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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 11:37:41 GMT -5
The way they word things in the Warrior Code is a bit strange, and maybe loopholes?
First up, is forbidden mates... there's nothing against it in the Warrior Code...
Well, the first rule kind of states it
"Defend your Clan, even with your life. You may have friendships with cats from other Clans, but your loyalty must remain to your Clan, as one day you may meet them in battle."
However, it says nothing about not taking a mate, just that your loyalty must remain to your clan..but can't someone have kits with a cat from another clan, and NOT remain loyal to that cat? Like, what if it was a one night stand or something? Or a situation like Reedfeather, where he no longer cared about Fallowtail? I know that the leaders during Ryewhisker's time meant for it to be about forbidden romances, but nothing explicitly states that.
Now, onto the next one...did Oakstar really break the code by exiling Mapleshade's kits?
Number 12 states,
"No warrior can neglect a kit in pain or danger, even if the kit is from a different Clan."
It says, neglect a kit in pain or danger...Mapleshade's kits weren't in pain or danger at the time, they were safe with their mother. The only one who can be faulted by this rule, is Frecklewish, for not getting help, when she noticed that they were drowning.
But then again....the code doesn't say anything about no forbidden relationships soo
By the way, I know that the first rule means no forbidden relationships...but the loophole...
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Aroace
#90ec86
Name Colour
Pineclaw
Pronouns: He/Him or They/Them
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Post by Pineclaw on Mar 13, 2020 16:16:05 GMT -5
Well, having a mate usually goes along with having kits. And even if it doesn't there's often some kind of commitment. Also, remember Fire and Ice, when ThunderClan and WindClan teamed up against ShadowClan and RiverClan? Graystripe found it hard to fight against Silverstream's clanmates. Having a mate in another clan will usually lead to conflicting loyalties. But friendships can be just as dangerous. I think it was in A Dangerous Path... When ThunderClan and RiverClan fought over sunningrocks again. Graystripe showed disloyalty to RiverClan twice. Once by warning Fireheart about Stonefur and Mistyfoot trying to kill Bluestar and right after that by helping Fireheart against Leopardstar. So yeah, platonic bonds can be just as "bad" as romantic ones. I guess cats can have a mate and not be loyal to them but who's gonna believe them that easily? There will still be some distrust, they will still have to prove their loyalty to the clan.
The thing with the kits and Oakstar is a tricky one... As you said, they weren't in danger at that time. I guess it's a bit of an gray area?
What I find interesting is the rule about how a cat can't become deputy before they had an apprentice. Firestar technically went against it by making Brambleclaw his deputy. And no, giving him Berrypaw doesn't count. A cat needs to have fully trained an apprentice. So that they can develop leadership skills, learn responsibility etc. But Brambleclaw already had some experience in that field. Not by having an apprentice by pretty much leading his friends to the sea and back. So I guess Firestar was still abiding by that rule, not by the letter but by the spirit of it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 16:23:47 GMT -5
Well, having a mate usually goes along with having kits. And even if it doesn't there's often some kind of commitment. Also, remember Fire and Ice, when ThunderClan and WindClan teamed up against ShadowClan and RiverClan? Graystripe found it hard to fight against Silverstream's clanmates. Having a mate in another clan will usually lead to conflicting loyalties. But friendships can be just as dangerous. I think it was in A Dangerous Path... When ThunderClan and RiverClan fought over sunningrocks again. Graystripe showed disloyalty to RiverClan twice. Once by warning Fireheart about Stonefur and Mistyfoot trying to kill Bluestar and right after that by helping Fireheart against Leopardstar. So yeah, platonic bonds can be just as "bad" as romantic ones. I guess cats can have a mate and not be loyal to them but who's gonna believe them that easily? There will still be some distrust, they will still have to prove their loyalty to the clan. The thing with the kits and Oakstar is a tricky one... As you said, they weren't in danger at that time. I guess it's a bit of an gray area? What I find interesting is the rule about how a cat can't become deputy before they had an apprentice. Firestar technically went against it by making Brambleclaw his deputy. And no, giving him Berrypaw doesn't count. A cat needs to have fully trained an apprentice. So that they can develop leadership skills, learn responsibility etc. But Brambleclaw already had some experience in that field. Not by having an apprentice by pretty much leading his friends to the sea and back. So I guess Firestar was still abiding by that rule, not by the letter but by the spirit of it. Yeah, true...and breaking friendships, like with Firestar and Onestar, can cause a lot of problems down the line too. I guess there's just no way to make Rule Numer One work out, unless they cut out ALL relationships, both platonic and romantic, but then everyone would be way less willing to do Rule Sixteen, because why would they care about helping out anyone that they have basically no emotional connection to? I really liked it better, back in Dawn of the Clans, when they could just stroll onto each other's territory, and chat over tea and what not. But I guess good things don't last forever. I still think other cats would have been better than Brambleclaw...I think the only reason he got picked, was because of the dream Leafpool had. I know Bramblestar was shown to have good leadership skills on the journey, but really, the only cats he was leading were two apprentices, and his foster siblings..and half the time, they didn't much listen to him. But what's done is done, and he's been a good leader so far for the most part. Also, what about Tigerheart? Should his mentorship count? The only cat he mentored was Sleekwhisker, and he never completed it.
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Aroace
#90ec86
Name Colour
Pineclaw
Pronouns: He/Him or They/Them
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Post by Pineclaw on Mar 13, 2020 17:02:22 GMT -5
Yeah, true...and breaking friendships, like with Firestar and Onestar, can cause a lot of problems down the line too. I guess there's just no way to make Rule Numer One work out, unless they cut out ALL relationships, both platonic and romantic, but then everyone would be way less willing to do Rule Sixteen, because why would they care about helping out anyone that they have basically no emotional connection to? I really liked it better, back in Dawn of the Clans, when they could just stroll onto each other's territory, and chat over tea and what not. But I guess good things don't last forever. I still think other cats would have been better than Brambleclaw...I think the only reason he got picked, was because of the dream Leafpool had. I know Bramblestar was shown to have good leadership skills on the journey, but really, the only cats he was leading were two apprentices, and his foster siblings..and half the time, they didn't much listen to him. But what's done is done, and he's been a good leader so far for the most part. Also, what about Tigerheart? Should his mentorship count? The only cat he mentored was Sleekwhisker, and he never completed it.
Yup, that was a disaster, to put it mildly. But yeah, banning all relationships can't and won't work. Nothing good will come of it, even without Rule Sixteen. Sure, the gathering would still exist but there would be so much more hostility. Hm. I still haven't read Dawn of the Clans so I can't say much about the old times. All I know about that is from Moth Flight's Vision and Code of the Clans. But it does sound kinda cool. And even though they could just enter each other's territories, the cats were still loyal to their own clans. Who would you have chosen instead of Brambleclaw? It's been a while since I read that arc so I don't really know who else would have been a good choice. Maybe Brackenfur, I guess. Yes, after becoming leader Firestar said Brackenfur could be a good deputy but not a good leader. And back then I kinda agreed with him. But now? I think Brackenfur would have been decent at worst. He could have grown into that role and would have led the clan well. I... think I'm not the right person to ask that, I'm not a huge fan of Tigerheart. Okay, actually I kinda like him now and I think he's not all that bad. Still, I'm still salty over how Rowanstar was treated by the writers just so Tigerheart could become leader. And I didn't even like Rowanstar until AVoS. But back to your question. No, I don't think his mentorship should count. But what's done is done and I think as long as he does his job well no cat will complain about it technically being against the code.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 17:11:21 GMT -5
Yeah, true...and breaking friendships, like with Firestar and Onestar, can cause a lot of problems down the line too. I guess there's just no way to make Rule Numer One work out, unless they cut out ALL relationships, both platonic and romantic, but then everyone would be way less willing to do Rule Sixteen, because why would they care about helping out anyone that they have basically no emotional connection to? I really liked it better, back in Dawn of the Clans, when they could just stroll onto each other's territory, and chat over tea and what not. But I guess good things don't last forever. I still think other cats would have been better than Brambleclaw...I think the only reason he got picked, was because of the dream Leafpool had. I know Bramblestar was shown to have good leadership skills on the journey, but really, the only cats he was leading were two apprentices, and his foster siblings..and half the time, they didn't much listen to him. But what's done is done, and he's been a good leader so far for the most part. Also, what about Tigerheart? Should his mentorship count? The only cat he mentored was Sleekwhisker, and he never completed it.
Yup, that was a disaster, to put it mildly. But yeah, banning all relationships can't and won't work. Nothing good will come of it, even without Rule Sixteen. Sure, the gathering would still exist but there would be so much more hostility. Hm. I still haven't read Dawn of the Clans so I can't say much about the old times. All I know about that is from Moth Flight's Vision and Code of the Clans. But it does sound kinda cool. And even though they could just enter each other's territories, the cats were still loyal to their own clans. Who would you have chosen instead of Brambleclaw? It's been a while since I read that arc so I don't really know who else would have been a good choice. Maybe Brackenfur, I guess. Yes, after becoming leader Firestar said Brackenfur could be a good deputy but not a good leader. And back then I kinda agreed with him. But now? I think Brackenfur would have been decent at worst. He could have grown into that role and would have led the clan well. I... think I'm not the right person to ask that, I'm not a huge fan of Tigerheart. Okay, actually I kinda like him now and I think he's not all that bad. Still, I'm still salty over how Rowanstar was treated by the writers just so Tigerheart could become leader. And I didn't even like Rowanstar until AVoS. But back to your question. No, I don't think his mentorship should count. But what's done is done and I think as long as he does his job well no cat will complain about it technically being against the code. I'm on the fence about Tigerheart too, because he did kind of break the code, if you don't pay attention to the wording of it lol, and caused some trouble with his sneaking around with Dovewing. However, out of all of ShadowClan, he and Tawnypelt were the ONLY two cats to stay loyal to Rowanstar..I know Puddleshine would have if he could, but he's a medicine cat, so he couldn't be leader. It is annoying though, how they killed off Crowfrost and Rowanstar, and did Rowanstar so dirty, just so Tigerheart could be leader. As for who I think would be a good leader for ThunderClan.. I actually think Brackenfur would be a great leader, he's kind, loyal, not hot-headed and reckless, he's just a decent guy all around. But Firestar didn't think he'd be a good leader for some reason, so there's that. Hmm, maybe Longtail? He grew quite a bit as a character, and even before he knew of the kind of cat Tigerclaw was, and his plans, he did the right thing, and saved Firestar's life when he was an apprentice. I can't really think of anyone else who might be good for the job.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Mar 13, 2020 23:24:10 GMT -5
I said this in a thread about Onestar a WAAAAAAAAAY long time ago, but the cats in the Warriors-verse are very good about following the spirit of the law rather than the letter. This is likely because the code is passed down orally and isn't written anywhere (in universe). I can't recall a single time in the established canon that a warrior quotes the warrior code exactly. They always have the general gist, and sometimes get quite close, but never exactly. I think the Warrior Code is less supreme law of the land the way we Twolegs do it, and more just a general set of ideas that the cats adhere to. So using any kind of loophole that relies on the wording of the exact code, is likely not going to get you out of punishment in the Warriors world. For example, Code 1 concerning interClan relationships. It doesn't technically say you can't do it, but the way the legends are passed down makes it clear that interClan relationships lead to disloyalty, and should be discouraged. Therefore, most cats raised in the Clans would consider having a mate outside your Clan to be breaking the code. When I talk about the legends, I mean the first story from each chapter of Code of the Clans. Leafpool is the one telling these stories, so we can assume they're passed down from generation to generation, presumably to help apprentices remember the code, and is another reason why the exact wording doesn't matter as much as the context the legend provides.
(Leafpool only tells the first story of each chapter, not the random extra stories that sometimes pop up, like the one about Longtail and Darkstripe). Now, there is a reasonable loophole concerning Oakstar's exiling of the kits. The legend passed down alongside Code 12 involves RiverClan warriors neglecting to save WindClan kits from the river. Therefore, it's possible that Oakstar's reasoning was that the kits in question weren't Clan kits, and so shouldn't be cared for the same way. Since the legend only involves Clan kits, I could see this reasoning being used, even though it's despicable. The possibility remains open that Mapleshade predates the creation of Code 12 anyway. All the legends in Code of the Clans are legends and of questionable truth, so there's no way for us to know for sure that they and all the characters in them aren't just made up. Code 15 certainly wasn't around in Maple's time, so maybe 12, 13, and 14 all got made in a short span of time between Mapleshade's time and Bluestar's time, and legends were created and had different characters so they were more interesting. Just a thought though, I don't really get behind this one as much.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2020 6:59:32 GMT -5
Skypaw13I've wondered it myself, if MV was before Rule 12 was made, but I've always been too scared to ask lol
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