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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 17:18:38 GMT -5
And I'm talking about her in the Dark Forest, not about her disliking Dovewing being with Tigerheart.
Do you think it makes sense for Ivypaw to be naive as a child when she trusted Hawkfrost? Personally, I think it could have been handled better. I'm not talking about her being in the meadow with Hawkfrost; that part actually makes sense to me.. if only they continued that part between them. Later on in the series, Ivypool began to feel uncomfortable and noticed that the Dark Forest warriors. But she stayed and kept visiting to train to be better than Dovewing. She didn't realize that it was dangerous until Tigerstar admitted he was using her, which never made sense to me why everyone (this also includes Lionblaze and Brambleclaw, who were also dumb enough to fall for this) believed it was a safe place and that it was StarClan. I know a lot of this comes to really bad writing though. Ivypool trusting Hawkfrost would make more sense to me if they just continued being in the dream with the meadow in it, but they stopped that, and he foolishly introduced her to the Dark Forest.
She should have noticed sooner that it was a bad place, imo. I know it's perfectly normal for all apprentinces to be naive, because they're children, but this was just bad writing and it should have been obvious that the Dark Forest was bad from the start. If Tawnypelt had a brain to see this, then Lionblaze, Brambleclaw and the others should have seen this, too. And I don't even know why Birchfall decided to go to the Dark Forest. He had no reason to be there.
I mean, really? Cats scratching each other, bleeding onto the floor, is StarClan to them? Come on. Not to mention you're also training with cats who were in elders' stories about killing their leader or Clamates. The whole Dark Forest manipulation was handled so horribly.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 17, 2019 17:28:48 GMT -5
Cats followed Tigerstar when he was murdering people in public. By comparison, the DF is subtle.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 17:31:54 GMT -5
Cats followed Tigerstar when he was murdering people in public. By comparison, the DF is subtle. ThunderClan & WindClan were actually completely against Tigerstar and his ways. He murdered Gorsepaw and no one wanted to follow him after that. ThunderClan never told anyone that he tried to kill Bluestar. Firestar tried, but a lightning struck, and Tigerstar used that as a sign to stop Firestar from telling them. Leopardstar only joined because she had feelings for Tigerstar and the idea made sense to her. Everyone else who knew that Tigerstar was capable of murder did not join them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 17:47:06 GMT -5
I think the dumbest cat in this situation is Thornclaw. He was alive when cats like Brokenstar and Tigerclawstar were alive. He and his littermates were kidnapped by Brokenstar and his goons. His sisters were severely injured by Tigerstar. Sure, he didn't injure them himself, but he was the cause of it. If he did go there to protect Blossomfall, like a lot of people seem to think, he should have tried talking her out of it, or something.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Sept 17, 2019 18:50:08 GMT -5
Po3 and OotS both suffer from having too many stories to tell (coming from someone who loves both these series). It's not that any of said stories were bad (though they do range in quality), just that there's not enough time to split between them. OotS suffers particularly badly from this. It's best seen with Lionblaze and Cinderheart's romance, but Ivypaw's introduction to the Dark Forest is another example.
Ivypaw likely had never heard of Hawkfrost. Dovepaw only knew about him because Jayfeather just so happened to bring it up in casual conversation. I'm not sure, but I think Brambleclaw was actually trying to keep the whole thing a secret during Po3 (which makes it weird Jay knows, but hey, have to remind the audience about Hawkfrost somehow). Either way, Ivy doesn't know who he is, just that he appears to be a StarClan warrior taking interest in her.
She dreams of the flowery meadow the first time, when she meets him. After that, it's implied she visits this meadow often. In her second chapter she says she "didn't want to visit the pasture alone today", which says to me that it's fairly normal for Hawk to train her here. But in addition to that, the environment is slowly changing. The "winds had stripped the flowers from the meadow and driven pale gray clouds across the sky". In her third chapter, she says that she dreamed beyond the meadow, and we briefly see her searching around for Hawkfrost. She's not quite in the forest yet, she's still on the outskirts (describing the trees as "half shadowed" with a gray mist, not quite as dark imagery as she uses later, but getting there). It's unclear whether this is flashback or happening now, but this chapter is where she meets Tigerstar, and she is nervous about it and knows he's bad, until he manipulates her.
My point is similar to my stance on Lion/Cinder: It is slow, it is built up; we just don't see it because the series itself is stretched too thin across so many plotlines. We're seeing major events (the first meadow dream, the meadow changing to the windy pasture, and the first time she goes to the forest), but we're not seeing any of the in-between, even though it is happening. Same as with Lion/Cinder, I wouldn't call the storyline itself rushed, just that we don't see enough of it for it to feel genuine.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 17, 2019 21:49:49 GMT -5
Cats followed Tigerstar when he was murdering people in public. By comparison, the DF is subtle. ThunderClan & WindClan were actually completely against Tigerstar and his ways. He murdered Gorsepaw and no one wanted to follow him after that. ThunderClan never told anyone that he tried to kill Bluestar. Firestar tried, but a lightning struck, and Tigerstar used that as a sign to stop Firestar from telling them. Leopardstar only joined because she had feelings for Tigerstar and the idea made sense to her. Everyone else who knew that Tigerstar was capable of murder did not join them. All of Shadowclan was at his beck and call and Leopardstar was fawning at his feet. True, not every cat followed him, but then he was also far more outwardly evil back then. In the Dark Forest arc, he's far less outwardly evil and there are far less trainees than there were cats following him in the first series. I imagine if you tried to calculate a function of it, the less evil Tigerstar acts, the more recruits he gets, but he already had a clan+ worth of loyal followers even at his most evil.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Sept 18, 2019 6:51:07 GMT -5
Ivypool trusting hawkfrost at first made sense, but yeah, the whole thing with the dark forest cats really didn’t. a lot of cats in this series seem really clueless to how bad the dark forest is though so idk why ivypool gets so much hate for it specifically
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Post by Card against Humanity on Sept 18, 2019 6:58:06 GMT -5
Po3 and OotS both suffer from having too many stories to tell (coming from someone who loves both these series). It's not that any of said stories were bad (though they do range in quality), just that there's not enough time to split between them. OotS suffers particularly badly from this. It's best seen with Lionblaze and Cinderheart's romance, but Ivypaw's introduction to the Dark Forest is another example. Ivypaw likely had never heard of Hawkfrost. Dovepaw only knew about him because Jayfeather just so happened to bring it up in casual conversation. I'm not sure, but I think Brambleclaw was actually trying to keep the whole thing a secret during Po3 (which makes it weird Jay knows, but hey, have to remind the audience about Hawkfrost somehow). Either way, Ivy doesn't know who he is, just that he appears to be a StarClan warrior taking interest in her. She dreams of the flowery meadow the first time, when she meets him. After that, it's implied she visits this meadow often. In her second chapter she says she "didn't want to visit the pasture alone today", which says to me that it's fairly normal for Hawk to train her here. But in addition to that, the environment is slowly changing. The "winds had stripped the flowers from the meadow and driven pale gray clouds across the sky". In her third chapter, she says that she dreamed beyond the meadow, and we briefly see her searching around for Hawkfrost. She's not quite in the forest yet, she's still on the outskirts (describing the trees as "half shadowed" with a gray mist, not quite as dark imagery as she uses later, but getting there). It's unclear whether this is flashback or happening now, but this chapter is where she meets Tigerstar, and she is nervous about it and knows he's bad, until he manipulates her. My point is similar to my stance on Lion/Cinder: It is slow, it is built up; we just don't see it because the series itself is stretched too thin across so many plotlines. We're seeing major events (the first meadow dream, the meadow changing to the windy pasture, and the first time she goes to the forest), but we're not seeing any of the in-between, even though it is happening. Same as with Lion/Cinder, I wouldn't call the storyline itself rushed, just that we don't see enough of it for it to feel genuine. honestly it wouldn’t have even been that hard to make the stories in those two series’s feel complete if they had of just cut all the filler and random subplots. like I would much rather read about the dark forest apprentices than Millie worrying about her daughter
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 9:55:40 GMT -5
Ivypool trusting hawkfrost at first made sense, but yeah, the whole thing with the dark forest cats really didn’t. a lot of cats in this series seem really clueless to how bad the dark forest is though so idk why ivypool gets so much hate for it specifically I blame everyone just as much as Ivypool for being stupid about this. Especially Brambleclaw. Dear god, his only excuse was that he "wanted to get to know his father" but he already knew him and how he acted when he was alive! I just dislike how this whole plot was handled and it makes no sense to me with anyone. So cats getting tortured and beaten alive is peace and harmony to you (StarClan)? Uh, okay, idiots.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Sept 18, 2019 10:24:22 GMT -5
Ivypool trusting hawkfrost at first made sense, but yeah, the whole thing with the dark forest cats really didn’t. a lot of cats in this series seem really clueless to how bad the dark forest is though so idk why ivypool gets so much hate for it specifically I blame everyone just as much as Ivypool for being stupid about this. Especially Brambleclaw. Dear god, his only excuse was that he "wanted to get to know his father" but he already knew him and how he acted when he was alive! I just dislike how this whole plot was handled and it makes no sense to me with anyone. So cats getting tortured and beaten alive is peace and harmony to you (StarClan)? Uh, okay, idiots. yeah bramblestar is easily the worst offender in that regard lmao. at least with ivypool and lionblaze they were still young when it started so it could make sense for them to be so naive. bramblestar KNEW that tigerstar was a bad person and did it anyways
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 18, 2019 10:49:05 GMT -5
Po3 and OotS both suffer from having too many stories to tell (coming from someone who loves both these series). It's not that any of said stories were bad (though they do range in quality), just that there's not enough time to split between them. OotS suffers particularly badly from this. It's best seen with Lionblaze and Cinderheart's romance, but Ivypaw's introduction to the Dark Forest is another example. Ivypaw likely had never heard of Hawkfrost. Dovepaw only knew about him because Jayfeather just so happened to bring it up in casual conversation. I'm not sure, but I think Brambleclaw was actually trying to keep the whole thing a secret during Po3 (which makes it weird Jay knows, but hey, have to remind the audience about Hawkfrost somehow). Either way, Ivy doesn't know who he is, just that he appears to be a StarClan warrior taking interest in her. She dreams of the flowery meadow the first time, when she meets him. After that, it's implied she visits this meadow often. In her second chapter she says she "didn't want to visit the pasture alone today", which says to me that it's fairly normal for Hawk to train her here. But in addition to that, the environment is slowly changing. The "winds had stripped the flowers from the meadow and driven pale gray clouds across the sky". In her third chapter, she says that she dreamed beyond the meadow, and we briefly see her searching around for Hawkfrost. She's not quite in the forest yet, she's still on the outskirts (describing the trees as "half shadowed" with a gray mist, not quite as dark imagery as she uses later, but getting there). It's unclear whether this is flashback or happening now, but this chapter is where she meets Tigerstar, and she is nervous about it and knows he's bad, until he manipulates her. My point is similar to my stance on Lion/Cinder: It is slow, it is built up; we just don't see it because the series itself is stretched too thin across so many plotlines. We're seeing major events (the first meadow dream, the meadow changing to the windy pasture, and the first time she goes to the forest), but we're not seeing any of the in-between, even though it is happening. Same as with Lion/Cinder, I wouldn't call the storyline itself rushed, just that we don't see enough of it for it to feel genuine. honestly it wouldn’t have even been that hard to make the stories in those two series’s feel complete if they had of just cut all the filler and random subplots. like I would much rather read about the dark forest apprentices than Millie worrying about her daughter So basically Dove/Tiger's unnecessary romance plots that served nothing toward the actual main plot whatsoever. Along with the same reason but with Bumble, and her conflict with Ivy, it pretty much took up 80% of her character, making it pretty much a waste. Jay's flashbacks were at least necessary because of his powers. We find out he's pretty much the reason for the clans coming to be, and also he's arguably the most powerful of the three with the most influence. Along with him uniting StarClan again and getting them to help the living cats in the final battle as one. Lionblaze's side plot with Heather was just...drama. And his relationship with Cinder felt rushed as Sky explained, the only time he had actual plot relevance was in POT because he couldn't control his powers properly. In comparison, in OotS, he mostly took the back seat, which is why he comes off as "boring" to many.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Sept 18, 2019 13:34:58 GMT -5
honestly it wouldn’t have even been that hard to make the stories in those two series’s feel complete if they had of just cut all the filler and random subplots. like I would much rather read about the dark forest apprentices than Millie worrying about her daughter So basically Dove/Tiger's unnecessary romance plots that served nothing toward the actual main plot whatsoever. Along with the same reason but with Bumble, and her conflict with Ivy, it pretty much took up 80% of her character, making it pretty much a waste. Jay's flashbacks were at least necessary because of his powers. We find out he's pretty much the reason for the clans coming to be, and also he's arguably the most powerful of the three with the most influence. Along with him uniting StarClan again and getting them to help the living cats in the final battle as one. Lionblaze's side plot with Heather was just...drama. And his relationship with Cinder felt rushed as Sky explained, the only time he had actual plot relevance was in POT because he couldn't control his powers properly. In comparison, in OotS, he mostly took the back seat, which is why he comes off as "boring" to many. If I were to rewrite those two arcs I would definitely cut: -dovebumble (dovetiger can stay ig but it would be greatly reduced in pagetime/more subtle. I’d also give dovewing something to actually do besides whine about her powers/her destiny/her sister/bumble stripe/tigerheart -lionxheather - the millie/blossom/briar drama - all the endless back and forth in pot about the powers bc I wouldn’t have the powers at all - that pointless part at the beginning of the sight where lionkit almost gets everyone killed - lionblaze training with tigerstar and that’s just off the top of my head
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