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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 12:55:22 GMT -5
Some people call it to abuse while others call it simply being strict/distant. Do fans get the wrong ideas due to the Dark Forest? Is the 'abuse' used accurately? What are your options? Keep debates reasonable, no insulting or endless aggression as I know this topic is conversational.
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Post by kinkajou on Sept 15, 2018 13:07:38 GMT -5
Nope (as in no its not exaggerated)
I am NOT saying breeze it innocent though
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 15, 2018 13:22:31 GMT -5
i consider the scene in the sight to be the most important. crowfeather clearly did care for his son but nightcloud didn't let him near him or let him help carry him home. so in a way, it is a little bit exaggerated.
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Post by Sundance on Sept 15, 2018 13:44:53 GMT -5
Oh yes, absolutely. I think Crowfeathers treatment of Breezepelt is often exaggerated. :-P I copy-and-pasted all their interactions (minus Crowfeather's Trial since it hadn't come out yet) w/ my thoughts in another recent thread ... so I'm just going to put that here again for the sake of simplicity. Prepare yourself for a mountain of text. xD
The Sight
Breezepaw is first introduced to us as a bad-mannered apprentice.
Crowfeather reprimands Breezepaw for speaking rudely to Jaypaw; this isn't out of the ordinary for a father to do.
Again, another instance where Crowfeather says something to his son that isn't out of line -- Nightcloud and Breezepaw both get offended and overreact.
Crowfeather is shown to be extremely concerned for his sons welfare. Has all the attributes of a dutiful father.
Night Whispers
Notice how it says Breezepelt is looking at BOTH of his parents with undisguised rage.
Breezepelt attacks a helpless Leafpool, Crowfeather leaps to her defense as he rightly should.
The Last Hope
I think Crowfeather is being truthful here, and that it was meant for the reader to take his word on this.
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Post by Sundance on Sept 15, 2018 13:45:07 GMT -5
Outcast-Eclipse
Don't have much to say here. Breezepaw doesn't want to go to the mountains, but Onestar thinks it's be a good idea, so Crowfeather reluctantly agrees. What's there to fuss about?
Certainly rude of Crowfeather. Won't justify it, but will note that parents snap at their children all the time when tense.
Jaypaw's commentary aside, here's Crowfeather readily teaching his son how to hunt in the mountains.
Two cases of Breezepaw being hostile and uncaring towards outsiders, entirely on his on, not as a byproduct of how he was raised. (Which, for the record, we never DO see him as a kit.) Crowfeather's responses are understandable given the circumstances.
Brambleclaw and Crowfeather reprimand their kids for acting inappropriately. Breezepaw talks back to his father, insults Purdy. Two things that are commonly seen as unacceptable and disrespectful for a child to do. Certainly enough to warrant a hiss, and any further rebuttal, from Crowfeather.
These three quotes are the only times I'd consider Crowfeather to be overly, unnecessarily mean to Breezepaw. Still ... are a few harsh words really enough to label Crowfeather as an abusive father? I sure don't think so. Sometimes parents mess up, let their anger get the best of them. Snapping at someone, a few times, when they might not deserve it doesn't automatically label that same someone a verbally abusive person.
Breezepaw recklessly endangers himself, Crowfeather tells him off. Typical of a parent.
As shown above, Crowfeather does not encourage Breezepaw before battle, nor congratulate him when catching a rabbit. And my response to that is . . . so what? :-P It shows he is by no means a GOOD father. In fact, overall I would consider Crowfeather to be a horrible father, but it's also not grounds to call him neglectful or abusive, in my opinion.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 15, 2018 13:45:48 GMT -5
Crowfeather admits to not doing what he should have in the past. He knows he did genuinely neglect his son. I’m just happy that he admitted this and worked to better himself.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Sept 15, 2018 13:59:38 GMT -5
Crowfeather admits to not doing what he should have in the past. He knows he did genuinely neglect his son. I’m just happy that he admitted this and worked to better himself. Yup. It's stated from his own perspective multiple times that he wasn't there for his son. There was even one instance where Breezepelt was injured badly as an apprentice in a similar way to Featherpaw, and when Breezepelt mentioned it off-handedly as awkward reassurance, Crowfeather realized he didn't even know about Breezepelt's incident, because he ignored his son so much (and he felt guilty about it, to be fair). He acknowledges this tons of times in his POV, and even stops blaming Nightcloud entirely for it like it came off in during the battle in TLH. He was in denial about it for a while, but fully recognized that he neglected Breezepelt and treated him unfairly somewhat early in his book when Onestar and Nightcloud called him out, as well as with some own introspection. Neglect is abuse; it's not physical, but it's emotional and psychological. So no, imo, it's not exaggerated. EDIT: Of course, this doesn't excuse Breezepelt's actions later, but we're talking about Crowfeather atm! Breezepelt is a whole other can of worms.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 14:05:12 GMT -5
Yes... and no. Yes that it’s often exaggerated to the point where it’s made to seem like Crowfeather hasn’t tried to be a good dad at all and basically had no soul, when in fact he did try, but no regarding how he did technically give up, and a good parent doesn’t give up. Sure Nightcloud pushes him away a lot but that’s not much excuse to ignore him.
Basically Crowfeather did try, and did effectively parent- he just got it wrong. He always criticized and never praised Breezepelt. All he saw was a naughty child who always got into trouble and never considered treating the situation in a more sympathetic manner- he just fought fire with fire.
Right now my younger sister’s going through the middle school phase and I’ve learned this principle all too well. She’s in constant need of attention and wants to do everything with me, but I have work and college and a lot of things to keep me busy so I’m not around as much as she wants. And when I am I try to hang out with her but sometimes I just want some alone time to wind down, and she has a fit, acts all sassy and angry and all that jazz and my natural reaction is to leave me alone cause I’ve had a long day and don’t want to deal with it and her mood explodes even more.
My head naturally tells me “she needs to get her act together herself” , contrast to my mom who is all sweet talk and calm reactions, and sure enough, she calms down and gets over it. Now yes, there are times that my mom’s stern with her but it’s only in serious situations. It’s just a fact that children absorb the negative energy of their parents. If a parent yells at their kid the kid’ll yell back.
There just needs to be a balance, and Crowfeather didn’t have it. In the spectrum of sweet and sharp, he was pretty extreme on the sharp. And that had negative consequenses, whether he meant it or not.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 15, 2018 14:22:57 GMT -5
something bothers me about the "you should have more faith in our son" line from nightcloud...nightcloud's "faith" in her son only led to him thinking he could do NO WRONG and that everything he did was awesome and correct, even when it wasnt because nightcloud herself didn't correct his wrong doings either
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 14:32:03 GMT -5
Sundance I've awakened the Quote Beast within you.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 14:33:03 GMT -5
To me it's distant. Crowfeather still isn't sunshine & rainbows but he's really not as bad as everyone says he is. He just simply doesn't give him attention. He never physically or mentally hurt him. There were even times when he saved his son way back in PoT. It's clear that he cares for him, and was even proven recently in CT. Fans cannot deny that he doesn't care. I don't think Crowfeather is "abusive" at all. He is emotionally distant, that's all.
Comparing him to Millie and Rainflower, Crowfeather really isn't that bad. He just has issues and he's trying to fix them now. Besides, Nightcloud and Breezepelt themselves are both as much at fault as Crow is, but I'm not going to get onto that.
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Post by Sundance on Sept 15, 2018 15:12:24 GMT -5
Sundance I've awakened the Quote Beast within you. Hahahahahahaha xD No going back now ;-P
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 16:58:30 GMT -5
Breezepelt doesn't even deserve a redemption. That book claimed he was isolated and lonely when really he wanted revenge on the Three. The book is biased, not to mention there's multiple inconsistencies. There's tons of show don't tell errors as well, like Nightcloud apparently being "well respected" when it never mentioned in the previous series. I know this is nothing new but this book takes the cake. It never mentioned that the other characters were at fault - it blamed solely on Crowfeather. I hated CT. Crowfeather was done well, but it felt very biased just to please the fans to me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 17:06:23 GMT -5
I also hated how Nightcloud blamed Crowfeather for his Clanmates not accepting his son. She doesn't realize that he can't controk his Clanmates' thoughts. It's not Crowfeather's fault thar Breezepelt chose the Dark Forest. I understand Nightcloud wanting to stay as a kittypet and feeling unappreciated, but she was downright unfair when she said that Crowfeather needed to set an example so his Clanmates would accept him. No. Screw off, Night. Crow doesn't control his Clanmates' thoughts and Breeze chose to kill. It's downright disgusting how she blamed him for not being accepted. No one's going to change my mind so don't bother debating with me.
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Post by dashingshadows on Sept 15, 2018 17:07:49 GMT -5
It wasn’t abuse He’s like Stormtail, he’s distant
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Post by briarfrost on Sept 15, 2018 17:09:15 GMT -5
It never mentioned that the other characters were at fault - it blamed solely on Crowfeather. Sure, it's not like Breezepelt admitted he was wrong to join the Dark Forest or any--oh wait.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 17:11:28 GMT -5
It never mentioned that the other characters were at fault - it blamed solely on Crowfeather. Sure, it's not like Breezepelt admitted he was wrong to join the Dark Forest or any--oh wait. It did. Nightcloud was solely blaming him for not being accepted after swearing the oath; Onestar called him out; Breezepelt in a way blamed him during the Great Battle. Really?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2018 17:13:06 GMT -5
Breezepelt and Nightcloud still blaned him. He may have apologized but Crowfeather was stilk guilt tripped and blamed for everything and he felt like absolute trash. Everyone tried to force him and Breeze together when Crow should have just done it on his own will.
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