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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 10:46:12 GMT -5
Do you think it's his fault that ShadowClan collapsed after all?
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 12, 2019 10:51:15 GMT -5
Not entirely but definitely partially
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 12, 2019 10:59:25 GMT -5
Hardly. If any, a very tiny amount. Some cats simply cannot be controlled unless they are hurt or abused before-hand, and I’m damn well happy that Rowanstar did none of those things like the leaders before him.
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Post by Haze on Mar 12, 2019 11:37:12 GMT -5
A part of it yes.
While Blackstar has a point here...
Needletail is not wrong about the situation either...
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#FCCA57
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Papillon
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Post by Papillon on Mar 12, 2019 11:38:36 GMT -5
It's definitely partly his fault, but I don't see how anyone can say it entirely is his fault since none of it would've happened if the rogues didn't come
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 12, 2019 11:46:47 GMT -5
A part of it yes. While Blackstar has a point here... Needletail is not wrong about the situation either... Needletail is saying that purely to deflect blame off of her own tail and drop it on Rowanstar. The second part especially stands out given that Rowanstar was indeed trying to rebuild the clan but the likes of Scorchfur were sneering that it was better under Darktail. Shadowclan blamed him for the deaths of Shadowclan cats, no amount of strength can fix that unless he pulls a Tigerstar and brings in rogues and brute force to force the situation. He had to give land to Skyclan thanks to a prophecy and that didn't endear him to Shadowclan either. He very literally had the stars conspiring against him because of having to give up land for Skyclan.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 12:13:33 GMT -5
I don't think all that happened was all Rowanstar's fault (maybe a little bit, but still). There were some cats like Ratscar who didn't help matters in the rebellion, but at least Ratscar and several others realized that they were in the wrong.
The ones I believe who are truly at fault are Needletail and Sleekwhisker.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 12, 2019 12:31:05 GMT -5
I think most of it was out of his control. His clan was so obsessed with the days when they were feared, that there was nothing he could have done other than become a bully himself - which really isn't in Rowanstar's nature.
Most of it was Needletail's fault. She just wants to blame Rowanstar
And afterwards? His clanmates still weren't respecting him. He was probably broken down.
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#add8e6
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*Ravenpaw*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Mar 12, 2019 14:28:01 GMT -5
Most of it was not Rowanstar's fault.
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Post by kinkajou on Mar 12, 2019 16:56:29 GMT -5
Nope
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 12, 2019 21:45:11 GMT -5
Partially, yes. He does hold some blame as a leader, but not entirely his fault.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 12, 2019 21:55:31 GMT -5
A part of it yes. While Blackstar has a point here... Needletail is not wrong about the situation either... Needletail is saying that purely to deflect blame off of her own tail and drop it on Rowanstar. The second part especially stands out given that Rowanstar was indeed trying to rebuild the clan but the likes of Scorchfur were sneering that it was better under Darktail. Shadowclan blamed him for the deaths of Shadowclan cats, no amount of strength can fix that unless he pulls a Tigerstar and brings in rogues and brute force to force the situation. He had to give land to Skyclan thanks to a prophecy and that didn't endear him to Shadowclan either. He very literally had the stars conspiring against him because of having to give up land for Skyclan. Sorry but, even if she was just saying that to deflect blame, why would it matter? If she were to blame instead, what would they do? Kill her? Banish her? Kick her from StarClan? I don't think they actually care at that point. And on top of that it still doesn't change that she's not wrong either. Also putting the blame on Scorchfur for why Rowanstar stepped down is still just kinda pathetic. And this is coming from someone who's neutral toward him. Scorchfur obviously was just as frustrated as the other clan cats, he was just more vocal, cowardly and idiotic? Maybe, but still vocal. If all it takes is one cat for Rowan to cave in and step down from being leader, then he really wasn't a strong leader then after all. If anything the blame is more on Tigerheart, who the Erins were pushing to be some lord and savior in the narrative, a form of stability, and when he left the clan collapsed. However it makes sense I guess, Tigerheart is Rowan's son, AND his deputy, the leader relies on the deputy for help (Squirrel and Bramble for example) and in a way the deputy is a form of stability. But with him gone, there wasn't much after. But to be fair, Rowanstar could have easily just appointed a NEW deputy in Tiger's place...then we wouldn't have to deal with Tigerstar II. I mean it's not like ShadowClan was suffering from starvation, or sickness anymore, or any real threats from other clans. They were literally left to rebuild and repopulate, to start over...so really it came down to self image....I mean Rowan was going to start a fight over a dead rabbit...soemthing their clan REALLY didn't need at the time, fighting that is. Tldr as a leader Rowan probably needed a thicker coat if one cat's naysaying is really what got to him in the end, or he should have simply replaced his son with a new cat for deputy. If my deputy upped and left to chase cat tail, I'd replace him, he doesn't seem fit to be leader if he'd abandoned his clan like that. Also if cats want to talk out of turn and are still dealing with insecurities over recent past events, let them get it out then, but be the bigger person. You're the leader until you actually step down from that position, and if you won't hold your head up high and enforce the warrior cat law, then how do you expect other cats to respect you? Leafstar literally did it in like 2 minutes of Rowan stepping down, making it clear she'll kick any traitors in a heartbeat, I fail to see why Rowan couldn't have been just as strict with his clan and keep them in line. He didn't have to be visious or anything, but even before Darktail, it was obvious he didn't even know what to do with most of the cats in the clan... That's just my opinionated 2 cents though.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 12, 2019 22:31:58 GMT -5
Needletail is saying that purely to deflect blame off of her own tail and drop it on Rowanstar. The second part especially stands out given that Rowanstar was indeed trying to rebuild the clan but the likes of Scorchfur were sneering that it was better under Darktail. Shadowclan blamed him for the deaths of Shadowclan cats, no amount of strength can fix that unless he pulls a Tigerstar and brings in rogues and brute force to force the situation. He had to give land to Skyclan thanks to a prophecy and that didn't endear him to Shadowclan either. He very literally had the stars conspiring against him because of having to give up land for Skyclan. Sorry but, even if she was just saying that to deflect blame, why would it matter? If she were to blame instead, what would they do? Kill her? Banish her? Kick her from StarClan? I don't think they actually care at that point. And on top of that it still doesn't change that she's not wrong either. Also putting the blame on Scorchfur for why Rowanstar stepped down is still just kinda pathetic. And this is coming from someone who's neutral toward him. Scorchfur obviously was just as frustrated as the other clan cats, he was just more vocal, cowardly and idiotic? Maybe, but still vocal. If all it takes is one cat for Rowan to cave in and step down from being leader, then he really wasn't a strong leader then after all. If anything the blame is more on Tigerheart, who the Erins were pushing to be some lord and savior in the narrative, a form of stability, and when he left the clan collapsed. However it makes sense I guess, Tigerheart is Rowan's son, AND his deputy, the leader relies on the deputy for help (Squirrel and Bramble for example) and in a way the deputy is a form of stability. But with him gone, there wasn't much after. But to be fair, Rowanstar could have easily just appointed a NEW deputy in Tiger's place...then we wouldn't have to deal with Tigerstar II. I mean it's not like ShadowClan was suffering from starvation, or sickness anymore, or any real threats from other clans. They were literally left to rebuild and repopulate, to start over...so really it came down to self image....I mean Rowan was going to start a fight over a dead rabbit...soemthing their clan REALLY didn't need at the time, fighting that is. Tldr as a leader Rowan probably needed a thicker coat if one cat's naysaying is really what got to him in the end, or he should have simply replaced his son with a new cat for deputy. If my deputy upped and left to chase cat tail, I'd replace him, he doesn't seem fit to be leader if he'd abandoned his clan like that. Also if cats want to talk out of turn and are still dealing with insecurities over recent past events, let them get it out then, but be the bigger person. You're the leader until you actually step down from that position, and if you won't hold your head up high and enforce the warrior cat law, then how do you expect other cats to respect you? Leafstar literally did it in like 2 minutes of Rowan stepping down, making it clear she'll kick any traitors in a heartbeat, I fail to see why Rowan couldn't have been just as strict with his clan and keep them in line. He didn't have to be visious or anything, but even before Darktail, it was obvious he didn't even know what to do with most of the cats in the clan... That's just my opinionated 2 cents though. Needletail has her pride on the line. Sure, Starclan might let her roam about free, but Needletail's own ego would not be allowed to run free unless she can rid herself of the blame. As well, hard to say she's right when she's taking zero responsibility. I said "THE LIKES OF Scorchfur". It wasn't just him, but it was those who thought similarly to him like Juniperclaw and some others. If there's those around unironically advocating for the sake of Darktail, then it's simply an untenable situation. Rowanstar not being able to handle dealing with rebels cheering on the same guy who murdered his daughter isn't strange at all. What exactly is he supposed to do? He can't punish him because Shadowclan is low on warriors as it is, so low that they could barely patrol their own borders. He has no choice but to let the rebels continue to stir up trouble and fester, but that in and of itself is problematic because it runs the risk of radicalizing them again with an echo chamber. He had no choice in such a situation but to put himself at the mercy of someone who had resources; he certainly had none with his low population numbers. It wasn't one cat, like you said. There was a sizable contingent that seemed to find life under Darktail better. Reducing it to naysaying ignores exactly what they were saying. It was treasonous, the kind of thing that spawns rebellions ala Mudclaw. Rowanstar could have the thickest skin in the world but it's not insults that are the problem. It's the fact that cats he cannot punish are allowed to spread their poisonous ideology to others and among themselves to just make a new problem over and over again. The comparison to Leafstar is completely off and ignores the fact that Leafstar actually has cats to spare. Rowanstar has none, so he can't punish anyone. Even with the cats loyal to him, punishing a cat means that he's taking two out of circulation for a while(the one being punished and the one to enforce the punishment). It was something that Shadowclan couldn't afford in their weakened state that could barely patrol their own borders. Leafstar had the power to do things because she had manpower and no radical rebels stinking up her group with compliments to murderers. Rowanstar lacks such luxuries. Besides, Shadowclan blamed Rowanstar for all of the deaths anyway, so the idea that they'd listen to such a "tyrant" would be odd.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 12, 2019 22:56:09 GMT -5
Sorry but, even if she was just saying that to deflect blame, why would it matter? If she were to blame instead, what would they do? Kill her? Banish her? Kick her from StarClan? I don't think they actually care at that point. And on top of that it still doesn't change that she's not wrong either. Also putting the blame on Scorchfur for why Rowanstar stepped down is still just kinda pathetic. And this is coming from someone who's neutral toward him. Scorchfur obviously was just as frustrated as the other clan cats, he was just more vocal, cowardly and idiotic? Maybe, but still vocal. If all it takes is one cat for Rowan to cave in and step down from being leader, then he really wasn't a strong leader then after all. If anything the blame is more on Tigerheart, who the Erins were pushing to be some lord and savior in the narrative, a form of stability, and when he left the clan collapsed. However it makes sense I guess, Tigerheart is Rowan's son, AND his deputy, the leader relies on the deputy for help (Squirrel and Bramble for example) and in a way the deputy is a form of stability. But with him gone, there wasn't much after. But to be fair, Rowanstar could have easily just appointed a NEW deputy in Tiger's place...then we wouldn't have to deal with Tigerstar II. I mean it's not like ShadowClan was suffering from starvation, or sickness anymore, or any real threats from other clans. They were literally left to rebuild and repopulate, to start over...so really it came down to self image....I mean Rowan was going to start a fight over a dead rabbit...soemthing their clan REALLY didn't need at the time, fighting that is. Tldr as a leader Rowan probably needed a thicker coat if one cat's naysaying is really what got to him in the end, or he should have simply replaced his son with a new cat for deputy. If my deputy upped and left to chase cat tail, I'd replace him, he doesn't seem fit to be leader if he'd abandoned his clan like that. Also if cats want to talk out of turn and are still dealing with insecurities over recent past events, let them get it out then, but be the bigger person. You're the leader until you actually step down from that position, and if you won't hold your head up high and enforce the warrior cat law, then how do you expect other cats to respect you? Leafstar literally did it in like 2 minutes of Rowan stepping down, making it clear she'll kick any traitors in a heartbeat, I fail to see why Rowan couldn't have been just as strict with his clan and keep them in line. He didn't have to be visious or anything, but even before Darktail, it was obvious he didn't even know what to do with most of the cats in the clan... That's just my opinionated 2 cents though. Needletail has her pride on the line. Sure, Starclan might let her roam about free, but Needletail's own ego would not be allowed to run free unless she can rid herself of the blame. As well, hard to say she's right when she's taking zero responsibility. I said "THE LIKES OF Scorchfur". It wasn't just him, but it was those who thought similarly to him like Juniperclaw and some others. If there's those around unironically advocating for the sake of Darktail, then it's simply an untenable situation. Rowanstar not being able to handle dealing with rebels cheering on the same guy who murdered his daughter isn't strange at all. What exactly is he supposed to do? He can't punish him because Shadowclan is low on warriors as it is, so low that they could barely patrol their own borders. He has no choice but to let the rebels continue to stir up trouble and fester, but that in and of itself is problematic because it runs the risk of radicalizing them again with an echo chamber. He had no choice in such a situation but to put himself at the mercy of someone who had resources; he certainly had none with his low population numbers. It wasn't one cat, like you said. There was a sizable contingent that seemed to find life under Darktail better. Reducing it to naysaying ignores exactly what they were saying. It was treasonous, the kind of thing that spawns rebellions ala Mudclaw. Rowanstar could have the thickest skin in the world but it's not insults that are the problem. It's the fact that cats he cannot punish are allowed to spread their poisonous ideology to others and among themselves to just make a new problem over and over again. The comparison to Leafstar is completely off and ignores the fact that Leafstar actually has cats to spare. Rowanstar has none, so he can't punish anyone. Even with the cats loyal to him, punishing a cat means that he's taking two out of circulation for a while(the one being punished and the one to enforce the punishment). It was something that Shadowclan couldn't afford in their weakened state that could barely patrol their own borders. Leafstar had the power to do things because she had manpower and no radical rebels stinking up her group with compliments to murderers. Rowanstar lacks such luxuries. Besides, Shadowclan blamed Rowanstar for all of the deaths anyway, so the idea that they'd listen to such a "tyrant" would be odd. Pride doesn't suddenly make you undead though. What responsibility is she supposed to take? I'm rather confused. What do you expect her to do after she died? Say, oh yeah it was all my fault, and defend Rowanstar, would that really change the narrative, especially now that she's dead?? Would that suddenly make him a good leader? I feel like this is spilt milk that doesn't matter anymore at this point. Also, even if Needle did say that, it wasn't even entirely her fault either anyways, yeah she has blame in the situation, but so did many other characters, including Rowan himself. So really, I'm not getting what you're trying to make clear here. What others though? Just Scorchfur and Juniperclaw? Can you be more specific? Cause from what I remember those two were actually just going to leave and join SkyClan and be done with it, if not for Tigerheart. You keep saying others, but what other cats were still disrespecting Rowan, that wasn't those two, and were still alive at the time during the supposed "rebuilding" era while still a part of ShadowClan at the time...? Or did I miss something? So what you're saying is that Rowanstar couldn't punish his own cats even if they were disrespectful to him. Lol, how would that exactly solve his issues then? If he wanted respect he should have been strict, he didn't have to be merciless, but just strict. And punishing cats doesn't even have to be severe. Tigerheart, even if I don't care for him as leader, punished Juniperclaw after the poisoning incident, even if he did die later, he still took action as a leader. How would Rowan expect to do better as a clan if he continued to supposedly let cats continue to walk all over him? How would he expect to gain their respect? Doesn't the warrior code literally say the leader's word is law? As flawed as a rule as it may be, he should remind them who is leader and take back charge of his own clan. I'll excuse him during the sickness incident, and then rogues taking advantage of that situation. But prior to that, his clan was already falling apart because they had authority issues, Littlecloud's condition and the way he was left for example was utterly disgusting and disrespectful. His cats should have known better, including the warriors, they all were apprentices at one point themselves, they should know how to keep a cat's bedding clean at least. And then younger generation cats grow up thinking they can get away with things, like fighting with unsheathed claws, disrespecting their mentors, literally sneaking out of camp at night. I'm not saying Rowan is bad entirely, but he could have done better. Although, the only other real excuse is just bad writing, with the Erins setting him up to fail regardless.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 12, 2019 23:13:50 GMT -5
Needletail has her pride on the line. Sure, Starclan might let her roam about free, but Needletail's own ego would not be allowed to run free unless she can rid herself of the blame. As well, hard to say she's right when she's taking zero responsibility. I said "THE LIKES OF Scorchfur". It wasn't just him, but it was those who thought similarly to him like Juniperclaw and some others. If there's those around unironically advocating for the sake of Darktail, then it's simply an untenable situation. Rowanstar not being able to handle dealing with rebels cheering on the same guy who murdered his daughter isn't strange at all. What exactly is he supposed to do? He can't punish him because Shadowclan is low on warriors as it is, so low that they could barely patrol their own borders. He has no choice but to let the rebels continue to stir up trouble and fester, but that in and of itself is problematic because it runs the risk of radicalizing them again with an echo chamber. He had no choice in such a situation but to put himself at the mercy of someone who had resources; he certainly had none with his low population numbers. It wasn't one cat, like you said. There was a sizable contingent that seemed to find life under Darktail better. Reducing it to naysaying ignores exactly what they were saying. It was treasonous, the kind of thing that spawns rebellions ala Mudclaw. Rowanstar could have the thickest skin in the world but it's not insults that are the problem. It's the fact that cats he cannot punish are allowed to spread their poisonous ideology to others and among themselves to just make a new problem over and over again. The comparison to Leafstar is completely off and ignores the fact that Leafstar actually has cats to spare. Rowanstar has none, so he can't punish anyone. Even with the cats loyal to him, punishing a cat means that he's taking two out of circulation for a while(the one being punished and the one to enforce the punishment). It was something that Shadowclan couldn't afford in their weakened state that could barely patrol their own borders. Leafstar had the power to do things because she had manpower and no radical rebels stinking up her group with compliments to murderers. Rowanstar lacks such luxuries. Besides, Shadowclan blamed Rowanstar for all of the deaths anyway, so the idea that they'd listen to such a "tyrant" would be odd. Pride doesn't suddenly make you undead though. What responsibility is she supposed to take? I'm rather confused. What do you expect her to do after she died? Say, oh yeah it was all my fault, and defend Rowanstar, would that really change the narrative, especially now that she's dead?? Would that suddenly make him a good leader? I feel like this is spilt milk that doesn't matter anymore at this point. Also, even if Needle did say that, it wasn't even entirely her fault either anyways, yeah she has blame in the situation, but so did many other characters, including Rowan himself. So really, I'm not getting what you're trying to make clear here. What others though? Just Scorchfur and Juniperclaw? Can you be more specific? Cause from what I remember those two were actually just going to leave and join SkyClan and be done with it, if not for Tigerheart. You keep saying others, but what other cats were still disrespecting Rowan, that wasn't those two, and were still alive at the time during the supposed "rebuilding" era while still a part of ShadowClan at the time...? Or did I miss something? So what you're saying is that Rowanstar couldn't punish his own cats even if they were disrespectful to him. Lol, how would that exactly solve his issues then? If he wanted respect he should have been strict, he didn't have to be merciless, but just strict. And punishing cats doesn't even have to be severe. Tigerheart, even if I don't care for him as leader, punished Juniperclaw after the poisoning incident, even if he did die later, he still took action as a leader. How would Rowan expect to do better as a clan if he continued to supposedly let cats continue to walk all over him? How would he expect to gain their respect? Doesn't the warrior code literally say the leader's word is law? As flawed as a rule as it may be, he should remind them who is leader and take back charge of his own clan. I'll excuse him during the sickness incident, and then rogues taking advantage of that situation. But prior to that, his clan was already falling apart because they had authority issues, Littlecloud's condition and the way he was left for example was utterly disgusting and disrespectful. His cats should have known better, including the warriors, they all were apprentices at one point themselves, they should know how to keep a cat's bedding clean at least. And then younger generation cats grow up thinking they can get away with things, like fighting with unsheathed claws, disrespecting their mentors, literally sneaking out of camp at night. I'm not saying Rowan is bad entirely, but he could have done better. Although, the only other real excuse is just bad writing, with the Erins setting him up to fail regardless. I don't expect Needletail to take responsibility but seeing even a hint of it would be nice. My point is that Needle's an unreliable source who has every reason in the world to blame Rowanstar(kind of like the other Shadowclan cats do). At the gathering it's mentioned that Shadowclan in general appears to be blaming Rowanstar for the deaths. Scorchfur and Juniperclaw weren't isolated, just the most notable of the lot. Yes, he couldn't punish them because of the situation he was in. That's the entire point. Tigerheart inherited a better situation by virtue of coming back with another warrior and kits on the way that promised to pick up the slack in the future. Rowanstar had no such manpower to spare. He can't be strict when he can't enforce any of it. What's he going to do, tell the rebels to back off? They already blame him for the deaths Darktail caused, they couldn't care less about the "leader's word is law" bit of the code. You seem to be under this impression that if Rowanstar just told the rebels to stop, they would stop. But he has nothing backing up those words beyond the code, and it's clear they don't care about the code very much seeing how they were putting Darktail on a pedestal over him. The only way to take back control would be through enforcement, but he doesn't have enough cats to spare to enforce that, so no, he can't do anything really.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 13, 2019 1:54:24 GMT -5
Pride doesn't suddenly make you undead though. What responsibility is she supposed to take? I'm rather confused. What do you expect her to do after she died? Say, oh yeah it was all my fault, and defend Rowanstar, would that really change the narrative, especially now that she's dead?? Would that suddenly make him a good leader? I feel like this is spilt milk that doesn't matter anymore at this point. Also, even if Needle did say that, it wasn't even entirely her fault either anyways, yeah she has blame in the situation, but so did many other characters, including Rowan himself. So really, I'm not getting what you're trying to make clear here. What others though? Just Scorchfur and Juniperclaw? Can you be more specific? Cause from what I remember those two were actually just going to leave and join SkyClan and be done with it, if not for Tigerheart. You keep saying others, but what other cats were still disrespecting Rowan, that wasn't those two, and were still alive at the time during the supposed "rebuilding" era while still a part of ShadowClan at the time...? Or did I miss something? So what you're saying is that Rowanstar couldn't punish his own cats even if they were disrespectful to him. Lol, how would that exactly solve his issues then? If he wanted respect he should have been strict, he didn't have to be merciless, but just strict. And punishing cats doesn't even have to be severe. Tigerheart, even if I don't care for him as leader, punished Juniperclaw after the poisoning incident, even if he did die later, he still took action as a leader. How would Rowan expect to do better as a clan if he continued to supposedly let cats continue to walk all over him? How would he expect to gain their respect? Doesn't the warrior code literally say the leader's word is law? As flawed as a rule as it may be, he should remind them who is leader and take back charge of his own clan. I'll excuse him during the sickness incident, and then rogues taking advantage of that situation. But prior to that, his clan was already falling apart because they had authority issues, Littlecloud's condition and the way he was left for example was utterly disgusting and disrespectful. His cats should have known better, including the warriors, they all were apprentices at one point themselves, they should know how to keep a cat's bedding clean at least. And then younger generation cats grow up thinking they can get away with things, like fighting with unsheathed claws, disrespecting their mentors, literally sneaking out of camp at night. I'm not saying Rowan is bad entirely, but he could have done better. Although, the only other real excuse is just bad writing, with the Erins setting him up to fail regardless. I don't expect Needletail to take responsibility but seeing even a hint of it would be nice. My point is that Needle's an unreliable source who has every reason in the world to blame Rowanstar(kind of like the other Shadowclan cats do). At the gathering it's mentioned that Shadowclan in general appears to be blaming Rowanstar for the deaths. Scorchfur and Juniperclaw weren't isolated, just the most notable of the lot. Yes, he couldn't punish them because of the situation he was in. That's the entire point. Tigerheart inherited a better situation by virtue of coming back with another warrior and kits on the way that promised to pick up the slack in the future. Rowanstar had no such manpower to spare. He can't be strict when he can't enforce any of it. What's he going to do, tell the rebels to back off? They already blame him for the deaths Darktail caused, they couldn't care less about the "leader's word is law" bit of the code. You seem to be under this impression that if Rowanstar just told the rebels to stop, they would stop. But he has nothing backing up those words beyond the code, and it's clear they don't care about the code very much seeing how they were putting Darktail on a pedestal over him. The only way to take back control would be through enforcement, but he doesn't have enough cats to spare to enforce that, so no, he can't do anything really. Even if Needletail had every reason in the world to blame him, her point literally still stands. She's not wrong. Whether she's trying to deflect the blame or not doesn't negate the point she is making because it's literally true when it comes to the standards of what makes a good leader. It doesn't matter, if any other cat said it, the words behind it would not change. I personally don't care that Needle is the one saying it, her words aren't wrong. "A strong leader could have held the clan together." and "A strong leader would already be rebuilding the clan." This is coming from someone who is actually neutral on both Needle and Rowan, but I will criticize, and give credit where it's due. Leafstar is a prime example of what Rowanstar SHOULD have been, but couldn't be because the Erins set him up to fail just so they could shove Tigerstar II into the spotlight. That's the point I'm making. Leafstar, even if her clan isn't traditional in cultural ways of other clan cats, literally has been through hell and back and STILL remained a strong leader to her cats. From the very start, there were those opposed to her leadership, from Sharpclaw becoming her deputy instead of leader instead, to the divide over the Daylight Warriors. And then her clan is literally purged, and they're ran out of their home how many times now? Who's keeping count? How many times has SkyClan been on the brink of extinction? Losing cats left and right to fights, catnappings, sickness, and predators, etc. And this is why I actually grew to like and respect Leafstar as a character because, despite all odds, she still came out on top by the end of AVoS. She brought her clan to the lakes, established a territory, and demanded respect among the other clans. Yes, there was times when she was going to give up hope, but Hawkwing, her deputy, helped her through that. She lost her home, her mate, her kits, almost all of her clan members, and two of her deputies in a span of one book, which is utterly ridiculous. But she chose a good deputy, kept her chin high, even with the other questioned her leadership, and pulled through. This is what I was expecting to see with Rowanstar. This is what I absolutely wanted to see with his character. But again, bad writing on the Erins (and editors) part, because as I've said before, and I'll say it again, Rowan was set up to fail. I knew this already. However, I find it beyond ridiculous that they didn't even seem to really try with his character. Because no matter how you look at it, at least to me, it's a bit strange, underwhelming even. The writing makes it seem like a few cats talking behind his back suddenly takes away all his authority as a leader. And from what I'm seeing in debates, it feels like other people are making Rowan out to be completely powerless when he's not?? Being leader isn't just a title. It's a position in the clan, the highest standing, chosen and approved by StarClan. I'm annoyed that Rowan was so easily shown giving up that said authority, as soon as his son/deputy disappears. Why didn't he name a new one? Find a cat much more responsible than someone that abandons their clan for TC tail? Seriously? Why doesn't he actually challenge those that defy him, he literally has Tiger and Tawny fighting all his arguments, for the most part, defending him, which was frustrating to read. Why didn't he show the same guts he did in StarClan when they said he had no right to be with them at a Leader meeting and he told them off. I wanted to see more of that side of him. I've started to have a neutral viewpoint on him because he was selfless and gave up his position to protect his clan under SkyClan, yes, and I like that he died protecting those he loved (rather ironic when you think about Needle's fate as well), but I just wish there was....more. And now we'll never get that. Because now we have Tigerstar II suddenly in the spotlight. And people wonder why he's suddenly taken a 360 in personality? It's so he fits the "ShadowClan Leader Mold" better. And the writers think they're slick and it won't show them being hypocritical, or the cats in the series being the same, but to fans it's quite obvious, and blatant, at least to me it was. They could have EASILY written Rowan in a way that appeals to ShadowClan cats, but instead used Juniper and Scorch as mouth pieces to say he's a bad leader. It really chalks up to bad writing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 3:54:09 GMT -5
I don't expect Needletail to take responsibility but seeing even a hint of it would be nice. My point is that Needle's an unreliable source who has every reason in the world to blame Rowanstar(kind of like the other Shadowclan cats do). At the gathering it's mentioned that Shadowclan in general appears to be blaming Rowanstar for the deaths. Scorchfur and Juniperclaw weren't isolated, just the most notable of the lot. Yes, he couldn't punish them because of the situation he was in. That's the entire point. Tigerheart inherited a better situation by virtue of coming back with another warrior and kits on the way that promised to pick up the slack in the future. Rowanstar had no such manpower to spare. He can't be strict when he can't enforce any of it. What's he going to do, tell the rebels to back off? They already blame him for the deaths Darktail caused, they couldn't care less about the "leader's word is law" bit of the code. You seem to be under this impression that if Rowanstar just told the rebels to stop, they would stop. But he has nothing backing up those words beyond the code, and it's clear they don't care about the code very much seeing how they were putting Darktail on a pedestal over him. The only way to take back control would be through enforcement, but he doesn't have enough cats to spare to enforce that, so no, he can't do anything really. Even if Needletail had every reason in the world to blame him, her point literally still stands. She's not wrong. Whether she's trying to deflect the blame or not doesn't negate the point she is making because it's literally true when it comes to the standards of what makes a good leader. It doesn't matter, if any other cat said it, the words behind it would not change. I personally don't care that Needle is the one saying it, her words aren't wrong. "A strong leader could have held the clan together." and "A strong leader would already be rebuilding the clan." This is coming from someone who is actually neutral on both Needle and Rowan, but I will criticize, and give credit where it's due. Leafstar is a prime example of what Rowanstar SHOULD have been, but couldn't be because the Erins set him up to fail just so they could shove Tigerstar II into the spotlight. That's the point I'm making. Leafstar, even if her clan isn't traditional in cultural ways of other clan cats, literally has been through hell and back and STILL remained a strong leader to her cats. From the very start, there were those opposed to her leadership, from Sharpclaw becoming her deputy instead of leader instead, to the divide over the Daylight Warriors. And then her clan is literally purged, and they're ran out of their home how many times now? Who's keeping count? How many times has SkyClan been on the brink of extinction? Losing cats left and right to fights, catnappings, sickness, and predators, etc. And this is why I actually grew to like and respect Leafstar as a character because, despite all odds, she still came out on top by the end of AVoS. She brought her clan to the lakes, established a territory, and demanded respect among the other clans. Yes, there was times when she was going to give up hope, but Hawkwing, her deputy, helped her through that. She lost her home, her mate, her kits, almost all of her clan members, and two of her deputies in a span of one book, which is utterly ridiculous. But she chose a good deputy, kept her chin high, even with the other questioned her leadership, and pulled through. This is what I was expecting to see with Rowanstar. This is what I absolutely wanted to see with his character. But again, bad writing on the Erins (and editors) part, because as I've said before, and I'll say it again, Rowan was set up to fail. I knew this already. However, I find it beyond ridiculous that they didn't even seem to really try with his character. Because no matter how you look at it, at least to me, it's a bit strange, underwhelming even. The writing makes it seem like a few cats talking behind his back suddenly takes away all his authority as a leader. And from what I'm seeing in debates, it feels like other people are making Rowan out to be completely powerless when he's not?? Being leader isn't just a title. It's a position in the clan, the highest standing, chosen and approved by StarClan. I'm annoyed that Rowan was so easily shown giving up that said authority, as soon as his son/deputy disappears. Why didn't he name a new one? Find a cat much more responsible than someone that abandons their clan for TC tail? Seriously? Why doesn't he actually challenge those that defy him, he literally has Tiger and Tawny fighting all his arguments, for the most part, defending him, which was frustrating to read. Why didn't he show the same guts he did in StarClan when they said he had no right to be with them at a Leader meeting and he told them off. I wanted to see more of that side of him. I've started to have a neutral viewpoint on him because he was selfless and gave up his position to protect his clan under SkyClan, yes, and I like that he died protecting those he loved (rather ironic when you think about Needle's fate as well), but I just wish there was....more. And now we'll never get that. Because now we have Tigerstar II suddenly in the spotlight. And people wonder why he's suddenly taken a 360 in personality? It's so he fits the "ShadowClan Leader Mold" better. And the writers think they're slick and it won't show them being hypocritical, or the cats in the series being the same, but to fans it's quite obvious, and blatant, at least to me it was. They could have EASILY written Rowan in a way that appeals to ShadowClan cats, but instead used Juniper and Scorch as mouth pieces to say he's a bad leader. It really chalks up to bad writing. To throw a quick piece of evidence in there that Rowanstar never bothered disciplining his Clan: Too late. Rowanstar has admit he's be allowing those apprentices to breaking the Warriors Code for moons without doing anything. I have to admit it confuses me. Whenever the argument is made that Rowanstar needs to give out punishments - A common response is along the lines of: "How can Rowanstar punish anyone without using: violence, abuse, killing, imprisoning etc. He'd be a worse leader for doing that." I mean of course, Rowanstar can punish apprentices without using such extreme methods. Bluestar and Firestar have using punishments for years and everyone respects them: Bluestar - Made Firepaw care for Yellowfang after he ate prey for himself. Put Greystripe and Firestar on apprentices duties after they 'admitted' to eating mice for themselves. Firestar - Made Squirrelpaw care for the elders after wondering off without her mentor. Confided Jaypaw to camp for a day after wondering off and almost drowning in the Lake. Put Berrynose and Birchfall on apprentices duties after causing an unnecessary battle.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 13, 2019 7:14:48 GMT -5
Even if Needletail had every reason in the world to blame him, her point literally still stands. She's not wrong. Whether she's trying to deflect the blame or not doesn't negate the point she is making because it's literally true when it comes to the standards of what makes a good leader. It doesn't matter, if any other cat said it, the words behind it would not change. I personally don't care that Needle is the one saying it, her words aren't wrong. "A strong leader could have held the clan together." and "A strong leader would already be rebuilding the clan." This is coming from someone who is actually neutral on both Needle and Rowan, but I will criticize, and give credit where it's due. Leafstar is a prime example of what Rowanstar SHOULD have been, but couldn't be because the Erins set him up to fail just so they could shove Tigerstar II into the spotlight. That's the point I'm making. Leafstar, even if her clan isn't traditional in cultural ways of other clan cats, literally has been through hell and back and STILL remained a strong leader to her cats. From the very start, there were those opposed to her leadership, from Sharpclaw becoming her deputy instead of leader instead, to the divide over the Daylight Warriors. And then her clan is literally purged, and they're ran out of their home how many times now? Who's keeping count? How many times has SkyClan been on the brink of extinction? Losing cats left and right to fights, catnappings, sickness, and predators, etc. And this is why I actually grew to like and respect Leafstar as a character because, despite all odds, she still came out on top by the end of AVoS. She brought her clan to the lakes, established a territory, and demanded respect among the other clans. Yes, there was times when she was going to give up hope, but Hawkwing, her deputy, helped her through that. She lost her home, her mate, her kits, almost all of her clan members, and two of her deputies in a span of one book, which is utterly ridiculous. But she chose a good deputy, kept her chin high, even with the other questioned her leadership, and pulled through. This is what I was expecting to see with Rowanstar. This is what I absolutely wanted to see with his character. But again, bad writing on the Erins (and editors) part, because as I've said before, and I'll say it again, Rowan was set up to fail. I knew this already. However, I find it beyond ridiculous that they didn't even seem to really try with his character. Because no matter how you look at it, at least to me, it's a bit strange, underwhelming even. The writing makes it seem like a few cats talking behind his back suddenly takes away all his authority as a leader. And from what I'm seeing in debates, it feels like other people are making Rowan out to be completely powerless when he's not?? Being leader isn't just a title. It's a position in the clan, the highest standing, chosen and approved by StarClan. I'm annoyed that Rowan was so easily shown giving up that said authority, as soon as his son/deputy disappears. Why didn't he name a new one? Find a cat much more responsible than someone that abandons their clan for TC tail? Seriously? Why doesn't he actually challenge those that defy him, he literally has Tiger and Tawny fighting all his arguments, for the most part, defending him, which was frustrating to read. Why didn't he show the same guts he did in StarClan when they said he had no right to be with them at a Leader meeting and he told them off. I wanted to see more of that side of him. I've started to have a neutral viewpoint on him because he was selfless and gave up his position to protect his clan under SkyClan, yes, and I like that he died protecting those he loved (rather ironic when you think about Needle's fate as well), but I just wish there was....more. And now we'll never get that. Because now we have Tigerstar II suddenly in the spotlight. And people wonder why he's suddenly taken a 360 in personality? It's so he fits the "ShadowClan Leader Mold" better. And the writers think they're slick and it won't show them being hypocritical, or the cats in the series being the same, but to fans it's quite obvious, and blatant, at least to me it was. They could have EASILY written Rowan in a way that appeals to ShadowClan cats, but instead used Juniper and Scorch as mouth pieces to say he's a bad leader. It really chalks up to bad writing. To throw a quick piece of evidence in there that Rowanstar never bothered disciplining his Clan: Too late. Rowanstar has admit he's be allowing those apprentices to breaking the Warriors Code for moons without doing anything. I have to admit it confuses me. Whenever the argument is made that Rowanstar needs to give out punishments - A common response is along the lines of: "How can Rowanstar punish anyone without using: violence, abuse, killing, imprisoning etc. He'd be a worse leader for doing that." I mean of course, Rowanstar can punish apprentices without using such extreme methods. Bluestar and Firestar have using punishments for years and everyone respects them: Bluestar - Made Firepaw care for Yellowfang after he ate prey for himself. Put Greystripe and Firestar on apprentices duties after they 'admitted' to eating mice for themselves. Firestar - Made Squirrelpaw care for the elders after wondering off without her mentor. Confided Jaypaw to camp for a day after wondering off and almost drowning in the Lake. Put Berrynose and Birchfall on apprentices duties after causing an unnecessary battle. I think people are forgetting that Rowanstar did do these things. He did try and give out punishments like this to the apprentices. He ordered for them to clean ticks off the elders and change nests. The issue isn’t that Rowanstar wasn’t giving out punishments. It’s when he did give them, the apprentices still didn’t do it. Leafstar and Bluestar are only seen as respected because their warriors have a semblance of respect for their elders. Shadowclan cats literally seem to only respect and respond to cats who are just aggressive and scary. They don’t respect cats who genuinely are deserving of respect. Rowanstar’s warriors were no different. They all listened fine in Bramblestar’s Storm, and honestly it seemed Rowanstar was trying to defy help from Thunderclan to keep good graces with his clanmates. I’m guessing that when he was forced to relent after it got bad enough, the clan thought he was weak, which is bull anyway. Rowanstar was trying to dish out punishments, but punishments are null and void when people simply just do not listen or care. Rowanstar can make orders and be as scary as he wants verbally, but if nobody listens anyway, one cat cannot force the clan to do what he wants, without bringing physical force into it. Clearly Shadowclan cats only respond to fear and violence, which is sad really.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 13, 2019 17:26:37 GMT -5
To throw a quick piece of evidence in there that Rowanstar never bothered disciplining his Clan: Too late. Rowanstar has admit he's be allowing those apprentices to breaking the Warriors Code for moons without doing anything. I have to admit it confuses me. Whenever the argument is made that Rowanstar needs to give out punishments - A common response is along the lines of: "How can Rowanstar punish anyone without using: violence, abuse, killing, imprisoning etc. He'd be a worse leader for doing that." I mean of course, Rowanstar can punish apprentices without using such extreme methods. Bluestar and Firestar have using punishments for years and everyone respects them: Bluestar - Made Firepaw care for Yellowfang after he ate prey for himself. Put Greystripe and Firestar on apprentices duties after they 'admitted' to eating mice for themselves. Firestar - Made Squirrelpaw care for the elders after wondering off without her mentor. Confided Jaypaw to camp for a day after wondering off and almost drowning in the Lake. Put Berrynose and Birchfall on apprentices duties after causing an unnecessary battle. I think people are forgetting that Rowanstar did do these things. He did try and give out punishments like this to the apprentices. He ordered for them to clean ticks off the elders and change nests. The issue isn’t that Rowanstar wasn’t giving out punishments. It’s when he did give them, the apprentices still didn’t do it. Leafstar and Bluestar are only seen as respected because their warriors have a semblance of respect for their elders. Shadowclan cats literally seem to only respect and respond to cats who are just aggressive and scary. They don’t respect cats who genuinely are deserving of respect. Rowanstar’s warriors were no different. They all listened fine in Bramblestar’s Storm, and honestly it seemed Rowanstar was trying to defy help from Thunderclan to keep good graces with his clanmates. I’m guessing that when he was forced to relent after it got bad enough, the clan thought he was weak, which is bull anyway. Rowanstar was trying to dish out punishments, but punishments are null and void when people simply just do not listen or care. Rowanstar can make orders and be as scary as he wants verbally, but if nobody listens anyway, one cat cannot force the clan to do what he wants, without bringing physical force into it. Clearly Shadowclan cats only respond to fear and violence, which is sad really. It's quite the conundrum of a situation... I feel like after getting a taste of real cruelty, like Needletail they would realize Darktail was bad news. But whereas Needle paid with her life, the others were luckier and were given a second chance at clan life. And yet....?? Maybe its because they lost so many cats, especially younger ones, and their clan was practically in shambles, and even a clan like SkyClan was stepping all over them. They were itching for a fight, even if it was over a measly rabbit, I don't think Rowan cared as long as it showed him being stronger in their eyes. I don't blame Rowan over the sickness situation, but prior to that, he has some fault as a leader, knowingly letting his apprentices get away with things, even some of the warriors. The lack of authority breeds a lack of respect down the generation line. It's like the apprentices said, there were so many of them, he really didn't know what to do with them. Not to mention there was also him giving newly made and young warriors apprentices right out of the gate, not a bad thing but very much frowned upon. It is sad that at this point ShadowClan cats really only respond to fear and violence. But I think they probably did start to change after Darktail if they so eagerly took Tigerstar II back. It's rather interesting though, like Juniperclaw for example, thought he was in the right to poison cats, it's a very cruel thing to do, yes, but was it really surprising to see a ShadowClan cat do it? I personally think Rowan could and should have rebuilt his clan after the Darktail incident, if Leafstar could do it, and was in a situation that was 3x worse, I felt that Rowan could have too, even if there were naysayers. The collective mind toward him went from disrespectful, to regret, to disappointment and uncertainty during the whole arc. Scorchfur is actually a good cat to look, for example, showed genuine regret when he hurt Tawnypelt, lashing out at her after she attacked him first. But despite it being in defense, he still felt bad for almost blinding her. ShadowClan cats are used to violence, yes, but that doesn't mean some of them don't have morals. Scorchfur also says how can they trust a leader who gives up so easily, I wonder if this was either foreshadowing of him stepping down as leader, or referring to when Darktail constantly pressured his clan during the sickness phase and eventually took over. They were willing to fight for respect but were also pleased when they had demands headed, and got a rabbit out of it thanks to Tigerheart, so it makes sense they started looking to him instead as a strong leader. But when Tigerheart leaves and comes back, he, and other ShadowClan cats are understandably wary of him. I feel that ShadowClan cats at this point just aren't sure where to go, because they don't have the leader they can properly invest in and trust. They did with Rowan but stopped, and then that road was too messed up to go back down again, so they tried new with Tigerheart, unfortunately. The whole situation is just very tricky, bad writing all around. The only thing I'm interested in seeing now at this point is exactly how Tigerstar II leads ShadowClan at this point. Can he really undo generations of conditioning? I doubt it, but I'm interested on seeing anyways.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Mar 13, 2019 19:42:59 GMT -5
Rowanstar deserved better honestly. His Clan is full of nothing but low lives
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Post by Dancing_Totodile on Mar 14, 2019 9:10:47 GMT -5
I think most of it was out of his control. His clan was so obsessed with the days when they were feared, that there was nothing he could have done other than become a bully himself - which really isn't in Rowanstar's nature. Most of it was Needletail's fault. She just wants to blame Rowanstar And afterwards? His clanmates still weren't respecting him. He was probably broken down. This
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