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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 12, 2019 23:21:36 GMT -5
Leopardstar didn't order her cats to kill apprentices. It was Tigerstar, this doesn't take away the blame of liability, but it does make it clear she wasn't bloodthirsty about killing apprentices. Also she literally expressed guilt for that even in her older times of life and made Misty deputy to make up for it. No leader is perfect, but Leaopardstar went out of her way to try and better herself as a leader, even if she made crappy decisions. Same with Blackstar, despite him being quite merciless in some circumstances. Also, it's quite ironic, because Crookedstar literally did something very similar when Brokenstar was leader, and willingly let ShadowClan trample on their lands, yet I barely hear a peep about his actions as a leader tbh. Considering Leopardstar is his successor, it really does draw that connection. What I find interesting is that we've been talking about crappy ShadowClan leaders, yet imo, Crookedstar is pretty up there too, especially with his constant fights against both WindClan and especially ThunderClan. ShadowClan isn't the only clan with a certain type of cultural behavior, all clans have that. "For a heartbeat Leopardstar looked uncertain, and again Firestar began to hope that she would take a stand against Tigerstar and stop the destruction of her Clan. But he had underestimated the strength of her ambition, and her misguided faith that Tigerstar offered an invincible future. “These are difficult times,” she meowed at last. “As we fight for survival we must be able to count on every one of our Clan mates. There is no room for divided loyalties. Do as Tigerstar tells you.”" Leopardstar did in fact give the command. She was echoing Tigerstar, but repeating orders is still giving those orders. The fact that she wasn't bloodthirsty about it is kind of irrelevant. Her tone is very unimportant to the actual message of the words. Feeling guiltabout doing it years later is great and all, but it rings hollow in the face of her not showing any during the actual period of Tigerclan. It was too little, too late. Yes, no leader is perfect, but most leaders don't order their deputies to murder apprentices either. She stands out far and beyond among other leaders when it comes to being imperfect. I don't like Crookedstar, for the record. I think he's incredibly overrated and a slimy political opportunist who is probably the person to instill that utterly unprincipled behavior into Leopardstar. He attacked Windclan as well for zero reason(Nightstar had an excuse, Crookedstar had none beyond greed). That being said, for all of Crookedstar's faults, he is nowhere near Leopardstar levels of awful. He gave up a small piece of land, Leopardstar gave up the entire territory AND the clan inside of it.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 13, 2019 1:27:37 GMT -5
Leopardstar didn't order her cats to kill apprentices. It was Tigerstar, this doesn't take away the blame of liability, but it does make it clear she wasn't bloodthirsty about killing apprentices. Also she literally expressed guilt for that even in her older times of life and made Misty deputy to make up for it. No leader is perfect, but Leaopardstar went out of her way to try and better herself as a leader, even if she made crappy decisions. Same with Blackstar, despite him being quite merciless in some circumstances. Also, it's quite ironic, because Crookedstar literally did something very similar when Brokenstar was leader, and willingly let ShadowClan trample on their lands, yet I barely hear a peep about his actions as a leader tbh. Considering Leopardstar is his successor, it really does draw that connection. What I find interesting is that we've been talking about crappy ShadowClan leaders, yet imo, Crookedstar is pretty up there too, especially with his constant fights against both WindClan and especially ThunderClan. ShadowClan isn't the only clan with a certain type of cultural behavior, all clans have that. "For a heartbeat Leopardstar looked uncertain, and again Firestar began to hope that she would take a stand against Tigerstar and stop the destruction of her Clan. But he had underestimated the strength of her ambition, and her misguided faith that Tigerstar offered an invincible future. “These are difficult times,” she meowed at last. “As we fight for survival we must be able to count on every one of our Clan mates. There is no room for divided loyalties. Do as Tigerstar tells you.”" Leopardstar did in fact give the command. She was echoing Tigerstar, but repeating orders is still giving those orders. The fact that she wasn't bloodthirsty about it is kind of irrelevant. Her tone is very unimportant to the actual message of the words. Feeling guiltabout doing it years later is great and all, but it rings hollow in the face of her not showing any during the actual period of Tigerclan. It was too little, too late. Yes, no leader is perfect, but most leaders don't order their deputies to murder apprentices either. She stands out far and beyond among other leaders when it comes to being imperfect. I don't like Crookedstar, for the record. I think he's incredibly overrated and a slimy political opportunist who is probably the person to instill that utterly unprincipled behavior into Leopardstar. He attacked Windclan as well for zero reason(Nightstar had an excuse, Crookedstar had none beyond greed). That being said, for all of Crookedstar's faults, he is nowhere near Leopardstar levels of awful. He gave up a small piece of land, Leopardstar gave up the entire territory AND the clan inside of it. Fair enough. Agree to disagree.
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Post by Sea Drops by a Bird on Mar 13, 2019 21:24:32 GMT -5
I never thought of Leopardstar or Blackstar as bad leaders. I think the reason most people do is because they're looking at it through the lens of what makes a good leader for ThunderClan who's supposed to be the moral center of the forest. Leopardstar definitely wasn't perfect and she made mistakes in the beginning, but remember just like Bluestar and all of ThunderClan, she saw how strong and charismatic Tigerstar was and wanted to rule alongside him. Blackstar wasn't trying to destroy his clan. in TNP he, like everyone else, was afraid. Like everyone else the clans were losing their home, cats were dissapearing left and right and nothing seemed certain anymore. No one was 100% on traveling across the mountains to find a new home and he wasn't the only one exploring other options. He wanted to stay close to home, to what he knew. He sent cats to scout out the twolegplace with the goal that they would reconstitute bloodclan as ShadowClan and he would lead. That was actually a practical plan- he knew it would work. It also was in motion before Tawnypelt returned. This journey to a new place that they maybe might find wasn't a sure thing and they needed a solution now because time was of the essence. As far as Sol goes him turning away from StarClan for an entire book (I would have liked it if they actually explored this more) was because Sol did what a lot of manipulators do- sell you on half truths. Like he predicted the sun would dissapear but return, but it was only because Midnight told him so. He talked about all the things StarClan didn't save them from and spoke to his frustrations overall while ignoring that StarClan isn't your personal butler. It was an interesting plot point but it didn't amount to much since it was contained and resolved in one book so we never got to see how it might actually impact ShadowClan, Blackstar or the other clans. Leopardstar is a horrid leader. Arguably the worst non-Shadowclan leader. A good leader doesn't order the murder of apprentices, doesn't allow their clan's territory to be plundered and desecrated by Shadowclan, doesn't let their deputy get murdered without so much as a peep in complaint. Oh, and then cheers when he dies too. Thunderclan morality has very little to do with becoming Tigerstar's loyal lapdog and allowing Riverclan to suffer while Shadowclan got fat off their spoils. Even from an amoral point of view, she was a bad leader because she was allowing her own clan to diminish and be abused at Shadowclan's leisure. One can make excuses about her being taken in by Tigerstar's vision, but the bad part wasn't being taken in by it; it was continuing to believe it even as he made her speak words ordering apprentices to die. I know it would have never happened because they were Graystripe's kits but i wonder if she would have really allowed them to kill Featherpaw and Stormpaw. Stonefur was different; I think that with him, she and her clan were still dealing with the revelation that they were Bluestar's and so she was on board with him having to prove his loyalty in battle, though I'm also curious if she would have let him kill the apprentice's to do so. I think with her, she didn't really know what she was getting herself into. She didn't know the kind of cat Tigerstar was or how far he would go until he'd gone too far and she was already in too deep. I never got though why she would watch as Stonefur was killed for being half-clan and do nothing to speak up for him but then ask Mistyfoot to take his place 3 days later. It is worth mentioning that Firestar says that the Leopardstar he found when he went to recruit them to fight against BloodClan was a shell of the cat he once knew, and that even she looked defeated without Tigerstar. It's unclear what the nature of their relationship was; I don't know if she idolized him or if it was something more but she obviously put a lot of faith in his ability to be great and help her make her clan the same. It was only realizing that he was in it for self and her ego made her easy to manipulate that she was able to change. But overall, Leopardstar was a good leader for her clan. She had a rough start but that doesn't then mean her entire leadership was trash. She was power hungry and eager to make her clan strong to the point where it blinded her to the reality of who and what she'd gotten herself into. Ego can do that to you. Unfortunately her realizing this came at the cost of Stonefur's life. she had to accept that she caused this mess because she was arrogant, and that she had unknowingly given up her clan to a cat who didn't care if they all died as long as he had power. The turn around was relatively quick after that- Tigerstar was killed by scourge like a day or two later, she took over and then disbanded TigerClan and sent the ShadowClan cats back to their territory, they all fought against BloodClan and she went on to have a strong leadership. She still remained proud, but she learned what happens when you fly to close to the sun. The role TC plays in this is simple; they were our introduction into the warriors world, and thus became the standard for what a clan is and how they should act. So when we judge what is and isn't right or acceptable we're doing it through the lens of TC as the default.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 13, 2019 22:26:52 GMT -5
Leopardstar is a horrid leader. Arguably the worst non-Shadowclan leader. A good leader doesn't order the murder of apprentices, doesn't allow their clan's territory to be plundered and desecrated by Shadowclan, doesn't let their deputy get murdered without so much as a peep in complaint. Oh, and then cheers when he dies too. Thunderclan morality has very little to do with becoming Tigerstar's loyal lapdog and allowing Riverclan to suffer while Shadowclan got fat off their spoils. Even from an amoral point of view, she was a bad leader because she was allowing her own clan to diminish and be abused at Shadowclan's leisure. One can make excuses about her being taken in by Tigerstar's vision, but the bad part wasn't being taken in by it; it was continuing to believe it even as he made her speak words ordering apprentices to die. I know it would have never happened because they were Graystripe's kits but i wonder if she would have really allowed them to kill Featherpaw and Stormpaw. Stonefur was different; I think that with him, she and her clan were still dealing with the revelation that they were Bluestar's and so she was on board with him having to prove his loyalty in battle, though I'm also curious if she would have let him kill the apprentice's to do so. I think with her, she didn't really know what she was getting herself into. She didn't know the kind of cat Tigerstar was or how far he would go until he'd gone too far and she was already in too deep. I never got though why she would watch as Stonefur was killed for being half-clan and do nothing to speak up for him but then ask Mistyfoot to take his place 3 days later. It is worth mentioning that Firestar says that the Leopardstar he found when he went to recruit them to fight against BloodClan was a shell of the cat he once knew, and that even she looked defeated without Tigerstar. It's unclear what the nature of their relationship was; I don't know if she idolized him or if it was something more but she obviously put a lot of faith in his ability to be great and help her make her clan the same. It was only realizing that he was in it for self and her ego made her easy to manipulate that she was able to change. But overall, Leopardstar was a good leader for her clan. She had a rough start but that doesn't then mean her entire leadership was trash. She was power hungry and eager to make her clan strong to the point where it blinded her to the reality of who and what she'd gotten herself into. Ego can do that to you. Unfortunately her realizing this came at the cost of Stonefur's life. she had to accept that she caused this mess because she was arrogant, and that she had unknowingly given up her clan to a cat who didn't care if they all died as long as he had power. The turn around was relatively quick after that- Tigerstar was killed by scourge like a day or two later, she took over and then disbanded TigerClan and sent the ShadowClan cats back to their territory, they all fought against BloodClan and she went on to have a strong leadership. She still remained proud, but she learned what happens when you fly to close to the sun. The role TC plays in this is simple; they were our introduction into the warriors world, and thus became the standard for what a clan is and how they should act. So when we judge what is and isn't right or acceptable we're doing it through the lens of TC as the default. The idea that Leopardstar got in too deep assumes that she simply lacked the power to fight back. The problem is that she did. She still had her whole clan at her command and she could have fought back at any time or simply said "no". No, what Leopardstar did was be a willing collaborator to Tigerstar's crimes. She didn't have a claw pressed to the back of her head forcing her to do these things, she wasn't entirely alone and powerless, she had every opportunity to not do these things and she did not take them. Leopardstar being overall a good leader just because she was only given the opportunity to colossally mess up one time seems off to me. If someone killed someone but then didn't kill anybody else, would they be called a good person? Leopardstar doesn't get a prize for not killing anyone besides Stonefur, that's the bare minimum of what someone should be doing. Killing Stonefur leaves such a black mark that it can't really be ignored. "Oh don't worry, she only killed one cat and was stopped from dooming more because she wanted to save her own skin" doesn't read as a ringing endorsement. As far as Leopardstar being a strong leader afterwards, that's highly debatable. She did help Onestar attack Thunderclan with zero provocation after all in Eclipse. And it's not like she really distinguished herself in any way other than basically leaving the clan on auto-pilot after that. If she had been an absolute saint, then sure, it might redeem her for the Tigerclan debacle. She's not, however. She just keeps her head down...up until she has a chance to double team another clan for absolutely zero gain, anyway. Seriously, Riverclan attacking Thunderclan would have gained them nothing; they don't share a border. At the very least Onestar can claim territory from it(not that it justifies him or was the only reason), Leopardstar just seemed to want to join in for no reason. "Not killing cats" is a pretty universal thing, not a Thunderclan thing. Also not letting one's territory be tread on and disrespected, letting the deputy die dishonorably(that was a big deal in arc 1, remember how no one wanted to believe that Oakheart had killed Redtail?), disrespecting prey, and whatever other host of code breaking things Tigerclan was up to. Not being accomplice to a killer though is a pretty basic moral trait in general though, I think. Especially when we saw Stonefur speaking up, proving that murder isn't a Riverclan value if that's what's being argued here.
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