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Post by justice4sadbois on Sept 30, 2018 0:34:19 GMT -5
Hey y'all! I have been a HUGE fan of Warriors for like my whole life and I recently decided to reread the entire series according to this suggested reading order. I just finished reading the first arc and have been mostly perusing the novellas/mangas/super editions that occur either before or during that time period. I just finished reading Pinestar's Choice and Goosefeather's Curse today. One thing I do want to mention real quick is wow poor Goosefeather his life is so sad and he pretty much never gets a happy ending or any sort of conclusion But what I really want to discuss is whether or not Pinestar can be considered a good leader, based on how he's described in PSC, GFC, and Bluestar's Prophecy. In my opinion, I think that Pinestar could never live up to Bluestar's or even Firestar's legacy. I think that he was forced into the leadership position when he wasn't ready, due to the Great Hunger among other things. He just wasn't prepared for the emotional burden and the loneliness, which is why he seeks out Jake and Shanty. It's what we see Firestar dealing with in The Darkest Hour a little bit although it seems Firestar is able to find a stronger support system. Pinestar just gets overwhelmed with everything and trusts kittypets over his own clanmates which I don't think is a terrible reflection on his character, but I think it is a bad reflection on his leadership. There's also the issue of StarClan pretty much outright warning Pinestar that his son will bring destruction, and Pinestar among all his other problems doesn't know how to cope. I do respecting him for recognizing that his Clan deserved better and of course they get a wonderful string of leaders in Sunstar, Bluestar, Firestar, Bramblestar, etc. Anyways this is something that has been on my mind since reading BSP, the novellas, and even the little excerpt in Code of the Clans I think where Lionpaw discusses the most recent addition to the warrior code. I'd like to hear other people's opinions on Pinestar's leadership and the decisions he had to make and whether or not he can be considered a truly "great" leader. Sorry for the wall of text (not a lot of opportunity for me to actually talk about warriors with people, unfortunately) and thank you!
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Post by Fernstep on Sept 30, 2018 0:48:56 GMT -5
Hola. Nice wall of text.
It's kinda hard to judge Pinestar's leadership overall since we only see the tail end of it, when he's already started having thoughts of running away and is cracking under the pressure a bit. From what we do know, there doesn't seem to be anything that suggests he was any worse than the average leader. Even the circumstances of his ascension to leadership, I think, weren't the worst thing he could've had to deal with, since it's common for deputies to become leader when they least expect it, as the leader always seems like an infallible wall until suddenly they lose their last life. As a matter of moral fibre overall, I think Pinestar was well enough suited to being leader, although it goes without saying that he wasn't on the level of Bluestar or Firestar. His story is more of a tragedy than an outright failure.
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Post by justice4sadbois on Sept 30, 2018 2:14:00 GMT -5
I think that's a really great point about the tragedy. I think I might be judging him a bit harshly, just because of the perspectives we're offered. Of course Pinestar choosing to leave the Clan to be a kittypet has a pretty clear negative effect on Tigerkit/star so I think reading Pinestar's Choice directly after Tigerclaw's Fury created a bit of a bias in me. And you're also right about how we are only exposed to the last part of his leadership in detail; it might be comparable to a Bluestar situation where she was a great leader up until she had a crisis of faith, the difference being that we get to see more of Bluestar in her prime before she cracks under the pressure whereas we see more of Pinestar's crisis.
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Post by Fernstep on Sept 30, 2018 2:25:29 GMT -5
I think that's a really great point about the tragedy. I think I might be judging him a bit harshly, just because of the perspectives we're offered. Of course Pinestar choosing to leave the Clan to be a kittypet has a pretty clear negative effect on Tigerkit/star so I think reading Pinestar's Choice directly after Tigerclaw's Fury created a bit of a bias in me. And you're also right about how we are only exposed to the last part of his leadership in detail; it might be comparable to a Bluestar situation where she was a great leader up until she had a crisis of faith, the difference being that we get to see more of Bluestar in her prime before she cracks under the pressure whereas we see more of Pinestar's crisis. This is my primary gripe with Pinestar's Choice. Prior to that book, the effect that Pinestar's "retirement" had on his son was tragically ironic. Tigerclaw probably wouldn't have been so hungry for power if his father hadn't been abjectly weak, but there was no way Pinestar could have known that. But the book itself presents a story where StarClan specifically told Pinestar that he must raise Tigerkit with compassion in order to prevent him from becoming something terrible, or that he must kill the kit instead. The second instruction is just plain stupid, because there was no way any father would have ever followed through with that, while the first one puts a huge dent in Pinestar's character and story because it means that he knew exactly what Tigerkit had the potential to become, and then left anyway after being told not to do that.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Sept 30, 2018 2:55:46 GMT -5
I think that's a really great point about the tragedy. I think I might be judging him a bit harshly, just because of the perspectives we're offered. Of course Pinestar choosing to leave the Clan to be a kittypet has a pretty clear negative effect on Tigerkit/star so I think reading Pinestar's Choice directly after Tigerclaw's Fury created a bit of a bias in me. And you're also right about how we are only exposed to the last part of his leadership in detail; it might be comparable to a Bluestar situation where she was a great leader up until she had a crisis of faith, the difference being that we get to see more of Bluestar in her prime before she cracks under the pressure whereas we see more of Pinestar's crisis. This is my primary gripe with Pinestar's Choice. Prior to that book, the effect that Pinestar's "retirement" had on his son was tragically ironic. Tigerclaw probably wouldn't have been so hungry for power if his father hadn't been abjectly weak, but there was no way Pinestar could have known that. But the book itself presents a story where StarClan specifically told Pinestar that he must raise Tigerkit with compassion in order to prevent him from becoming something terrible, or that he must kill the kit instead. The second instruction is just plain stupid, because there was no way any father would have ever followed through with that, while the first one puts a huge dent in Pinestar's character and story because it means that he knew exactly what Tigerkit had the potential to become, and then left anyway after being told not to do that. THIS. This is exactly why I can't stand Pinestar. He's a weak leader and and coward
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Post by Fernstep on Sept 30, 2018 2:58:25 GMT -5
This is my primary gripe with Pinestar's Choice. Prior to that book, the effect that Pinestar's "retirement" had on his son was tragically ironic. Tigerclaw probably wouldn't have been so hungry for power if his father hadn't been abjectly weak, but there was no way Pinestar could have known that. But the book itself presents a story where StarClan specifically told Pinestar that he must raise Tigerkit with compassion in order to prevent him from becoming something terrible, or that he must kill the kit instead. The second instruction is just plain stupid, because there was no way any father would have ever followed through with that, while the first one puts a huge dent in Pinestar's character and story because it means that he knew exactly what Tigerkit had the potential to become, and then left anyway after being told not to do that. THIS. This is exactly why I can't stand Pinestar. He's a weak leader and and coward That's not what I was going for. My problem wasn't with Pinestar, and I think calling him either of those things is an oversimplification of what is essentially an ethically grey character with good intentions who buckled under pressure. My problem is with the book for creating a ridiculous scenario that doesn't add anything to what we know about his character and only serves to perpetuate the trend of novellas revealing that every important character knew about every important event that happened before, during, or after their era.
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Post by justice4sadbois on Sept 30, 2018 13:39:16 GMT -5
I think that perceiving Pinestar as a coward is valid especially after the information revealed in his novella. I don't necessarily think he was weak as he did make hard decisions for his clan, but by the end of his leadership I think he just recognized that he was not the right cat to lead ThunderClan. It's just as Lionpaw says, the clan would be weaker with a leader who doesn't want to lead anymore.
In one of the Erin Hunter chats, Kate says something like Goosefeather wasn't a bad cat but misguided and I think we could say the same about Pinestar. He wasn't the greatest leader but he wasn't the worst; he was just faced with tough choices and after they kept stacking on top of one another he couldn't handle the pressure.
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