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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2018 17:08:05 GMT -5
their relationship was pretty abusive, there was like one scene where they cooperated but that's it
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Post by Webnose on Dec 5, 2018 23:30:46 GMT -5
It's a decent ship, I like their interactions in SOTM, it would have been nice to see them stay as friends later on.
I can't say I understand the abuse complaints, if we only had the FE scenes to go off of that would be one thing, but they've clearly moved on. I think the main problem a lot of people have with it is the obnoxious tumblr fans.
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Post by halogen on Dec 9, 2018 0:14:09 GMT -5
I think calling it abusive is too far (like are we going to call FirexSand abusive now because Sandstorm bullied Firestar when they were apprentices?) and I kind of like it but the obsession over it seems too much.
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Post by scint on Dec 9, 2018 0:50:14 GMT -5
I think calling it abusive is too far (like are we going to call FirexSand abusive now because Sandstorm bullied Firestar when they were apprentices?) and I kind of like it but the obsession over it seems too much. I'm sticking with calling it quite unhealthy. We only got one scene of them acting civil around each other, and nothing more. You could say that it means that they became good friends, but there's nothing to prove that and the other way around. Comparing this to FireSand is completely invalid. We got multiple meaningiful scenes of them growing and becoming good friends, plus the fact that this was only in the few scenes we saw Sandstorm in during ITW and FAI. After Firestar saved Sandstorm's life, they got closer and even then, that was in the earlier parts of FAI and the first portion of the arc. IvyBlossom's "development" is completely different. Just because of that one actually meaningful moment in SotM it doesn't mean they're good friends. We haven't seen them interacting too much after that, even in the nursery during RoF/TRS. I'm not basing this off of "what-ifs", only on canon evidence. Meaning, as far as we can tell IvyBlossom is pretty unhealthy for the most part. This is my opinion and I'm not changing it.
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Post by Webnose on Dec 10, 2018 0:18:37 GMT -5
Whether or not Fire/Sand is better developed (which it is) is largely irrelevant to whether or not the relationship is unhealthy, so comparing Blossomfall's behaviour as an apprentice to Sandstorm's isn't unfair. The fact that Sandstorm is only rude to him during a few scenes in the early books, as you pointed out, is similar to how Blossomfall's poor treatment of Ivypool is limited to her assessment rather than a consistent pattern of bullying or hostility. Whether or not Ivypool and Blossomfall can be considered close friends in SOTM is also irrelevant; we're talking about a hypothetical situation in which they would become mates. Since Blossomfall and Ivypool are at the very least on friendly terms with each other by SOTM, enough that Blossomfall would confide in her about her problems with Millie, there is no compelling evidence to support the idea that their relationship would be unhealthy, let alone abusive.
Note that I don't have a problem with people not liking this ship, I can't however agree with the notion that Ivy/Blossom is somehow unhealthy and think people can ship what they want.
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Post by scint on Dec 10, 2018 0:27:45 GMT -5
Whether or not Fire/Sand is better developed (which it is) is largely irrelevant to whether or not the relationship is unhealthy, so comparing Blossomfall's behaviour as an apprentice to Sandstorm's isn't unfair. The fact that Sandstorm is only rude to him during a few scenes in the early books, as you pointed out, is similar to how Blossomfall's poor treatment of Ivypool is limited to her assessment rather than a consistent pattern of bullying or hostility. Whether or not Ivypool and Blossomfall can be considered close friends in SOTM is also irrelevant; we're talking about a hypothetical situation in which they would become mates. Since Blossomfall and Ivypool are at the very least on friendly terms with each other by SOTM, enough that Blossomfall would confide in her about her problems with Millie, there is no compelling evidence to support the idea that their relationship would be unhealthy, let alone abusive. Note that I don't have a problem with people not liking this ship, I can't however agree with the notion that Ivy/Blossom is somehow unhealthy and think people can ship what they want. I'm still sticking with my opinion, like I stated above. People can ship whatever the heck they want, I really don't give a s**t as long as it's not forced upon me (I never said people can't ship what they want in the first place). I think that it's unhealthy and that's not changing, and you don't. I've stated multiple times in this thread my opinion won't be changing anytime soon, and it still hasn't changed even after reading your post. My opinion won't be changing, I still think it's unhealthy.
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Post by Webnose on Dec 10, 2018 0:53:58 GMT -5
Whether or not Fire/Sand is better developed (which it is) is largely irrelevant to whether or not the relationship is unhealthy, so comparing Blossomfall's behaviour as an apprentice to Sandstorm's isn't unfair. The fact that Sandstorm is only rude to him during a few scenes in the early books, as you pointed out, is similar to how Blossomfall's poor treatment of Ivypool is limited to her assessment rather than a consistent pattern of bullying or hostility. Whether or not Ivypool and Blossomfall can be considered close friends in SOTM is also irrelevant; we're talking about a hypothetical situation in which they would become mates. Since Blossomfall and Ivypool are at the very least on friendly terms with each other by SOTM, enough that Blossomfall would confide in her about her problems with Millie, there is no compelling evidence to support the idea that their relationship would be unhealthy, let alone abusive. Note that I don't have a problem with people not liking this ship, I can't however agree with the notion that Ivy/Blossom is somehow unhealthy and think people can ship what they want. I'm still sticking with my opinion, like I stated above. People can ship whatever the heck they want, I really don't give a s**t as long as it's not forced upon me (I never said people can't ship what they want in the first place). I think that it's unhealthy and that's not changing, and you don't. I've stated multiple times in this thread my opinion won't be changing anytime soon, and it still hasn't changed even after reading your post. My opinion won't be changing, I still think it's unhealthy. If you have no intent on changing your opinion or don't want to debate people, then it's your responsibility to stop arguing with them. If you post your viewpoints on a public board meant for discussion, then expect people to disagree with you. I don't know why you replied to halogen in the first place if you clearly don't want an argument. This isn't an attack on you, and the "people can ship want they want" is more of a general statement than specifically directed at you.
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Post by scint on Dec 10, 2018 0:58:58 GMT -5
I'm still sticking with my opinion, like I stated above. People can ship whatever the heck they want, I really don't give a s**t as long as it's not forced upon me (I never said people can't ship what they want in the first place). I think that it's unhealthy and that's not changing, and you don't. I've stated multiple times in this thread my opinion won't be changing anytime soon, and it still hasn't changed even after reading your post. My opinion won't be changing, I still think it's unhealthy. If you have no intent on changing your opinion or don't want to debate people, then it's your responsibility to stop arguing with them. If you post your viewpoints on a public board meant for discussion, then expect people to disagree with you. I don't know why you replied to halogen in the first place if you clearly don't want an argument. This isn't an attack on you, and the "people can ship want they want" is more of a general statement than specifically directed at you. I wasn't arguing with them in the first place. Sometimes I'm in the mood to debate, other times I'm not. I expect people to disagree with me, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to share my response either. I'm fine with debating, and I don't want an argument. An argument and a debate are very different. I'm well aware this isn't an attack on me. What you're saying is offending me, because I'm not considering that at all. Honestly your response was kinda rude to me. You didn't have to reply to me either by your logic.
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Post by Webnose on Dec 10, 2018 1:11:56 GMT -5
If you have no intent on changing your opinion or don't want to debate people, then it's your responsibility to stop arguing with them. If you post your viewpoints on a public board meant for discussion, then expect people to disagree with you. I don't know why you replied to halogen in the first place if you clearly don't want an argument. This isn't an attack on you, and the "people can ship want they want" is more of a general statement than specifically directed at you. I wasn't arguing with them in the first place. Sometimes I'm in the mood to debate, other times I'm not. I expect people to disagree with me, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to share my response either. I'm fine with debating, and I don't want an argument. An argument and a debate are very different. I'm well aware this isn't an attack on me. What you're saying is offending me, because I'm not considering that at all. Honestly your response was kinda rude to me. You didn't have to reply to me either by your logic. I'm basically using "argument" in this context to mean what you're calling a debate. If you're not in the mood for a debate, that's fine. But if that's the case I don't know why you gave halogen a counterargument, and why you then replied to me with "I've stated multiple times in this thread my opinion won't be changing" as if to imply that I shouldn't challenge what you say. What did I say to you that you consider rude? Also no, I didn't have to reply to you, but I'm not the one taking offense to people trying to debate me.
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Post by Sand on Dec 10, 2018 1:37:50 GMT -5
Webnose & scint: Chill out, yeah? Sounds like a good idea so things won't get out of hand here.
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Bisexual
BrightishWolf
Malcolm Bright enthusiast #saveprodigalson
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Post by BrightishWolf on Dec 10, 2018 5:03:37 GMT -5
i enjoy it, but it's definitely not my favorite lgbt Warriors ship. i even think they're better with their canon mates (despite not having read any of AVOS), though i think IvyBlossomFernThorn would be a lot better. poly ships are always the best.
i understand it's not the healthiest ship out (and it's certainly not the only unhealthy ship i enjoy), but i still enjoy it. if it had any possibility of being a thing though, i'd say it would work better in an alternate timeline where Fernsong and Thornclaw don't become their mates. in canon terms though i'd see them becoming more like best friends than anything tbh.
though, it's been awhile since i read OOTS, but i don't exactly recall their friendship being as abusive as everyone claims it is.
also those saying that they don't interact in AVOS, they could very well interact with each other, but since they're not main characters anymore there's no need to actually show it or even mention it? i guess that can just be up to the readers headcanon or whatever though....
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