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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 0:57:02 GMT -5
Wow. Okay Erins. We can't have same-sex mates, but we can have SpottedThistle? Aight.
This book made me feel unclean. Like, why does this exist? It contradicts BP. No, Spottedleaf did not always want to be a warrior, she literally begged to be a medicine cat. And why throw in the ****philic relationship between Thistleclaw and Spottedpaw? They could've easily just had Tigerpaw/claw fill the role he played. This book was just gross, and didn't do a thing to help Spottedleaf's bland character. Chuck it in the fire with Shadowstar's Life.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 3:08:07 GMT -5
babump
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jan 5, 2020 3:57:22 GMT -5
Considering the relationship was supposed to be seen as bad, I never really minded the novella and it didn't affect my opinion on Thistleclaw since I already hated him anyway. That being said, the story was still really unnecessary.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 9:40:43 GMT -5
This book was very pointless, all it did was drag Thistleclaw down in the worst way, when he was already unlikeable enough by almost causing the death of a defenseless kit. Did he even like Spottedleaf though, or was he just using her crush on him to his advantage? Either way, it's still wrong.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Jan 5, 2020 16:51:58 GMT -5
yeah, I don't have an issue with the fact that the relationship was there, since it was clearly supposed to wrong. but like....if you're gonna portray something like that in a book, it should at least add something to the story aside from making the adult more hatable and making the reader uncomfortable. and in general im sick of the novellas that are basically just the main character (usually a she-cat) going through relationship drama, especially when the relationship is vile
and like you mentioned, i dont understand why harper collins is apparently okay with spottedthistle yet talljake and ravenbarley had to be kept to subtext and confirmed in FAQs. i don't think that's the erin's fault, though, since it's the publisher who decides what can and can't be in the books
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 5, 2020 17:04:13 GMT -5
I still think they only decided on that after the backlash, because there was no word of it prior. Also...they're cats...I don't think it really matters imo. To me, apprentices are adults, of age, so I'm not really bothered by Apprentice/Warrior romances, especially considering it's a common trope in the series anyways.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Jan 5, 2020 18:36:45 GMT -5
Honestly, I was more annoyed by Spottedleaf saying she wanted to be a warrior when in Bluestar's Prophecy she wanted to be a medicine cat.
There have been quite a few apprentice/warrior relationships, but ThistleSpotted was strange.
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Genderqueer
mrnnki
I do not think, therefore I am not.
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Post by mrnnki on Jan 5, 2020 19:51:07 GMT -5
I didn't really think much of SH until after everyone freaked out about it, aside from being annoyed with the book saying Spottedleaf wanted to be a warrior when she seemed like she always wanted to be a medicine cat in BP and TPB. The relationship was obviously toxic, even if I didn't think that the ****philia theme was as extensive as some people said.
It would've worked just as well if they used another cat. Heck, it could've even been more interesting. The book felt like it was meant to explain why Thistleclaw was in the DF rather than tell its own story, and I didn't notice Thistleclaw getting creepy close with any younger cats in the future books, so it doesn't feel very preplanned either.
Honestly, it would've made more sense to have the relationship be between Thistleclaw and Tigerpaw (it would certainly explain things, and could give Tigerstar depth past "I want power and hate kittypets." He could even be the one that killed Thistleclaw in secret, rather than a patrol, if we wanted a twist) or, like happy413 mentioned, between Spottedpaw and Tigerpaw.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 5, 2020 21:04:25 GMT -5
Are apprentices child soldiers? No? Then you cannot hold a logically consistent position where this is ****philia. It's a very poor argument that ignores Dustpelt x Fernpaw and Scorchpaw x Snowbird. This novella is poorly written, but that is not the reason why.
The reason there are no gay relationships is because that would get banned in Russia and China. Having an abusive relationship(which is portrayed as bad, even if sloppily) is not illegal in any country. You can argue validly about the ethics of catering to the whims of homophobic governments for money, but again, it's a bad argument to act like having an abusive relationship is a good "gotcha" on the topic because that is not the same in terms of financial effect.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Jan 5, 2020 21:59:41 GMT -5
I am dismayed at what they did to Thistleclaw, he was one of the more interesting bad guys for me and I loved seeing him portrayed in a sympathetic light
and then this came out
also CAN WE STOP WITH THE FORCED TO BE A MED CAT TROPE????
I refuse to accept this book as canon
spottedleaf always wanted to be a med cat and thistleclaw always only loved snowfur
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Post by cappuccinokitty on Jan 6, 2020 7:12:27 GMT -5
Spottedleafs heart felt like I was reading some kind of shitty wattpad fan fiction. It was completely pointless, and didn’t help her painfully boring character at all. Her relationship with Thistleclaw just made me feel kinda uncomfortable tbh
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Post by morningflower on Jan 6, 2020 7:39:15 GMT -5
The reason people find this novella particularly uncomfortable is because Thistleclaw begins grooming Spottedkit when she is still in the nursery. I really do not think it was unintentionally uncomfortable
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 6, 2020 9:14:01 GMT -5
When? And how? I've read the novel twice and he doesn't do anything like that, he was just genuinely nice to her, and Spotted had a crush on him. There have been other cats with crushes on older cats around that age, like Cinderpelt, she had a crush on Firestar when she barely became his apprentice, or prior. It's not like Thistleclaw was after Spottedleaf when she was only a spring chicken. And apprentices, again as far as I'm concerned, are adults, and the only reason they can't have mates is because it gets in the way of their "military training". I can get if people are uncomfortable about it, you can literally be uncomfortable about anything, it's a personal thing, but I still think the reason behind the backlash was ridiculous, and I still think it was unintentional by the Erins, or specifically Vicky.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jan 6, 2020 9:30:01 GMT -5
The reason people find this novella particularly uncomfortable is because Thistleclaw begins grooming Spottedkit when she is still in the nursery. I really do not think it was unintentionally uncomfortable I caught onto it the first time I read the preview and I think I was actually the first one who pointed it out on the forums, too. Relationships between warriors and apprentices is nothing new for the series, but it's pretty obvious what Vicky was likely going for here. Whether she handled it well or not is a different matter entirely, as no one seems to even notice that the two of them like each other from what I can recall. This may be because Spottedpaw was already an apprentice by the time they confessed their feelings for each other, but still... As for Thistleclaw himself, like I said, I already didn't like him, so the way I interpreted his portrayal here was less to show why he went to the Dark Forest but more so that it was meant to show just how far he was willing to go to get what he wanted. In this case, it was attempting to manipulate a young apprentice into training in the Dark Forest and then choosing them over her. This post also clears up the misconceptions on Thistleclaw, but because the links it provides to Warriors Wish no longer work, I suggest taking it with a grain of salt at best, but I still think it's interesting to look into nonetheless. commonwarriorsmisconceptions.tumblr.com/post/83118127631/bluestar-is-a-very-controversial-character-on-the/amp
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 6, 2020 12:45:31 GMT -5
The reason people find this novella particularly uncomfortable is because Thistleclaw begins grooming Spottedkit when she is still in the nursery. I really do not think it was unintentionally uncomfortable I caught onto it the first time I read the preview and I think I was actually the first one who pointed it out on the forums, too. Relationships between warriors and apprentices is nothing new for the series, but it's pretty obvious what Vicky was likely going for here. Whether she handled it well or not is a different matter entirely, as no one seems to even notice that the two of them like each other from what I can recall. This may be because Spottedpaw was already an apprentice by the time they confessed their feelings for each other, but still... As for Thistleclaw himself, like I said, I already didn't like him, so the way I interpreted his portrayal here was less to show why he went to the Dark Forest but more so that it was meant to show just how far he was willing to go to get what he wanted. In this case, it was attempting to manipulate a young apprentice into training in the Dark Forest and then choosing them over her. This post also clears up the misconceptions on Thistleclaw, but because the links it provides to Warriors Wish no longer work, I suggest taking it with a grain of salt at best, but I still think it's interesting to look into nonetheless. commonwarriorsmisconceptions.tumblr.com/post/83118127631/bluestar-is-a-very-controversial-character-on-the/ampI don't think acting as if the authors can't change their minds is very fair with this series and its many retcons and backtracks. It's entirely possible that, at the time of that statement, it was entirely true that it was deliberately ambiguous and Bluestar may have just chased him out. This obviously changed later on, but many things change later on. Tigerheart never trained in the Dark Forest according to TBC, for instance. Or Redtail's Debt and that fun bunch of retcons.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 7, 2020 1:10:10 GMT -5
I don't really want to get into a debate with anyone on this, I'll just say that SH does make me extremely uncomfortable and I believe its intention was to show how relationships like this are bad and it just did that sloppily. I do think a certain amount of backlash was warranted, though because I'm not really involved with the community I can't say for sure how much. I've always read apprentices as teenagers 12-19, not adults, and so the Spotted-Thistle relationship just really made me hurt. Thankfully, it being a novella means it stays out of the eyes of the much younger audience, and can easily be disconsidered from canon if one wants.
That all being said, I don't think the novella ever portrays SpottedThistle positively. It's sloppy in how it portrays it negatively, but it never shows it as being a good thing, which I appreciate.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 7, 2020 12:02:15 GMT -5
But isn't 18/19 adult though...
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