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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 19:29:45 GMT -5
Okay, so I know that Bumblestripe was made to look like a jerk in a couple scenes, like the one where he asks Dovewing to be with him again at like the worst time, and where he's being a little mean to her while they're training, or whatever, and that was to make Tigerheart look better, or something. But why was Finleap made into a jerk? Usually, when guys are made to be jerks, it's to make the other love interest look better, which sucks, because they're usually the worse ones to begin with.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 19:36:00 GMT -5
There is nothing more that I hate in fictional media when a guy is worsened so the other one looks better. The Erins wanted drama, so that is what happened. Same! It's happening in the show I'm currently watching and it's soo irritating. That makes a lot of sense, I just wish they didn't have to ruin Finleap for it
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Post by Pixie on Aug 5, 2019 19:37:27 GMT -5
There is nothing more that I hate in fictional media when a guy is worsened so the other one looks better. The Erins wanted drama, so that is what happened. Same! It's happening in the show I'm currently watching and it's soo irritating. That makes a lot of sense, I just wish they didn't have to ruin Finleap for it May I ask which show?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 19:41:14 GMT -5
Same! It's happening in the show I'm currently watching and it's soo irritating. That makes a lot of sense, I just wish they didn't have to ruin Finleap for it May I ask which show? It's called Find Me in Paris
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 5, 2019 19:42:18 GMT -5
There is literally no reason for it other than drama. But if we want to get into in-universe reasons, it seems like he genuinely thought that kits would make him feel like he belonged in ThunderClan. The problem is that he never gave any sort of indication that he ever felt this way in RoF and had already fit in quite well in ThunderClan anyway, so it just makes it look like it came out of nowhere.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 19:44:53 GMT -5
There is literally no reason for it other than drama. But if we want to get into in-universe reasons, it seems like he genuinely thought that kits would make him feel like he belonged in ThunderClan. The problem is that he never gave any sort of indication that he ever felt this way in RoF and had already fit in quite well in ThunderClan anyway, so it just makes it look like it came out of nowhere. I always thought his reasoning was that he had seen like so many cats die around him, because of Darktail and what not, and he wanted to continue his family line before it was too late, but I think what you're saying makes more sense
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 5, 2019 19:48:19 GMT -5
There is literally no reason for it other than drama. But if we want to get into in-universe reasons, it seems like he genuinely thought that kits would make him feel like he belonged in ThunderClan. The problem is that he never gave any sort of indication that he ever felt this way in RoF and had already fit in quite well in ThunderClan anyway, so it just makes it look like it came out of nowhere. I always thought his reasoning was that he had seen like so many cats die around him, because of Darktail and what not, and he wanted to continue his family line before it was too late, but I think what you're saying makes more sense Not only that, but Finleap hadn't even been born when SkyClan was driven out of the gorge and the Clan had arrived not long before Darktail was defeated.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 19:52:32 GMT -5
I always thought his reasoning was that he had seen like so many cats die around him, because of Darktail and what not, and he wanted to continue his family line before it was too late, but I think what you're saying makes more sense Not only that, but Finleap hadn't even been born when SkyClan was driven out of the gorge and the Clan had arrived not long before Darktail was defeated. Oh right, was he around when Darktail was collecting people to join his kin? Or wait, that's why ShadowClan merged with SkyClan? I don't really remember much from this series, except a few small scenes, but nothing major
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 5, 2019 19:57:11 GMT -5
Not only that, but Finleap hadn't even been born when SkyClan was driven out of the gorge and the Clan had arrived not long before Darktail was defeated. Oh right, was he around when Darktail was collecting people to join his kin? Or wait, that's why ShadowClan merged with SkyClan? I don't really remember much from this series, except a few small scenes, but nothing major No, that was after. And anyway, he was recruiting kittypets. SkyClan had arrived at the lake sometime after Needletail's death and Violetpaw had just escaped to ThunderClan. Darktail was defeated not long after. Also, SkyClan and ShadowClan merged because Rowanstar stepped down and gave his territory to Leafstar, his confidence gone after Tigerheart left.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2019 19:59:37 GMT -5
Oh right, was he around when Darktail was collecting people to join his kin? Or wait, that's why ShadowClan merged with SkyClan? I don't really remember much from this series, except a few small scenes, but nothing major No, that was before. And anyway, he was recruiting kittypets. SkyClan had arrived at the lake sometime after Needletail's death and Violetpaw had just escaped to ThunderClan. Darktail was defeated not long after. Also, SkyClan and ShadowClan merged because Rowanstar stepped down and gave his territory to Leafstar, his confidence gone after Tigerheart left. Oh wow, I thought all that happened after SkyClan got there, well, not the whole thing, just Darktail following Alderheart's crew back to the forest. I'm like this with pretty much every book, I remember minor things, like Twigbranch and the feather, Brackenfur saving Marshkit, Jayfeather calling Brightheart and Longtail second rate warriors, Tornear telling Firestar that even though he's young, he'd make a great warrior, Cloudtail calling Thornclaw dumb, and yeah
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 5, 2019 20:05:35 GMT -5
No, that was before. And anyway, he was recruiting kittypets. SkyClan had arrived at the lake sometime after Needletail's death and Violetpaw had just escaped to ThunderClan. Darktail was defeated not long after. Also, SkyClan and ShadowClan merged because Rowanstar stepped down and gave his territory to Leafstar, his confidence gone after Tigerheart left. Oh wow, I thought all that happened after SkyClan got there, well, not the whole thing, just Darktail following Alderheart's crew back to the forest. I'm like this with pretty much every book, I remember minor things, like Twigbranch and the feather, Brackenfur saving Marshkit, Jayfeather calling Brightheart and Longtail second rate warriors, Tornear telling Firestar that even though he's young, he'd make a great warrior, Cloudtail calling Thornclaw dumb, and yeah Definitely not. SkyClan doesn't even appear until more than halfway through SS, when Twigpaw finds them.
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Post by sylveon on Aug 5, 2019 20:06:21 GMT -5
There is literally no reason for it other than drama. But if we want to get into in-universe reasons, it seems like he genuinely thought that kits would make him feel like he belonged in ThunderClan. The problem is that he never gave any sort of indication that he ever felt this way in RoF and had already fit in quite well in ThunderClan anyway, so it just makes it look like it came out of nowhere. If you think of it his character wasn't really stable to begin with. In Darkest Night, he was a loyal, bubbly cat with lots of promise. He'd already been an apprentice for quite some time at this point. Of course, his injury set him back but by the end of the book he had already made progress in learning new techniques to deal with the loss of half is tail. Suddenly, in RoF, he seems air-headed and at the skill level of a brand new apprentice. Its strange, as if they didn't know exactly how they wanted to write him.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 5, 2019 20:10:27 GMT -5
There is literally no reason for it other than drama. But if we want to get into in-universe reasons, it seems like he genuinely thought that kits would make him feel like he belonged in ThunderClan. The problem is that he never gave any sort of indication that he ever felt this way in RoF and had already fit in quite well in ThunderClan anyway, so it just makes it look like it came out of nowhere. If you think of it his character wasn't really stable to begin with. In Darkest Night, he was a loyal, bubbly cat with lots of promise. He'd already been an apprentice for quite some time at this point. Of course, his injury set him back but by the end of the book he had already made progress in learning new techniques to deal with the loss of half is tail. Suddenly, in RoF, he seems air-headed and at the skill level of a brand new apprentice. Its strange, as if they didn't know exactly how they wanted to write him. True, although I was more willing to forgive those two instances since he's still a young cat, so I didn't think much of it and it didn't seem as in-your-face compared to him suddenly pressuring Twigbranch to have his kits and getting jealous of her talking to Tree. He was just really gross in that book and just made the book disturbing to read.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 5, 2019 21:18:46 GMT -5
I actually called this from a mile away. I said that Finleap just up and leaving clans at a young age for a she-cat no less was a bad idea. It had me worried about the upcoming drama that could follow, and sure enough, it did. It's not that Finleap suddenly changed, but he just continued down his path of development, and that's just how he turned out. He made big choices he shouldn't even have made yet, like running away, thinking Twig as his mate, and then expecting them to have kits just like that, and pushing for them when she was clearly not ready. If anything the Erins were pushing to make Finleap seem more mature when it came to mentoring, and Twig when it came to romance. They were coming from two different points of understanding which made their relationship complicating from the get-go. So I'm not sure why people are so surprised this happened, there were signs it could go down hill and it did.
At least with Bumblestripe, it's different. Dovewing used him to get over Tigerheart, he wasn't even aware she was seeing him at the same time he was trying to court her. And then she suddenly dumps him, he didn't even know about her powers (I think? until after she lost them???) he was just trying to do his best from a standpoint that he was capable of. So when Dove suddenly shows up with another toms kits he's upset, and rightfully so, but accepts it. He deserves better anyways, and Dove's lack of communication really didn't help. Twigbranch actually spoke up about how she felt, put her paw down, and Finleap had to accept that, and eventually did, so she forgave him soon after. Doesn't mean everything he said is swept under the rug, but they can learn to compromise now at least. Communication is the key to a relationship along side trust and friendship.
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Post by mymerlincat on Aug 5, 2019 23:16:19 GMT -5
I actually called this from a mile away. I said that Finleap just up and leaving clans at a young age for a she-cat no less was a bad idea. It had me worried about the upcoming drama that could follow, and sure enough, it did. It's not that Finleap suddenly changed, but he just continued down his path of development, and that's just how he turned out. He made big choices he shouldn't even have made yet, like running away, thinking Twig as his mate, and then expecting them to have kits just like that, and pushing for them when she was clearly not ready. If anything the Erins were pushing to make Finleap seem more mature when it came to mentoring, and Twig when it came to romance. They were coming from two different points of understanding which made their relationship complicating from the get-go. So I'm not sure why people are so surprised this happened, there were signs it could go down hill and it did. At least with Bumblestripe, it's different. Dovewing used him to get over Tigerheart, he wasn't even aware she was seeing him at the same time he was trying to court her. And then she suddenly dumps him, he didn't even know about her powers (I think? until after she lost them???) he was just trying to do his best from a standpoint that he was capable of. So when Dove suddenly shows up with another toms kits he's upset, and rightfully so, but accepts it. He deserves better anyways, and Dove's lack of communication really didn't help. Twigbranch actually spoke up about how she felt, put her paw down, and Finleap had to accept that, and eventually did, so she forgave him soon after. Doesn't mean everything he said is swept under the rug, but they can learn to compromise now at least. Communication is the key to a relationship along side trust and friendship. How do you know Dovewing didn’t communicate with Bumblestripe? She does not have a POV in Bramblestar’s Storm, which is when their fallout happens.
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Post by Dancing_Totodile on Aug 6, 2019 23:52:43 GMT -5
I actually called this from a mile away. I said that Finleap just up and leaving clans at a young age for a she-cat no less was a bad idea. It had me worried about the upcoming drama that could follow, and sure enough, it did. It's not that Finleap suddenly changed, but he just continued down his path of development, and that's just how he turned out. He made big choices he shouldn't even have made yet, like running away, thinking Twig as his mate, and then expecting them to have kits just like that, and pushing for them when she was clearly not ready. If anything the Erins were pushing to make Finleap seem more mature when it came to mentoring, and Twig when it came to romance. They were coming from two different points of understanding which made their relationship complicating from the get-go. So I'm not sure why people are so surprised this happened, there were signs it could go down hill and it did. At least with Bumblestripe, it's different. Dovewing used him to get over Tigerheart, he wasn't even aware she was seeing him at the same time he was trying to court her. And then she suddenly dumps him, he didn't even know about her powers (I think? until after she lost them???) he was just trying to do his best from a standpoint that he was capable of. So when Dove suddenly shows up with another toms kits he's upset, and rightfully so, but accepts it. He deserves better anyways, and Dove's lack of communication really didn't help. Twigbranch actually spoke up about how she felt, put her paw down, and Finleap had to accept that, and eventually did, so she forgave him soon after. Doesn't mean everything he said is swept under the rug, but they can learn to compromise now at least. Communication is the key to a relationship along side trust and friendship. How do you know Dovewing didn’t communicate with Bumblestripe? She does not have a POV in Bramblestar’s Storm, which is when their fallout happens. Very true.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 7, 2019 1:02:28 GMT -5
I actually called this from a mile away. I said that Finleap just up and leaving clans at a young age for a she-cat no less was a bad idea. It had me worried about the upcoming drama that could follow, and sure enough, it did. It's not that Finleap suddenly changed, but he just continued down his path of development, and that's just how he turned out. He made big choices he shouldn't even have made yet, like running away, thinking Twig as his mate, and then expecting them to have kits just like that, and pushing for them when she was clearly not ready. If anything the Erins were pushing to make Finleap seem more mature when it came to mentoring, and Twig when it came to romance. They were coming from two different points of understanding which made their relationship complicating from the get-go. So I'm not sure why people are so surprised this happened, there were signs it could go down hill and it did. At least with Bumblestripe, it's different. Dovewing used him to get over Tigerheart, he wasn't even aware she was seeing him at the same time he was trying to court her. And then she suddenly dumps him, he didn't even know about her powers (I think? until after she lost them???) he was just trying to do his best from a standpoint that he was capable of. So when Dove suddenly shows up with another toms kits he's upset, and rightfully so, but accepts it. He deserves better anyways, and Dove's lack of communication really didn't help. Twigbranch actually spoke up about how she felt, put her paw down, and Finleap had to accept that, and eventually did, so she forgave him soon after. Doesn't mean everything he said is swept under the rug, but they can learn to compromise now at least. Communication is the key to a relationship along side trust and friendship. How do you know Dovewing didn’t communicate with Bumblestripe? She does not have a POV in Bramblestar’s Storm, which is when their fallout happens. I'm talking about their relationship as a whole, not just BrS. Dovewing finds out about Bumblestripe's feelings in SoTM, when he's friendly toward her at a gathering, and then later Blossomfall tells her that she stole his heart, but she insists that he probably doesn't see her that way. This is the same gathering where she breaks up with Tigerheart after he betrayed her trust, but she's still in love with him.
In TFW, Bumble Cinderheart gives her advice to get to know Bumblestripe better despite her rejecting his first invitation. After their talk she goes out on a walk with him, and finds out her powers are back after the trauma she went through in the mountains. And after that she ends up getting closer to Bumble. In the same book, when he chooses Dove over Blossom for training, he tells her that he hoped there was more than friendship between them, but this surprises Bumble and to this point she never considered the idea of them being mates. At least seriously. However the way she thinks of it is that she couldn't have Tigerheart but she could have Bumblestripe because they were in the same clan. Though she's clearly not over Tigerheart, she thinks of Bumblestripe as an option now.
What bothers me is that despite knowing about his feelings prior, she could have just shut him down then. She had a good opportunity when Bumblestripe said he hoped for more than friendship, she could have corrected him and rejected him then. Especially because she was still in love with Tigerheart, and Bumblestripe isn't even aware he has competition, neither did the rest of ThunderClan.
Bumblestripe invites her on a walk in TLH, but she invites Foxleap because she didn't want to be alone with him. Then tells the other two to go ahead of her because Tigerheart had trespass just to see her again and they agree to see one another, starting up their relationship, yet again. While waiting for the gathering Bumblestripe offers her a mouse, but she doesn't want it and tells him to eat it himself, she was too busy think about Tigerheart. Then when she bumps into him cause she's so distracted on the way to the gathering, he points it out, she snaps at him and tells him to watch where he's going, and pretty much at this point Bumblestripe had had it and leaves away from her. Pretty much up to this point, he thinks she's not interested, but it's not like she ever gave him an actual clear answer. She didn't. Rosepetal tells her to apologies, she does, but Bumblestripe rejects her. Ironically after the gathering he catches her alone with Tigerheart, she lies about why she's seeing him, but he just simply says he doesn't care what she does. So at this point he doesn't care what Dovewing does, and is giving her "space" like she wanted.
After the final battle Bumblestripe comforts her during Firestar's death, and she accepts his comfort by laying her head on his shoulder. She doesn't look at Tigerheart as he leaves, so to the readers this is the best indication that they became mates, despite their being no solid answer until BrS.
In DWS Bumblestripe and her talk about the punishment of the DF trainees, where he believes they deserve punishment, Dovewing doesn't, but she convinces him to see it a different way. Unlike he, Bumble and most of TC were in the dark about the trainees and their betrayal, so his opinion on the matter is pretty understandable. There's other small moments like Dovewing almost falling over but Bumblestripe catching her and saying he'd always catch her. Them sitting together at gatherings and agreeing about all the change the DF battle had done. Them catching Blossomfall sneaking out, but Dovewing lied to him saying she was going to make dirt so that she could follow her after. (Seems she does a lot of little fibs when she's around him.) And Bumblestripe thanking Dovewing for her hard work at the end of the novel.
In the novel there's not much trouble going on, in fact, they're getting along just fine.
In BrS, it's when things do start to change. At the start of the book it shows Bumblestripe comforting her and asking if she's okay, she accept his comfort and says she's fine. She's struggling to adjust without her powers and he's doing his best to be there for her.
When they're out with Seedpaw, Dovewing does a good job in cheering up Bumblestripe's apprentice and Bumblestripe compliments her, saying she'd be a good mother one day. But she pulls away, which came off as cold and hurt Bumblestripe. She changes the subject saying they should focus on the flood. Even Bramblestar was wondering if something had happened between them.
Bumblestripe find her trying to figure out her powers in a tunnel and leads Bramblestar to her because he's worried. But instead of communicating with Bumblestripe about what she's feeling and going through, she does it with Bramblestar. She expresses to him how she feels about the changes and how hard it is to get around without her powers. She confesses her anguish to her leader, but for some reason not to her own mate who's clearly worried about her. Then when Bumblestripe is nervous and asks her if she's mad about him involving Bramblestar she says she's not before leaving without a second glance, coming off as cold yet again.
Then after this the next time we hear about Bumblestripe and Dovewing, she breaks up with him, and the two are awkwardly on opposite sides of the camp eating alone. Prior to that she was fighting along side Tigerheart in the final battle against the badgers instead of being with Bumbestripe. Whether it was intentional or not, her connection with Tigerheart was so obvious at this point even Bramblestar noticed it at the end of the book when he's looking at her and she's purposely avoiding his gaze.
Despite what happened, breaking up with Bumblestripe and whatnot, she still decides to fall back on their relationship so she could deter herself from Tigerheart, as shown in TAS. It's noted that while Tigerheart is in TC sheltering with Tawny and Rowan, that he's openly looking at her but she's deeply in a conversation with Bumblestripe of all cats.
In SS she goes out on a walk with Bumblestripe after arguing with Ivypool, and he's still friendly to her despite what happened. Even said they made the best team and she ends up second thinking about breaking up with him, wondering if it was a mistake. But before he could say more she hurries back to camp with their catch.
When they get back and Purdy dies, this scene is interesting. Because in a way, it's similar to the last scene these two have together in TLH. When Firestar dies, it's Bumblestripe that comforts her, and she accepts this and they soon become mates. But this time she goes off alone and he follows and tries to comfort her, it makes sense, they used to be mates, and he's done it before, not to mention they were literally just together on a walk. He suggests starting again because he wants to rekindle their relationship, especially because he views life as "short". On the other hand Dovewing snaps at him, already annoyed that he followed and told him that Darktail was still a threat and now wasn't the time for kits. But Bumblestripe insists that it could give them all a reason to fight harder. He asks her to think about it at least.
Ironically she runs into Tigerheart, and tells him what happens, and he agrees that they're at the age when they think about kits, and she doesn't have nearly as much as a reaction to that than she did with Bumblestripe.
She agrees with the quest for Twig just to avoid Bumblestripe, and feels guilty about it. She says she'll work things out later, but right now she only cared about being by Tigerheart's side. Meanwhile Bumblestripe is left waiting. At this point we never get any indication she ever did talk things out with Bumblestripe, ever.
Cause the last thing we get from those two after this is the jump to RoF when Bumblestripe gets his answer through her having kits with another tom from a different clan. Yikes. Despite the situation, Bumblestripe was glad she was okay and returned safely, but couldn't suppress the hurt in his voice.
With that being said. In a lot of instances it's Dovewing either doesn't speak to Bumblestripe about how she feels, or expressing it to someone else instead. Dovewing straight up just avoiding him by any means necessary or snapping at him. Or Dovewing internally juggling the idea of being with him only when it feels convenient and then going back to Tigerheart, the cat she never got over from the start. Meaning Bumble never had a chance from the start. There's a lack of communication whenever these two are on screen together and it's frustrating. Imo, Bumblestripe literally wore his feelings on his sleeve when it came to Dovewing. His intentions were always clear, and even when he wasn't head over heels with her and sick of her treating him like a scratching post, he made that clear too. Dovewing on the other hand, not so much, there were a lot of little fibs in-between from her side as well. Bumblestripe had always been honest about his feelings and he never had a POV period. Meanwhile the same couldn't be said for Dovewing. The only time she probably ever did sit down and communicate with Bumblestripe properly and in a mature manner was when they broke up, we didn't even see that on screen. And even then, that's just us giving her the benefit of the doubt. So based on what we have seen in the actual story on screen Dovewing has a clear lack of communication effort toward Bumblestripe. Or at least to me, it's very easily, and clearly shown that way.
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