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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 11:12:15 GMT -5
I've been thinking, and I don't think that the rule that a cat isn't allowed to take a mate outside the clan, is a bad one.
Like Webfoot told Crowfeather, "Aren't there any WindClan she-cats for you to pad after?" The same would apply in any clan, to any cat. I understand that some cats can't help who they get feelings for, but acting on those feelings, and putting everyone around you in potential danger, is a completely different thing.
Nothing but trouble has stemmed from Forbidden Romances. With Crowfeather x Leafpool, not only did it affect them, but it also affected A LOT of cats around them, Bramblestar and Squirrelflight's relationship got a wrench thrown into it, Squirrelflight's loyalty to ThunderClan got questioned, she nearly went to the Dark Forest, Nightcloud and Breezepelt's lives were turned upside down, and ThunderClan now has to deal with having the most annoying medicine cat to ever live. (Joking about the last one) With Fallowtail x Reedfeather, a battle was started between RiverClan and WindClan, over their kits, and Hailstar almost drowned Reedfeather. And there's many more examples.
I think one way this could work out, is to go the Dovewing x Tigerheart route, and have them both join the same clan, but way sooner, like at the start of when they start getting really close. Sure, the cat who joins will still need to prove themselves to their new clan, and they'll be seen as a traitor by their old clan, but it's better than involving other cats in their secrets, and causing battles, and what not.
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Post by aether on Mar 11, 2020 13:56:47 GMT -5
I think that, logically, they are good though. Brings fresh bloodlines into the camps - helps keeps lines clean. Halfclan cats are probably the healthiest because of it with all these related cats being mates and all. Alas, that is getting a bit deep though.
Like a reason I think Ferncloud and dustpelt had most of their kits killed off is because I think if they had all grown, taken mates, and had kits there would be SO MANY cats who are related, and less options for romantic pairings. Obviously I have no evidence to back this up, but it makes sense to me.
I don't mind forbidden romances only because I am a tragical romantic at heart lol.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 11, 2020 14:02:20 GMT -5
They add new blood. The only reason most of them go astray is because of the very rule that keeps them apart. It'd be better if there was an open policy that allowed for going between clans to have relationships.
I feel the medicine cat policy is dumb too. Leafpool was a capable medicine cat while her kits were RIGHT THERE. As was Yellowfang. Moth Flight's inability to balance things shouldn't hurt every future medicine cat. The logic doesn't even make sense. If not kits, what about their siblings? Parents? Best friends? Even if Leafpool DIDN'T have her kits, she would still obviously care the most for her sister (who she's ridiculously close to) and her parents
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 14:36:39 GMT -5
aetherI understand that they're good for getting fresh-blood into the clans, which is why I suggested that they move to each other's clans. What I'm against, is how much harm it causes, two cats have the potential to put two whole clans, and maybe more, in danger. That's what I think it'd be best if they were just straight up about it. Also...maybe it would be okay if a clan cat had kits with someone who wasn't in another clan, like a rogue or something, but remember what happened with Nettle? That caused the death of Rowanstar. *Ottersplash*What about clan loyalty? I think the medicine cat thing is super dumb too, not only do most of them have fully trained apprentices, like who in the series is still a medicine cat apprentice? Every clan pretty much has two fully trained medicine cats, except WindClan. Plus there's perm queens, and elders who love telling stories to kits, and yeah, just a lot of help. There's no need for that rule, it just does more harm than good.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 11, 2020 14:51:47 GMT -5
ChickenClan loyalty is all well and good, but at one point there were open borders and less skirmishes that Skystar has messed up. Cats should be allowed to switch clans to be with their mate and kits without repercussions. It'd probably be beneficial to the clans. Also, for Nettle, that was only because Nettle sucked. Violetshine had kits with Tree and it hasn't been an issue.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 14:53:29 GMT -5
Chicken Clan loyalty is all well and good, but at one point there were open borders and less skirmishes that Skystar has messed up. Cats should be allowed to switch clans to be with their mate and kits without repercussions. It'd probably be beneficial to the clans. Also, for Nettle, that was only because Nettle sucked. Violetshine had kits with Tree and it hasn't been an issue. Yeah, but Tree is part of SkyClan, same as Violetshine, they had kits after he joined SkyClan.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 11, 2020 14:55:20 GMT -5
Chicken Clan loyalty is all well and good, but at one point there were open borders and less skirmishes that Skystar has messed up. Cats should be allowed to switch clans to be with their mate and kits without repercussions. It'd probably be beneficial to the clans. Also, for Nettle, that was only because Nettle sucked. Violetshine had kits with Tree and it hasn't been an issue. Yeah, but Tree is part of SkyClan, same as Violetshine, they had kits after he joined SkyClan. But a rogue could join the clan. As I said, the only issues from rogues come from Nettle being awful Or Onestar being awful, if we consider him having kits with Smoke
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 14:59:55 GMT -5
Yeah, but Tree is part of SkyClan, same as Violetshine, they had kits after he joined SkyClan. But a rogue could join the clan. As I said, the only issues from rogues come from Nettle being awful Or Onestar being awful, if we consider him having kits with Smoke True, I don't think there is any easy solution for this, that's 100% guaranteed not to get anyone hurt
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 11, 2020 15:02:37 GMT -5
But a rogue could join the clan. As I said, the only issues from rogues come from Nettle being awful Or Onestar being awful, if we consider him having kits with Smoke True, I don't think there is any easy solution for this, that's 100% guaranteed not to get anyone hurt I just think the new blood is important for the clans. Like, Daisy coming in with her kits was HUGE. Mousewhisker needs to have kits, and they should have let Hazeltail live because those two and Berrynose were the only kits with no Thunderclan/Clan in them
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 15:12:48 GMT -5
True, I don't think there is any easy solution for this, that's 100% guaranteed not to get anyone hurt I just think the new blood is important for the clans. Like, Daisy coming in with her kits was HUGE. Mousewhisker needs to have kits, and they should have let Hazeltail live because those two and Berrynose were the only kits with no Thunderclan/Clan in them I completely agree, I think it's so lame that they killed Hazeltail off, and that Mousewhisker hasn't had any kits yet, and Lionblaze and Cinderheart, have had two litters already, Sorrelstripe and Fernsong have had litters, I really think Mousewhisker or Stormcloud should have kits..ooh imagine if Daisy and Stormcloud had kits together! That'd be complete set of new blooded cats. But Mousewhisker could be the father of Sorrelstripe's kits..but I doubt it
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 11, 2020 16:55:00 GMT -5
I just think the new blood is important for the clans. Like, Daisy coming in with her kits was HUGE. Mousewhisker needs to have kits, and they should have let Hazeltail live because those two and Berrynose were the only kits with no Thunderclan/Clan in them I completely agree, I think it's so lame that they killed Hazeltail off, and that Mousewhisker hasn't had any kits yet, and Lionblaze and Cinderheart, have had two litters already, Sorrelstripe and Fernsong have had litters, I really think Mousewhisker or Stormcloud should have kits..ooh imagine if Daisy and Stormcloud had kits together! That'd be complete set of new blooded cats. But Mousewhisker could be the father of Sorrelstripe's kits..but I doubt it Daisy too old now :c Rosepetal and Stormcloud?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 16:59:49 GMT -5
I completely agree, I think it's so lame that they killed Hazeltail off, and that Mousewhisker hasn't had any kits yet, and Lionblaze and Cinderheart, have had two litters already, Sorrelstripe and Fernsong have had litters, I really think Mousewhisker or Stormcloud should have kits..ooh imagine if Daisy and Stormcloud had kits together! That'd be complete set of new blooded cats. But Mousewhisker could be the father of Sorrelstripe's kits..but I doubt it Daisy too old now :c Rosepetal and Stormcloud? That'd be cute It might anger a lot of people though, because they want Rosepetal x Bumblestripe and Stormcloud x Cherryfall. I think Dewnose could be cute with Rosepetal
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 11, 2020 17:04:39 GMT -5
Daisy too old now :c Rosepetal and Stormcloud? That'd be cute It might anger a lot of people though, because they want Rosepetal x Bumblestripe and Stormcloud x Cherryfall. I think Dewnose could be cute with Rosepetal I just want Rosepetal happy, and if Bumble keeps doing shady things, he's not gonna deserve my girl
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 17:07:47 GMT -5
That'd be cute It might anger a lot of people though, because they want Rosepetal x Bumblestripe and Stormcloud x Cherryfall. I think Dewnose could be cute with Rosepetal I just want Rosepetal happy, and if Bumble keeps doing shady things, he's not gonna deserve my girl Yeah true, if Bumblestripe doesn't get his act together, then he shouldn't be with anyone. Maybe Rosepetal x Molewhisker? Though, she was his mentor, so it might be weird...but mentors and apprentices have become mates before, like Whitetail and Onestar, and Cherrytail and Sharpclaw
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Post by cowbird on Mar 11, 2020 19:27:58 GMT -5
Well Clan loyalty is clan loyalty. Taking a mate from another clan literally to me overrides that expectation all clans have for their warriors. Maybe more cats need to learn how to respect it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 19:39:03 GMT -5
Well Clan loyalty is clan loyalty. Taking a mate from another clan literally to me overrides that expectation all clans have for their warriors. Maybe more cats need to learn how to respect it. But they made a promise to uphold the warrior code, and that involves not taking a mate outside of the clan. I don't see any way that this could work out, unless they're upfront about it, and join the same clan. Remember in the first series, when Firestar was stuck between fighting for ThunderClan, and fighting Silverstream's clan, because his best friend Graystripe was mates with her?
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 11, 2020 20:00:49 GMT -5
Is it bad I feel clans being more intermingled would cut down on conflicts? Like, no one would want to fight their kin
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 11, 2020 20:30:05 GMT -5
Like a reason I think Ferncloud and dustpelt had most of their kits killed off is because I think if they had all grown, taken mates, and had kits there would be SO MANY cats who are related, and less options for romantic pairings. Obviously I have no evidence to back this up, but it makes sense to me. Unfortunately that's using logic, the real reason was because Vicky thought Dust and Fern are too boring a couple unless they suffer all the time.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 11, 2020 20:33:40 GMT -5
Like a reason I think Ferncloud and dustpelt had most of their kits killed off is because I think if they had all grown, taken mates, and had kits there would be SO MANY cats who are related, and less options for romantic pairings. Obviously I have no evidence to back this up, but it makes sense to me. Unfortunately that's using logic, the real reason was because Vicky thought Dust and Fern are too boring a couple unless they suffer all the time. Which is sad. I LOVE how healthy and happy pairings like DustFern are, or SorrelBracken, or IvyFern. They don't need drama to be cute and nice to read about
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 20:55:12 GMT -5
*Ottersplash*That's actually a REALLY good point, about them not wanting to fight their kin. However, with soo many half-clan cats in their clans, can they even be considered separate clans anymore? If everyone is practically related in all four clans...and everyone is seeing everyone, would they just merge into one big clan? Also, I agree about all the nice healthy couples..I like when there's no drama there.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Mar 11, 2020 21:02:48 GMT -5
Like a reason I think Ferncloud and dustpelt had most of their kits killed off is because I think if they had all grown, taken mates, and had kits there would be SO MANY cats who are related, and less options for romantic pairings. Obviously I have no evidence to back this up, but it makes sense to me. Unfortunately that's using logic, the real reason was because Vicky thought Dust and Fern are too boring a couple unless they suffer all the time. yeah why have healthy happy normal couples when you can have more annoying soap opera romances
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Post by Skypaw13 on Mar 11, 2020 21:13:34 GMT -5
I totally agree with you in one sense, but I disagree in another sense:
As Clan culture stands from arc 1 to 4 and 6-7, the no interClan relationships rule is a good idea, because as we've seen, it causes a whole bunch of problems. Just getting rid of this rule and changing nothing else about Clan culture would be bad- we'd see more discrimination of half-Clan kits because they wouldn't be kept secret, and battles would be more open to betrayal on all sides as cats couldn't figure out who to be loyal to.
However, if Clan culture changed to reflect the openness around interClan relationships, then that would be fine. If Clan vs Clan rivalry wasn't so strong that halfClan kits are at risk of death (which they always have been; Jay, Lion, and Holly were born into the safest time period for halfClanners-- immediately following the Great Journey-- and they still were at reasonable risk of exile which is why Leaf gave them up), if Clans fought each other much less and we saw more alliances, if Clans were more open around visitors so mates didn't have to leave their entire family for good when they took a mate from another Clan... if all those were the case, then not being able to have a mate in another Clan IS a dumb rule, because all it accomplishes is making cats feel guilty.
A lot of people do want Clan culture to change in the ways I mentioned in the second paragraph, so they push for the rule to be abolished (I guess thinking that abolishing the rule would somehow lead to the changes they want to see?). Personally, I like the portrayal of Clans as separate states, and the rules that come out of such a society. I'm in the minority though.
I'm also in the minority when it comes to the whole Medicine Cat thing... I really liked the no mate or kits rule, and I wish it had been given a better reason other than "the first medicine cat sucked at it, therefore all medicine cats suck at it". Like, yeah, if that's where the rule came from, it's a dumb rule. But before the release of MFV, I really liked it and thought it was really interesting- and I think it makes MCs more special.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 21:22:39 GMT -5
I totally agree with you in one sense, but I disagree in another sense: As Clan culture stands from arc 1 to 4 and 6-7, the no interClan relationships rule is a good idea, because as we've seen, it causes a whole bunch of problems. Just getting rid of this rule and changing nothing else about Clan culture would be bad- we'd see more discrimination of half-Clan kits because they wouldn't be kept secret, and battles would be more open to betrayal on all sides as cats couldn't figure out who to be loyal to. However, if Clan culture changed to reflect the openness around interClan relationships, then that would be fine. If Clan vs Clan rivalry wasn't so strong that halfClan kits are at risk of death (which they always have been; Jay, Lion, and Holly were born into the safest time period for halfClanners-- immediately following the Great Journey-- and they still were at reasonable risk of exile which is why Leaf gave them up), if Clans fought each other much less and we saw more alliances, if Clans were more open around visitors so mates didn't have to leave their entire family for good when they took a mate from another Clan... if all those were the case, then not being able to have a mate in another Clan IS a dumb rule, because all it accomplishes is making cats feel guilty. A lot of people do want Clan culture to change in the ways I mentioned in the second paragraph, so they push for the rule to be abolished (I guess thinking that abolishing the rule would somehow lead to the changes they want to see?). Personally, I like the portrayal of Clans as separate states, and the rules that come out of such a society. I'm in the minority though. I'm also in the minority when it comes to the whole Medicine Cat thing... I really liked the no mate or kits rule, and I wish it had been given a better reason other than "the first medicine cat sucked at it, therefore all medicine cats suck at it". Like, yeah, if that's where the rule came from, it's a dumb rule. But before the release of MFV, I really liked it and thought it was really interesting- and I think it makes MCs more special. That's a REALLY good point, I like the portrayal of the clans being separate too, having their own set of skills, their own way of life, etc. Like, how in ShadowClan, Violetshine was shocked that they used their claws outside of an actual fight, or whatever it was, because they never do that in ThunderClan. Also, how some SkyClan cat remarked that Baypaw and Myrtlepaw were strange names. And just a lot of things that make each clan unique and what not.
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Mar 11, 2020 22:00:55 GMT -5
I want the clans, in general, to be on friendly terms. Honestly, I would prefer if forbidden relationships were legalized. It sucks that Dovewing can't visit her family in ThunderClan even though ThunderClan and ShadowClan almost never fight anymore, especially since Tawnypelt is Bramblestar's sister. It sucks that Twigbranch and Violetshine can't talk regularly. It sucks that cats get so angry about which clan a squirrel belongs to. The more I think about it, there isn't much of a reason for things to stay like this. The clans fight so little now and their fights last a book at the most. Most of the fights also aren't lethal either.
In a more meta sense, whenever the clans fight each other nowadays, it feels contrived, especially since Onestar died. Tigerheartstar trying to drive out SkyClan and Mistystar attacking ShadowClan to get the land the lost due to squeezing SkyClan in could be solved if the cats just talked to each other. Warriors has always been at its best when there was a villain/outside threat, anyway.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Mar 11, 2020 22:06:58 GMT -5
I wouldn't mind forbidden romances if they weren't so annoying. One that comes to mind is Tigerheart and Dovewing. Their romance did not need so many books. One arc should have been enough.
The only forbidden romance I actually like is Bluestar and Oakheart...but the way Bluestar explained it in Forest of Secrets. Not so much as to how it played out in Bluestar's Prophecy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 12:11:45 GMT -5
I was wrong you guys. My argument has no basis or anything. Forbidden relationships aren't even against the code exactly.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 13, 2020 15:00:04 GMT -5
Daisy too old now :c Rosepetal and Stormcloud? That'd be cute It might anger a lot of people though, because they want Rosepetall x Bumblestripe and Stormcloud x Cherryfall. I think Dewnose could be cute with Rosepetal Lately Bumblestripe has been getting moments with Cherryfall though, even more interesting ones like when they both called out Dovewing's unloyal behavior, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they became a thing at this point to be honest.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 15:01:48 GMT -5
That'd be cute It might anger a lot of people though, because they want Rosepetall x Bumblestripe and Stormcloud x Cherryfall. I think Dewnose could be cute with Rosepetal Lately Bumblestripe has been getting moments with Cherryfall though, even more interesting ones like when they both called out Dovewing's unloyal behavior, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they became a thing at this point to be honest. That'd be a cute pairing..I wouldn't be surprised if anyone became a pairing tbh, it seems like unless they're a main character, they just randomly generate couples together or something lol
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Post by Skypaw13 on Mar 13, 2020 22:58:05 GMT -5
I was wrong you guys. My argument has no basis or anything. Forbidden relationships aren't even against the code exactly. You mean how the code doesn't even actually prevent relationships, it just says you need to remain loyal? I've taken that position for years. However, I do think in the spirit of the law, it still frowns upon relationships, since the code was started because of an interClan relationship.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2020 6:42:07 GMT -5
I was wrong you guys. My argument has no basis or anything. Forbidden relationships aren't even against the code exactly. You mean how the code doesn't even actually prevent relationships, it just says you need to remain loyal? I've taken that position for years. However, I do think in the spirit of the law, it still frowns upon relationships, since the code was started because of an interClan relationship. Yeah, those are my thoughts as well lol
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