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nightfrost1211
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Post by nightfrost1211 on Nov 18, 2018 15:16:38 GMT -5
It sort of baffled me to realize that none of the clan cats at least suspected that Mistystar and Stonefur were her kits, and that only like 4 cats knew the truth. I guess Riverclan might have just believed whatever Oakheart and Graypool said, especially since they were the kits of the popular deputy and would never suspect him breaking the code.
Also, there's just so much loopholes in Bluestar/Oakheart's situation. Didn't Riverclan see Oakheart find Mistykit and Stonekit in Crookedstar's Promise, claiming that they were orphaned rogues? Didn't they know that Graypool's litter just passed away, and that these were her adopted kits? If so, did the whole of Riverclan just lie to Mistystar and Stonefur and pretend that Graypool was actually their birth mother??
The whole thing just really confuses me (I might be wrong because I haven't read the first series/Crookedstar's Promise in a while)
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 18, 2018 15:18:44 GMT -5
I remember asking Vicky about this one time, and if I remember correctly, she said that the only reason people didn't ut two and two together much sooner is because no one would question the word of a queen. Something like that.
Either way, it's pretty stupid.
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Post by halogen on Nov 18, 2018 15:21:16 GMT -5
I think they are supposed to not have a good long-term memory in terms of recognizing others visually after not seeing them for a while. We see this when Graystripe returns and no one recognizes him because he smells different and they haven't seen him in many moons. I think it's the same case for Mistyfoot and Stonefur - the ThunderClan cats genuinely don't remember the exact names of the kits who were "killed by a fox" when they were a moon old, too young for anyone to form a clear memory of it, and by the time they show up they smell completely different, and of course an apprentice at the gathering would look completely different than a moon-old kit (like just look at the picture of kits of different ages) and the color of their fur can shift over that time too (compare some one-month old real life kittens with their 6 month or older selves). So from ThunderClan's perspective I think this actually makes sense. Though I think Thrushpelt would have remembered well enough to notice.
As for RiverClan's perspective, you're right about this one not making sense. A lot of these plot lines (this one and the Squirrelflight/Leafpool one) would make more sense if they established in canon that uncommonly but not too rarely a queen might want to give birth on her own and return to camp after a few weeks - I feel I have read there are real cats who do this, though there are also real cats in colonies or homes who will give birth along with other cats and others would even help them in the birth. If that was established then it wouldn't be like "so this queen just ran off to give birth in the snow for some reason and no one questions it?" or "we were all there when this queen's young kits died and now suddenly new kits?"
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 18, 2018 15:24:18 GMT -5
Also, there's just so much loopholes in Bluestar/Oakheart's situation. Didn't Riverclan see Oakheart find Mistykit and Stonekit in Crookedstar's Promise, claiming that they were orphaned rogues? Didn't they know that Graypool's litter just passed away, and that these were her adopted kits? If so, did the whole of Riverclan just lie to Mistystar and Stonefur and pretend that Graypool was actually their birth mother?? The whole thing just really confuses me (I might be wrong because I haven't read the first series/Crookedstar's Promise in a while) Oakheart brought the kits at night, so no one saw him sneaking in and out. And yes, at least those who were older than Mistykit and Stonekit knew they were adopted, and Crookedstar is even surprised that Oakheart is their father when he learns the truth.
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Post by nightfrost1211 on Nov 18, 2018 15:36:21 GMT -5
Also, there's just so much loopholes in Bluestar/Oakheart's situation. Didn't Riverclan see Oakheart find Mistykit and Stonekit in Crookedstar's Promise, claiming that they were orphaned rogues? Didn't they know that Graypool's litter just passed away, and that these were her adopted kits? If so, did the whole of Riverclan just lie to Mistystar and Stonefur and pretend that Graypool was actually their birth mother?? The whole thing just really confuses me (I might be wrong because I haven't read the first series/Crookedstar's Promise in a while) Oakheart brought the kits at night, so no one saw him sneaking in and out. And yes, at least those who were older than Mistykit and Stonekit knew they were adopted, and Crookedstar is even surprised that Oakheart is their father when he learns the truth. Oh okay, that makes more sense. But even then, I'm pretty sure Riverclan knew that Graypool's kits died, so I figured they knew that Mistykit and Stonekit were adopted since in my head I thought of it as "Oh her kits died from leaf-bare famine/cold, so where did these two come from?" I think I always had the headcanon that no one questioned Graypool since she was a queen and plus Oakheart was their deputy Idk I guess this whole situation is pretty stupid anyways so probably any idea works lol
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 18, 2018 15:45:46 GMT -5
Oakheart brought the kits at night, so no one saw him sneaking in and out. And yes, at least those who were older than Mistykit and Stonekit knew they were adopted, and Crookedstar is even surprised that Oakheart is their father when he learns the truth. Oh okay, that makes more sense. But even then, I'm pretty sure Riverclan knew that Graypool's kits died, so I figured they knew that Mistykit and Stonekit were adopted since in my head I thought of it as "Oh her kits died from leaf-bare famine/cold, so where did these two come from?" I think I always had the headcanon that no one questioned Graypool since she was a queen and plus Oakheart was their deputy Idk I guess this whole situation is pretty stupid anyways so probably any idea works lol They did know that Graypool's kits died. That's why I said that at least those older than Mistykit and Stonekit knew they were adopted.
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Post by embertuft on Nov 18, 2018 15:51:36 GMT -5
It is quite annoying how the the lie of Mosskit,Mistykit and Stonekit getting ravaged by foxes just plainly swept over the heads of all the cats in the Clan. Wouldn’t at least ONE have some sort of suspicion about two apprentices in RiverClan called Stonepaw and Mistypaw? And I want to know, how did they forget that in that space of time? Surely loosing three kits would be traumatic to ThunderClan, and they wouldn’t forget it that easily?
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Post by nightfrost1211 on Nov 18, 2018 15:56:05 GMT -5
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 Yeah I know you said that, but I guess I was originally trying to point out that if Riverclan knew Mistykit and Stonekit were adopted, did they think that they were rogues/loners or did they actually know that they were Oakheart's? Because I believe the kits themselves knew their father was Oakheart (and thought their mother was Graypool), but it wouldn't make sense in the context of the clan knowing they were adopted. The fact that they knew Oakheart was their birth father, yet the clan believing that they were a loner's kits just doesn't add up right I'm sorry if I said anything rudely btw
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Post by scint on Nov 18, 2018 16:02:46 GMT -5
The whole thing with Mistystar and Stonefur is confusing and the Clan cats are just really stupid. That's the conclusion that I've came to.
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Post by nightfrost1211 on Nov 18, 2018 16:07:08 GMT -5
The whole thing with Mistystar and Stonefur is confusing and the Clan cats are just really stupid. That's the conclusion that I've came to. This ⇈ is the best conclusion ever lol
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 18, 2018 16:12:42 GMT -5
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 Yeah I know you said that, but I guess I was originally trying to point out that if Riverclan knew Mistykit and Stonekit were adopted, did they think that they were rogues/loners or did they actually know that they were Oakheart's? Because I believe the kits themselves knew their father was Oakheart (and thought their mother was Graypool), but it wouldn't make sense in the context of the clan knowing they were adopted. The fact that they knew Oakheart was their birth father, yet the clan believing that they were a loner's kits just doesn't add up right I'm sorry if I said anything rudely btw Oh no, you're fine. What happened was that after Oakheart brought the kits to RiverClan, he claimed that he found them abandoned, and Graypool backed up his claim, despite knowing they were ThunderClan. The only one who knew the full truth was Crookedstar, but it was only after Mapleshade told him, and Oakheart confirmed it in private. As far as the rest of RiverClan knew, they were just a pair of lost kits Graypool adopted after her own litter died, and I guess they just decided to let the kits believe they were always RiverClan. Forest of Secrets has Mistyfoot telling Fireheart that Oakheart was her father, but Mistystar's Omen mentions she didn't know until after he died.
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Post by dnacat on Nov 18, 2018 16:17:04 GMT -5
Also with the whole "the fox took them and killed them" thing, did none of ThunderClan panic over the fact that there is possible a fox on the territory, that has already killed 3 kits. Search parties would be sent out for the foxes so that they could be killed to avenge the kits. These search parties would also have to smell the territory meaning, they would probably find a trail of Bluestar, Mosskit, Stonekit and Mistykit leading right to the RiverClan border, unless we're still retaining that whole "snow covers scent" thing.
God, clan cats are just really stupid sometimes. Like first Bluestar's kits, and then no one questioned why Bramblestar - a brown tabby tom - and Squirrelflight - a ginger she-cat - had a grey kitten. Dear lord.
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nightfrost1211
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Post by nightfrost1211 on Nov 18, 2018 16:20:56 GMT -5
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 Thanks for the clarification! There seems to be a couple of inconsistencies from Forest of Secrets and Mistystar's Omen from what you said (maybe even more books I'm not sure), so we'll probably never have a specific explanation. Yeah it made most sense to me that Mistystar and Stonefur always figured that their parents were Oakheart and Graypool, but man that's kinda harsh to have most of Riverclan's warriors keep their "being adopted" a secret, even if they were wrong about them being a loner's kits
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Post by kagura on Nov 18, 2018 16:35:29 GMT -5
This thing was bothering me for a while, i'm glad someone brings it up. three kits dissapear with no witness but ther mother and 5 moons later another clan has two apprentices that no only are named exactly like the missing ones but also look the same
So, answering your question, yes they are REALLY dumb.
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Post by Tas on Nov 18, 2018 17:58:48 GMT -5
Convenience.
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Post by Brindlefern on Nov 18, 2018 18:12:10 GMT -5
The cats have always been made abnormally stupid for the sake of making something work for the plot.
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Post by Chocolate-Fawn on Nov 18, 2018 18:18:46 GMT -5
These cats are complete idiots. If foxes really did come into the den wouldn't the other queens in their have noticed. Also remember the situation when Leafpool was pregnant?? No one even noticed, not even the other medicine cats or current/former queens. I mean also has anyone ever seen a pregnant animal?? They are not hard to notice. Also Leafpool was pregnant with a giant known as Lionblaze.
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Post by gonxkillua on Nov 18, 2018 19:22:11 GMT -5
The clans just do not question anything. It might be becuse of all the inbreeding.
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Post by Viperstrike on Nov 18, 2018 19:39:00 GMT -5
It's completely stupid, but I guess the Clan believed her because who would have thought someone would lie like that? It's not every day queens are sending their kits away in a blizzard and then faking their deaths. If anyone questioned it, they probably just didn't speak up because what's done is done and there's nothing you could do now.
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Post by chimken nugget on Nov 18, 2018 19:44:27 GMT -5
They really should have noticed much earlier, especially because of the kits' resemblance to Bluestar.
Bluestar claims her kits have been killed by a fox that no one else saw or heard at all. A few moons later, two kits with the exact same names and appearances, who are the same age, and adopted, are announced as RiverClan apprentices.
Nobody, not even the other queens who knew them, realizes that these are the same cats who supposedly died a few moons ago. And nobody else even questions it. Not even, "Hey, Bluestar, some RiverClan cat gave these two apprentices REALLY SIMILAR NAMES TO YOUR DEAD KITS PLUS THEY LOOK IDENTICAL THIS IS KINDA SUSPICIOUS."
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Post by Amber on Nov 18, 2018 20:05:37 GMT -5
Honestly the whole situation is dumb and has always bothered me.
Firstly there's Sunstar not making a queen deputy and having a temporary deputy like Stormtail or Adderfang in her place while she cares for her kits. There should've been a better reason for the kits to go. Perhaps they get sick and RiverClan has the means to heal them. Or perhaps have Thistleclaw even go full-blown villain and try to kill them for whatever reason. Another idea is maybe cats start to get suspicious and in a last ditch effort to earn her place as deputy or even protect her kits, she gives then up. Maybe she does it thinking they'll have better lives being thought of as outsiders instead of healf-Clan cats. There's plenty of possibilities and ideas that could've been done instead of the weak explanation we got, but that's just my opinion.
Secondly the whole fox took the kits thing that makes zero sense and really makes the cats come across as dumber than a post. First Bluestar had to sneak her kits out of the nursery while keeping quiet and hoping no one sees her then sneak back in. It's not that bad and can feasibly be done. But she then has to make a hole in the nursery while One-eye, Runningkit AND Mousekit are asleep. She also has to do it in a way so she wakes no one up and hopes no one sees on top of probably doing it from the outside to make it believable. Then she has to tell her Clan that in the middle of the night a fox was smart enough to quietly sneak into camp, make a hole in the nursery wall without waking ANY of the cats up, snatch up Bluestar's kits while they slept next to her all without waking up the queens or any of the kits? Also Moss, Misty and Stone wouldn't have cried or anything as they were being dragged away? Like really. Then there's the fact she didn't even try and put fox scent around the den or camp, at least from what I remember. The entire situation is just frustrating and could've been handled q lot better.
Thirdly, Misty and Stone have the exact same names and look exactly like the ThunderClan kits who went missing six moons ago. As someone else mentioned TC probably would've remembered those kits after something so tragic happened. Honestly it would've been better if they were named something different in TC and then given their current names after fleeing. It could've been a very bittersweet moment for the family where they only time they'll be together would be their last as Blue and Oak name their kits together.
And lastly there's the whole weird family relationship in RiverClan. Misty and Stone believe their bio mother is Graypool(If I remember correctly that is)as does the rest of RC. But they also know that Oakheart is their birth father? And then they were found outside of camp and Oakheart brought them in and they passed as Graypool's kits despite them dying days earlier.
Honestly the entire plot of Bluestar's kits should've and could've been better written. A lot of plot holes and things that make the cats look dumb could've easily been solved if the time was taken to think the plot through.
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Post by chimken nugget on Nov 19, 2018 6:51:31 GMT -5
One of the worst instances of cats being dumb is Leafpool's Wish, aka my least favorite novella besides SH.
It was noted in Sunset, I think, that Leafpool looked unusually plump. Everyone knows she just came back from running away with her mate. I was so excited for this novella to have Leafpool and Squirrelflight making a detailed plan to hide the secret, but it was just so disappointing.
Several cats notice that Leafpool looks larger than usual, but nobody cares. They all know what happened with Crowfeather, and no one even thinks that she might be expecting kits. When she leaves with Squirrelflight, she's less than half a moon away from kitting, she mentions several times that it's hard to sit/lie down, and not even the experienced queens realize what's going on.
It's not that they should be able to figure it out immediately, but the fact that that it didn't even occur to anyone (Squirrelflight, who's pretty smart imo, was shocked to find out) shows that the cats are either stupid or impossibly oblivious.
And the plan to hide the secret was terrible. Squirrelflight and Leafpool disappeared into the forest in search of a mystery herb that's conveniently really hard to find. The Clan lets their only medicine cat leave for several days. Leafpool is days away from kitting and nobody notices.
And then Squirrelflight, who doesn't show any signs of expecting kits, supposedly gives birth on the journey and nobody questions it. No one cares that Leafpool is suddenly way thinner or that Jaykit and Hollykit look like Crowfeather (although genetics don't really exist), and I doubt they would have even if Leafpool had named her daughter Crowkit like she originally wanted to.
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Post by Pandean on Nov 19, 2018 17:55:16 GMT -5
One of the worst instances of cats being dumb is Leafpool's Wish, aka my least favorite novella besides SH. It was noted in Sunset, I think, that Leafpool looked unusually plump. Everyone knows she just came back from running away with her mate. I was so excited for this novella to have Leafpool and Squirrelflight making a detailed plan to hide the secret, but it was just so disappointing. Several cats notice that Leafpool looks larger than usual, but nobody cares. They all know what happened with Crowfeather, and no one even thinks that she might be expecting kits. When she leaves with Squirrelflight, she's less than half a moon away from kitting, she mentions several times that it's hard to sit/lie down, and not even the experienced queens realize what's going on. It's not that they should be able to figure it out immediately, but the fact that that it didn't even occur to anyone (Squirrelflight, who's pretty smart imo, was shocked to find out) shows that the cats are either stupid or impossibly oblivious. And the plan to hide the secret was terrible. Squirrelflight and Leafpool disappeared into the forest in search of a mystery herb that's conveniently really hard to find. The Clan lets their only medicine cat leave for several days. Leafpool is days away from kitting and nobody notices. And then Squirrelflight, who doesn't show any signs of expecting kits, supposedly gives birth on the journey and nobody questions it. No one cares that Leafpool is suddenly way thinner or that Jaykit and Hollykit look like Crowfeather (although genetics don't really exist), and I doubt they would have even if Leafpool had named her daughter Crowkit like she originally wanted to. I have a headcanon that the experienced queens did figure it out but they didn't tell anyone.
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