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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 23:51:23 GMT -5
Does anyone else find it hard to feel much sympathy for her?
Like, I feel bad for the fact that she lost her kits, and that Appledusk cheated on her, but those are the only reasons I feel bad for her.
I mean, a lot of these things she brought on herself. Did she really expect, to stay mates with a cat from a rival clan, a cat who caused the death of her leader's son, and think that everything would go hunky dory?
I know that you can't really help who you fall for, but she should have expected her clanmates wouldn't react kindly when they found out, which they would have by the way, even if Ravenwing didn't get that sign from StarClan, and alert Oakstar about her betrayal, RabbitIforgothissuffix, probably would have, because he had already pretty much hit the nail on the head.
Anyway, enough about her life before she lost her kits.
Afterwards, she literally kills cats on purpose, she even tried to kill a PREGNANT cat who did NOTHING wrong.
Then, she goes and messes with vulnerable cats like Goosefeather and Crookedstar, and almost allows Willowbreeze to be kidnapped, and Rainflower to die (though, I'll admit, I wasn't upset at all about that) but still.
The point is, she keeps messing with cats, who did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to her, other than be related to Appledusk (in Crookedstar's case)
Another thing, when Myler tried to be nice to her, she completely threw it back in his face.
It could be argued, that she was driven mad by grief from losing her kits, and she more than likely was, but couldn't the same be said about Oakstar?
I know that Birchface was a warrior, but you don't stop loving your children, just because they get older.
I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions or anything, you can feel free to like her, but I'm just saying why I don't have that much sympathy for her.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Mar 26, 2020 0:48:22 GMT -5
I feel sympathy because while we've seen forbidden romances before almost all of them had some highs (Bluestar got her leadership and her kits got to grow up to strong warriors, Leafpool got to watch her kits grow up... Only Yellowfang had hardly to no ups but still got to stay in her clan) No cat showed any sympathy to her until Myler did and at that point I feel like most people would be too bitter to take comfort from a stranger that you've been taught to look down on (not saying it was right too) after your clan kicked you out, your children dead, and your mate was cheating on you and instead of comforting or expressing remorse over the kits is too busy saving his own hide and doesn't even ask their names Everyone in MV sucked but of all the bad guys we've gotten Mapleshade is the one I feel the most bad for and wouldn't mind a redemption arc...one d a y I mean Breezepelt tried to kill a pregnant cat too and he got his redemption arc
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Bisexual
barley
Bramblestar Hater
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Post by barley on Mar 26, 2020 1:10:55 GMT -5
No i hate mapleshade. She's stupid and made stupid choices and killed cats because she was too stupid to not drown her kits in a river
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 26, 2020 2:30:52 GMT -5
Yeah I pitied her MAYBE at first even if her acting like a rebellious moron regarding the kits and code were dumb as hell (Seriously? Thinking they would accept her kits and end the rivalry or some shit idk anymore, when that will just make it worse and SHE knows it), since absolutely nobody was giving her an ounce of kindness outside a kittypet and maybe that one apprentice who really doesn't even matter.
But the moment she started killing and being a bitch?
ABSOLUTELY nulled, all sympathy and pity was gone. Plus the book tries WAY too hard to make her sympathetic. It doesn't help that the fandom woobifies her in a way even thanks to this, excusing her actions as if murder is the way to handle a cheater (Which it's not, you get away from them and move on to someone better, maybe bitchslap the person that cheated too, but full on murder jealousy is so unhealthy I shouldn't even need to say why it's bad) and thinking she should be in Starclan. It only makes me hate her and not sympathize with her more. Regardless of her mental state, it's not an excuse for murder, it's a reason she fell so hard mentally more like. I feel more bad for Reedshine at the end of the day more than I could for Maple.
But hey, Myler was right there being nice to her, and she pretty much spit that niceness in the trash. If she had swallowed her pride for a damn moment and let him in sotospeak, she probably could've been happier and start a new life with a companion, but she tosses that chance away to die alone. And I don't feel bad for her in any way in the end.
Oh yeah and after her death she literally manipulates someone who's the equivalent to a child/teenager in his most vulnerable state and ruins his life. Oh yeah, totally sympathetic. Why does the fandom think she would protect anyone's kits again when she literally manipulated one on screen with malicious intent? Bitch literally cares about none but herself.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 26, 2020 3:37:30 GMT -5
It's fine to feel sympathetic for villains but also not necessarily agreeing with their actions. You can acknowledge something is morally wrong, but still find satisfaction in how it played out or is written. Mapleshade honestly got the short end of the stick compared to other rule breakers tbh. The only choice I'd probably chide her for is believing that StarClan was showing her an opportunity to raise her kits in peace. She honestly put too much faith in a bunch of dead cats. But that doesn't make the other cats in the story morally better, Mapleshade, despite going on a killing spree out of retaliation, is still for the most part favored by the fandom because of her plot for "revenge fantasy". It's like how people have always wanted to get back at others, but couldn't out of fear of retaliation, etc, but Mapleshade does get her revenge because at that point she had nothing else left to lose.
I've seen people excuse and woobify characters like Dovewing despite her idiotic actions and dragging other characters down with her, but then turn around and mock Mapleshade for having the same type of hope for a future of her kits and mate one day. If anything, Mapleshade's situation was just sheer bad luck. She just happened to be with the cat that her clan hated the most, and was already expecting his kits. But she never really had any intention of revealing the father and was fine with raising them alone in ThunderClan. But because of her blind faith in StarClan, she ultimately thought they were encouraging her behavior and giving her a way out.
Her own leader, and supposed sister in law were celebrating at the idea of the kits avenging their supposed father one day. And I feel like this is a detail that people tend to overlook a lot, Oakstar clearly had bias in this entire situation. Other notable things are Ravenwing judging Mapleshade based on assumptions, admitting to knowing the kits will suffer when he says something about it, and then not lifting a paw to suggest a more moral way of dealing with Maple and the kits while her clan literally tore into her. Frecklewish, in a way, is like Ravenwing, but more naive, assuming things without clear confirmations and clinging to what they want to believe. She attacks Mapleshade in front of her own kits, and then calls them "things" which is basically the cat version of dehumanization, it makes me kinda glad the kits weren't left in a clan like that. I couldn't imagine how horribly they'd treat them. And then Oakstar pretty much banishes innocent kits and a queen, casting them out, and threatening to hurt them if they stayed in their territory.
Of course, Mapleshade would be upset and angry, but she only cared about getting her kits to somewhere safe, in RiverClan with their father. Even if he's from a different clan, he holds just as much responsibility for those kits as her. Even if he never bothered to learn their names, not even death. Mapleshade, even if she didn't make the best choices still loved and cared about her kits, and even almost drowned to try and save them herself when the river flooded. She's not a prophet, she's not a RiverClan cat, obviously, she's not going to know about it flooding, so again it's just another wave of bad luck.
Not only is Mapleshade once against persecuted by another clan, but her own mate also lied to her, was cheating on her, and threw her under a bus to save his own hide. And honestly, Reedshine being so quick to forgive and defend him was honestly gross to read about as well, she didn't feel like she had any self-dignity at all as a character. Mapleshade is not only denied residence during a stormy night, but she's not even allowed to grieve her kits, and is cast out once more.
Mapleshade pretty much came off as a scapegoat for all the events that happened, everything was blamed on her, everyone used her as a punching bag and then she's just left out on her own to die. Meanwhile, everyone else involved got to walk away from all of this scott free. Mylers, as much as I like his character, honestly would never understand the weight of Mapleshade's situation, especially because he's not only a stranger but a kittypet, so it's no surprise that Mapleshade, who has raised a Clan cat all her life would want nothing to do with her. She lost everything she's ever known, and lived for, and believed in. Her faith in StarClan didn't help her, her loved ones turned on her, and she didn't even have the comfort of her kits. She was quite literally broken and was ready to rot in a ditch.
It doesn't matter how you look at it, most of the cats in MV were pretty much jerks with crappy morals. And it doesn't matter how you spin it, they still did what they did to her in the end, just like how she still chose to take justice into her own paws. But like Hollyleaf, those cats weren't Mapleshade's to kill, and yet, I highly doubt StarClan would have judged them at all considering Ashfur got into StarClan.
When Mapleshade's mental state has literally deteriorated, and she's pretty much-having hallucinations of her kits telling her to kill cats so they are at peace, she obviously had nothing else left to lose. She killed Ravenwing because he was the catalyst that sent everything into motion, the one that caused the domino effect. Knowing his actions would put the kits in danger but ignored the pleas of a begging mother. The way Mapleshade killed him was also a symbolism of how she's lost her faith in StarClan. She then goes for Frecklewish, or more so, Frecklewish caused her own demise. She gave Frecklewish and opportunity to get her revenge against her, to show that Warriors of the Clans aren't as morally high as they think they are. If Frecklewish had run away, she would have lived, but she didn't and attacked Mapleshade instead, and all she had to do was dodge her and let the snake finish the job. And when she goes after Appledusk, it was to finally make him acknowledge his actions and the result of them. He didn't want to fight her at first, because he felt guilty, yet she showed none of this when she was being cast out, not remorse for his actions, no sympathy for her and nothing for his kits. It just became a blame game for him. He got a new mate, new kits on the way, and Mapleshade was supposedly a tied up loose end, so he was carefree. But that's not how life works. When Mapleshade turns to kill Reedshine out of blind rage, Appledusk dies for her, but this shocks Mapleshade. Enough for her to slip up and be attacked from behind. But it's Reedshine's words that stung her the most, and too which she replies with her own like a curse.
When Mapleshade does finally reach her last moments of life she believes she's finally done helping her kits, but her revenge isn't complete. She turns away Myler, not wanting him to be with her in her last moments of life, thinking she deserved to die alone, but Myler thinks otherwise even though he leaves her. (I personally don't doubt he was the one that buries her body.) After she dies and finds herself in the Dark Forest, she's quite satisfied. She believes she earned her place there and embraced it, which is understandable because, at this point, she'd rather be there than in StarClan after their betrayal toward her. Case and point Mapleshade's story really is more of a succession of unfortunate events with bad timing, and she ends up being a retaliating whipping boy after being pushed to a certain point. I sympathize with how she was treated because there were many opportunities where things like this could have been avoided. The same could be said for other cats in other cases. The code is obviously flawed, and StarClan even more so, and because of that you have cases where cats end up suffering because of it and head downhill into villainy. And easy example is Darktail, he was rejected by his father who used the code as an excuse and thus grew up hating the clans and causing all the misfortunes that followed. Many cats suffered because of that, and it could have easily been avoided. I sympathize with Darktail to a degree because of how he was treated, even if he did morally horrible things, but that doesn't mean I find his actions justifiable, but they aren't without reason either.
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Post by moonmasksunfrost on Mar 26, 2020 6:32:57 GMT -5
I did feel bad for her initially- her situation sucked for sure, but the fact that they turned everyone around her into completely unsympathetic jerks for the purpose of making her tale more ~tragic and misunderstood~ wasn’t the way to go. I feel almost like they attempted to turn her into the victim, driven mad by grief and cast out by literally everyone.
I find her arc interesting, and feel bad for her initially for certain. But morally there’s no justifying what she did, and looking at all her actions- the evil things she did offset any sympathy I may have felt or that she deserved.
And obviously what she did to Crookedstar throughout his life was reprehensible as well. I don’t know (this might be because it’s been a while since I read the books) how much power she actually had to kill cats, or if she was just manipulating Crooked to think it was because of his promise, but either way. No bueno.
I also find it interesting how her motivation went from “wanting to destroy Appledusk’s family line” in Crookedstar’s Promise to “ah yes I’m one of the leaders in the effort to destroy the living clans” in OotS. Maybe that’s the ‘descent into madness’ factor talking on her part, but I still found it to be an odd bit of shift in her character.
Overall though, I think she was a decent villain- Crookedstar’s Promise was one of my favorite SEs, and though I don’t justify her actions Mapleshade’s Vengeance was kind of a horribly fascinating read from my perspective. From a moral standpoint I despise her, though as a villain I believe she’s one of the better ones in the series.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 26, 2020 7:19:47 GMT -5
Yeah I pitied her MAYBE at first even if her acting like a rebellious moron regarding the kits and code were dumb as hell (Seriously? Thinking they would accept her kits and end the rivalry or some shit idk anymore, when that will just make it worse and SHE knows it), since absolutely nobody was giving her an ounce of kindness outside a kittypet and maybe that one apprentice who really doesn't even matter. But the moment she started killing and being a bitch? ABSOLUTELY nulled, all sympathy and pity was gone. Plus the book tries WAY too hard to make her sympathetic. It doesn't help that the fandom woobifies her in a way even thanks to this, excusing her actions as if murder is the way to handle a cheater (Which it's not, you get away from them and move on to someone better, maybe bitchslap the person that cheated too, but full on murder jealousy is so unhealthy I shouldn't even need to say why it's bad) and thinking she should be in Starclan. It only makes me hate her and not sympathize with her more. Regardless of her mental state, it's not an excuse for murder, it's a reason she fell so hard mentally more like. I feel more bad for Reedshine at the end of the day more than I could for Maple. But hey, Myler was right there being nice to her, and she pretty much spit that niceness in the trash. If she had swallowed her pride for a damn moment and let him in sotospeak, she probably could've been happier and start a new life with a companion, but she tosses that chance away to die alone. And I don't feel bad for her in any way in the end. Oh yeah and after her death she literally manipulates someone who's the equivalent to a child/teenager in his most vulnerable state and ruins his life. Oh yeah, totally sympathetic. Why does the fandom think she would protect anyone's kits again when she literally manipulated one on screen with malicious intent? Bitch literally cares about none but herself. The novella sends her to the dark forest, how does it try too hard to make her sympathetic? It calls her evil quite a few times.
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 26, 2020 7:38:08 GMT -5
Yeah I pitied her MAYBE at first even if her acting like a rebellious moron regarding the kits and code were dumb as hell (Seriously? Thinking they would accept her kits and end the rivalry or some shit idk anymore, when that will just make it worse and SHE knows it), since absolutely nobody was giving her an ounce of kindness outside a kittypet and maybe that one apprentice who really doesn't even matter. But the moment she started killing and being a bitch? ABSOLUTELY nulled, all sympathy and pity was gone. Plus the book tries WAY too hard to make her sympathetic. It doesn't help that the fandom woobifies her in a way even thanks to this, excusing her actions as if murder is the way to handle a cheater (Which it's not, you get away from them and move on to someone better, maybe bitchslap the person that cheated too, but full on murder jealousy is so unhealthy I shouldn't even need to say why it's bad) and thinking she should be in Starclan. It only makes me hate her and not sympathize with her more. Regardless of her mental state, it's not an excuse for murder, it's a reason she fell so hard mentally more like. I feel more bad for Reedshine at the end of the day more than I could for Maple. But hey, Myler was right there being nice to her, and she pretty much spit that niceness in the trash. If she had swallowed her pride for a damn moment and let him in sotospeak, she probably could've been happier and start a new life with a companion, but she tosses that chance away to die alone. And I don't feel bad for her in any way in the end. Oh yeah and after her death she literally manipulates someone who's the equivalent to a child/teenager in his most vulnerable state and ruins his life. Oh yeah, totally sympathetic. Why does the fandom think she would protect anyone's kits again when she literally manipulated one on screen with malicious intent? Bitch literally cares about none but herself. The novella sends her to the dark forest, how does it try too hard to make her sympathetic? It calls her evil quite a few times. It's just it tries really hard to make her a victim by making everyone around her an asshole, to a rather unbelievable degree tbh. I can understand maybe mos of Thunderclan, Appledusk sure, Reedshine not caring (Because why would she need to?) sure, but you'd think Darkstar, a leader who's expected to be neutral, would show some pity even if smidge for her situation. She doesn't even have to trust Maple considering the circumstances, just could've let her properly grieve and not be like everyone else and then maybe be like "Okay you gotta go sorry but you can't stay here" after that's done. The fact that literally only one major side character showed pity to her situation was off. Idk, maybe I'm just falling for the unreliable narration.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 9:07:34 GMT -5
barleyShe didn't kill them on purpose, maybe she could have made a better choice, and not crossed an overflowing river, while it was raining (was it raining? I don't remember) But anyway, most of the time, you don't think clearly when you're super upset.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 26, 2020 9:54:11 GMT -5
I don't have much pity for her and even if she wasn't meant to be sympathetic, her novella certainly made her come off that way because of how ridiculously hostile most of the characters (especially her victims) were to the point where I just couldn't take anything about it seriously.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 26, 2020 10:17:12 GMT -5
The novella sends her to the dark forest, how does it try too hard to make her sympathetic? It calls her evil quite a few times. It's just it tries really hard to make her a victim by making everyone around her an asshole, to a rather unbelievable degree tbh. I can understand maybe mos of Thunderclan, Appledusk sure, Reedshine not caring (Because why would she need to?) sure, but you'd think Darkstar, a leader who's expected to be neutral, would show some pity even if smidge for her situation. She doesn't even have to trust Maple considering the circumstances, just could've let her properly grieve and not be like everyone else and then maybe be like "Okay you gotta go sorry but you can't stay here" after that's done. The fact that literally only one major side character showed pity to her situation was off. Idk, maybe I'm just falling for the unreliable narration. I'm not entirely sure if calling Mapleshade an unreliable narrator would be completely accurate, but even if we see her as one, it still fails because of how unsympathetic her victims come across after the secret comes out most of the time. Ravenwing felt sorry for her and her kits and Frecklewish claims she didn't want the kits to die (although Mapleshade didn't believe her in this regard), but that's about it.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 26, 2020 10:34:49 GMT -5
I don’t have much pity for her, certainly not when she murdered and tormented cats that did not deserve it. Yes, it sucks what happened to her kits, but she crossed so many lines that she was playing tic-tac-toe.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 10:41:59 GMT -5
I don’t have much pity for her, certainly not when she murdered and tormented cats that did not deserve it. Yes, it sucks what happened to her kits, but she crossed so many lines that she was playing tic-tac-toe. Right? I understand that she thought her kits were wanting her to avenge them, and that she felt the need to kill one cat for each of them, but honestly, she should have left it at that. It would have been a nicer wrap up, at least to me, rather than have her impose on this cats who had NOTHING to do with her or her life.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Mar 26, 2020 17:25:03 GMT -5
Brindlefern I like the idea of guardian mapelshade because it gives us morally grey characters (Like crookedstars promise and she still guides crookedstar to leave his mom and such but in her mind its helping him get leader) but that being said I more so like the idea of guardian Maple AUS and not current Maple turning into a guardian (then again I dont like current maple after crookedstars)
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Post by Lightflame on Mar 26, 2020 19:50:58 GMT -5
She was exiled by Oakstar, her own father.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 19:56:11 GMT -5
She was exiled by Oakstar, her own father. Oakstar is Mapleshade's father? For some reason, I thought that she was his aunt
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Post by Ivyfalcon on Mar 26, 2020 19:58:43 GMT -5
She was exiled by Oakstar, her own father. Oakstar isn’t her father. Her parents are unknown, but I’d assume Oakstar can’t be her dad since everyone thought her mate was Birchface, Oakstar’s son, which would be really weird if she was his daughter.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 20:00:13 GMT -5
She was exiled by Oakstar, her own father. Oakstar isn’t her father. Her parents are unknown, but I’d assume Oakstar can’t be her dad since everyone thought her mate was Birchface, Oakstar’s son, which would be really weird if she was his daughter. Omg, I didn't even think about
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Post by Lightflame on Mar 26, 2020 20:07:36 GMT -5
She was exiled by Oakstar, her own father. Oakstar isn’t her father. Her parents are unknown, but I’d assume Oakstar can’t be her dad since everyone thought her mate was Birchface, Oakstar’s son, which would be really weird if she was his daughter. Actually, Su Susann confirmed that Oakstar is Mapleshade's father.
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Post by Ivyfalcon on Mar 26, 2020 20:21:30 GMT -5
Oakstar isn’t her father. Her parents are unknown, but I’d assume Oakstar can’t be her dad since everyone thought her mate was Birchface, Oakstar’s son, which would be really weird if she was his daughter. Actually, Su Susann confirmed that Oakstar is Mapleshade's father. I thought everything she said wasn’t to be taken as canon. At least, the Warriors Wiki doesn’t accept it as such.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 26, 2020 20:41:42 GMT -5
Oakstar isn’t her father. Her parents are unknown, but I’d assume Oakstar can’t be her dad since everyone thought her mate was Birchface, Oakstar’s son, which would be really weird if she was his daughter. Actually, Su Susann confirmed that Oakstar is Mapleshade's father. Su says many things, many of them untrue.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 26, 2020 20:42:02 GMT -5
Oakstar isn’t her father. Her parents are unknown, but I’d assume Oakstar can’t be her dad since everyone thought her mate was Birchface, Oakstar’s son, which would be really weird if she was his daughter. Actually, Su Susann confirmed that Oakstar is Mapleshade's father. Su's word isn't taken now, and besides, as Ivybreeze stated, it wouldn't make sense since that would mean they thought her littermate was her mate
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Post by Phoenix1410 on Mar 27, 2020 2:51:46 GMT -5
Oakstar isn’t her father. Her parents are unknown, but I’d assume Oakstar can’t be her dad since everyone thought her mate was Birchface, Oakstar’s son, which would be really weird if she was his daughter. Actually, Su Susann confirmed that Oakstar is Mapleshade's father. I'm pretty sure she didn't...
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 27, 2020 3:33:23 GMT -5
Guy's you forgot you're talking to Lightflame xP
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2020 4:12:21 GMT -5
yeah guys don't you realize Lightflame's main purpose on this site is to create stupid posts so he can mock you in private when you take him seriously?
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