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Post by Haze on Mar 12, 2019 11:51:02 GMT -5
Bluestar would break earlier than Rowanstar...
But anyway, there is a difference when Tigerheart offered the territory and the events of Tigerheart Shadow.
When he first offered the territory Shadowclan didnt had enough cats to patrol, even the elders was working as warriors again because of that, so a smaller territory was advantageous.
After TS Shadowclan is bigger and because of that in need of its territory back, and Tigerstar had then Guardians plot that was about territory too. And remember that before trying to push Skyclan away Tigerstar wanted to all the clans to help with a piece of territory so everyone have a more fair amount, thing that Violetshine agreed that was fair by the way, but every keader refused.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 12, 2019 11:53:19 GMT -5
Needletail is the very definition of a blind follower. Just because she blindly followed Darktail doesn't make her any less of one. She still hung around him and only ever got upset when her boyfriend got killed and thus things started personally affecting her. She couldn't have cared any less otherwise.
Honestly fixing Shadowclan would require insane amounts of effort to undo the generations of brutal leadership ever since Cedarstar became leader. Cedarstar was the fool who started this all by brutally raiding Windclan constantly and trying to get rid of them. He then set the precedent for nepotism by promoted Raggedstar even after knowing how reckless and foolhardy Raggedstar could be. Raggedstar continued that tradition by creating Brokenstar. If Nightstar had lived, maybe the tide could have been stemmed, but instead he died too soon and we got the tyrant Tigerstar and the ex-convict Blackstar. Even if Blackstar led better in his later years(and if one forgets the Sol incident), Blackstar still led with that same "watch out or else he'll get really mad" type of mentality as seen with Redwillow. Rowanstar had zero chance of turning around this abused animal of a clan that responds only to a whip.
A Bluestar cannot fix this. You'd need a massive influx of actual values to teach to the next generation, a revolution one could say. Haze is also correct that a Bluestar would have snapped like a twig under the pressure Rowanstar was facing. Bluestar was betrayed by just one cat and became completely unfit to lead thereafter. Rowanstar was betrayed by dozens of times as many and was still of sane mind.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 12, 2019 12:36:53 GMT -5
Until Shadowclan really understands that bullies leading clans is bad, they will not reform. Simple as that.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 12, 2019 12:37:19 GMT -5
All I’m saying is if Rowanstar was a leader of any other clan, I bet he’d be well respected and seen as honorable. Shadowclan simply only seems to respond to bullies and brutal aggression mongers. A shame, really.
I seriously can’t fathom how strong mentally Rowanstar had to be to take so long to break and still put the safety of his betrayers before his mental and physical health. At this point I don’t care if he’s a “weak leader”, AVOS showed me that he’s a damn good and selfless cat when it comes to Shadowclan and trying to keep honor of the code.
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Post by Haze on Mar 12, 2019 12:43:51 GMT -5
Putting way too much faith in the other clans...
Remember Windclan? The pressure from the clan changed Onestar completely.
Riverclan? Leopardstar was basically female Blackstar and Mistysyar was far from a good cat in AVoS.
Skyclan and Thunderclan are basically the same clan, but the first have cooler names.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 12, 2019 12:48:05 GMT -5
Putting way too much faith in the other clans... Remember Windclan? The pressure from the clan changed Onestar completely. Riverclan? Leopardstar was basically female Blackstar and Mistysyar was far from a good cat in AVoS. Skyclan and Thunderclan are basically the same clan, but the first have cooler names. Onestar changed apparently because of pressures he put on himself by having a relationship with a kittypet and the like. Leopardstar was in love with Tigerstar and was stupid, while Mistystar is starting to show signs of dementia (like her mother) so that's probably what's happening. I still think Rowanstar would have been fine as a leader in any of the other clans
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 12, 2019 12:51:42 GMT -5
Putting way too much faith in the other clans... Remember Windclan? The pressure from the clan changed Onestar completely. Riverclan? Leopardstar was basically female Blackstar and Mistysyar was far from a good cat in AVoS. Skyclan and Thunderclan are basically the same clan, but the first have cooler names. Riverclan didn't pressure Leopardstar, that was all entirely her own fault for being arrogant and cowardly. Rather, it was her pressuring them by telling Stonefur to not fight and other bootlicking things.
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Post by Haze on Mar 12, 2019 12:52:40 GMT -5
Putting way too much faith in the other clans... Remember Windclan? The pressure from the clan changed Onestar completely. Riverclan? Leopardstar was basically female Blackstar and Mistysyar was far from a good cat in AVoS. Skyclan and Thunderclan are basically the same clan, but the first have cooler names. Onestar changed apparently because of pressures he put on himself by having a relationship with a kittypet and the like. Leopardstar was in love with Tigerstar and was stupid, while Mistystar is starting to show signs of dementia (like her mother) so that's probably what's happening. I still think Rowanstar would have been fine as a leader in any of the other clans The kittypet plot is recent, Onestar was already showing changes in TNP. Leopardstar attacked Thunderclan to drive them away in PoT way after Tigerclaw was dead and then we have the The fourth apprentice incident.
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Post by Haze on Mar 12, 2019 12:54:54 GMT -5
Putting way too much faith in the other clans... Remember Windclan? The pressure from the clan changed Onestar completely. Riverclan? Leopardstar was basically female Blackstar and Mistysyar was far from a good cat in AVoS. Skyclan and Thunderclan are basically the same clan, but the first have cooler names. Riverclan didn't pressure Leopardstar, that was all entirely her own fault for being arrogant and cowardly. Rather, it was her pressuring them by telling Stonefur to not fight and other bootlicking things. I was mostly pointing out that all the clans are a**holes except for for Thunderclan and Skyclan(debatable).
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 12, 2019 12:59:24 GMT -5
They have a culture of wanting to be respected and feared. Rowanstar wasn’t about that.
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Post by wolfcry32 on Mar 12, 2019 16:22:18 GMT -5
1. Rowanstar isn’t to blame- it’s the rest of the Clan 2. ShadowClan literally abandoned itself, realized their mistake and instead of admitting they were wrong continued to suffer and blame Rowanstar.
I wish ShadowClan was the series’ focus though. Being taken over by a tyrannical leader not once but twice, being hit by a plague in the interim, being lead by a reformed exile, being manipulated by an outsider and losing faith in StarClan, having a cat be trained by his ghost grandpa and sticking around for recon while another goes all in and ends up siding with the Dark Forest, and then the entire Darktail fiasco? THAT is what I call a story.
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Post by SmugGull on Mar 12, 2019 16:29:00 GMT -5
Yeah, ShadowClan's characterization is pretty inconsistent. Blackstar was actually a decent leader for a while, then Sol happened and everything went downhill. I think the Erins just throw ShadowClan under the bus whenever they need a clan to villanize, regardless of if it actually makes sense or not.
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Lesbian
TigerLily
Thinks too much about Warriors
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Post by TigerLily on Mar 12, 2019 17:31:31 GMT -5
Yeah, ShadowClan's characterization is pretty inconsistent. Blackstar was actually a decent leader for a while, then Sol happened and everything went downhill. I think the Erins just throw ShadowClan under the bus whenever they need a clan to villanize, regardless of if it actually makes sense or not. I agree with the inconsistency of ShadowClan (like I don't really understand why Tawnypelt ever liked being there especially since she's ThunderClan born and the culture is pretty inhospitable) But Blackstar was a really bad leader. Honestly, I'd argue he was definitely a worse leader than Leopardstar (even though most people say the opposite). Leopardstar never desired for the demise of her Clan, even though her actions were definitely misguided. She was taken advantage of as she was a really young leader who was very ambitious as well, like Tigerstar. She saw an opportunity to make the Clan's world more peaceful and a better place, and wanted to be hailed as a hero for making it such. However, Blackstar literally wants ShadowClan to fall apart. I don't know if he hates being the leader, or he hates Clan life in general, but seriously. The guy wanted ShadowClan to go live as rogues in the city back in The New Prophecy and Tawnypelt had to heavily convince him not to go down this path. I mean seriously! Combine that with the somewhat related Sol incident in the Power of Three (he loses faith in StarClan, just like he doesn't believe StarClan will actually keep ShadowClan around in TNP) and you have: a bad leader. I mean, not to mention he was both a heavy Brokenstar and Tigerstar follower who murdered many cats and attempted to murder queens and stole kits. To me, Blackstar doesn't really develop into a good leader, he just stops murdering people left and right and starts to try to tear his own Clan apart.
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Post by SmugGull on Mar 12, 2019 18:00:01 GMT -5
Oh, that's right — I forgot about that part in TNP.
Let me revise my statement then — he was an interesting character who had the POTENTIAL to be a good leader but he kept buckling under pressure.
I can't help but think that Russetfur would have been a better leader. Is it just me?
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 12, 2019 18:19:46 GMT -5
Oh, that's right — I forgot about that part in TNP. Let me revise my statement then — he was an interesting character who had the POTENTIAL to be a good leader but he kept buckling under pressure. I can't help but think that Russetfur would have been a better leader. Is it just me? Considering what Russetfur did to Berrynose, and how she was constantly questioning Tawnypelt's loyalty, I'd say no to being a good leader.
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Post by SmugGull on Mar 12, 2019 18:22:19 GMT -5
Ah, that's fair. It's been a while since I read the books so I keep forgetting a lot. Definitely a cue to do a re-read, I think.
Begs the question — who would have been a good leader for ShadowClan post-Tigerstar?
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 12, 2019 18:26:40 GMT -5
Ah, that's fair. It's been a while since I read the books so I keep forgetting a lot. Definitely a cue to do a re-read, I think. Begs the question — who would have been a good leader for ShadowClan post-Tigerstar? Honestly? The biggest problem is the attitude of Shadowclan cats It's hard to find a good leader until they drop this idea of wanting to be the most feared clan in the forest. Even Blackstar gave off that vibe that he'd kill you if you went wrong. It's hard to find a good, honorable leader because of the very core of modern day Shadowclan's beliefs. Shadowstar is probably bashing her head into a tree in Starclan in frustration I do think Tawnypelt might have been good
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Post by scint on Mar 12, 2019 20:24:51 GMT -5
Honestly I feel like ShadowClan is only altered for plot reasons.
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Post by Sea Drops by a Bird on Mar 12, 2019 20:57:55 GMT -5
The thing is we weren't supposed to understand ShadowClan because when they were created the story arc was a lot more linear and so they were meant to be the evil clan, stereotypical bad guys, the Team Rocket if you will. They weren't supposed to have a personality or sense to their actions or POV's because they were cast as the evil ones and that's that. As the warrior's universe expanded and they began shifting POV's to different clans and the SE's that became impractical because they wanted to pretty them up so that as readers, they felt more relatable and we didn't reject them. The result? A mess.
Because ShadowClan lacked a philosophy or purpose behind their "evilness" and they were meant to be two dimensional villains, they were able to house a string of just the worst cats as leaders and warriors and that's fine as long as you're saying the whole clan is evil. But when they stopped saying that it became "Why is this clan that we're supposed to care about and be compassionate for so willing to blindly follow whatever blood thirsty egomaniac takes the leadership?" If they as a clan aren't just as power hungry and arrogant then why are their leaders and their actions that way?
ShadowClan should have been presented to us exactly as they already were; the bad guys. Proud, strong, mischievous, dangerous, and even evil from time to time, but show them embracing it. Show them not caring what the other clans think as long as they are strong and their kits are fed and safe, proud that the other clans are too afraid to cross their borders, that their reputation precedes them. Them attempting to force the "they're just like all the other clans so love them" narrative made them seem weak minded and overall lame. You know what would have been cooler? Having Rowanstar reject Darktail and then immediately send his warriors to fight him and take his cats as his own to make ShadowClan stronger. That speaks to what ShadowClan was meant to be.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 12, 2019 20:58:21 GMT -5
I mean....if we're being technical about this...it goes back even further than Cedarstar. Like, at least back to Ripplestar.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 12, 2019 21:11:53 GMT -5
Oh, that's right — I forgot about that part in TNP. Let me revise my statement then — he was an interesting character who had the POTENTIAL to be a good leader but he kept buckling under pressure. I can't help but think that Russetfur would have been a better leader. Is it just me? Considering what Russetfur did to Berrynose, and how she was constantly questioning Tawnypelt's loyalty, I'd say no to being a good leader. The irony though is that Rowanstar himself is just as inconsistent. And I feel like people forget that, like....a lot. Prior to being mates with Tawnypelt, he too also questioned her loyalty. The Erins also admitted to only making them mates because they felt bad for getting Rowan's gender wrong constantly. Suddenly they're mates, and suddenly he has a 360 pov of Tawny and her loyalty and ironically is shown defending her from Russetfur of all cats. Although it didn't even stop there, fast forward to when he and Tawny have kits, he makes a snide comment to Squirrelflight at a gathering. When Squirrelflight is just trying to congratulate him, he says something along the lines about them being clan-born kits with ShadowClan blood, taking an obvious jab at her, which is quite laughable considering his mate was born in ThudnerClan, so it's like??? Fast forward again to BrS you have Rowanstar being utterly ungrateful for the help ThunderClan offered, while berating his mate like a kit, and then into AVoS, he's still as arrogant and acting "high and mighty" but we find out it's just for show thanks to Needle and the other apprentices. Who literally say that there's so many of them, he doesn't know what to do with them, and yet he still wanted to use Needle's insubordination as a stepping stone to getting Violetshine. Supposedly laying claim to "special" kits, because he wanted his clan to be "important" too, and separating two sisters who only had each other left in the world after losing both their parents. Rowanstar was then so quick to cast her away when Needle leaves too, effectively ruining Violetshine's mentality even more as she grew older. No, Rowanstar isn't a bad cat, but he IS inconsistent. Just like Tigerheart, just like a majority of ShadowClan in general, the only difference is that in comparison to the others Rowan was just the least unlikable and actually had SOME morals. At least enough to reluctantly ask for help from the same clan he literally told to back off in the previous series, and right after threatening to war if he wasn't given one of the kits, and separating the sisters. Ironically, and even if you guys don't want to acknowledge it, Tigerheart does something similar with Alderheart. Threatening him and ThunderClan, over the situation in the final book, he also does a 360 and suddenly tries to take land back from SkyClan while also threatening them with war. Either becoming a leader makes you lose all your previous morals; Tigerheart, makes you do a 360; Onestar, or makes you inconsistant; Rowan, and even incompatent while forgetting all your deputy training; Bramblestar. I don't know, the leadership position hasn't been very desirable lately, or the editors really, really don't know how to do their own jobs, smh.
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Post by halogen on Mar 12, 2019 21:14:25 GMT -5
However, Blackstar literally wants ShadowClan to fall apart. I don't know if he hates being the leader, or he hates Clan life in general, but seriously. The guy wanted ShadowClan to go live as rogues in the city back in The New Prophecy and Tawnypelt had to heavily convince him not to go down this path. I mean seriously! Combine that with the somewhat related Sol incident in the Power of Three (he loses faith in StarClan, just like he doesn't believe StarClan will actually keep ShadowClan around in TNP) and you have: a bad leader. I mean, not to mention he was both a heavy Brokenstar and Tigerstar follower who murdered many cats and attempted to murder queens and stole kits. To me, Blackstar doesn't really develop into a good leader, he just stops murdering people left and right and starts to try to tear his own Clan apart. To be fair, the context of Blackstar trying to get ShadowClan to live as rogues was that their territory was being destroyed and cats were starving while Leopardstar wouldn't let all the Clans leave together. Still not a good look, but it wasn't like he just decided "why not just be rogues" out of the blue.
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Post by Sea Drops by a Bird on Mar 12, 2019 21:17:11 GMT -5
Yeah, ShadowClan's characterization is pretty inconsistent. Blackstar was actually a decent leader for a while, then Sol happened and everything went downhill. I think the Erins just throw ShadowClan under the bus whenever they need a clan to villanize, regardless of if it actually makes sense or not. I agree with the inconsistency of ShadowClan (like I don't really understand why Tawnypelt ever liked being there especially since she's ThunderClan born and the culture is pretty inhospitable) But Blackstar was a really bad leader. Honestly, I'd argue he was definitely a worse leader than Leopardstar (even though most people say the opposite). Leopardstar never desired for the demise of her Clan, even though her actions were definitely misguided. She was taken advantage of as she was a really young leader who was very ambitious as well, like Tigerstar. She saw an opportunity to make the Clan's world more peaceful and a better place, and wanted to be hailed as a hero for making it such. However, Blackstar literally wants ShadowClan to fall apart. I don't know if he hates being the leader, or he hates Clan life in general, but seriously. The guy wanted ShadowClan to go live as rogues in the city back in The New Prophecy and Tawnypelt had to heavily convince him not to go down this path. I mean seriously! Combine that with the somewhat related Sol incident in the Power of Three (he loses faith in StarClan, just like he doesn't believe StarClan will actually keep ShadowClan around in TNP) and you have: a bad leader. I mean, not to mention he was both a heavy Brokenstar and Tigerstar follower who murdered many cats and attempted to murder queens and stole kits. To me, Blackstar doesn't really develop into a good leader, he just stops murdering people left and right and starts to try to tear his own Clan apart. I never thought of Leopardstar or Blackstar as bad leaders. I think the reason most people do is because they're looking at it through the lens of what makes a good leader for ThunderClan who's supposed to be the moral center of the forest. Leopardstar definitely wasn't perfect and she made mistakes in the beginning, but remember just like Bluestar and all of ThunderClan, she saw how strong and charismatic Tigerstar was and wanted to rule alongside him. Blackstar wasn't trying to destroy his clan. in TNP he, like everyone else, was afraid. Like everyone else the clans were losing their home, cats were dissapearing left and right and nothing seemed certain anymore. No one was 100% on traveling across the mountains to find a new home and he wasn't the only one exploring other options. He wanted to stay close to home, to what he knew. He sent cats to scout out the twolegplace with the goal that they would reconstitute bloodclan as ShadowClan and he would lead. That was actually a practical plan- he knew it would work. It also was in motion before Tawnypelt returned. This journey to a new place that they maybe might find wasn't a sure thing and they needed a solution now because time was of the essence. As far as Sol goes him turning away from StarClan for an entire book (I would have liked it if they actually explored this more) was because Sol did what a lot of manipulators do- sell you on half truths. Like he predicted the sun would dissapear but return, but it was only because Midnight told him so. He talked about all the things StarClan didn't save them from and spoke to his frustrations overall while ignoring that StarClan isn't your personal butler. It was an interesting plot point but it didn't amount to much since it was contained and resolved in one book so we never got to see how it might actually impact ShadowClan, Blackstar or the other clans.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 12, 2019 22:02:40 GMT -5
I personally don't care for Blackstar, but out of all the modern ShadowClan leaders, he did make his clan the most stable under his reign. I think that's really what matters, stability, and longevity, survival in the wild and ensuring a future for the next generation. Something Blackstar, even if he was incompetent at some points, was able to do. The same with Leopardstar.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 12, 2019 22:03:53 GMT -5
Yeah, ShadowClan's characterization is pretty inconsistent. Blackstar was actually a decent leader for a while, then Sol happened and everything went downhill. I think the Erins just throw ShadowClan under the bus whenever they need a clan to villanize, regardless of if it actually makes sense or not. I agree with the inconsistency of ShadowClan (like I don't really understand why Tawnypelt ever liked being there especially since she's ThunderClan born and the culture is pretty inhospitable) But Blackstar was a really bad leader. Honestly, I'd argue he was definitely a worse leader than Leopardstar (even though most people say the opposite). Leopardstar never desired for the demise of her Clan, even though her actions were definitely misguided. She was taken advantage of as she was a really young leader who was very ambitious as well, like Tigerstar. She saw an opportunity to make the Clan's world more peaceful and a better place, and wanted to be hailed as a hero for making it such. However, Blackstar literally wants ShadowClan to fall apart. I don't know if he hates being the leader, or he hates Clan life in general, but seriously. The guy wanted ShadowClan to go live as rogues in the city back in The New Prophecy and Tawnypelt had to heavily convince him not to go down this path. I mean seriously! Combine that with the somewhat related Sol incident in the Power of Three (he loses faith in StarClan, just like he doesn't believe StarClan will actually keep ShadowClan around in TNP) and you have: a bad leader. I mean, not to mention he was both a heavy Brokenstar and Tigerstar follower who murdered many cats and attempted to murder queens and stole kits. To me, Blackstar doesn't really develop into a good leader, he just stops murdering people left and right and starts to try to tear his own Clan apart. That’s a hell of a stretch
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 12, 2019 22:45:38 GMT -5
I agree with the inconsistency of ShadowClan (like I don't really understand why Tawnypelt ever liked being there especially since she's ThunderClan born and the culture is pretty inhospitable) But Blackstar was a really bad leader. Honestly, I'd argue he was definitely a worse leader than Leopardstar (even though most people say the opposite). Leopardstar never desired for the demise of her Clan, even though her actions were definitely misguided. She was taken advantage of as she was a really young leader who was very ambitious as well, like Tigerstar. She saw an opportunity to make the Clan's world more peaceful and a better place, and wanted to be hailed as a hero for making it such. However, Blackstar literally wants ShadowClan to fall apart. I don't know if he hates being the leader, or he hates Clan life in general, but seriously. The guy wanted ShadowClan to go live as rogues in the city back in The New Prophecy and Tawnypelt had to heavily convince him not to go down this path. I mean seriously! Combine that with the somewhat related Sol incident in the Power of Three (he loses faith in StarClan, just like he doesn't believe StarClan will actually keep ShadowClan around in TNP) and you have: a bad leader. I mean, not to mention he was both a heavy Brokenstar and Tigerstar follower who murdered many cats and attempted to murder queens and stole kits. To me, Blackstar doesn't really develop into a good leader, he just stops murdering people left and right and starts to try to tear his own Clan apart. I never thought of Leopardstar or Blackstar as bad leaders. I think the reason most people do is because they're looking at it through the lens of what makes a good leader for ThunderClan who's supposed to be the moral center of the forest. Leopardstar definitely wasn't perfect and she made mistakes in the beginning, but remember just like Bluestar and all of ThunderClan, she saw how strong and charismatic Tigerstar was and wanted to rule alongside him. Blackstar wasn't trying to destroy his clan. in TNP he, like everyone else, was afraid. Like everyone else the clans were losing their home, cats were dissapearing left and right and nothing seemed certain anymore. No one was 100% on traveling across the mountains to find a new home and he wasn't the only one exploring other options. He wanted to stay close to home, to what he knew. He sent cats to scout out the twolegplace with the goal that they would reconstitute bloodclan as ShadowClan and he would lead. That was actually a practical plan- he knew it would work. It also was in motion before Tawnypelt returned. This journey to a new place that they maybe might find wasn't a sure thing and they needed a solution now because time was of the essence. As far as Sol goes him turning away from StarClan for an entire book (I would have liked it if they actually explored this more) was because Sol did what a lot of manipulators do- sell you on half truths. Like he predicted the sun would dissapear but return, but it was only because Midnight told him so. He talked about all the things StarClan didn't save them from and spoke to his frustrations overall while ignoring that StarClan isn't your personal butler. It was an interesting plot point but it didn't amount to much since it was contained and resolved in one book so we never got to see how it might actually impact ShadowClan, Blackstar or the other clans. Leopardstar is a horrid leader. Arguably the worst non-Shadowclan leader. A good leader doesn't order the murder of apprentices, doesn't allow their clan's territory to be plundered and desecrated by Shadowclan, doesn't let their deputy get murdered without so much as a peep in complaint. Oh, and then cheers when he dies too. Thunderclan morality has very little to do with becoming Tigerstar's loyal lapdog and allowing Riverclan to suffer while Shadowclan got fat off their spoils. Even from an amoral point of view, she was a bad leader because she was allowing her own clan to diminish and be abused at Shadowclan's leisure. One can make excuses about her being taken in by Tigerstar's vision, but the bad part wasn't being taken in by it; it was continuing to believe it even as he made her speak words ordering apprentices to die.
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Bisexual
신성하지 않은 모든 것의 어머니
なんで私
Kpop isn't a choice, it's a lifestyle
Pronouns: She/Her/Demon Mom
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Post by なんで私 on Mar 12, 2019 22:48:17 GMT -5
ShadowClan is as inconsistent as my third grade activity schedule
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 12, 2019 23:06:50 GMT -5
Leopardstar didn't order her cats to kill apprentices. It was Tigerstar, this doesn't take away the blame of liability, but it does make it clear she wasn't bloodthirsty about killing apprentices. Also she literally expressed guilt for that even in her older times of life and made Misty deputy to make up for it. No leader is perfect, but Leaopardstar went out of her way to try and better herself as a leader, even if she made crappy decisions. Same with Blackstar, despite him being quite merciless in some circumstances. Also, it's quite ironic, because Crookedstar literally did something very similar when Brokenstar was leader, and willingly let ShadowClan trample on their lands, yet I barely hear a peep about his actions as a leader tbh. Considering Leopardstar is his successor, it really does draw that connection.
What I find interesting is that we've been talking about crappy ShadowClan leaders, yet imo, Crookedstar is pretty up there too, especially with his constant fights against both WindClan and especially ThunderClan. ShadowClan isn't the only clan with a certain type of cultural behavior, all clans have that.
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