Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Oct 6, 2018 1:21:51 GMT -5
Yeah, you know the one. Where Crowfeather goes to get burdock root or whatever for Breezepelt because he's dying and Jayfeather has this big rant re: why Breezepelt sucks and denies him the herb before finally giving it to Crowfeather before he leaves.
Okay, so this is rendered moot because Jayfeather did give them the herb anyway but idk I didn't get a bunch of "Yay woo Jay tell 'em!" from that scene. Not because of me liking Breezepelt or anything (though I definitely found myself liking his character in CT which is odd because while I might have felt some sympathy for him before --and sympathy doesn't equal liking or me even thinking he was a good cat or that his actions weren't wrong-- he definitely was not a cat I liked) but because of the implications it had for Jayfeather.
So from now on we're going to speak hypothetically about something: Jayfeather refusing to give Crowfeather burdock root because the cat that's dying is Breezepelt. Let's say he did refuse.
That's....disturbing. For multiple reasons. Jayfeather is a medicine cat. He has another code to follow which involves putting aside clan loyalties and personal feelings to help ill cats. We know despite what he says that he has burdock root to spare. He knows it. Yet he is willing to let another cat die due to a personal grudge (that is rightly deserved considering what Breezepelt has done, btw) and go against his oath and the code of a medicine cat.
If Breezepelt did die, then a part of that death would be because of Jayfeather and his grudge and his unwillingness to help another cat despite the code he is supposed to follow.
And that's scary. Because here's the thing. Medicine cats are kinda basically like doctors and I take their medicine cat oaths and code to be similar to the ones doctors take in real life.
Doctors don't just treat good people. They treat bad people. Serial killers. Rapists. Felons. Murderers. etc. It's not 'treat everyone unless they're a bad person then frick them because of personal beliefs'. It's 'treat them'.
I feel if Jayfeather had knowingly refused to give the herb to Crowfeather knowing A. he did have enough to spare and B. that Breezepelt had a good chance of dying without it then he would have spit in everything a medicine cat is and is supposed to be. He would be complicit in not only breaking the code but in someone else dying.
Now, obviously this didn't happen so all of this is rendered moot as I said.
But it, to me, just goes to show that even though it didn't happen, it *could've* if Jayfeather's conscience hadn't said something at the last minute.
And while I know Jayfeather IS spiteful and rude and a bit of a jerk--that's the appeal of his character to some for some reason--he's also, you know, in a specific position where he can't let those personal feelings get in the way of his job which is to save lives, no matter what.
Him even denying Crowfeather at first shows a dark side to his personality. One that I think would both be interesting and scary to explore.
So my question is; what if Jayfeather had said no and Breezepelt died because of the inability to get the right medicine? Would Jayfeather be accountable for some of it? Would it change your opinion of him? Would it change your opinion of whether he's fit for his position as a medicine cat? Does the idea of it bother you? Do you think it would've bothered his Clanmates if they knew? Windclan's members? What d o you think StarClan's reactions would be? The other medicine cats?
I thought this would be an interesting thing to explore. So share.
Edit: this has nothing to do with if you liked the scene, if you agree with Jayfeather, or if you think he always meant to give the herb, etc. This is just exploring the would-be consequences and morality regarding if Jayfeather had denied Crowfeather the herb even though he knew he had enough & Breezepelt died because of it. This isn't about who deserves what or who did what to who or anything. Just an exploration of the questions above.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Oct 6, 2018 1:48:21 GMT -5
Honestly I think Jayfeather had the intention to give Crowfeather the herb. He just wanted to get his point across in his own way. I really don't think he would have not given him the herb tbh
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Post by Fernstep on Oct 6, 2018 2:40:22 GMT -5
The scene overall was fantastic, including the ending... but I still wish he hadn't actually given him the herb.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2018 3:41:21 GMT -5
After everything Breezepelt had done, honestly I wouldn't blame Jayfeather at all. Character get away with killing off "Villains" all the time anyway.
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Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Oct 6, 2018 3:46:04 GMT -5
Honestly I think Jayfeather had the intention to give Crowfeather the herb. He just wanted to get his point across in his own way. I really don't think he would have not given him the herb tbh That's not the point. We're exploring the possibilities of what may have happened if he didn't give Crowfeather the herb and what that would mean for the character and the consequences. It's a hypothetical situation.
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Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Oct 6, 2018 3:48:25 GMT -5
The scene overall was fantastic, including the ending... but I still wish he hadn't actually given him the herb. It definitely was well written, though that's not the question(s). SO...trying to lead this back to the actual discussion I intended: Do you think IF hypothetically Jayfeather had refused to give Crowfeather the herb and Breezepelt died without it that Jayfeather would have had a small role in his death? How do you view that action with the code and laws the medicine cats follow?
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Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Oct 6, 2018 3:50:28 GMT -5
After everything Breezepelt had done, honestly I wouldn't blame Jayfeather at all. Character get away with killing off "Villains" all the time anyway. So is characters killing off villains the same as a medicine cat denying a sick cat medicine if said cat is a villain? Note: I'm not trying to give a 'gotcha' question. Every opinion is valid. I'm just trying to steer this discussion into more of an exploration of the consequences and what-ifs and morality and whatnot of the hypothetical scene.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2018 4:01:11 GMT -5
After everything Breezepelt had done, honestly I wouldn't blame Jayfeather at all. Character get away with killing off "Villains" all the time anyway. So is characters killing off villains the same as a medicine cat denying a sick cat medicine if said cat is a villain? Note: I'm not trying to give a 'gotcha' question. Every opinion is valid. I'm just trying to steer this discussion into more of an exploration of the consequences and what-ifs and morality and whatnot of the hypothetical scene. The Clans ain't humans, so Medicine cats don't have the full ethics of Doctors. Medicine cat have very fine-knight resources of only plants you can find in your local Britsh Woodland. So they are forced to be more selective with who they treat or it could cost the Clan's survival. Also, it's not a requirement in the code for Medicine cats to give up their herbs for other Clans. Breezepelt was already under the care of Kestrelflight. So it wasn't like Jayfeather was completely leaving Breezepelt to die, just raising the possibility. There was still a chance, an alternative treatment could be found for him. Many herbs proform the same task, but with different levels of effectiveness.
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 6, 2018 9:02:15 GMT -5
I have no issue with Jayfeather denying someone who was laughing while slowly torturing him to death some herbs. He has more reason than most to despise Breezepelt.
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Post by wildspirit on Oct 6, 2018 9:07:53 GMT -5
If Jayfeather did not give Crowfeather the burdock root, and Breezepelt died from it, I think it would be very out of character for Jayfeather. As he mentions in the scene when he gives the burdock root to Crowfeather, he says that he's a medicine cat, and just letting a cat die would completely go against his code. He would probably feel responsible for part of his death as your saying, but I really just don't see Jayfeather not giving Crowfeather the herb. Even for someone like his hateful half brother Breezepelt, Jayfeather is not just gonna let him die in that time of weakness.
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Post by Sundance on Oct 6, 2018 11:31:14 GMT -5
I would have been totally on board with Jayfeather not giving Breezepelt the herbs. Wouldn’t change my opinion on him, and I think following the policy “heal every cat no matter” is dangerous. When the patient is an attempted murderer, and has previously sworn his allegiance to hell, and has previously expressed his desire to destroy all the Clans, and you’ve been personally attacked by him, and he’s goaded over your sister’s death, AND you haven’t seen him be remorseful yet ... it is understandable — wise, even — to consider denying him life-saving herbs because in doing so, you could be saving MORE lives. Jayfeather has to consider what consequences his actions could have in the future more so than his grudges from the past.
I imagine WindClan would be angry, Onestar might want to provoke a fight with ThunderClan (and show Bramblestar he has bigger balls but we all know he’s just trying to compensate.) I think ThunderClan would be shocked ... honestly I could see their reaction going either way and having it be realistic for them.
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Post by Mistybreeze on Oct 6, 2018 12:10:35 GMT -5
Jayfeather had just gotten off the hook for Flametail's "murder". He lost his medicine cat rank with no evidence of wrongdoing. Something else happening so soon after would tear the Clans apart. I can see Onestar being enraged and demanding that Jayfeather be exiled for his crimes. Bramblestar would obviously refuse and Onestar will declare war on ThunderClan and try to drive out Jayfeather by force.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Oct 6, 2018 12:10:53 GMT -5
If Jayfeather did not give Crowfeather the burdock root, and Breezepelt died from it, I think it would be very out of character for Jayfeather. As he mentions in the scene when he gives the burdock root to Crowfeather, he says that he's a medicine cat, and just letting a cat die would completely go against his code. He would probably feel responsible for part of his death as your saying, but I really just don't see Jayfeather not giving Crowfeather the herb. Even for someone like his hateful half brother Breezepelt, Jayfeather is not just gonna let him die in that time of weakness. I'm of the opinion that it'd actually be in character. Remember when Ivypool was held hostage by ShadowClan? Jayfeather didn't want to give them catmint, even though Littlecloud was dying. Another instance was when Sandstorm and a few others fell ill; Leafpool wanted catmint to them (...was it catmint? lol I think), but Jayfeather wanted to save it, I believe. He even wanted to set/did set a guard at the Twoleg nest in case Leafpool tried to take it and I distinctly remember the book mentioning that Leafpool was coming into camp repeatedly with muddy paws or something, because she was searching the territory desperately for a remedy. I'm pretty sure that was when catmint was discovered outside camp and we later found out it was Hollyleaf. ...Or perhaps I'm remembering stuff wrong and they're the same event lol I try to avoid Omen of the Stars if possible. But those two instances came to mind, so it's not outside the realm of possibilities. In the end, he did give the herb to Littlecloud to get Ivypool back, and if I recall, Sandstorm (and Cherrykit?) got better on her own.
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Post by Pyropelt on Oct 6, 2018 13:02:16 GMT -5
If Jayfeather said no and Breezepelt died because of the inability to get the right medicine: maybe Crowfeather would've attacked him? Or just yelled at him?
Would Jayfeather be accountable for some of it: I guess a little bit, but not a lot because Breezepelt was dying anyways?
Would it change your opinion of him: No.
Would it change your opinion of whether he's fit for his position as a medicine cat? No. He's still be a valuable medicine cat.
Does the idea of it bother you: No.
Do you think it would've bothered his Clanmates if they knew: Not really. Windclan's members: Oh for sure. Well at least some of them, since didn't some cats still hate Breezepelt?
What do you think StarClan's reactions would be: I'm not sure.
The other medicine cats: I think they would've pitched a fit and try to make Jayfeather feel guilty. Or maybe Puddleshine would've tried to be reasonable and understanding.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Oct 6, 2018 13:39:41 GMT -5
jayfeather: let him die then crowfeather: WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY jayfeather: chill, im just joking. i guess i got this sick sense of humor from you......dad crowfeather: *shook*
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Post by Morticat on Oct 6, 2018 15:40:07 GMT -5
As much as I do not really like Breezepelt, I do think Jayfeather definitely has a duty to treat all injured and sick cats that need his help. As a medicine cat he took that job onto himself to treat without prejudice, or at least to just do the best of his abilities even begrudgingly. I know he was just using that opportunity to have a one up on Crowfeather and strike some fear into his father and have a good laugh at the thought of letting his half-brother just die, but it still puts a bad taste in my mouth that a medicine cat, no matter if it's Jayfeather, Littlecloud, Mothwing, etc etc, would refuse to treat a cat just because of some personal grudge. As much as I really like Jayfeather and I think the scene was interesting and was a good shocker, in reality if Jayfeather had completely refused to offer his services which really was just giving some herbs, not even going there directly to treat Breezepelt, I think that would have not only made ThunderClan look heartless and responsible for Breezepelt's likely death but also put in a bad name for medicine cats and Jayfeather once he passes and goes to StarClan. I feel like it is so out of character especially because of who he was mentored by and how "great" of a medicine cat he is, he should already know that being in his role and knowing what he does about medicine, he is put into a position where he must help those in need and put aside any anger.
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 6, 2018 17:23:16 GMT -5
As much as I do not really like Breezepelt, I do think Jayfeather definitely has a duty to treat all injured and sick cats that need his help. As a medicine cat he took that job onto himself to treat without prejudice, or at least to just do the best of his abilities even begrudgingly. I know he was just using that opportunity to have a one up on Crowfeather and strike some fear into his father and have a good laugh at the thought of letting his half-brother just die, but it still puts a bad taste in my mouth that a medicine cat, no matter if it's Jayfeather, Littlecloud, Mothwing, etc etc, would refuse to treat a cat just because of some personal grudge. As much as I really like Jayfeather and I think the scene was interesting and was a good shocker, in reality if Jayfeather had completely refused to offer his services which really was just giving some herbs, not even going there directly to treat Breezepelt, I think that would have not only made ThunderClan look heartless and responsible for Breezepelt's likely death but also put in a bad name for medicine cats and Jayfeather once he passes and goes to StarClan. I feel like it is so out of character especially because of who he was mentored by and how "great" of a medicine cat he is, he should already know that being in his role and knowing what he does about medicine, he is put into a position where he must help those in need and put aside any anger. It wasn't just "some personal grudge". Breezepelt tried to kill him and was having fun while doing it. Jayfeather personally felt Breezepelt biting and clawing him with full intent to make him suffer before he killed him. Saying it's just a grudge is like saying that a building being set on fire is just a little candle.
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Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Oct 6, 2018 19:50:50 GMT -5
As much as I do not really like Breezepelt, I do think Jayfeather definitely has a duty to treat all injured and sick cats that need his help. As a medicine cat he took that job onto himself to treat without prejudice, or at least to just do the best of his abilities even begrudgingly. I know he was just using that opportunity to have a one up on Crowfeather and strike some fear into his father and have a good laugh at the thought of letting his half-brother just die, but it still puts a bad taste in my mouth that a medicine cat, no matter if it's Jayfeather, Littlecloud, Mothwing, etc etc, would refuse to treat a cat just because of some personal grudge. As much as I really like Jayfeather and I think the scene was interesting and was a good shocker, in reality if Jayfeather had completely refused to offer his services which really was just giving some herbs, not even going there directly to treat Breezepelt, I think that would have not only made ThunderClan look heartless and responsible for Breezepelt's likely death but also put in a bad name for medicine cats and Jayfeather once he passes and goes to StarClan. I feel like it is so out of character especially because of who he was mentored by and how "great" of a medicine cat he is, he should already know that being in his role and knowing what he does about medicine, he is put into a position where he must help those in need and put aside any anger. It wasn't just "some personal grudge". Breezepelt tried to kill him and was having fun while doing it. Jayfeather personally felt Breezepelt biting and clawing him with full intent to make him suffer before he killed him. Saying it's just a grudge is like saying that a building being set on fire is just a little candle. What would you call it then? Jayfeather CAN hold a grudge against someone for trying to kill him AND it can be completely acceptable and the grudge CAN be rightly deserved.....and still make the wrong choice from an ethical standard. imo
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 6, 2018 20:26:42 GMT -5
It wasn't just "some personal grudge". Breezepelt tried to kill him and was having fun while doing it. Jayfeather personally felt Breezepelt biting and clawing him with full intent to make him suffer before he killed him. Saying it's just a grudge is like saying that a building being set on fire is just a little candle. What would you call it then? Jayfeather CAN hold a grudge against someone for trying to kill him AND it can be completely acceptable and the grudge CAN be rightly deserved.....and still make the wrong choice from an ethical standard. imo Saying "some" makes it sound as if it's just some random minor thing, as if Breezepelt had cut him off in front of a Gathering once.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 7, 2018 1:49:10 GMT -5
Kinda glad he gave Crowfeather the herb, otherwise he'd make his way into the trashcan alongside Hawkheart and Ravenwing. (Must be a bird-name thing.)
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Post by Moonblazer on Oct 7, 2018 7:24:36 GMT -5
Sure, he can be angry and refuse to give the herb out of spite and anger, indirectly speeding up the death process if the herb was needed, but then how would Jayfeather be any better than Breezepelt had been in the past if he desired to see his half-brother wither in death and illness?
I dislike Jayfeather’s attitude most of the time, but it would be insanely strange for him to not give the herb in my opinion. Morally, Jayfeather is a good cat, and if he willingly refused to give someone treatment, even if it was Breezepelt, that seems to me that Jayfeather lets grudges guide his actions. Which he doesn’t.
So yes, I believe Jayfeather was right to give the herb because he’s a morally good cat and he’s better than Breezepelt in the past.
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 7, 2018 8:08:12 GMT -5
Sure, he can be angry and refuse to give the herb out of spite and anger, indirectly speeding up the death process if the herb was needed, but then how would Jayfeather be any better than Breezepelt had been in the past if he desired to see his half-brother wither in death and illness? I dislike Jayfeather’s attitude most of the time, but it would be insanely strange for him to not give the herb in my opinion. Morally, Jayfeather is a good cat, and if he willingly refused to give someone treatment, even if it was Breezepelt, that seems to me that Jayfeather lets grudges guide his actions. Which he doesn’t. So yes, I believe Jayfeather was right to give the herb because he’s a morally good cat and he’s better than Breezepelt in the past. Killing someone because their bloodline personally offends you=/=killing someone because they're a bloodthirsty killer who tried to kill you and showed no repentance. They are in no way equal as a situation and if Jayfeather had done it, he'd not be as bad as Breezepelt had been.
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Post by Moonblazer on Oct 7, 2018 8:14:14 GMT -5
Sure, he can be angry and refuse to give the herb out of spite and anger, indirectly speeding up the death process if the herb was needed, but then how would Jayfeather be any better than Breezepelt had been in the past if he desired to see his half-brother wither in death and illness? I dislike Jayfeather’s attitude most of the time, but it would be insanely strange for him to not give the herb in my opinion. Morally, Jayfeather is a good cat, and if he willingly refused to give someone treatment, even if it was Breezepelt, that seems to me that Jayfeather lets grudges guide his actions. Which he doesn’t. So yes, I believe Jayfeather was right to give the herb because he’s a morally good cat and he’s better than Breezepelt in the past. Killing someone because their bloodline personally offends you=/=killing someone because they're a bloodthirsty killer who tried to kill you and showed no repentance. They are in no way equal as a situation and if Jayfeather had done it, he'd not be as bad as Breezepelt had been. I’m just saying. It showed that Jayfeather was still a morally good cat and chose to help Breezepelt even after all Breezepelt had done to him and his siblings. Honestly it made me like Jayfeather alot more because it showed he is morally strong even when someone has hurt him.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2018 10:25:15 GMT -5
Killing someone because their bloodline personally offends you=/=killing someone because they're a bloodthirsty killer who tried to kill you and showed no repentance. They are in no way equal as a situation and if Jayfeather had done it, he'd not be as bad as Breezepelt had been. I’m just saying. It showed that Jayfeather was still a morally good cat and chose to help Breezepelt even after all Breezepelt had done to him and his siblings. Honestly it made me like Jayfeather alot more because it showed he is morally strong even when someone has hurt him. I never understood this logic, "If a victim does the same thing to what the offender did to them first, the victim is just as bad.". I'm not denying the original victim doing the same thing to the offender, obviously would lose some of their innocence/credibility. However, the one who always did it first, unprovoked against an innocent person, will always be the worse by default. So if Jayfeather refused to give the Herb, he'd still be nowhere near as bad as Breezepelt. Jayfeather didn't cause Breezepelt's injuries in first place. Neither is it an obligation for Medicine cats to give up herbs for other Clans, when it could be used to save their own Clanmate. Jayfeather would only be guilty of failing to help an already dying cat. Breezepelt meanwhile, has 3 victims, and actively seeked them out and personally caused the wounds himself, which is attempted murder. And by the time, Jayfeather was asked to give up the root, Breezepelt had already committed his crimes. Of course, Jayfeather isn't as bad for refusing to save a dying attempted mass murderer.
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Post by Moonblazer on Oct 7, 2018 10:35:28 GMT -5
I’m just saying. It showed that Jayfeather was still a morally good cat and chose to help Breezepelt even after all Breezepelt had done to him and his siblings. Honestly it made me like Jayfeather alot more because it showed he is morally strong even when someone has hurt him. I never understood this logic, "If a victim does the same thing to what the offender did to them first, the victim is just as bad.". I'm not denying the original victim doing the same thing to the offender, obviously would lose some of their innocence/credibility. However, the one who always did it first, unprovoked against an innocent person, will always be the worse by default. So if Jayfeather refused to give the Herb, he'd still be nowhere near as bad as Breezepelt. Jayfeather didn't cause Breezepelt's injuries in first place. Neither is it an obligation for Medicine cats to give up herbs for other Clans, when it could be used to save their own Clanmate. Jayfeather would only be guilty of failing to help an already dying cat. Breezepelt meanwhile, has 3 victims, and actively seeked them out and personally caused the wounds himself, which is attempted murder. And by the time, Jayfeather was asked to give up the root, Breezepelt had already committed his crimes. Of course, Jayfeather isn't as bad for refusing to save a dying attempted mass murderer. A dying attempted mass murderer who is actively trying to better himself, that’s the difference for me. If cats only get one chance and people believe they can never have a chance at any redemption after committing an act, then that’s bullcrap and we can sentence Blackstar, Hollyleaf, Needletail and Clear Sky to the Dark Forest for their inexcusable crimes. I’m not going into that, so don’t start quoting things please. I’m not saying Jayfeather is as bad as anyone else. I’m saying that it would be him, a sworn medicine cat who made vows to treat any cat, lowering himself to a cat who acts based on grudges and witholds herbs from a dying cat. That would just be cruel in my opinion. How you or some others feel is your opinion. This is mine. I’m glad Jayfeather made himself the better cat and chose to honor his responsabilities and vows as a medicine cat over the hurt he had gone through. I’d much rather have that then have him uncaringly leave any cat to die. Sorry, but that’s not changing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2018 12:07:38 GMT -5
I remember something a bit similar in Fire And Ice, when Brokenstar gets blinded by Yellowfang. Some cats want Brokenstar (a known murderer and tyrant) to be thrown out, but Bluestar and Whitestorm disagree on throwing him out. Whitestorm even says that if they banished him to the wild while being blind, they'd be no better than he is.
All I'm saying is that I think that's what Jayfeather's doing: a "turning the other cheek" kind of way. He has every right to be angry at Breezepelt for his past crimes, but I don't think he'd let any cat die, no matter if they're good or bad. That's all.
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Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Oct 7, 2018 14:35:27 GMT -5
Sure, he can be angry and refuse to give the herb out of spite and anger, indirectly speeding up the death process if the herb was needed, but then how would Jayfeather be any better than Breezepelt had been in the past if he desired to see his half-brother wither in death and illness? I dislike Jayfeather’s attitude most of the time, but it would be insanely strange for him to not give the herb in my opinion. Morally, Jayfeather is a good cat, and if he willingly refused to give someone treatment, even if it was Breezepelt, that seems to me that Jayfeather lets grudges guide his actions. Which he doesn’t. So yes, I believe Jayfeather was right to give the herb because he’s a morally good cat and he’s better than Breezepelt in the past. Same. I remember reading the scene right before he actually went and gave the herb and was thinking "Crap! I know Jayfeather's kind of a moody jerk with a bad attitude, but he's not a bad cat who would let someone die, right?"
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