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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 14:30:41 GMT -5
I'm still mad that Breezepelt got off scott-free. Yes, he had clanmates who didn't trust him, but he wasn't exiled nor did he ever lose anything. This guy had it easy and that pisses me off. Breezepelt wanted to kill a blind medicine cat and a pregnant she-cat just to frame him, insulted the memory of Hollyleaf, and sided with the Dark Forest. Yet here he is, barely working hard to earn the trust of his Clanmates, with a family and kits. Crowfeather was forced and guilt tripped into bonding with him. He should have done this by his own damn will.
It makes me mad because Hollyleaf, a cat who also killed, exiled herself, had to work hard to earn her Clanmates' trust and even accepted that some will never forgive her. She gave up HER FREAKING LIFE over a cat she barely knew, and made amends with Leafpool. Breezepelt had it easy. Onestar, at the very least, should have exiled him. His excuse? He attacked ThunderClan cats, not his Clanmates. Completely biased and idiotic. Breezepelt deserves to be exiled, and then maybe the Erins could have developed him outside his Clan. Cats have worked so hard to earn their own reputation, but Crowfeather ended up doing the hard work for him to "give his clanmates an example". Honestly it's just frustrating how poorly handled this cat was
debate all you want you won't change my mind sorry
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Post by Jaysnow on Sept 28, 2018 14:31:30 GMT -5
Big mood
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 14:32:39 GMT -5
One of the few things in Warriors I will be forever salty with tbh
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 14:33:30 GMT -5
He's pathetic because he was "isolated and lonely" lol... please.
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Post by gonxkillua on Sept 28, 2018 14:37:20 GMT -5
What really made me mad was Breezepelt making excuses for himself saying he never betrayed the clans and just wanted to be understood when he was clearly out for blood. I would've been more ok witu his redemption if he honstanly admired that what did was inexcusable and that he deserved most of the hate that was thrown at him but that never happened. I cant buy his redemption when he is still trying to justify his crimes.
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Post by *Faith* on Sept 28, 2018 14:38:14 GMT -5
Onestar was literally angry at his Clanmates because he forgave Breezepelt, but they wouldn't. *Sigh*
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Post by Fernstep on Sept 28, 2018 14:42:07 GMT -5
I wish Jayfeather was actually out of burdock root
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 14:44:08 GMT -5
Onestar was literally angry at his Clanmates because he forgave Breezepelt, but they wouldn't. *Sigh* And that's my problem. It's FORCED.All of this felt so FORCED. Nightcloud says Crow needs to be an example to his Clanmates so they can forgive their son. Onestar was angry at his Clanmates for not forgiving him. Ashfoot told Crowfeather to love him again. It's forced and gross and I hated this book because of it. Crow should have done this by his own will, it's so unfair to those who didn't do anything that bad and still got punished. Breezepelt was a horrible cat who joined the dark forest for a petty excuse and got off scott-free, ugh.
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Post by kinkajou on Sept 28, 2018 14:49:59 GMT -5
P r e a c h
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Post by gonxkillua on Sept 28, 2018 14:58:53 GMT -5
Honestly I wish he had just died in TLH as a villain.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 28, 2018 15:49:44 GMT -5
Onestar was literally angry at his Clanmates because he forgave Breezepelt, but they wouldn't. *Sigh* And that's my problem. It's FORCED.All of this felt so FORCED. Nightcloud says Crow needs to be an example to his Clanmates so they can forgive their son. Onestar was angry at his Clanmates for not forgiving him. Ashfoot told Crowfeather to love him again. It's forced and gross and I hated this book because of it. Crow should have done this by his own will, it's so unfair to those who didn't do anything that bad and still got punished. Breezepelt was a horrible cat who joined the dark forest for a petty excuse and got off scott-free, ugh. It felt forced to you. It didn’t feel forced to me. Yeah, Breezepelt doesn’t deserve scott free forgiveness. But he didn’t really get that from his clan. Most of them clearly did not and will not forgive him anytime soon. Onestar’s not a Thunderclan leader. Windclan is probably different in terms of who they think is loyal and deserving of exile or not. I’m not aiming to change your mind because I don’t really care about changing minds, I’m just saying that I didn’t feel like it was forced for me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 15:59:08 GMT -5
And that's my problem. It's FORCED.All of this felt so FORCED. Nightcloud says Crow needs to be an example to his Clanmates so they can forgive their son. Onestar was angry at his Clanmates for not forgiving him. Ashfoot told Crowfeather to love him again. It's forced and gross and I hated this book because of it. Crow should have done this by his own will, it's so unfair to those who didn't do anything that bad and still got punished. Breezepelt was a horrible cat who joined the dark forest for a petty excuse and got off scott-free, ugh. It felt forced to you. It didn’t feel forced to me. Yeah, Breezepelt doesn’t deserve scott free forgiveness. But he didn’t really get that from his clan. Most of them clearly did not and will not forgive him anytime soon. Onestar’s not a Thunderclan leader. Windclan is probably different in terms of who they think is loyal and deserving of exile or not. I’m not aiming to change your mind because I don’t really care about changing minds, I’m just saying that I didn’t feel like it was forced for me. That's your opinion. *shrugs*
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 28, 2018 15:59:43 GMT -5
Blackstar hereby bequeaths the medal of “Getting Away With It”, Second Class to the newest member of the ex-war criminal club
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 16:03:06 GMT -5
Blackstar hereby bequeaths the medal of “Getting Away With It”, Second Class to the newest member of the ex-war criminal club Like I said multiple times, half of the fandom doesn't like or care for Blackstar. *sigh*
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 28, 2018 16:08:46 GMT -5
Blackstar hereby bequeaths the medal of “Getting Away With It”, Second Class to the newest member of the ex-war criminal club Although, Breezepelt’s clanmates openly disliked and never really forgave him. They accused him of some pretty rough stuff, rightfully so. Blackstar on the other hand got off so scott-free that he makes the Dollar Store look like an expensive boutique.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 16:12:59 GMT -5
Blackstar hereby bequeaths the medal of “Getting Away With It”, Second Class to the newest member of the ex-war criminal club Although, Breezepelt’s clanmates openly disliked and never really forgave him. They accused him of some pretty rough stuff, rightfully so. Blackstar on the other hand got off so scott-free that he makes the Dollar Store look like an expensive boutique. I never cared for him. He's as bland as a rock. I don't understand his popularity and imo he isn't even that good of a leader for letting Sol take over. Though I did like him when he sided with TC in Eclipse.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 28, 2018 16:16:20 GMT -5
Although, Breezepelt’s clanmates openly disliked and never really forgave him. They accused him of some pretty rough stuff, rightfully so. Blackstar on the other hand got off so scott-free that he makes the Dollar Store look like an expensive boutique. I never cared for him. He's as bland as a rock. I don't understand his popularity and imo he isn't even that good of a leader for letting Sol take over. Though I did like him when he sided with TC in Eclipse. I think he’s okay, but the Sol thing and especially him in Starclan right now just make me like him less and less. I’m serious when I say that if people think Breezepelt got off easy, Blackstar takes the cake for getting away with the stuff he did lol.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 28, 2018 16:22:19 GMT -5
Blackstar hereby bequeaths the medal of “Getting Away With It”, Second Class to the newest member of the ex-war criminal club Although, Breezepelt’s clanmates openly disliked and never really forgave him. They accused him of some pretty rough stuff, rightfully so. Blackstar on the other hand got off so scott-free that he makes the Dollar Store look like an expensive boutique. Breezepelt also never killed anyone, that’s why he’s only second class. The medal in first class is held by Blackstar as the founding group member. Ashfur also gets first class posthumously(taking a life from Firestar counts). Breezepelt has to step up his game to get the first class medal of “Getting Away With It”.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 28, 2018 16:56:26 GMT -5
Although, Breezepelt’s clanmates openly disliked and never really forgave him. They accused him of some pretty rough stuff, rightfully so. Blackstar on the other hand got off so scott-free that he makes the Dollar Store look like an expensive boutique. Breezepelt also never killed anyone, that’s why he’s only second class. The medal in first class is held by Blackstar as the founding group member. Ashfur also gets first class posthumously(taking a life from Firestar counts). Breezepelt has to step up his game to get the first class medal of “Getting Away With It”. Exactly. Smh, he was close, but not quite there.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 17:08:03 GMT -5
crowfeather's trial but it's breezepelt's trial and he has a reasonable redemption and dies
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Post by Fernstep on Sept 28, 2018 17:08:20 GMT -5
And that's my problem. It's FORCED.All of this felt so FORCED. Nightcloud says Crow needs to be an example to his Clanmates so they can forgive their son. Onestar was angry at his Clanmates for not forgiving him. Ashfoot told Crowfeather to love him again. It's forced and gross and I hated this book because of it. Crow should have done this by his own will, it's so unfair to those who didn't do anything that bad and still got punished. Breezepelt was a horrible cat who joined the dark forest for a petty excuse and got off scott-free, ugh. It felt forced to you. It didn’t feel forced to me. Yeah, Breezepelt doesn’t deserve scott free forgiveness. But he didn’t really get that from his clan. Most of them clearly did not and will not forgive him anytime soon. Onestar’s not a Thunderclan leader. Windclan is probably different in terms of who they think is loyal and deserving of exile or not. I’m not aiming to change your mind because I don’t really care about changing minds, I’m just saying that I didn’t feel like it was forced for me. I was actually just about to say that the most "forced" part of the book for me wasn't Breezepelt's pretense of "only wanting to serve his Clan" or whatever, but instead the way that the rest of WindClan acted like complete jerks in this book for no good reason. It defied logic how much random background cats like Gorsetail or Leaftail did ridiculous things like wondering if Breezepelt left his mother behind to die (yeah, sure, the one cat that he actually likes, he definitely left her behind to die) or saying that all of the Dark Forest trainees, not just Breezepelt, couldn't be trusted. The book got a lot of mileage out of making Breezepelt appear to be a victim by having the cats who were the actual victims of his treachery suddenly turn into unlikeable morons.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 28, 2018 17:28:03 GMT -5
It felt forced to you. It didn’t feel forced to me. Yeah, Breezepelt doesn’t deserve scott free forgiveness. But he didn’t really get that from his clan. Most of them clearly did not and will not forgive him anytime soon. Onestar’s not a Thunderclan leader. Windclan is probably different in terms of who they think is loyal and deserving of exile or not. I’m not aiming to change your mind because I don’t really care about changing minds, I’m just saying that I didn’t feel like it was forced for me. I was actually just about to say that the most "forced" part of the book for me wasn't Breezepelt's pretense of "only wanting to serve his Clan" or whatever, but instead the way that the rest of WindClan acted like complete jerks in this book for no good reason. It defied logic how much random background cats like Gorsetail or Leaftail did ridiculous things like wondering if Breezepelt left his mother behind to die (yeah, sure, the one cat that he actually likes, he definitely left her behind to die) or saying that all of the Dark Forest trainees, not just Breezepelt, couldn't be trusted. The book got a lot of mileage out of making Breezepelt appear to be a victim by having the cats who were the actual victims of his treachery suddenly turn into unlikeable morons. This, I can agree with. I did find it strange how they seriously believed, of all cats, that Breezepelt would ever hurt the only cat he openly and clearly loved. That...was pretty strange.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 17:29:22 GMT -5
I was actually just about to say that the most "forced" part of the book for me wasn't Breezepelt's pretense of "only wanting to serve his Clan" or whatever, but instead the way that the rest of WindClan acted like complete jerks in this book for no good reason. It defied logic how much random background cats like Gorsetail or Leaftail did ridiculous things like wondering if Breezepelt left his mother behind to die (yeah, sure, the one cat that he actually likes, he definitely left her behind to die) or saying that all of the Dark Forest trainees, not just Breezepelt, couldn't be trusted. The book got a lot of mileage out of making Breezepelt appear to be a victim by having the cats who were the actual victims of his treachery suddenly turn into unlikeable morons. This, I can agree with. I did find it strange how they seriously believed, of all cats, that Breezepelt would ever hurt the only cat he openly and clearly loved. That...was pretty strange. This was honestly the ONLY time I ever felt sorry for Breezepelt. It was obvious he loved his mother.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 28, 2018 23:05:41 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure we can all just agree to disagree. No one is really innocent here, yeah Breezepelt did crappy things but he wasn't the only one.
Onestar shouldn't get snippy with anyone period, he's an utter moron of a leader anyways.
The rest of the clan actually thinking Breezepelt would actually leave his mother to die was just...down right messed up.
And at the same time, Breezepelt himself has done really horrible things, but he at least worked to better himself for his actions.
Unlike other cats who were rewarded for misdeeds, *cough* Blackstar and Ashfur *cough*.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 4:23:30 GMT -5
I think his Clanmates accusing he would leave his mother to die makes perfect sense. Breezepelt wanted nothing more then to kill his half-siblings, seemed perfectly willing to kill his father, attacked his father's ex-mate and apart of the mob that killed his Grandmother. He tried killing so many members of his family, his mother would seem to no expectation.
I also think the Clanmate's treatment is very justified, he sided with a gang of Mass Murderers, including Brokenstar and Tigerstar, who have a well-known history of purging Windclan. They killed 8 of his clanmates, tried to kill plenty more, which included Heathertail/Nightcloud and he personally and happily attacked Clanmates himself. He wished death upon all the Clans. That brief moment where one Windclan cat wished death upon him, is only in reasponse, for Breezepelt wishing death upon all of them first.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 29, 2018 4:33:24 GMT -5
Breezepelt leaving his mother to die would be incredibly OOC, even for him. Because she was the only one he didn't blame for the hatred in his life. Leafpool? Sure. Crowfeather, 100%. His half siblings? Yup. Also, prior to all of this, we didn't even know how Ashfoot died, and Breezepelt being blamed for her death just because he was part of the the DF trainees is a bit biased. Plenty of cats died during that fight, both clan cats and trainees alike, so if you're going to blame him, you might as well blame the whole lot. Also he literally admitted, even before CT, that his real goal was getting rid of his half-siblings and making his father pay, he didn't really care about the DF or their plans.
Also, I feel like people are openly and blatantly ignoring the fact that Breezepelt literally had an entire redemption arc because of all these bad things. Which is way, wayyyy more than a lot of cats in the series ever did. Also, no one is saying the cats aren't justified for being angry at Breezepelt, but thinking he'd want to leave his mother behind to die, is just too much. Because he'd be the last cat to ever do that period, and he mourned for her "death" more than the other cats. They were literally spitting on Night's grave just to take jabs at Breezepelt, and that was disgusting.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 6:26:41 GMT -5
Breezepelt leaving his mother to die would be incredibly OOC, even for him. Because she was the only one he didn't blame for the hatred in his life. Leafpool? Sure. Crowfeather, 100%. His half siblings? Yup. Also, prior to all of this, we didn't even know how Ashfoot died, and Breezepelt being blamed for her death just because he was part of the the DF trainees is a bit biased. Plenty of cats died during that fight, both clan cats and trainees alike, so if you're going to blame him, you might as well blame the whole lot. Also he literally admitted, even before CT, that his real goal was getting rid of his half-siblings and making his father pay, he didn't really care about the DF or their plans. Also, I feel like people are openly and blatantly ignoring the fact that Breezepelt literally had an entire redemption arc because of all these bad things. Which is way, wayyyy more than a lot of cats in the series ever did. Also, no one is saying the cats aren't justified for being angry at Breezepelt, but thinking he'd want to leave his mother behind to die, is just too much. Because he'd be the last cat to ever do that period, and he mourned for her "death" more than the other cats. They were literally spitting on Night's grave just to take jabs at Breezepelt, and that was disgusting. As readers, we have an insight to the world, the characters themselves don't. Sure, we know that Breezepelt is less likely to kill Nightcloud, however, his Clanmates wouldn't know that. They don't know the full ins and outs of Nightcloud's and Breezepelt's relarionship, through POV from Crowfeather himself. To them, there had been multiple incidents where Nightcloud and Crowfeather were bickering amongst themselves without even noticing Breezepelt watching them. The character ain't experts of a killer's psyche. So when they see a cat who's willing to kill his father and half-siblings, it's not too much of a strench or even logical he could easily go after his mother as well. And because a parent spoils their evil kits, doesn't make them immune to being killed by them - Raggedstar spoiled Brokenstar, but that didn't stop him being murdered. Same logic alines with Breezepelt. Also, Breezepelt is treated separately from all the other trainees, because he's different. Almost all the Trainees never actually fought for the Dark Forest, they instantly went into hiding and then soon sided with Starclan/The Clans. They never wanted what Dark Forest's true goal was - They were there because they were lied to and said they were only getting extra training to be better warriors for their Clans, nothing more. However by the time, the truth revealed, they couldn't do anything in their dreams due to the threat of death. If they tried, they would have died like Beetlewhisker. Only when they had the backup of all the Clans, could they hope to fight back. Those Trainees were tricked and by the time they knew the truth, it was too late and kept incredibly guilty afterwards. However, Breezepelt, like Redwillow - Even after they knew the Dark Forest wanted to wipe out the Clans, including their Clanmates, they revelled in it. He wanted Windclan, including Ashfoot, to die. Breezepelt fraught for the Dark Forest in the entire time, personally trying to kill his Half-siblings and attacking his own Clanmates. So, yes, Breezpelt is partly reasonable for his Grandmother's death, because he willingly betrayed his friends/family, to be apart of the Group of Mass Murderers who were committing genocide. Breezepelt didn't feel guilty, in fact, he felt proud/smug in Dovewing's silence. He was pround to be part of the group who killed 8 of his Clanmates, fellow trainees and 1 Shadowclan kit. It's the same reason why some people dislike Needletail and Brokenstar's followers - Even if they didn't personally kill their clanmates, they still willingly supported the group who did.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 29, 2018 7:13:11 GMT -5
Breezepelt leaving his mother to die would be incredibly OOC, even for him. Because she was the only one he didn't blame for the hatred in his life. Leafpool? Sure. Crowfeather, 100%. His half siblings? Yup. Also, prior to all of this, we didn't even know how Ashfoot died, and Breezepelt being blamed for her death just because he was part of the the DF trainees is a bit biased. Plenty of cats died during that fight, both clan cats and trainees alike, so if you're going to blame him, you might as well blame the whole lot. Also he literally admitted, even before CT, that his real goal was getting rid of his half-siblings and making his father pay, he didn't really care about the DF or their plans. Also, I feel like people are openly and blatantly ignoring the fact that Breezepelt literally had an entire redemption arc because of all these bad things. Which is way, wayyyy more than a lot of cats in the series ever did. Also, no one is saying the cats aren't justified for being angry at Breezepelt, but thinking he'd want to leave his mother behind to die, is just too much. Because he'd be the last cat to ever do that period, and he mourned for her "death" more than the other cats. They were literally spitting on Night's grave just to take jabs at Breezepelt, and that was disgusting. As readers, we have an insight to the world, the characters themselves don't. Sure, we know that Breezepelt is less likely to kill Nightcloud, however, his Clanmates wouldn't know that. They don't know the full ins and outs of Nightcloud's and Breezepelt's relarionship, through POV from Crowfeather himself. To them, there had been multiple incidents where Nightcloud and Crowfeather were bickering amongst themselves without even noticing Breezepelt watching them. The character ain't experts of a killer's psyche. So when they see a cat who's willing to kill his father and half-siblings, it's not too much of a strench or even logical he could easily go after his mother as well. And because a parent spoils their evil kits, doesn't make them immune to being killed by them - Raggedstar spoiled Brokenstar, but that didn't stop him being murdered. Same logic alines with Breezepelt. Also, Breezepelt is treated separately from all the other trainees, because he's different. Almost all the Trainees never actually fought for the Dark Forest, they instantly went into hiding and then soon sided with Starclan/The Clans. They never wanted what Dark Forest's true goal was - They were there because they were lied to and said they were only getting extra training to be better warriors for their Clans, nothing more. However by the time, the truth revealed, they couldn't do anything in their dreams due to the threat of death. If they tried, they would have died like Beetlewhisker. Only when they had the backup of all the Clans, could they hope to fight back. Those Trainees were tricked and by the time they knew the truth, it was too late and kept incredibly guilty afterwards. However, Breezepelt, like Redwillow - Even after they knew the Dark Forest wanted to wipe out the Clans, including their Clanmates, they revelled in it. He wanted Windclan, including Ashfoot, to die. Breezepelt fraught for the Dark Forest in the entire time, personally trying to kill his Half-siblings and attacking his own Clanmates. So, yes, Breezpelt is partly reasonable for his Grandmother's death, because he willingly betrayed his friends/family, to be apart of the Group of Mass Murderers who were committing genocide. Breezepelt didn't feel guilty, in fact, he felt proud/smug in Dovewing's silence. He was pround to be part of the group who killed 8 of his Clanmates, fellow trainees and 1 Shadowclan kit. It's the same reason why some people dislike Needletail and Brokenstar's followers - Even if they didn't personally kill their clanmates, they still willingly supported the group who did. Raggedstar and Brokenstar's relationship are not even comparable though. Raggedstar was left alive as punishment for Yellowfang breaking the code, he was going to turn out horrible no matter how much he was spoiled. Also Raggedstar didn't have both of his parents, yes Yellowfang was around, but no one knew who the real mother was, and Raggedstar spoiled him. But not in a good way. Whereas Nightcloud did it out of the affection of a mother and trying to make up for Crowfeather's neglect, Raggedstar was doing it to take jabs at Yellowfang for choosing her life as a medicine cat over him, and because of his personal hatred for his father, whom he killed. Brokenstar was ambitious, not in a good way either, he wanted to be leader, he wanted Cloudpelt to die because his father promised him deputyship one day, and even leader, and when he was finally made deputy he kills his father not long after that. Ironically after Ragged begs Yellowfang for help, because he admits he needed help and that he's been turning a blind eye to his son's true personality and how he was turning out. Brokenstar didn't care about family ties period, he never did, he only cared about power. I feel like a lot of people forget that he blatantly murdered his own uncle and aunt, Mintkit and Marigoldkit, just to frame Yellowfang. Breezepelt at least loved his mother, always has, that never changed. And considering these cats have been around them, they're probably aware of the situation among them. Also, blood ties and loyalty are two different things in warrior clans, kin have killed kin or fought, because of being on different sides. Onestar, even if it was a dumb excuse, pointed out that Breezepelt never successfully attacked one of their own Clanmates, he could care less if it was a cat from another, kin or not. However, when talking about kin from your own clan, that's different. Although Breezepelt hated his father at one point enough to one him dead, he never attempted to take his life, only his half-siblings from another clan, and literally, Crow was no better because he agreed with the idea of his own son being murdered. And again, Breezepelt literally said he didn't care about the DF, for him it was an opprotunity to kill his half-siblings in another clan. There's also literally an entire scene dedicated to DF cats feeding into his insecurities and hatred, influencing him to be worse. Also when has Breezepelt ever said anything like that, wanting everyone and even Ashfoot to die? There's a difference between wanting to end the warrior code and the time of the clans, compared to literally exterminating living cats, which was the goal period. And, for the third time, lol, Breezepelt's real target was Holly, Jay and Lion. No one is denying that Breezepelt did horrible things, no one is denying that he wasn't sorry for his actions AT THE TIME, but things have changed. CT still happened. He's been redeemed, he's developed past that, I don't get why people are still talking about him like he's STILL caught up in the past. Heck, his redemption arc imo was 100x better than Clear Sky's, and at least he got a proper one unlike cats who were rewarded with crap behavior like Blackstar. Imo, Breezepelt isn't a monster like everyone is trying to make him out to be, but just some punk, with a bad family issue, and fell in with the wrong crowd, and did stupid shit.
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Post by Brindlefern on Sept 29, 2018 8:23:35 GMT -5
This is why I said before that Windclan in CT was almost, if not MV levels of bad. They're very easy to blame Breezepelt for every little thing even when he states otherwise. And in this case, for them to assume he'd EVER leave Nightcloud, the one cat who he's openly shown to love, to die in those tunnels alone is messed up, because he'd NEEEEVER do that in any circumstance, yet they're so willing to put the blame on him for it, even taking his grieving for her "death" as guilt as if he left her to die. Quick to assume much? I know Windclan cats are prickly frickers but holy SH- that was just all around frustrating to read through.
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