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Post by Amberfoot on May 3, 2019 11:30:31 GMT -5
I know this has been mentioned before but....what a huge disappointment! The story itself was a little off (I wasn't buying Tigerclaw's personality to be honest) but when they completely shuttered the first half of the first arc's plot with the ending, I just could barely finish it.
Maybe it's because I just did a read-through of The Prophecy Begins, but man...it's almost as if Clarissa (?) or whomever wrote/edited that short story didn't even READ the first series. It was so controversial about what happened with Oakheart that Fireheart literally went to RiverClan to find out exactly what happened to PROVE to Bluestar about Tigerclaw's intentions. With Redtail actually KILLING Oakheart in this novella, just entirely went against everything that revealed Tigerclaw's ill intentions, the reason for Ravenpaw escaping, and ultimately the reason that Bluestar refused to believe the retelling in the first place.
This was 90% of the reason why I was extremely disappointed in this book because...well, I mean, I don't even know how to take it seriously after reading the ending.
I'm also disappointed because they skipped over that vital time gap, again, where we don't see Dust, Sand, and Raven born or as kits, we don't see Longtail's apprenticeship or birth, or even Darkstripe's. We didn't even get mention of Thistleclaw's death. Not to mention, we didn't get any indication that Sandstorm was his daughter. Now I'm pretty sure that there won't be another novella or super edition in that era, so I suppose all of that will remain a mystery...
Anyways, rant over haha.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on May 3, 2019 12:35:56 GMT -5
Yeah, it was disappointing. And I think Ravenpaw was a bit out of character as well. He seemed too confident for being a frightened cat.
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on May 3, 2019 13:04:50 GMT -5
Tigerclaw was so obviously evil in this book that I wonder why Bluestar ever made him deputy.
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Post by Sea Drops by a Bird on May 3, 2019 13:13:36 GMT -5
The two biggest issues with this novella were Tigerclaw's portrayal and Redtail killing Oakheart. It was covered multiple times that it didn't happen that way, so why revise it now? It made me dislike an otherwise likable novella. And Tigerclaw...the point of him was that he was the "wolf in sheeps clothing" villain which he had to be because everyone trusted and respected him and refused to believe anything Fireheart would say- so having him bounce around shouting "I'm evil! look at me I'm evil! I'll probably kill you!!" the whole story made no sense. It's almost like Redtail's Debt exists in a world where The first arc doesn't.
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Post by Amberfoot on May 3, 2019 13:33:02 GMT -5
Definitely agree about Ravenpaw. I remember Bluestar saying she choose Ravenpaw as Tigerclaw's apprentice because he was skittish and nervous and she had hoped it would help bring him out of his shell. For them to portray Ravenpaw the way they did doesn't fit in with his personality at all (and it would make me wonder how Bluestar as a leader wouldn't have realized such a drastic personality change in Ravenpaw vs. before the Oakheart/Redtail thing happened). Not to mention she was pretty good in determining that Thistleclaw was a fan of fighting, it's a surprise she didn't see Tigerclaw growing very alike Thistleclaw in the years since she became leader.
I just hope to believe that the first arc is cannon in the way that Tigerclaw was a well-respected senior warrior with dark intentions that were incredibly well hidden. His only slip up was letting Ravenpaw see what happened at the battle. I would assume it was just a regular patrol that took them to Sunningrocks, and that he didn't intentionally make Ravenpaw come with him, because as stated in the first arc, Tigerclaw did not care for Ravenpaw much.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 13:39:53 GMT -5
I haven't read the book yet, but from what I've seen, I probably don't want to, I will eventually, but I'm not looking THAT forward to it. I was interesting to see how Darkstripe was as a kit/apprentice and trying to figure out if he was born that way, or if it was as a result of being Tigerclaw's apprentice (I think it'd be cool if he got a novella or something.) I was also curious to know more about Redtail, the supposed father of one of the most important characters in the series. I'm also a little disappointed in the Ravenpaw personality thing, did they ever mention that he and Dustpelt were littermates in this book? Back to Darkstripe, since it's physically impossible for Tawnyspots to be his father, or he could be his father, and Willowpelt not be his mother, and he's older than we think. I don't know, I just want to know more about these characters we know little about, put play a pretty significant part in the plot.
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Post by *Faith* on May 3, 2019 14:58:47 GMT -5
I liked Redtail's POV. He was pretty cute. I didn't like the ending though (the retcon).
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Post by wildbreeze on May 4, 2019 23:22:52 GMT -5
Yeah... This story does have a good amount of problems. However, decided go back to books to get the full context of the novella's problems, mainly do think it is Clarissa's fault entirely.
1) Ravenpaw's behavior This problem is probably the easiest. He simply want to impress Tigerclaw. Yes, it is mention that Bluestar's Super edition to help instill courage into the nervous and Tigerstar bully him because he thought he was coward. However, Tigerclaw is still a respected warrior and loved by everyone. in Battles of the Clans, we see from Dustpelt's story that Ravenpaw wasn't afraid him or even that nervous. The only shown is that Ravenpaw's has low-esteem and Tigerclaw has no repect for him. Despite him being one of the older apprentices, it mention the fight for Suningrocks was his first battle Ravenpaw probably thought he could show his mentor that he wasn't failure.
2) Tigerclaw's behavior Honestly i'm sure if it just they're too used to how he acts is omen of the stars (where you need to hide the evil) or what. The first three chapters of story do seem in line with TPB Tigerclaw, charming but sneaky but disappear by chapter 5. He so obvious with violence intent I wonder if he ever try to reel it back.
I feel it may be because they were trying to show a parallel them similar to Bluestar and Thistleclaw. Bluestar was cat who wasn't big on fighting and everything she could counter Thistleclaw blood-hungry nature. they are very similar relationship with only different being that Redtail like Tigerclaw at the start, Tigerclaw save his life and Tigerclaw was willing to kill to get what he wanted.
3) Time-gap I HATE IT!!!!! Maybe they're trying to avoid give a direct to the main arc to minimize error and open more story opportunities, but really? You made it Tawnyspots may not be Darkstripe's dad anymore unless Willowpelt pull Ferncloud, and got pregnant before she even a year old.
4) Redtail's death Okay, the big one, going to to come right out and say it. Technically, the death has been recon since in 2010 with Battles of the Clans. So Redtail been Oakheart killer for 9 years now but either everyone just forgot or because Tigerstar was telling the story no one pay attention.
Now I think Clarissa did read the books or at least started to, cause she has a lot of small details from Into the Wild that she easily excluded like Tigerclaw taking three cats at once, the battle keep going after Oakheart's death, Redtail flung a warrior off Tigerclaw by his tail and indirect mentioning Stonefur. The problems is she using details from field guide not mainline books. Oakheart died of wounds in that story. The field guide version is actually a lot worse, saying Tigerclaw was hiding in creak in Sunningrocks to watch the battle, quick battle that make Oakheart died of wounds has he given so many wounds he bleed out, Redtail actually proud of killing, and it make sound they were the only three cats there. No patrol. No Ravenpaw.
While The route they chose for the books work better the individual story, you spat three books of the series. All that was need was to change three things: - make it so Stonefur was one attacking Ravenpaw, as the reason Oakheart were fighting with Redtail was because he hurting Stonefur. - make sure Ravenpaw is push into the creak to conversation between the deputies and put conversation there -Redtail brutally wound Oakheart, flung against Sunningrocks and cause what cause Rockslide.
It let have the punch without ruin older books, even make that hard to tell if wounds or rocks by mention that Oakheart wasn't moving. That it really up to the readers what it and the first three books only slightly irrelevant.
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Post by Showers on May 5, 2019 1:11:55 GMT -5
i loved that redtail killed oakheart. redtail is shown to be a lot like firestar when he was alive, preferring to take care of his clanmates than fighting. it was satisfying seeing redtail antagonized by tigerstar, for his entire life, before redtail was finally pushed to kill because of him. i don't like that this was retconned, i just wished it happened along, like back in the first book. also, there are retcons in nearly every prequeal novella/se. it's expected at this point, at least, for me.
the timeskip and the non-confirming of sandstorm being his daughter were really disappointing. but i liked it a lot despite it's errors.
am i the only one?
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Post by morningflower on May 5, 2019 1:39:48 GMT -5
Reading Redtail's Debt actually made me wonder if a scenario like the one Tigerclaw utilised could even happen in the Clans as they are now. I find it hard to believe that in the modern Clans, none of the cats from ThunderClan would have antagonised RC cats or brought up the fact that Oakheart supposedly murdered Redtail at a gathering. Of course, out of universe, this was because the code hadn't been set in stone yet, and it didn't seem as taboo to kill another cat as it was after that rule was established. However, in universe, it seems like the Clans have improved their communication somewhat.
I don't think this retcon made anything make more sense in retrospect, though, and I just have to believe the author/editor in charge of this one never read the first arc.
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Post by Leafshine on May 5, 2019 11:43:23 GMT -5
In the first arc it was said that Oakheart was killed by falling stone if i remember correctly, i like this version more than Redtail killing him, it made it twice worse and sad for him to give in to Tigerclaws emotional blackmail in this way. Besides it was odd that he seemed to care for his kin which was described by the bond he had with his sister's, especially Willowpelt, but still Sandstorm wasn't mentioned or acknowledged as his daughter. Overall it was an okay short story and i like Redtail.
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Post by Tas on May 6, 2019 9:41:18 GMT -5
The whole book was really just terrible.
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Post by Dancing_Totodile on May 7, 2019 8:48:35 GMT -5
i loved that redtail killed oakheart. redtail is shown to be a lot like firestar when he was alive, preferring to take care of his clanmates than fighting. it was satisfying seeing redtail antagonized by tigerstar, for his entire life, before redtail was finally pushed to kill because of him. i don't like that this was retconned, i just wished it happened along, like back in the first book. also, there are retcons in nearly every prequeal novella/se. it's expected at this point, at least, for me. the timeskip and the non-confirming of sandstorm being his daughter were really disappointing. but i liked it a lot despite it's errors. am i the only one? No I liked it as well.
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Post by Amberfoot on May 7, 2019 12:52:04 GMT -5
I did like it, but I feel like instead of adding depth into the Warriors universe, it just added confusion instead. I guess I can see what happened with Ravenpaw, but I still don't see how Bluestar wouldn't recognize such a dramatic change in one of her apprentices.
I do agree though that I think the series has taken more of a turn in the way that if Oakheart had died from another cat killing him, that it surely would have been addressed at a gathering. I remember even before anyone had found out about Brokenstar killing Raggedstar, Yellowfang had said he had just been killed by a patrol from another clan. Which in today's warriors universe, I'm sure something like that wouldn't fly (if it were true).
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