because I still doubt it—because the book’s plot and the Brothers would have to be changed drastically, and we’ve been through enough sexist male societies for it to hit home harder already. I would rather there had been no sexism at all in the world of Warriors.
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Post by icefurs on Apr 30, 2020 17:14:55 GMT -5
I think they're cool and rather interesting. I really don't care if they hate toms or not, but I think they should give them some more time before they leave.
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Post by kinkajou on Apr 30, 2020 17:50:18 GMT -5
I’m not sure if they’re written like strawman feminists, that’s not doing them justice in the book at all. In Tree’s Roots you get to hear their reasoning and find out they’re practicing a form of “benevolent” misandry rooted in religion, which makes it slightly more nuanced. I really don’t see how we read that and came to the conclusion that they’re Tumblr feminists or written by a guy when the characters are more nuanced than that. Is Tumblr even relevant anymore? Personally don’t think they’re Tumblr feminists, but they certainly have sexist elements to them that make me go =/ They always send away their toms, always at the same time, they seem to care less for their toms, and overall seem to have a disdain for toms. They’re not “reeee all men bad” but they’re not good either. Course, Tumblr might find a way to spin the Sisters in a positive light, which would suck. No, a group of all she-cats that force any toms born to them to be sent away and wander at six moons is not good. I honestly think that if the roles were reversed, people would be crying for blood. The Sisters do have an interesting concept, but I cannot accept their society. Their nuance is interesting and fascinating to explore but at the end of the day their misandry is bad and Moonlight’s actions are terrible. Tree’s pov is probably skewed a fair bit but then again, would he lie about his upbringing?I mean he did lie about his upbringing to Pebbleshine and Needletail
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