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Post by Maplestone360 on Nov 16, 2018 18:34:51 GMT -5
So I decided to compile a list of examples why. Huge spoilers for The Raging Storm!- He seemingly encouraged his warriors to cross the SkyClan border, which was just looking for excuses to start fights with them - He appointed Juniperclaw as deputy in the first place - He blamed Rowanclaw for giving up ShadowClan land to SkyClan when it was his idea in the first place - He tried to force SkyClan to let ShadowClan hunt on their land - He was willing to drive out SkyClan if they didn't oblige - He tried to bring Bramblestar in on the issue and have him give SkyClan ThunderClan territory instead - He assumed Alderheart was trying to poison Puddleshine, and when Jayfeather defended his treatment, Tigerstar said, "It doesn't seem to have worked." He narrowed his eyes accusingly. "But I know how little you value ShadowClan lives." Jayfeather seemed to recoil. Alderheart frowned. "What do you mean? Jayfeather values every life." "What about Flametail, my littermate?" Tigerstar showed his teeth. Bramblestar lashed his tail. "No cat believed Jayfeather killed your brother. No cat except Dawnpelt, and she was out of her mind with grief!" Tigerstar's gaze stayed on Jayfeather. "You didn't manage to save him, though, did you?" Guilt flashed in Jayfeather's blind blue gaze. "I had to let him go," he whispered. "And now you're trying to let Puddleshine go too," Tigerstar growled. (Page 96) And he actually hurt Jayfeather's feelings. Ouch. That by itself is enough to make me want to punch him in the face. - He wanted to hold Alderheart hostage until Puddleshine was healed and threatened to punish (which some cats thought meant kill) him if Puddleshine died - He sent Juniperclaw to meet with Leafstar and Tree instead of going himself and actually negotiating, who used the excuse of "we're strong again and have more cats and if we can't get more land we'll starve" - He (or Juniperclaw, but if Juniperclaw is doing all this, how is Tigerstar any better than Rowanstar? His warriors wouldn't be listening to him) continued to send patrols into SkyClan territory, who even placed scent markers to make it obvious they had been there - Juniperclaw then led a raid to the SkyClan camp after Leafstar finally retaliated, ruined all their dens and poisoned their prey, which almost killed Sparrowpelt - He wouldn't even consider the possibility that Juniperclaw might've poisoned Sparrowpelt, even when there was evidence piled against him, and only believed it when Juniperclaw actually confessed to it - He was terrified when Shadowkit had a vision about drowning, acting as if it absolutely must be terribly true and taken seriously, but decided to simply ignore a vision that six medicine cats all had at the same time and said, "We've survived prophecies before. We'll survive this one." (Page 192) Like, dude, you can't just pick and choose which visions you want to be real or not! - that time when Bramblestar stopped a tail-length from the ShadowClan leader. He shifted his paws uneasily. "Have you heard about RiverClan's flood?" he began. "We've seen it for ourselves," Tigerstar told him. "RiverClan is sheltering with WindClan," Alderheart told him. "They could have come to us," Tigerstar meowed evenly. "We have enough prey now to spare for a Clan driven from it's home." But not SkyClan. Alderheart swallowed back the words. (Page 286) - He refused to admit that he'd hurt SkyClan even after they came back, saying, "ShadowClan only ever wanted fairness. If I hadn't stood up for what belonged to ShadowClan, nothing would have changed. You would have kept half our land, and my Clanmates would have faced countless moons of hunger." (Page 319) So, at least Tigerstar took Juniperclaw's position away when he confessed, and finally agreed that SkyClan should stay. But all of this could easily have been avoided if he hadn't been so stubborn and willing to drive them away, even letting his warriors do what they pleased against SkyClan if not telling them to, and had actually gone to negotiate with Tree. Instead he tried to throw his weight around and insisted he would die if he didn't get his precious land. His land mattered more to him than the lives of SkyClan. He also ignored the prophecy saying that all the Clans would die if even one was destroyed, which should've been just as bad for him as it spelled out ShadowClan's death. But nope. StarClan prophecies are worthless lies and apply to no one while the visions of his kit are the truth of the universe and must be taken seriously at all costs. Smh. And that's only the things he did in the Raging Storm. If I wanted to include everything else then the list would be much much longer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 16, 2018 18:48:41 GMT -5
He’s literal garbage and doesn’t deserve anything. I hate him as leader so much.
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Post by Chocolate-Fawn on Nov 16, 2018 19:00:55 GMT -5
Dovewing, you need to find a better man. If not get that asshole in line!
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Post by scint on Nov 16, 2018 19:10:02 GMT -5
Yeah, he did do some bad stuff in TRS, but he's not as bad as other leaders we could mention. I'm still willing to give him a chance, though, since this is the only book we've seen him in as leader and this was the last book of AVoS. I think he might start like he did in AVoS, and then grow into a more wise leader as time progresses. Maybe we'll get that in TBC if we get a ShadowClan POV. But I feel like we should give him a chance (even if it's just a smidge), since we only got one book with him as leader.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 16, 2018 19:23:51 GMT -5
Yeah, he did do some bad stuff in TRS, but he's not as bad as other leaders we could mention. I'm still willing to give him a chance, though, since this is the only book we've seen him in as leader and this was the last book of AVoS. I think he might start like he did in AVoS, and then grow into a more wise leader as time progresses. Maybe we'll get that in TBC if we get a ShadowClan POV. But I feel like we should give him a chance (even if it's just a smidge), since we only got one book with him as leader. I was ready to give Rowanstar a chance and he was doing great. I thought we’d have a good Shadowclan leader for once and now it’s just Blackstar all over again. Blaming everyone else for your actions and acting like a complete immoral jerk. The least they could have done if they were going to shove Tigerstar trash down our throats is make him consistent. Nah. I’m done giving him chances, and I’m so tired of Shadowclan. I was excited, genuinely excited to see Rowanstar develop. Now my excitement is destroyed and I have 0 faith or care for Tigerstar. Hope he dies quickly so we can at least get Cloverstar.
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Post by Chocolate-Fawn on Nov 16, 2018 20:31:33 GMT -5
he needs to go out the same way tigerstar #1 did, there's no way we can sit through 9 more lives if he's gonna keep acting like this Okay let me get Scourge
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Post by ivythorn on Nov 16, 2018 20:48:28 GMT -5
I'm really enjoying Tigerheart as leader just for the Drama. He's an idiot and arrogent and not the best choice but I find him fun to read about! I have a weak spot for my dumb vain son I'm sorry...
I do think it would be really cool if he died in one blow, just like the first Tigerstar. It would be good theme wise. I would personally like it if he died doing something good, like defending one of Firestars bloodline just to put him in contrast? I doubt that would happen but it would be cool.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 21:01:12 GMT -5
Really I just wanna know what Kate thinks about Tigerstar now after apparently him "growing on her" during Tigerheart's SE. Checked blogclan and she hasn't said anything about it yet- though no one's asked her as far as I could tell so I mean, maybe someone who's a regular there can ask her.
I'm wondering if this is the Tigerstar the editors wanted, cause like... I just don't feel like this is the character Kate enjoyed. At all. I feel like even if they told her to make him more aggressive or something, she wouldn't have gone as far as making him that bad. It's almost as if they told her to make him literal Satan and there was only so much she could do. It just seems to odd to me for her to be like "hey I'm starting to like this guy" then boom he's a massive jerk.
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 16, 2018 22:13:15 GMT -5
What if the controversial character coming back in The Broken Code is Scourge and Scourge kills him like he killed the original
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 16, 2018 22:19:58 GMT -5
What if the controversial character coming back in The Broken Code is Scourge and Scourge kills him like he killed the original Team Scourge for this battle, 100 percent.
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Post by scint on Nov 16, 2018 22:56:03 GMT -5
Yeah, he did do some bad stuff in TRS, but he's not as bad as other leaders we could mention. I'm still willing to give him a chance, though, since this is the only book we've seen him in as leader and this was the last book of AVoS. I think he might start like he did in AVoS, and then grow into a more wise leader as time progresses. Maybe we'll get that in TBC if we get a ShadowClan POV. But I feel like we should give him a chance (even if it's just a smidge), since we only got one book with him as leader. I was ready to give Rowanstar a chance and he was doing great. I thought we’d have a good Shadowclan leader for once and now it’s just Blackstar all over again. Blaming everyone else for your actions and acting like a complete immoral jerk. The least they could have done if they were going to shove Tigerstar trash down our throats is make him consistent. Nah. I’m done giving him chances, and I’m so tired of Shadowclan. I was excited, genuinely excited to see Rowanstar develop. Now my excitement is destroyed and I have 0 faith or care for Tigerstar. Hope he dies quickly so we can at least get Cloverstar. Well, okay then, but that's your opinion. I'm giving him a chance since I've only seen his leadership in one book, and I want to see where it goes. I'm all for Cloverstar, but I'd rather wait for that because if you hate a character that shouldn't necessarily mean that they need to die quickly in the series so you never have to see them again. What I was trying to say was that we've only seen Tigerstar in action as a leader during TRS, and that we can't really say for sure where his leadership will go at the moment as that was the last book in AVoS. And I can't really compare him to Blackstar, if I'm being honest. Blackstar murdered Stonefur, lost faith in StarClan, etc (I can't remember right now). Meanwhile, we have Tigerstar who we've only seen lead his Clan in TRS. If we get a ShadowClan POV, we might get to see development from him and watching him learn from his stupid mistakes. Leaders make dumb decisions, and Tigerstar's no exception to that. He might learn and grow from his mistakes during his leadership; not every leader is perfect from the start. Although I do see your reasons, I still disagree.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 16, 2018 23:09:36 GMT -5
I was ready to give Rowanstar a chance and he was doing great. I thought we’d have a good Shadowclan leader for once and now it’s just Blackstar all over again. Blaming everyone else for your actions and acting like a complete immoral jerk. The least they could have done if they were going to shove Tigerstar trash down our throats is make him consistent. Nah. I’m done giving him chances, and I’m so tired of Shadowclan. I was excited, genuinely excited to see Rowanstar develop. Now my excitement is destroyed and I have 0 faith or care for Tigerstar. Hope he dies quickly so we can at least get Cloverstar. Well, okay then, but that's your opinion. I'm giving him a chance since I've only seen his leadership in one book, and I want to see where it goes. I'm all for Cloverstar, but I'd rather wait for that because if you hate a character that shouldn't necessarily mean that they need to die quickly in the series so you never have to see them again. What I was trying to say was that we've only seen Tigerstar in action as a leader during TRS, and that we can't really say for sure where his leadership will go at the moment as that was the last book in AVoS. And I can't really compare him to Blackstar, if I'm being honest. Blackstar murdered Stonefur, lost faith in StarClan, etc (I can't remember right now). Meanwhile, we have Tigerstar who we've only seen lead his Clan in TRS. If we get a ShadowClan POV, we might get to see development from him and watching him learn from his stupid mistakes. Leaders make dumb decisions, and Tigerstar's no exception to that. He might learn and grow from his mistakes during his leadership; not every leader is perfect from the start. Although I do see your reasons, I still disagree. I’m just pissed because they could have done all this with Rowanstar. Tigerstar is unnessecary and we had a perfectly good, perfectly complex and capable cat for both Shadowclan POV and leader development. Then they railed on him and destroyed him literally to make Tigerstar look good in comparison. And now he’s just not even good. That’s the infuriating part. Tigerheart was given scenes and development long before Rowanstar was, and they skipped right over him to shove Tigerstar and his romance down our throats. And now a cat who has broken codes, has lied to his family and clan, has abandoned his clan, and who has physically threatened a medicine cat and who has desires to force out the very clan he wanted to be friends with earlier is rewarded with leadership, when a cat who was loyal to the code, loyal to his clan, never threatened his clanmates or the cats who betrayed him, who showed respect to his fellow leaders and to Leafstar, and who we hardly ever got any development for, is demoralized, blamed for everything, has his self esteem destroyed and is murdered by his granddaughter. Oh, and now Tigerstar is blaming Rowanstar for Shadowclan’s problems with Skyclan now too, which is garbage because Tigerstar was desperate to be friendly with Skyclan in TS. It’s like watching a good person get beat up by a bully and then the bully gets a pat on the back for being strong. And I can respect your opinions. Who knows? Tigerstar could get better, sure, but his entire existance as leader is so frustrating.
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Post by scint on Nov 16, 2018 23:22:52 GMT -5
Well, okay then, but that's your opinion. I'm giving him a chance since I've only seen his leadership in one book, and I want to see where it goes. I'm all for Cloverstar, but I'd rather wait for that because if you hate a character that shouldn't necessarily mean that they need to die quickly in the series so you never have to see them again. What I was trying to say was that we've only seen Tigerstar in action as a leader during TRS, and that we can't really say for sure where his leadership will go at the moment as that was the last book in AVoS. And I can't really compare him to Blackstar, if I'm being honest. Blackstar murdered Stonefur, lost faith in StarClan, etc (I can't remember right now). Meanwhile, we have Tigerstar who we've only seen lead his Clan in TRS. If we get a ShadowClan POV, we might get to see development from him and watching him learn from his stupid mistakes. Leaders make dumb decisions, and Tigerstar's no exception to that. He might learn and grow from his mistakes during his leadership; not every leader is perfect from the start. Although I do see your reasons, I still disagree. I’m just pissed because they could have done all this with Rowanstar. Tigerstar is unnessecary and we had a perfectly good, perfectly complex and capable cat for both Shadowclan POV and leader development. Then they railed on him and destroyed him literally to make Tigerstar look good in comparison. And now he’s just not even good. That’s the infuriating part. Tigerheart was given scenes and development long before Rowanstar was, and they skipped right over him to shove Tigerstar and his romance down our throats. And now a cat who has broken codes, has lied to his family and clan, has abandoned his clan, and who has physically threatened a medicine cat and who has desires to force out the very clan he wanted to be friends with earlier is rewarded with leadership, when a cat who was loyal to the code, loyal to his clan, never threatened his clanmates or the cats who betrayed him, who showed respect to his fellow leaders and to Leafstar, and who we hardly ever got any development for, is demoralized, blamed for everything, has his self esteem destroyed and is murdered by his granddaughter. Oh, and now Tigerstar is blaming Rowanstar for Shadowclan’s problems with Skyclan now too, which is garbage because Tigerstar was desperate to be friendly with Skyclan in TS. It’s like watching a good person get beat up by a bully and then the bully gets a pat on the back for being strong. And I can respect your opinions. Who knows? Tigerstar could get better, sure, but his entire existance as leader is so frustrating. Yeah, I definitely agree with you about Rowanstar. He deserved better. I definitely preferred Tigerstar in PoT/OotS, and I think that's the only time I've ever enjoyed reading about him. I'm kinda just 'meh' about him, since I think Rowanstar was still better than him by a long shot. Personally, I wished that instead of Tigerheart becoming leader in TS, that he dies in his own POV and goes to StarClan, and the rest of the book he tries to find the next suitible leader for ShadowClan. (I'd still have Dovewing move to ShadowClan, though. But only if that's what she really wants, otherwise she could go back to ThunderClan.) I'd like that more, but I'll just take what I could get. And I get the frustration with Tigerstar, I wish they'd kept his PoT/OotS personality as a leader, but have him still be serious when he needs to be. That would be quite...interesting for a ShadowClan leader, to say the least.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 16, 2018 23:33:36 GMT -5
I’m just pissed because they could have done all this with Rowanstar. Tigerstar is unnessecary and we had a perfectly good, perfectly complex and capable cat for both Shadowclan POV and leader development. Then they railed on him and destroyed him literally to make Tigerstar look good in comparison. And now he’s just not even good. That’s the infuriating part. Tigerheart was given scenes and development long before Rowanstar was, and they skipped right over him to shove Tigerstar and his romance down our throats. And now a cat who has broken codes, has lied to his family and clan, has abandoned his clan, and who has physically threatened a medicine cat and who has desires to force out the very clan he wanted to be friends with earlier is rewarded with leadership, when a cat who was loyal to the code, loyal to his clan, never threatened his clanmates or the cats who betrayed him, who showed respect to his fellow leaders and to Leafstar, and who we hardly ever got any development for, is demoralized, blamed for everything, has his self esteem destroyed and is murdered by his granddaughter. Oh, and now Tigerstar is blaming Rowanstar for Shadowclan’s problems with Skyclan now too, which is garbage because Tigerstar was desperate to be friendly with Skyclan in TS. It’s like watching a good person get beat up by a bully and then the bully gets a pat on the back for being strong. And I can respect your opinions. Who knows? Tigerstar could get better, sure, but his entire existance as leader is so frustrating. Yeah, I definitely agree with you about Rowanstar. He deserved better. I definitely preferred Tigerstar in PoT/OotS, and I think that's the only time I've ever enjoyed reading about him. I'm kinda just 'meh' about him, since I think Rowanstar was still better than him by a long shot. Personally, I wished that instead of Tigerheart becoming leader in TS, that he dies in his own POV and goes to StarClan, and the rest of the book he tries to find the next suitible leader for ShadowClan. (I'd still have Dovewing move to ShadowClan, though. But only if that's what she really wants, otherwise she could go back to ThunderClan.) I'd like that more, but I'll just take what I could get. And I get the frustration with Tigerstar, I wish they'd kept his PoT/OotS personality as a leader, but have him still be serious when he needs to be. That would be quite...interesting for a ShadowClan leader, to say the least. The least they could have done if they killed Rowan was give us Tawnystar...and they couldn’t even do that...
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Post by scint on Nov 16, 2018 23:45:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I definitely agree with you about Rowanstar. He deserved better. I definitely preferred Tigerstar in PoT/OotS, and I think that's the only time I've ever enjoyed reading about him. I'm kinda just 'meh' about him, since I think Rowanstar was still better than him by a long shot. Personally, I wished that instead of Tigerheart becoming leader in TS, that he dies in his own POV and goes to StarClan, and the rest of the book he tries to find the next suitible leader for ShadowClan. (I'd still have Dovewing move to ShadowClan, though. But only if that's what she really wants, otherwise she could go back to ThunderClan.) I'd like that more, but I'll just take what I could get. And I get the frustration with Tigerstar, I wish they'd kept his PoT/OotS personality as a leader, but have him still be serious when he needs to be. That would be quite...interesting for a ShadowClan leader, to say the least. The least they could have done if they killed Rowan was give us Tawnystar...and they couldn’t even do that... Well said. I would've liked to see Tawnystar, then again I would've loved to see a Strikestar too. But I do think that Tawnypelt would need time to recover after her mate's death, and then she'd try to become ShadowClan's leader in honor of Rowanstar.
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Post by Maplestone360 on Nov 17, 2018 8:42:37 GMT -5
The least they could have done if they killed Rowan was give us Tawnystar...and they couldn’t even do that... Well said. I would've liked to see Tawnystar, then again I would've loved to see a Strikestar too. But I do think that Tawnypelt would need time to recover after her mate's death, and then she'd try to become ShadowClan's leader in honor of Rowanstar. Yeah, that would've been awesome! Sadly, it seems she really doesn't want that. It took a lot to convince her to in the first place, but then she refused after Rowanclaw died. And she let Tigerstar replace her with Juniperclaw.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 17, 2018 9:06:15 GMT -5
Well said. I would've liked to see Tawnystar, then again I would've loved to see a Strikestar too. But I do think that Tawnypelt would need time to recover after her mate's death, and then she'd try to become ShadowClan's leader in honor of Rowanstar. Yeah, that would've been awesome! Sadly, it seems she really doesn't want that. It took a lot to convince her to in the first place, but then she refused after Rowanclaw died. And she let Tigerstar replace her with Juniperclaw. It sucks because she was ready, and then Puddleshine stopped her. Rowanstar verbally supported her, and it was so close. Why even tease us with that crap? Tbh I bet Tawnypelt doesn’t want to ever lead the very cats who had brought her mate down so much. Honestly, Rowanstar was probably the only cat for a very long time who really saw her as a Shadowclan cat and who didn’t want to let her down. So when she lost him, she lost her will to lead.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 12:12:37 GMT -5
From what I've learned just now, Tigerheart doesn't seem to be that kindly of a leader. No doubt you have to be strong and put your Clanmates first, but...dang, he also had to play the "You let Flametail die" card like that. He could've played the "We gotta focus on saving Puddleshine first" card instead.
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