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Post by Redstorm on Sept 13, 2018 16:49:14 GMT -5
In Yellowfang's Super Edition, Brokenstar was noted to be very strong and also heavily prided him and his clan on training battle skills. However he was defeated rather easily by Yellowfang in the Last Hope along with being very easily defeated in The Prophecies Begin.
As the leader of the Dark Forest and as somebody who prioritizes the might makes right and intense training mindset, it seems crazy how the Erins made him rather weaker in comparisons in battles to many of the stronger fighters in the series.
Some of his better feats would be easily holding his own against Firestar in the Last Hope and utterly destroying Beetlewhisker which shows that he isn't weak in certain moments. I think he's portrayed this way because the Erins consider him so evil (killing kits), that they think he deserves pathetic defeats and ends (they stated something like this to Brokenstar dying from death berries). That way this denies him from having a glorious death that some of the more (slightly) redeemable characters such as Tigerstar, Scourge, etc. had and only showing his strong feats when it doesn't really count as much (therefore denying him glorious victories).
What are your thoughts on why Brokenstar seems so weak in important battles?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2018 17:34:01 GMT -5
Well, in both cases when he was defeated by Yellowfang, he'd already been injured/weakened earlier in the fight, especially the Great Battle.
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Post by Fernstep on Sept 13, 2018 17:41:06 GMT -5
Don't forget that Jayfeather beat him with almost no difficulty in The Fourth Apprentice.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2018 17:47:36 GMT -5
Don't forget that Jayfeather beat him with almost no difficulty in The Fourth Apprentice. Jayfeather didn't defeat, not even close. Brokenstar and Breezepelt were toying with him, knocking him by and forth between each other. Jayfeather blind and no battle training. He was only beaten becuase a dozen Starclan appeared, completely outnumbering them.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 13, 2018 18:00:27 GMT -5
Brokenstar is a victim of jobbing sometimes to make other characters look good, but he is generally portrayed as being rather competent.
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Post by Fernstep on Sept 13, 2018 18:03:02 GMT -5
Don't forget that Jayfeather beat him with almost no difficulty in The Fourth Apprentice. Jayfeather didn't defeat, not even close. Brokenstar and Breezepelt were toying with him, knocking him by and forth between each other. Jayfeather blind and no battle training. He was only beaten becuase a dozen Starclan appeared, completely outnumbering them. What. Read the book again. Honeyfern shows up to help him, no one else. She beats Breezepelt, Jayfeather beats Brokenstar. Dude, please don't tell me I'm wrong when your recall of the book is that heavily skewed.
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firestar101
My body is made up of 50% root beer and 50% Lipton Green tea.
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Post by firestar101 on Sept 13, 2018 18:29:32 GMT -5
In Regards to Brokenstar vs. Yellowfang, Yellowfang says it herself in Into the Wild, something to the effect of that he's strong but he's not clever. Battles are more than just strength they are also about skill and also (as Firestar used effectively time and time again) deception and trickery. Yellowfang was a wily cat who knew her son better than even he realized. She could tie her son in knots with ease because of this and because she's just alot smarter than him.
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Post by Redstorm on Sept 13, 2018 18:45:10 GMT -5
In Regards to Brokenstar vs. Yellowfang, Yellowfang says it herself in Into the Wild, something to the effect of that he's strong but he's not clever. Battles are more than just strength they are also about skill and also (as Firestar used effectively time and time again) deception and trickery. Yellowfang was a wily cat who knew her son better than even he realized. She could tie her son in knots with ease because of this and because she's just alot smarter than him. Wow, I didn't even remember that, but good catch!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2018 19:36:55 GMT -5
I mean the dude was literally killing kits from his own clan. Noah fence but tactically he's mad dumb, he has zero foresight. He just fights with sheer numbers or the element of surprise to overpower his opponents. He's a brute. Sure, he has muscle to back him up, but he's just... not that bright imo.
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Post by Chocolate-Fawn on Sept 13, 2018 19:39:13 GMT -5
I'm so sorry I need to do this Brokenstar: MAGIKARP IS CHOSE YOU!!!!!!
Yellowfang: Arceus I chose you
Brokenstar: Oh shit
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 1:59:44 GMT -5
Jayfeather didn't defeat, not even close. Brokenstar and Breezepelt were toying with him, knocking him by and forth between each other. Jayfeather blind and no battle training. He was only beaten becuase a dozen Starclan appeared, completely outnumbering them. What. Read the book again. Honeyfern shows up to help him, no one else. She beats Breezepelt, Jayfeather beats Brokenstar. Dude, please don't tell me I'm wrong when your recall of the book is that heavily skewed. Or maybe you should check yourself before claiming my recall of the book "heavily screwed". Jayfeather was really struggling, he was no match for Breezepelt. And he definitely did not defeat Brokenstar. Jayfeather by no means defeated Brokenstar, while he was already beaten up to pulp, he managed to slash at his ears, but nothing else. Brokenstar chooses to back off himself willingly, Jayfeather couldn't of chased him away. This is at the Moonpool. And a signal Starclan has appeared, that means others could very easily appear. So Brokenstar, being smart, retreated. And he was right. Reinforcements of Starclans appeared, so many that it fills the entire hollow.
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Post by Fernstep on Sept 14, 2018 2:11:15 GMT -5
What. Read the book again. Honeyfern shows up to help him, no one else. She beats Breezepelt, Jayfeather beats Brokenstar. Dude, please don't tell me I'm wrong when your recall of the book is that heavily skewed. Or maybe you should check yourself before claiming my recall of the book "heavily screwed". Jayfeather was really struggling, he was no match for Breezepelt. And he definitely did not defeat. Jayfeather by no means defeated Brokenstar, while he was already beaten up to pulp, he managed to slash at his ears, but nothing else. Brokenstar chooses to back off himself willingly, Jayfeather couldn't of chased him away. This is at the Moonpool. And a signal Starclan has appeared, that means others could very easily appear. So Brokenstar, being smart, retreated. And he was right. Reinforcements of Starclans appeared, so many that it fills the entire hollow. What in the world are you talking about? One StarClan cat shows up during the fight. Literally one. Never is it implied that more were going to come in to help. You're making up stuff on the spot when the text suggests nothing of the sort. As you underlined, Jayfeather struggles to deal any damage at all before Honeyfern shows up. The very passage you quoted literally shows Jayfeather attacking Brokenstar, who then immediately retreats despite Honeyfern doing nothing to him. Two cats, each fighting a single opponent, managed to defeat Breezepelt and Brokenstar in the span of a paragraph. This isn't because of any implied reinforcements or anything like that, it's what actually happens right there in the book. "More StarClan cats could have reinforced them" is your theory. It's not in the actual book.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 2:18:52 GMT -5
Or maybe you should check yourself before claiming my recall of the book "heavily screwed". Jayfeather was really struggling, he was no match for Breezepelt. And he definitely did not defeat. Jayfeather by no means defeated Brokenstar, while he was already beaten up to pulp, he managed to slash at his ears, but nothing else. Brokenstar chooses to back off himself willingly, Jayfeather couldn't of chased him away. This is at the Moonpool. And a signal Starclan has appeared, that means others could very easily appear. So Brokenstar, being smart, retreated. And he was right. Reinforcements of Starclans appeared, so many that it fills the entire hollow. What in the world are you talking about? One StarClan cat shows up during the fight. Literally one. Never is it implied that more were going to come in to help. You're making up stuff on the spot when the text suggests nothing of the sort. As you underlined, Jayfeather struggles to deal any damage at all before Honeyfern shows up. The very passage you quoted literally shows Jayfeather attacking Brokenstar, who then immediately retreats despite Honeyfern doing nothing to him. Two cats, each fighting a single opponent, managed to defeat Breezepelt and Brokenstar in the span of a paragraph. This isn't because of any implied reinforcements or anything like that, it's what actually happens right there in the book. "More StarClan cats could have reinforced them" is your theory. It's not in the actual book. But this is basic logic. The books don't need to outright state everything. It techinally never revealed which Dark Forest spirit attacked Jayfeather. However, it's only implied in the next paragraph, when Yellowfang says she knows who it is but doesn't actually name them. However the Erin expect us to use basic knowledge/logic, to connect Yellowfang is the mother of the Dark Forest cat, Brokenstar, so it's probably him. It is at the Moonpool, the very centrer of Starclan connection to the living. If one Starclan can appear there, Brokenstar knew, that more could very easily could appear if he continued with the attack. So he willingly retreated before that could happen. Which he turned out to be right, more Starclan cats showed. All Jayfeather did was hit Brokenstar's ears a few times.
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Post by Fernstep on Sept 14, 2018 3:58:43 GMT -5
What in the world are you talking about? One StarClan cat shows up during the fight. Literally one. Never is it implied that more were going to come in to help. You're making up stuff on the spot when the text suggests nothing of the sort. As you underlined, Jayfeather struggles to deal any damage at all before Honeyfern shows up. The very passage you quoted literally shows Jayfeather attacking Brokenstar, who then immediately retreats despite Honeyfern doing nothing to him. Two cats, each fighting a single opponent, managed to defeat Breezepelt and Brokenstar in the span of a paragraph. This isn't because of any implied reinforcements or anything like that, it's what actually happens right there in the book. "More StarClan cats could have reinforced them" is your theory. It's not in the actual book. But this is basic logic. The books don't need to outright state everything. It techinally never revealed which Dark Forest spirit attacked Jayfeather. However, it's only implied in the next paragraph, when Yellowfang says she knows who it is but doesn't actually name them. However the Erin expect us to use basic knowledge/logic, to connect Yellowfang is the mother of the Dark Forest cat, Brokenstar, so it's probably him. It is at the Moonpool, the very centrer of Starclan connection to the living. If one Starclan can appear there, Brokenstar knew, that more could very easily could appear if he continued with the attack. So he willingly retreated before that could happen. Which he turned out to be right, more Starclan cats showed. All Jayfeather did was hit Brokenstar's ears a few times. Okay, first, this is OotS we're talking about. Subtlety is the last thing these on these books' priority list. It is revealed who attacked Jayfeather, because other scenes in the arc explicitly state it several times. Of course more StarClan cats could have appeared, but I never got the impression that, like, StarClan had more warriors just waiting to show up in case Honeyfern lost, or something. If they were going to send more warriors, they would've done it from the start. "Brokenstar willingly retreated out of fear of further reinforcements", again, is not stated anywhere in the book. You can interpret it that way if you like, but you can't claim that I'm wrong based on your own theories that are not confirmed. Regardless of what might have happened, what actually did happen is that Brokenstar fought Jayfeather, Jayfeather fought back (directly stated in the text), and Brokenstar retreated. Yes, it's very dumb. It's also literally what happens in the book.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 14, 2018 7:04:44 GMT -5
In Regards to Brokenstar vs. Yellowfang, Yellowfang says it herself in Into the Wild, something to the effect of that he's strong but he's not clever. Battles are more than just strength they are also about skill and also (as Firestar used effectively time and time again) deception and trickery. Yellowfang was a wily cat who knew her son better than even he realized. She could tie her son in knots with ease because of this and because she's just alot smarter than him. She wasn't talking about Brokenstar but Blackfoot. Blackfoot was the big, tough, but stupid one.
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firestar101
My body is made up of 50% root beer and 50% Lipton Green tea.
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Post by firestar101 on Sept 14, 2018 14:25:16 GMT -5
In Regards to Brokenstar vs. Yellowfang, Yellowfang says it herself in Into the Wild, something to the effect of that he's strong but he's not clever. Battles are more than just strength they are also about skill and also (as Firestar used effectively time and time again) deception and trickery. Yellowfang was a wily cat who knew her son better than even he realized. She could tie her son in knots with ease because of this and because she's just alot smarter than him. She wasn't talking about Brokenstar but Blackfoot. Blackfoot was the big, tough, but stupid one. Even so I'd say that the reasoning still applies.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 14:36:21 GMT -5
In Regards to Brokenstar vs. Yellowfang, Yellowfang says it herself in Into the Wild, something to the effect of that he's strong but he's not clever. Battles are more than just strength they are also about skill and also (as Firestar used effectively time and time again) deception and trickery. Yellowfang was a wily cat who knew her son better than even he realized. She could tie her son in knots with ease because of this and because she's just alot smarter than him. She wasn't talking about Brokenstar but Blackfoot. Blackfoot was the big, tough, but stupid one. Makes me wonder why Blackfoot was chosen as deputy twice if he was really like that. Make sense considering he was such a blind follower, including Brokenstar, Tigerstar and Sol.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 14, 2018 14:45:57 GMT -5
someone should go research all the notable fighters and rank them based on feats
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 14:52:51 GMT -5
someone should go research all the notable fighters and rank them based on feats As cliche as sounds, I'd probably give it to Firestar. He killed Scourge and Tigerstar, and Hawkfrost was only able to take one of his lives through trickery. On the other hand, he did have nine lives to keep fighting with, so if we're going off cats with one life to lose, Brambleclaw, maybe? He did train in the Dark Forest and killed Hawkfrost one-on-one, and Starclan even sent a sign that he'd be the best replacement as deputy, because he could protect that camp best, and he lived to succeed Firestar. I'd say Lionblaze but he was only that good with his powers, and I'm guessing we're counting each cat at their most basic state, with no unusual advantages like extra lives or powers. I haven't read OoTS in a while and never read AVoS so I'm clueless on cats that came from books post-Dovewing's Silence.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 14, 2018 14:55:07 GMT -5
She wasn't talking about Brokenstar but Blackfoot. Blackfoot was the big, tough, but stupid one. Makes me wonder why Blackfoot was chosen as deputy twice if he was really like that. Make sense considering he was such a blind follower, including Brokenstar, Tigerstar and Sol. Dictators love having useful idiots around them. Blackfoot was deputy to two dictators. He was never chosen by anyone competent or with good intentions, who might actually care about his intelligence, just by cats who needed a big brute to do their dirty work and scare other cats. For the needs of Tigerstar and Brokenstar, he's actually perfect. He's strong enough to scare other cats but not smart enough to get any funny ideas about not following orders or whatever. Hence, perfect deputy material. Someone's compiled feats for Scourge and Firestar https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/781juc/respect_scourge_warriors/ https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/7lx7pt/respect_firestar_warriors/ At least it's something.
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Post by Redstorm on Sept 14, 2018 15:50:21 GMT -5
Makes me wonder why Blackfoot was chosen as deputy twice if he was really like that. Make sense considering he was such a blind follower, including Brokenstar, Tigerstar and Sol. Dictators love having useful idiots around them. Blackfoot was deputy to two dictators. He was never chosen by anyone competent or with good intentions, who might actually care about his intelligence, just by cats who needed a big brute to do their dirty work and scare other cats. For the needs of Tigerstar and Brokenstar, he's actually perfect. He's strong enough to scare other cats but not smart enough to get any funny ideas about not following orders or whatever. Hence, perfect deputy material. Someone's compiled feats for Scourge and Firestar https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/781juc/respect_scourge_warriors/ https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/7lx7pt/respect_firestar_warriors/ At least it's something. vectoring34, What would you say are the differences between Tigerstar's and Brokenstar's personality, leadership, ambition level and strategies? I really liked your analysis you made of Brokenstar on my Dark Forest thread.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 14, 2018 17:11:57 GMT -5
Dictators love having useful idiots around them. Blackfoot was deputy to two dictators. He was never chosen by anyone competent or with good intentions, who might actually care about his intelligence, just by cats who needed a big brute to do their dirty work and scare other cats. For the needs of Tigerstar and Brokenstar, he's actually perfect. He's strong enough to scare other cats but not smart enough to get any funny ideas about not following orders or whatever. Hence, perfect deputy material. Someone's compiled feats for Scourge and Firestar https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/781juc/respect_scourge_warriors/ https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/7lx7pt/respect_firestar_warriors/ At least it's something. vectoring34 , What would you say are the differences between Tigerstar's and Brokenstar's personality, leadership, ambition level and strategies? I really liked your analysis you made of Brokenstar on my Dark Forest thread. Brokenstar is a cat much more likely to act upon his cruel intent, first off. The way he lured Raggedstar out and then murdered him was the act of a completely stone cold killer and planner. Tigerstar was a murderer too, but he lacked the gall to do the same. Perhaps this means that Brokenstar is more reckless and Tigerstar more cautious, or maybe Brokenstar is colder than Tigerstar who may actually have some compunctions with killing(minor ones, but still). I assume that when we get Redtail's novella, we might get some insight into this. That really is the biggest difference between them, imo. Tigerstar tends to sit on his hands more and take a "wait and see" approach, whereas Brokenstar boldly goes to the front always. You see this in the final battle too, where Tigerstar slips away and just waits the whole time whereas Brokenstar was on the front lines. While you could argue Tigerstar is smarter because of it, it also doesn't exactly endear cats to him as a leader if he's a coward who slinks off and waits around in the shadows vs someone who so boldly leads from the front like Brokenstar. In other words, Brokenstar has more charisma. He's the great speaker who can rile up a crowd and then be remembered fondly for it. Tigerstar is also a good speaker, but not quite as capable. In terms of leadership, under Brokenstar we see Shadowclan expand along with kicking out the elders and Windclan. Here we see Brokenstar's flaws compared to Tigerstar. Brokenstar relied on shock and awe in order to make his moves, and it worked because Crookedstar bent the knee to him and Thunderclan was too surprised to get together any resistance at first. This is a good strategy first, but Brokenstar also overextended himself, going too far and ending up being chased out. Tigerstar also expanded Shadowclan by taking in Riverclan(exploiting Leopardstar's pride), and unlike Brokenstar, he consolidated power before making outrageous demands. Tigerstar's flaws aren't in being too bold, but rather that he makes TOO MANY schemes and they're too complicated. The whole thing with the dogs was a plan that relied on absurd amounts of luck and bringing in Bloodclan as a contingency was a mistake(Windclan is a pushover and Shadowclan and Riverclan combined could have taken Thunderclan). Tigerstar overextends because he doesn't have enough confidence to go in quickly into things. Interestingly, their positions on atrocities are reversed. Brokenstar tries to keep his stuff covert and is good at talking his clanmates into believing whatever lie justifies his crimes. Tigerstar on the other hand just throws it all out there in the open and uses it for indoctrination. Brokenstar is more qualified on a cat to cat basis for deception but Tigerstar's propaganda is further reaching. I think Brokenstar's is more sustainable, whereas Tigerstar's is a flash in the pan but cannot last. As far as strategy goes, Brokenstar is generally more willing to listen to his allies and take their feelings into account. Tigerstar treats them more poorly, which is what ended up getting him killed. Tigerstar had some bad people skills, and that can make his strategies ineffective because it does not inspire much trust or help from his allies. Brokenstar on the other hand can better rely on his minions to do things because he's a better delegator. Of course when it comes to one on one battle, however, Tigerstar is far superior.
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Post by Redstorm on Sept 14, 2018 17:57:30 GMT -5
vectoring34 , What would you say are the differences between Tigerstar's and Brokenstar's personality, leadership, ambition level and strategies? I really liked your analysis you made of Brokenstar on my Dark Forest thread. Brokenstar is a cat much more likely to act upon his cruel intent, first off. The way he lured Raggedstar out and then murdered him was the act of a completely stone cold killer and planner. Tigerstar was a murderer too, but he lacked the gall to do the same. Perhaps this means that Brokenstar is more reckless and Tigerstar more cautious, or maybe Brokenstar is colder than Tigerstar who may actually have some compunctions with killing(minor ones, but still). I assume that when we get Redtail's novella, we might get some insight into this. That really is the biggest difference between them, imo. Tigerstar tends to sit on his hands more and take a "wait and see" approach, whereas Brokenstar boldly goes to the front always. You see this in the final battle too, where Tigerstar slips away and just waits the whole time whereas Brokenstar was on the front lines. While you could argue Tigerstar is smarter because of it, it also doesn't exactly endear cats to him as a leader if he's a coward who slinks off and waits around in the shadows vs someone who so boldly leads from the front like Brokenstar. In other words, Brokenstar has more charisma. He's the great speaker who can rile up a crowd and then be remembered fondly for it. Tigerstar is also a good speaker, but not quite as capable. In terms of leadership, under Brokenstar we see Shadowclan expand along with kicking out the elders and Windclan. Here we see Brokenstar's flaws compared to Tigerstar. Brokenstar relied on shock and awe in order to make his moves, and it worked because Crookedstar bent the knee to him and Thunderclan was too surprised to get together any resistance at first. This is a good strategy first, but Brokenstar also overextended himself, going too far and ending up being chased out. Tigerstar also expanded Shadowclan by taking in Riverclan(exploiting Leopardstar's pride), and unlike Brokenstar, he consolidated power before making outrageous demands. Tigerstar's flaws aren't in being too bold, but rather that he makes TOO MANY schemes and they're too complicated. The whole thing with the dogs was a plan that relied on absurd amounts of luck and bringing in Bloodclan as a contingency was a mistake(Windclan is a pushover and Shadowclan and Riverclan combined could have taken Thunderclan). Tigerstar overextends because he doesn't have enough confidence to go in quickly into things. Interestingly, their positions on atrocities are reversed. Brokenstar tries to keep his stuff covert and is good at talking his clanmates into believing whatever lie justifies his crimes. Tigerstar on the other hand just throws it all out there in the open and uses it for indoctrination. Brokenstar is more qualified on a cat to cat basis for deception but Tigerstar's propaganda is further reaching. I think Brokenstar's is more sustainable, whereas Tigerstar's is a flash in the pan but cannot last. As far as strategy goes, Brokenstar is generally more willing to listen to his allies and take their feelings into account. Tigerstar treats them more poorly, which is what ended up getting him killed. Tigerstar had some bad people skills, and that can make his strategies ineffective because it does not inspire much trust or help from his allies. Brokenstar on the other hand can better rely on his minions to do things because he's a better delegator. Of course when it comes to one on one battle, however, Tigerstar is far superior. This is probably one of the best and most nuanced posts I've seen! Kudos to you for thinking this through so well!
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