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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 15:06:43 GMT -5
Tigerheartstar's littermates, but who do you like better?
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 29, 2020 15:45:17 GMT -5
Dawnpelt is my favorite of the three.
Flametail is probably my least favorite character in the whole series.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 15:53:52 GMT -5
Dawnpelt is my favorite of the three. Flametail is probably my least favorite character in the whole series. Wow really? That's shocking, usually, I see people that dislike Dawnpelt and Love Flametail
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 29, 2020 16:11:58 GMT -5
Dawnpelt is my favorite of the three. Flametail is probably my least favorite character in the whole series. Wow really? That's shocking, usually, I see people that dislike Dawnpelt and Love Flametail I could rant for days about Flametail. With Dawnpelt, I really appreciated her conviction and willingness to stand up for what she believes in- a trait she keeps her entire life. Also, Jayfeather's murder trial was the most interesting thing that happened to him that season, let's be real. XD
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 16:16:19 GMT -5
Wow really? That's shocking, usually, I see people that dislike Dawnpelt and Love Flametail I could rant for days about Flametail. With Dawnpelt, I really appreciated her conviction and willingness to stand up for what she believes in- a trait she keeps her entire life. Also, Jayfeather's murder trial was the most interesting thing that happened to him that season, let's be real. XD Yeah, at first I didn't like Dawnpelt because of the trouble she caused for Jayfeather, but then I thought about it from her perspective, and she had a right to be upset, she just lost her brother, and probably wasn't thinking clearly. Tigerheart is still my favorite Tawnypelt kit though, I know he's done some bad stuff lately, but I just adore him. Flametail is my least favorite Tawnypelt kit.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 29, 2020 16:29:34 GMT -5
I could rant for days about Flametail. With Dawnpelt, I really appreciated her conviction and willingness to stand up for what she believes in- a trait she keeps her entire life. Also, Jayfeather's murder trial was the most interesting thing that happened to him that season, let's be real. XD Yeah, at first I didn't like Dawnpelt because of the trouble she caused for Jayfeather, but then I thought about it from her perspective, and she had a right to be upset, she just lost her brother, and probably wasn't thinking clearly. Tigerheart is still my favorite Tawnypelt kit though, I know he's done some bad stuff lately, but I just adore him. Flametail is my least favorite Tawnypelt kit. Honestly, I feel like she had a point and was thinking perfectly clearly. The only thing that tarnishes her statement is the fact that literally no one in her Clan believes her (some RC and WC cats do though, weirdly). Other than that, it's perfectly logical. She already has a distrust against halfclanners because that's how the Clan's culture works (not saying it's right, but it's very common in their world). So when her brother falls into the water and a halfClan cat from another Clan who's never been kind to him follows him into the water and comes up a few minutes later saying there's nothing he could do... sheesh, I would be suspicious too! We as readers see Jay trying to save Flametail, so we know it's not true, but none of the other cats in the books know that. The leaders seem to have a good enough grasp on Jay's moral character to believe he wouldn't do that, and ShC warriors probably saw Flametail fall and had a better view of what was going on, and that's why they don't believe her. But since neither of those are proof one way or the other, I don't think we have to say Dawnpelt was mad with grief or otherwise not thinking straight because... her point of view makes sense. I didn't realize I had this much to say on the situation. XD
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 16:31:01 GMT -5
Yeah, at first I didn't like Dawnpelt because of the trouble she caused for Jayfeather, but then I thought about it from her perspective, and she had a right to be upset, she just lost her brother, and probably wasn't thinking clearly. Tigerheart is still my favorite Tawnypelt kit though, I know he's done some bad stuff lately, but I just adore him. Flametail is my least favorite Tawnypelt kit. Honestly, I feel like she had a point and was thinking perfectly clearly. The only thing that tarnishes her statement is the fact that literally no one in her Clan believes her (some RC and WC cats do though, weirdly). Other than that, it's perfectly logical. She already has a distrust against halfclanners because that's how the Clan's culture works (not saying it's right, but it's very common in their world). So when her brother falls into the water and a halfClan cat from another Clan who's never been kind to him follows him into the water and comes up a few minutes later saying there's nothing he could do... sheesh, I would be suspicious too! We as readers see Jay trying to save Flametail, so we know it's not true, but none of the other cats in the books know that. The leaders seem to have a good enough grasp on Jay's moral character to believe he wouldn't do that, and ShC warriors probably saw Flametail fall and had a better view of what was going on, and that's why they don't believe her. But since neither of those are proof one way or the other, I don't think we have to say Dawnpelt was mad with grief or otherwise not thinking straight because... her point of view makes sense. I didn't realize I had this much to say on the situation. XD That's true, I was thinking more of the lines like...he's blind, and like everyone has been underestimating him from the very beginning, and what not, you know?
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 29, 2020 16:35:37 GMT -5
Honestly, I feel like she had a point and was thinking perfectly clearly. The only thing that tarnishes her statement is the fact that literally no one in her Clan believes her (some RC and WC cats do though, weirdly). Other than that, it's perfectly logical. She already has a distrust against halfclanners because that's how the Clan's culture works (not saying it's right, but it's very common in their world). So when her brother falls into the water and a halfClan cat from another Clan who's never been kind to him follows him into the water and comes up a few minutes later saying there's nothing he could do... sheesh, I would be suspicious too! We as readers see Jay trying to save Flametail, so we know it's not true, but none of the other cats in the books know that. The leaders seem to have a good enough grasp on Jay's moral character to believe he wouldn't do that, and ShC warriors probably saw Flametail fall and had a better view of what was going on, and that's why they don't believe her. But since neither of those are proof one way or the other, I don't think we have to say Dawnpelt was mad with grief or otherwise not thinking straight because... her point of view makes sense. I didn't realize I had this much to say on the situation. XD That's true, I was thinking more of the lines like...he's blind, and like everyone has been underestimating him from the very beginning, and what not, you know? I think so? So you're thinking because he's blind that should have been a tip off to her that maybe it's illogical for him to go after Flametail in that way? That makes sense. I think one of the TC warriors at the Gathering points out that would be a greater risk for him because of his blindness.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 16:39:30 GMT -5
That's true, I was thinking more of the lines like...he's blind, and like everyone has been underestimating him from the very beginning, and what not, you know? I think so? So you're thinking because he's blind that should have been a tip off to her that maybe it's illogical for him to go after Flametail in that way? That makes sense. I think one of the TC warriors at the Gathering points out that would be a greater risk for him because of his blindness. Yeah pretty much. Like, the readers know that Jayfeather can do pretty much anything a sighted cat can do, but no one else knew about his powers at the time. Even then, I don't think they'd help him drown a cat.
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Post by *Faith* on Jan 29, 2020 17:52:08 GMT -5
Dawnpelt is my favourite of her litter.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Jan 30, 2020 0:06:16 GMT -5
Dawnpelt. She hasn't annoyed me as much as Tigerheart and Flametail.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jan 30, 2020 0:32:46 GMT -5
I'm one of the vast minority that love Flametail. Dawnpelt just annoyed me in OoTS.
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Post by halogen on Jan 30, 2020 23:01:56 GMT -5
While we're on the topic of how understandable Dawnpelt's reaction to Flametail's death is, could I also defend Flametail's own reaction a bit? A lot of people who hate Flametail hate him because of the whole "willing to let Jayfeather die in StarClan for... just trying to help him" thing, and basically see it as Flametail being murderously petty and vindictive when Jayfeather in fact risked his life to save him despite being blind. But remember that while from Dawnpelt's perspective that's a good reason not to snap and blame him of all cats, Flametail isn't just mad that Jayfeather tried to save him but failed. He's mad that Jayfeather willingly let him die just because some creep told him to. Imagine you are drowning, someone tries to save you, and then out pops this creepy cat monster ghost thing out of nowhere to tell you to let him die, and he, apparently obedient to said creepy cat monster ghost thing, listens, and lets you die.
Ok, but Rock did give his reasons, that Flametail had to die and Jayfeather would just die too. So however infuriating this would be, surely he could assume good intentions before letting him die too? Well, remember what happens to Flametail immediately after that. That's right, he immediately ends up in the Dark Forest, where there are more creepy cat ghosts who want him dead and have convinced a Clan cat (Ivypool) to loyally obey them and go through with it, except this time they want to obliterate his spirit forever. Said ghosts are unambiguously evil and have no noble reason for doing this. So if you are Flametail, what are you going to think. That sure, the second time one of these non-StarClan ghost cats wanted him dead, it was for evil reasons, but that first creepy monster totally was just doing what's necessary, and the cat who listened and let him die really did have no choice? Or that Jayfeather was doing the exact same as Ivypool, slavishly obeying an evil spirit. Remember that Rock's whole "he can't be saved" spiel is the exact same thing Mapleshade said to convince Crookedstar to let Rainflower die! And also that StarClan themselves had been spending the last few moons trying to warn Flametail of his death - they clearly weren't just thinking it was his time to die like Rock was, they were not in league with them - if anything, to Flametail, it would seem like Jayfeather and Rock were thwarting StarClan's plan. Not only that, but StarClan had spent the last few moons trying to tell Flametail that he had an important destiny, that a great threat was coming to ShadowClan and he needed to be strong to save them. He cared so much about this, doing his best for his Clan, that he utterly exhausted himself - especially when on top of this he had to deal with Jayfeather himself, who was using force to keep ShadowClan away from the herbs Flametail needed to save his beloved mentor and others (so it wouldn't be out of character from Flametail's perspective for him to do this). And so now you're telling me StarClan really would turn around and say "lol psych, we actually want you to just die"?
So, Flametail really had every right to be mad at Jayfeather from his perspective. And he still relented and saved him, and ultimately himself played a big part in reuniting StarClan in time for the battle against the Dark Forest.
And past that, people don't like Flametail because... he was a jerk/hypocrite to Lionblaze once? Just about every character has been annoying in that way to POV characters from other Clans, but most of them don't get nearly the flak Flametail gets for it, unless their actions are way worse than just (like along the lines of Russetfur leaving Berrykit in the fox trap). I like his personality of being genuinely, deeply compassionate with a passion for helping others even at his own expense and understanding StarClan, but also sometimes dumb and sometimes having a temper/holding grudges. Someone who has the best intentions but sometimes arrogantly thinks that he knows best too much and isn't as smart as he thinks he is, but when it comes down to it he would give everything for his Clan and be the quiet presence helping everyone and cheering everyone on, even if he feels a bit isolated himself. He has surprising depth for the little amount that he's featured.
If you don't like him because of his POV being poorly placed/unnecessary in a book that was already cluttered, I get that - I found it enjoyable so I would have preferred that OOTS give him a bigger role and make him matter more, but I understand why someone would think the reverse and wish he was just cut out. The way they handled it in any case wasn't ideal, the only disagreement is of whether it should have been changed to accommodate Flametail more or just get rid of his importance entirely.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 31, 2020 7:38:33 GMT -5
I like them both, they're loads better than Tigerheart tbh. I also kinda wanted to see Dawnpelt as deputy over Tigerheart in AVoS, and I feel bad for Flametail dying so soon.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 31, 2020 16:51:39 GMT -5
halogen yeah, that all makes sense and was really well thought out. Personally I don't like Flametail for primarily narrative reasons- I think his presence in Night Whispers wasn't necessary at all and distracted and took away from our already established characters. Mostly Lionblaze- NW could have been a really great Lionblaze book, the only one he's gotten except maybe Dark River. We also could have changed literally nothing about the actual events that happen in NW and just portray them differently and there would have been a better book. For example, when Ivypaw is kidnapped, we could see Flametail's visions. Or Jayfeather could accidentally spy on him at the Moonpool or something. There's... no reason for Flametail to be here. For in-universe reasons, I feel like Flame's rudeness goes beyond Clan rivalry. ShC cats do taunt TC cats pretty often, that's true. But Flame is a medicine cat so I hold him to a higher standard, and using his status as an MC for the purpose of taunting Lionblaze was really disgusting to me. Flame's behavior is much worse than that of a typical ShC warrior taunting another Clan's patrol, when his status as MC should have encouraged him to be better than that. Combine that with the fact that it's his first scene in the book, and no matter how nice he is to his own Clanmates, I'm not going to find him likable. After reading your post, I think you have a really great interpretation of the StarClan-Jayfeather-drowning-in-mud thing, and it's really made me think. I will say that the reason I found that scene so obnoxious on Flametail's end is because they have a conversation in Sign of the Moon where they seem fine with each other, and it really seems like Flame is just trying to be petty, especially with his dialogue. Great points though! I won't be changing my mind on Flametail being my least favorite cat, but I do appreciate the counterpoint.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 31, 2020 21:09:13 GMT -5
Flametail and Lionblaze thought they were kin at one point, so it's reasonable for him to be angry at Lionblaze especially considering how loved Russetfur was in ShadowClan. Imo, I think Lionblaze's behavior was a 100x more disgusting. We have to literally read about him wanted to jump on Flametail, rake him with his claws, and feel his life ebb away like he did to Russetfur. And I kid you not, that's how he describes it, it's as if he felt enjoyment killing Russet, and wanted to do the same to a medicine cat.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 21:11:11 GMT -5
Flametail and Lionblaze thought they were kin at one point, so it's reasonable for him to be angry at Lionblaze especially considering how loved Russetfur was in ShadowClan. Imo, I think Lionblaze's behavior was a 100x more disgusting. We have to literally read about him wanted to jump on Flametail, rake him with his claws, and feel his life ebb away like he did to Russetfur. And I kid you not, that's how he describes it, it's as if he felt enjoyment killing Russet, and wanted to do the same to a medicine cat. Are you serious? 0_o I don't remember that at all. Wow... Lionblaze needs help
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 31, 2020 21:12:58 GMT -5
Flametail and Lionblaze thought they were kin at one point, so it's reasonable for him to be angry at Lionblaze especially considering how loved Russetfur was in ShadowClan. Imo, I think Lionblaze's behavior was a 100x more disgusting. We have to literally read about him wanted to jump on Flametail, rake him with his claws, and feel his life ebb away like he did to Russetfur. And I kid you not, that's how he describes it, it's as if he felt enjoyment killing Russet, and wanted to do the same to a medicine cat. Are you serious? 0_o I don't remember that at all. Wow... Lionblaze needs help It happens during his confrontation with Flametail, while Cinderheart was with him. And yeah I agree, Lionblaze has some serious messed up thoughts and dreams sometimes, like that whole Heather thing, ugh. It's one of the reasons I can't stand his POV.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 21:15:36 GMT -5
Are you serious? 0_o I don't remember that at all. Wow... Lionblaze needs help It happens during his confrontation with Flametail, while Cinderheart was with him. And yeah I agree, Lionblaze has some serious messed up thoughts and dreams sometimes, like that whole Heather thing, ugh. It's one of the reasons I can't stand his POV. Jeez I thought that Tigerclaw was just manipulating his dreams or something with the Heathertail thing He shouldn't be thinking that way about any cat, much less a medicine cat, that's just awful
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 31, 2020 21:28:28 GMT -5
It happens during his confrontation with Flametail, while Cinderheart was with him. And yeah I agree, Lionblaze has some serious messed up thoughts and dreams sometimes, like that whole Heather thing, ugh. It's one of the reasons I can't stand his POV. Jeez I thought that Tigerclaw was just manipulating his dreams or something with the Heathertail thing He shouldn't be thinking that way about any cat, much less a medicine cat, that's just awful A lot of people say it's Tiger manipulating his dreams, but also seem to forget that initially Lionblaze DID enjoy them. He only liked the dream when he found her dead, not him killing her, so he found satisfaction in her dying as long as he didn't have blood on his own paws, it's gross.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 22:53:49 GMT -5
Jeez I thought that Tigerclaw was just manipulating his dreams or something with the Heathertail thing He shouldn't be thinking that way about any cat, much less a medicine cat, that's just awful A lot of people say it's Tiger manipulating his dreams, but also seem to forget that initially Lionblaze DID enjoy them. He only liked the dream when he found her dead, not him killing her, so he found satisfaction in her dying as long as he didn't have blood on his own paws, it's gross. Wtf Why does he hate her so much? He's the one who hurt her, not the other way around. She's the one who wanted to continue their friendship, but he wanted to focus on being a warrior. I'm really glad he seems to be more mature lately.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 31, 2020 23:14:12 GMT -5
A lot of people say it's Tiger manipulating his dreams, but also seem to forget that initially Lionblaze DID enjoy them. He only liked the dream when he found her dead, not him killing her, so he found satisfaction in her dying as long as he didn't have blood on his own paws, it's gross. Wtf Why does he hate her so much? He's the one who hurt her, not the other way around. She's the one who wanted to continue their friendship, but he wanted to focus on being a warrior. I'm really glad he seems to be more mature lately. There's also the fact that he blamed Hollyleaf's supposed death, from the tunnels, on Heathertail, that was ridiculous honestly. His character grates my nerves, and the only reason he's tolerable now is cause he doesn't get as much screen time anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 23:17:40 GMT -5
Wtf Why does he hate her so much? He's the one who hurt her, not the other way around. She's the one who wanted to continue their friendship, but he wanted to focus on being a warrior. I'm really glad he seems to be more mature lately. There's also the fact that he blamed Hollyleaf's supposed death, from the tunnels, on Heathertail, that was ridiculous honestly. His character grates my nerves, and the only reason he's tolerable now is cause he doesn't get as much screen time anymore. What why? Does he think Heathertail is a witch or something? Or was he like, "If Heathertail never showed me these tunnels, then Hollyleaf never would have died!" But still, Hollyleaf made the choice to run in there, Heathertail had absolutely nothing to do with it. Then again, people (well, cats in this case) don't think clearly when they're upset.
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Post by Lightflame on Jan 31, 2020 23:26:13 GMT -5
All of Tawnypelt's kits are terrible.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 31, 2020 23:27:18 GMT -5
I was going to write out a long post explaining my opinion on Lionblaze, but honestly I don't want to get into any debates. If people don't like Lionblaze because he was thinking bad thoughts about a medicine cat (his behavior is completely reasonable, he never actually does anything to Flametail outside of calling him a mean name), then I can dislike Flametail because he was being needlessly petty and antagonistic. It's literally the exact same reasoning, just targeted at a different cat.
I think chicken's comment of "Lionblaze needs help", though intending something else, raises a really good point. There are no therapists in the Warriors world. Lionblaze is clearly struggling with some untreated disorder and has violent thoughts (in my opinion caused by his powers, seeing as he's a really gentle and caring cat outside of fights), that people would typically seek treatment for. Hollyleaf suffers from delusions and possible suicidality, and Jayfeather shows signs of depression from an extremely young age. And there are countless more, like Dovewing having PTSD over Swoop. I don't think having our main characters suffer from these feelings is a bad thing, and makes them more interesting to me. So I actually like Lionblaze's erratic and sometimes disturbing thoughts, they add to his character.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Feb 1, 2020 1:48:46 GMT -5
There's also the fact that he blamed Hollyleaf's supposed death, from the tunnels, on Heathertail, that was ridiculous honestly. His character grates my nerves, and the only reason he's tolerable now is cause he doesn't get as much screen time anymore. What why? Does he think Heathertail is a witch or something? Or was he like, "If Heathertail never showed me these tunnels, then Hollyleaf never would have died!" But still, Hollyleaf made the choice to run in there, Heathertail had absolutely nothing to do with it. Then again, people (well, cats in this case) don't think clearly when they're upset. It's pretty much him blaming Heathertail for her death just because Heathertail was the one to find the tunnels, which was so stupid. He once was glaring at her so much at a gathering that she felt uncomfortable under her fur and kept changing spots to sit. I don't get why people excuse his gross behavior, and horribly violent thinking all the time. For a cat that supposedly didn't mean to kill Russetfur, he seems to have enjoyed it if he wanted to do the same to a medicine cat, it's disgusting and uncomfortable to read about.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2020 7:53:00 GMT -5
LightflameI respect your opinion, but I personally disagree...all of Tigerclaw's kits on the other hand...they're super lame, especially that Mothwing.. this is a joke btw, I actually like Mothwing the best, except for maybe Bramblestar Skypaw13Oh no, that was my intention, and I agree, I wonder how many issues could have been resolved if they just had someone to talk to, who knew what they were doing? Like, when Poppyfrost came to Jayfeather for advice about the Honeyfern and Berrynose situation, and what not ❅Maplefrost❅I really need to re-read those two arcs, I mostly just skimmed The Power of Three, and I only remember a couple of scenes, and in Omen of the Stars, I mostly only paid attention to the Dark Forest and StarClan scenes, because all the cats I cared about were either already dead or background characters.
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