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Post by hazelstar on Mar 8, 2019 20:53:40 GMT -5
This is my unpopular opinion, but please be respectful. I know many say that "this book" and "that book" is or isn't cannon. Umm... that book was released... so it's cannon. Now, I understand how inconsistent the series is due to many authors having different views on the series, which naturally would make one be reluctant to accept what the Erins have put out. But then again, to me at least, the books have always been fun because you were able to fill in the holes and draw your own conclusions! But, that's a bit different... anyways, the bottom line is, the Erins have made many poor decisions, but in the end... the books were released, and no one can ever change that. Be respectful please.
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 8, 2019 20:56:57 GMT -5
Doesn't matter to me. I ain't acknowledging the cursed novella that Vicky thought was a good thing to put in a KIDS series as canon ever. Nor am I considering TUG, which is full of errors and played Assfur as a victim, as canon.
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Post by hazelstar on Mar 8, 2019 20:58:13 GMT -5
Doesn't matter to me. I ain't acknowledging the cursed novella that Vicky thought was a good thing to put in a KIDS series as canon ever. Understandable. But I am simply because I can't seem to put myself in a position to ignore a book that has been released lol
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 21:07:28 GMT -5
People refuse to accept books as canon because a lot of things are either inconsistent or don't make sense to the timeline and the character's personalities.
Let people think that certain books are not canon. It's not a big deal. I refuse to accept CT as canon because it felt like a very biased book to me, like I was reading the whole fandom's opinions on the family in one book. It claims Nightcloud is well respected in the SE, when in OotS, cats know her for exchanging harsh words towards Crowfeather. Ivypool barely knew her, if she even knows she exists, and she suddenly feels a deep respect for her? Not once was Nightcloud admired by her in her PoV. It's forced.
Breezepelt wanted vengeance in OotS, but in CT, he's claimed as some troubled, angry dude who doesn't know how to handle his emotions. Breezepelt wanted power in OotS. He wanted to kill his half siblings.
Nightcloud, like many fans, blamed Crowfeather for everything at fault. She told him to be the example so his Clan would forgive her son, despite the fact that her son tried to do criminal actions and doesn't deserve forgiveness in the first place.
At least,this is why I refuse to accept certain books as canon, for CT. So as long as no one is aggressive about it or says anything hurtful, let us be stubborn about it. I really don't see the problem. No one is going to change my mind about it, either.
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Post by hazelstar on Mar 8, 2019 21:11:28 GMT -5
People refuse to accept books as canon because a lot of things are either inconsistent or don't make sense to the timeline and the character's personalities. Let people think that certain books are not canon. It's not a big deal. I refuse to accept CT as canon because it felt like a very biased book to me, like I was reading the whole fandom's opinions on the family in one book. It claims Nightcloud is well respected in the SE, when in OotS, cats know her for exchanging harsh words towards Crowfeather. Ivypool barely knew her, if she even knows she exists, and she suddenly feels a deep respect for her? Not once was Nightcloud admired by her in her PoV. It's forced. Breezepelt wanted vengeance in OotS, but in CT, he's claimed as some troubled, angry dude who doesn't know how to handle his emotions. Breezepelt wanted power in OotS. He wanted to kill his half siblings. Nightcloud, like many fans, blamed Crowfeather for everything at fault. She told him to be the example so his Clan would forgive her son, despite the fact that her son tried to do criminal actions and doesn't deserve forgiveness in the first place. At least,this is why I refuse to accept certain books as canon, for CT. So as long as no one is aggressive about it or says anything hurtful, let us be stubborn about it. I really don't see the problem. No one is going to change my mind about it, either. Nah, I am not saying it bothers me really. I'm sorry if that's how it came across. But really, I just wanted to share my personal thoughts and why I (feel I have to?) accept what's released, even if it is horrendous. I just wanted to see y'als opinions.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 21:19:52 GMT -5
People refuse to accept books as canon because a lot of things are either inconsistent or don't make sense to the timeline and the character's personalities. Let people think that certain books are not canon. It's not a big deal. I refuse to accept CT as canon because it felt like a very biased book to me, like I was reading the whole fandom's opinions on the family in one book. It claims Nightcloud is well respected in the SE, when in OotS, cats know her for exchanging harsh words towards Crowfeather. Ivypool barely knew her, if she even knows she exists, and she suddenly feels a deep respect for her? Not once was Nightcloud admired by her in her PoV. It's forced. Breezepelt wanted vengeance in OotS, but in CT, he's claimed as some troubled, angry dude who doesn't know how to handle his emotions. Breezepelt wanted power in OotS. He wanted to kill his half siblings. Nightcloud, like many fans, blamed Crowfeather for everything at fault. She told him to be the example so his Clan would forgive her son, despite the fact that her son tried to do criminal actions and doesn't deserve forgiveness in the first place. At least,this is why I refuse to accept certain books as canon, for CT. So as long as no one is aggressive about it or says anything hurtful, let us be stubborn about it. I really don't see the problem. No one is going to change my mind about it, either. Nah, I am not saying it bothers me really. I'm sorry if that's how it came across. But really, I just wanted to share my personal thoughts and why I (feel I have to?) accept what's released, even if it is horrendous. I just wanted to see y'als opinions. No, you're fine. It does bother me when people get hypocritical about it though, when fans say they refuse to accept Spottedleaf's Heart as canon, but when some want Crowfeather's Trial to not be canon for the same reasons, they say it is canon, that's when it bothers me and I come off as defensive. Bc I don't see the problem of refusing to accept other books as canon, especially the guides. Like I said, it shouldn't bother fans so as long as we respect each other and leave our opinions about it be. Unfortunately I have to accept some books as canon, like The Raging Storm, no matter how bad it is. But if it's side books like Spottedleaf's Heart or Crowfeather's Trial, then I think it's okay since these are only short stories.
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Post by hazelstar on Mar 8, 2019 21:22:44 GMT -5
Nah, I am not saying it bothers me really. I'm sorry if that's how it came across. But really, I just wanted to share my personal thoughts and why I (feel I have to?) accept what's released, even if it is horrendous. I just wanted to see y'als opinions. No, you're fine. It does bother me when people get hypocritical about it though, when fans say they refuse to accept Spottedleaf's Heart as canon, but when some want Crowfeather's Trial to not be canon for the same reasons, that's when it bothers me and I come off as defensive. Bc I don't see the problem of refusing to accept other books as canon, especially the guides. Like I said, it shouldn't bother fans so as long as we respect each other and leave our opinions about it be. Unfortunately I have to accept some books as canon, like The Raging Storm, no matter how bad it is. But if it's side books like Spottedleaf's Heart or Crowfeather's Trial, then I think it's okay since these are only short stories. The Guides are absolutely terrible. Don't necessarily consider those "books" though simply because they are not in the cannon timeline really. Although they did have a couple of good stories in those, even though they didn't seem "natural" to me, if that makes any sense at all. And those... inaccurate pictures of the cats....
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Post by CinderpeltFan on Mar 9, 2019 7:58:56 GMT -5
Doesn't matter to me. I ain't acknowledging the cursed novella that Vicky thought was a good thing to put in a KIDS series as canon ever. Nor am I considering TUG, which is full of errors and played Assfur as a victim, as canon. What novella is that?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 9:09:13 GMT -5
People refuse to accept books as canon because a lot of things are either inconsistent or don't make sense to the timeline and the character's personalities. Let people think that certain books are not canon. It's not a big deal. I refuse to accept CT as canon because it felt like a very biased book to me, like I was reading the whole fandom's opinions on the family in one book. It claims Nightcloud is well respected in the SE, when in OotS, cats know her for exchanging harsh words towards Crowfeather. Ivypool barely knew her, if she even knows she exists, and she suddenly feels a deep respect for her? Not once was Nightcloud admired by her in her PoV. It's forced. Breezepelt wanted vengeance in OotS, but in CT, he's claimed as some troubled, angry dude who doesn't know how to handle his emotions. Breezepelt wanted power in OotS. He wanted to kill his half siblings. Nightcloud, like many fans, blamed Crowfeather for everything at fault. She told him to be the example so his Clan would forgive her son, despite the fact that her son tried to do criminal actions and doesn't deserve forgiveness in the first place. Nightcloud that always disappointed me about the Crowfeather's Trail. This was meant to be redemption for the whole Family - Crowfeather and Breezepelt (Too lacklustre for me, but that's a separate topic). However Nightcloud didn't face/acknowledge the role she played in creating this mess of a family. I'd argue she's just as bad as Crowfeather. Many fans will rightfully point out that Crowfeather used her to only prove his loyalty to Windclan. However, it's not nearly brought up enough, Nightcloud guilty of using Crowfeather as well. There was no form of force used, Crowfeather merely offered to be Nightcloud's mate - So she's still at fault for accepting and rushing into it. She could of easily said no or asked for time as friends first. This is the same reason why I disapprove of Dovewing's actions around Bumblestripe. Like Nightcloud, she had a tom was willing to be her mate. However despite both being aware they didn't truly love their mates, they still strung everyone into an unhealthy situation. The Ultimate Guild proves this: Nightcloud never loved Crowfeather. She didn't even have the basic groundwork of being his friend or liking him as a person. Also aware Crowfeather didn't love her either, since she'd have to "make him fall in love with him". No one should enter a relationship when there's no romantic feelings, especially with Nightcloud not even liking him. She was only using Crowfeather for kits. It probably doesn't matter if it was specially Crowfeather, Nightcloud would of probably accept any tom for that reason. Nightcloud and Crowfeather have no pervious history. By the time he was old enough to even consider a relationship, Crowpaw had disappeared for a moon to Sun-Drown Place. And then, he was too wrapped up with Feathertail and Leafpool, which was public knowledge. Crowfeather and Nightcloud even frought against each other in the Windclan Civil War. Since Breezepaw is around the same age as the Three, Nightcloud must of seriously rushed their relationship, becoming mates and pregnant in a short amount of time. Even Nightcloud's motives of having kits comes into question - Not even caring who the kits' father will be. Once she gets her kit in Breezepelt, she almost treats him like an object for her own emotional benefits. Acting possessive and not respecting his independent. Prime example, instead of allowing Breezepelt to develop his own option/relationship of his own father, Nightcloud puts her own bitterness onto her son: Cats of the Clans: Nightcloud hogging Breezepaw to herself:
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 9, 2019 10:00:48 GMT -5
Doesn't matter to me. I ain't acknowledging the cursed novella that Vicky thought was a good thing to put in a KIDS series as canon ever. Nor am I considering TUG, which is full of errors and played Assfur as a victim, as canon. What novella is that? You know the one.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 10:12:52 GMT -5
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Post by Cheetahstar on Mar 9, 2019 13:02:29 GMT -5
Spottedleafs heart will never be accepted into any warrior content I create
the idea of a thistleclaw who actually never moved on from snowfur is a lot more interesting to me and fleshes out his character more
honestly come on erins, wouldnt tigerclaw make more sense? Like maybe she heard about his dark destiny but tried to sway him
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Post by Kibui on Mar 9, 2019 13:17:46 GMT -5
Claiming a book is "not canon" always seems nonsensical to me. That's not to say you're not entitled to like/dislike it for whatever is bugging you about it, obviously, and if you have ideas to fix the problems you have with the book that's great. But claiming something like "yeah this isn't canon!1!" not only sounds unreasonable it also doesn't make any sense. It's been written and published. Therefore it's canon whether you like it or not. End of story.
We as readers have no say in that and claiming a book "isn't canon" is a bit like saying gravity doesn't exist. You don't start floating around if you claim that, do you now?
Again, I don't like the inconsistencies either and I also don't support some of the decisions that have been made concerning the story or characters and we're all free to share and discuss our opinions on all that. I can also understand that sometimes it's problematic to figure out what the canon plot is when one book retcons the other (RoF/ThS). But straight up proclaiming an entire book isn't canon, just because you don't like or dislike certain parts of it (and not doing it as some sort of joke) is just... not something you, me or anyone has a valid say in.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 13:30:57 GMT -5
Claiming a book is "not canon" always seems nonsensical to me. That's not to say you're not entitled to like/dislike it for whatever is bugging you about it, obviously, and if you have ideas to fix the problems you have with the book that's great. But claiming something like "yeah this isn't canon!1!" not only sounds unreasonable it also doesn't make any sense. It's been written and published. Therefore it's canon whether you like it or not. End of story. We as readers have no say in that and claiming a book "isn't canon" is a bit like saying gravity doesn't exist. You don't start floating around if you claim that, do you now? Again, I don't like the inconsistencies either and I also don't support some of the decisions that have been made concerning the story or characters and we're all free to share and discuss our opinions on all that. I can also understand that sometimes it's problematic to figure out what the canon plot is when one book retcons the other (RoF/ThS). But straight up proclaiming an entire book isn't canon, just because you don't like or dislike certain parts of it (and not doing it as some sort of joke) is just... not something you, me or anyone has a valid say in. Try convincing half of the fandom who refuses to accept Spottedleaf's Heart as canon. Not saying this as a rude way or anything, but there's nothing you can do, since most fans agree that they don't want it canon. I just learn to ignore it when they refuse to accept things as canon. Even if you think it's written and published whether we "like it or not", not everyone will see it that way. You can't change everyone's opinion. Just like how people can't change my opinion on Ivypool, or how I refuse to accept CT as canon. It's just something we have to accept. It can be canon to you, but to some others, it's not. So as long as we aren't hurting one another or acting aggressive over it, then it doesnt matter. Not trying to be rude tho, sorry if I come off like that!
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 9, 2019 13:34:43 GMT -5
I will say, my only issue is when people in debates try and make it seem like certain books just don’t exist and make arguments refusing to take into credit those written books. Sure, you might dislike a scene or book, but claiming it as not-canon when in a debate or when evidence is being given does not work. I only give doubt for the Guides because it seems they take existing scenes and make them something entirely different. In this case, I will find the main series more trustworthy than the Guides.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 14:21:22 GMT -5
I will say, my only issue is when people in debates try and make it seem like certain books just don’t exist and make arguments refusing to take into credit those written books. Sure, you might dislike a scene or book, but claiming it as not-canon when in a debate or when evidence is being given does not work. I only give doubt for the Guides because it seems they take existing scenes and make them something entirely different. In this case, I will find the main series more trustworthy than the Guides. I've seen people get mad that fans use Spottedleaf's Heart as canon for debates to prove that Thistleclaw was bad. I may not accept CT as canon, but I count for their actions and what they do in the books. People need to do the same with SH. Their actions are canon. It's not fair to stubbornly refuse what they did just because you didn't like the book. I used the book in a debate once and the person got frustrated and said they don't want SH canon or whatever to try to prove Thistle's actions wrong. It's bias and frustrating to me.
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Post by hazelstar on Mar 9, 2019 17:49:52 GMT -5
Claiming a book is "not canon" always seems nonsensical to me. That's not to say you're not entitled to like/dislike it for whatever is bugging you about it, obviously, and if you have ideas to fix the problems you have with the book that's great. But claiming something like "yeah this isn't canon!1!" not only sounds unreasonable it also doesn't make any sense. It's been written and published. Therefore it's canon whether you like it or not. End of story. We as readers have no say in that and claiming a book "isn't canon" is a bit like saying gravity doesn't exist. You don't start floating around if you claim that, do you now? Again, I don't like the inconsistencies either and I also don't support some of the decisions that have been made concerning the story or characters and we're all free to share and discuss our opinions on all that. I can also understand that sometimes it's problematic to figure out what the canon plot is when one book retcons the other (RoF/ThS). But straight up proclaiming an entire book isn't canon, just because you don't like or dislike certain parts of it (and not doing it as some sort of joke) is just... not something you, me or anyone has a valid say in. Try convincing half of the fandom who refuses to accept Spottedleaf's Heart as canon. Not saying this as a rude way or anything, but there's nothing you can do, since most fans agree that they don't want it canon. I just learn to ignore it when they refuse to accept things as canon. Even if you think it's written and published whether we "like it or not", not everyone will see it that way. You can't change everyone's opinion. Just like how people can't change my opinion on Ivypool, or how I refuse to accept CT as canon. It's just something we have to accept. It can be canon to you, but to some others, it's not. So as long as we aren't hurting one another or acting aggressive over it, then it doesnt matter. Not trying to be rude tho, sorry if I come off like that! Just like you(I appreciate this by the way), I agree(Can't everyone?) that SH is a horrible concept! I mean, seriously, the Erins didn't have to write that. I guess they were trying to address the issue, however, they way it was written was horrible. But, to be fair, it's only like 90 pages and it is subtle to the point where kids may not even notice. I think a lot of people overreact to be honest. But yeah, the book was a tad bit weird and creepy.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 9, 2019 18:12:46 GMT -5
Agreed, it is a pretty stupid thing to do.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Mar 9, 2019 19:03:58 GMT -5
I've said this before, no matter what inconsistencies there are, a published book is canon regardless of feelings. Readers can have their feelings about a certain book or characters, but that's only their opinion. The author has the say in how his or her series will go, not the reader.
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Post by scint on Mar 9, 2019 20:18:59 GMT -5
Hell, I don't like Yellowfang's Secret and Spottedleaf's Heart (I thought that one was okay but it wasn't complete shit) like most of y'all but I regard it as canon because I sure as hell don't have a say in it. The main series books, SEs, and novellas are canon and were published and written for a damned reason- it's not like we have control or own the series lol. We're simply the readers.
...But we can all agree that the guides shouldn't be considered canon, because it shows completely different stuff that was written in canon and the degree where it completely disregards itself, right?
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Mar 11, 2019 14:00:49 GMT -5
The guides are canon as well, so no, not all of us agree that they shouldn't be canon.
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