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Post by Redstorm on Aug 30, 2018 17:08:17 GMT -5
The leader of the Dark Forest originally seemed to be Tigerstar until The Forgotten Warrior when Brokenstar seemed to take over and a lot of quotes such as Ivypool asking cats if they really want to be lead by Brokenstar and Brokenstar angrily telling Hawkfrost and Tigerstar to train his warriors.
If you also think Brokenstar was the leader, why do you think Brokenstar seemed to be so dominant over even somebody Tigerstar and why do you think he was written to be this way? I can't figure Tigerstar allowing somebody to dominate over him, especially given his seemingly superior fighting skills. Age I don't think was the end all be all as both Thistleclaw and Mapleshade were older but Brokenstar seemed to dominate as well with Tigerstar/Hawkfrost seeming to outrank those 2.
I'm guessing Brokenstar became leader because to me he always struck me as more ruthless and intensely strict than all the other cats. Kinda more insistent on doing what it took for power. Tigerstar seemed more willing to wait it out for the long game, so he could kill Firestar. So I guess he accepted Brokenstar as the leader to beat the rest of the DF in shape as Brokenstar also seemed the most intense to me. Also I feel the Erins wanted Brokenstar to return with a big role and it could be fresh rather than a more expected "Tigerstar returns again and leads all the bad cats!".
I was curious to hear why you all think Brokenstar became the leader and why the writing was made for him to be leader.
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Post by Thunderheart57 on Aug 30, 2018 17:11:52 GMT -5
I agree with you on that last statement.
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Post by Hawkeyes258 on Aug 30, 2018 17:12:52 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I head OOTS but I thought Mapleshade was the leader.
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Post by mymerlincat on Aug 30, 2018 17:13:13 GMT -5
Tigerstar didn't hate the Clans, he only hated Firestar. Brokenstar was much more focused on raising hell against the Clans so he was able to do a better job of rallying cats.
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Post by Sundance on Aug 30, 2018 17:23:44 GMT -5
Glad you made this topic!
I was so frustrated by that in OOTS. Tigerstar was always meant to be our primary antagonist, the Big Bad, leading an army of evil to defeat Firestar and his allies. So why is Brokenstar suddenly leading the way, especially in The Last Hope? Ugh. Granted, I see Brokenstar as more evil, but definitely a character of lesser importance than Tigerstar.
When Brokenstar died and one of the cats cried that the Dark Forest had no leader now, I think my eyes rolled to the back of my head. :-P
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Post by kinkajou on Aug 30, 2018 17:30:30 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I head OOTS but I thought Mapleshade was the leader. same
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Post by streamflower on Aug 30, 2018 18:33:39 GMT -5
Probably because he was a child kidnapper and murderer. Tigerstar murdered, yeah, and so did Mapleshade, but at least they had a motive. Tigerstar to become leader of Thunderclan and Mapleshade for revenge...but Brokenstar? I mean yes he wanted to be leader of Shadowclan but he got that and THEN started murdering and kidnapping children. I guess I never really understood his motive; I mean sure, he could have wanted to become leader of the forest, but 1) he never outright stated that and 2) you can't rule generations if you kill every generation that is born, which Brokenstar didn't seem to mind doing.
At least that's how I've always viewed it.
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Post by vectoring34 on Aug 30, 2018 19:45:43 GMT -5
Just because Tigerstar could beat Brokenstar in a fight doesn't make him a better leader. Tigerstar is stronger than Brokenstar, but he lacks in the power of intimidation compared to Brokenstar. Brokenstar was scary enough that even blind his shrieking was affecting cats "Dustpelt had vanished and Brokentail was stumbling farther into the clearing, letting out a weird wailing that struck a chill into Fireheart’s heart. Even blind, the former ShadowClan leader possessed a terrifying power that seemed driven by something more than mortal." Furthermore, Tigerstar only took over Shadowclan after a plague and bout of hunger, not to mention failed horribly in killing Bluestar. Brokenstar on the other hand took over Shadowclan when it was in better condition and succeeded in murdering his father flawlessly. Also, notice how Tigerstar needed to rely on Brokenstar to rally up the rogues, which implies that his own words weren't enough to convince them. Brokenstar's a far superior leader to Tigerstar, so it makes sense that he helm the Dark Forest.
The fact that even Hawkfrost seems to hold a higher rank than Tigerstar makes sense for similar reasons. Hawkfrost was far more cunning than Tigerstar, able to plant Mothwing in an important position while Tigerstar had to rely on blind luck to become deputy.
You could also look at it from the angle that Tigerstar chose to step back willingly because he knew that inevitably the whole thing would go to pot and he didn't want to be anywhere near the leadership when the Dark Forest inevitably imploded.
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Post by Smokestep on Aug 30, 2018 19:53:50 GMT -5
I like the theory that Tigerstar knew the Dark Forest's plan was stupid, but went along with it anyway because it would give him a chance to kill Firestar. So like vectoring34 mentioned, albeit in a different context, Tigerstar wouldn't want to be leader when the plan ultimately failed.
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Post by Hawkeyes258 on Aug 30, 2018 20:06:50 GMT -5
Lol poor Tigerstar. He used to be a threat.
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Post by vectoring34 on Aug 30, 2018 20:15:57 GMT -5
Lol poor Tigerstar. He used to be a threat. When Brokenstar wants to kill his leader, it takes him one try and he flawlessly blames Windclan for it. When Tigerstar wants to kill his leader, he flubs around uselessly for two books attempting a convoluted Thunderpath scheme and trying to recruit Brokenstar and co. instead of just taking her on a walk and killing her then. Tigerstar was a threat because he stayed alive longer than Brokenstar did, not for actual competence
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Post by Smokestep on Aug 30, 2018 20:28:18 GMT -5
When Brokenstar wants to kill his leader, it takes him one try and he flawlessly blames Windclan for it. When Tigerstar wants to kill his leader, he flubs around uselessly for two books attempting a convoluted Thunderpath scheme and trying to recruit Brokenstar and co. instead of just taking her on a walk and killing her then. Tigerstar was a threat because he stayed alive longer than Brokenstar did, not for actual competence Brokenstar also flawlessly blamed WindClan for stealing prey that he killed, provoking the battle that caused him to be named deputy in the first place.
Not to mention that Brokenstar became deputy at a younger age than Tigerstar all due to his own iniative, and still managed to commit everything he did despite the age disadvantage. He's a lot more competent than he seems at first glance.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 30, 2018 22:09:53 GMT -5
From what I remembered Mapleshade and Brokenstar were the higher-ups, because even Tigerstar feared Mapleshade apparently. However, she wasn't sane, compared to Brokenstar who was more strategic.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 22:46:17 GMT -5
At least to me he always seemed a one-man-show. While the other dark forest cats were vaguely united in destroying the clans as a whole Tigerstar- and Mapleshade- were the only dark forest cats to have single specific targets. And sure enough, Tigerstar avoids most of the battle in the end and just shows up to attack Firestar, and Mapleshade targeting Sandstorm. So in a way I think it kinda makes sense cause Tigerstar probably just considered the dark forest as a distraction to get to Firestar- if he lead them he couldn’t get to his goal.
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Post by vectoring34 on Aug 31, 2018 7:06:37 GMT -5
From what I remembered Mapleshade and Brokenstar were the higher-ups, because even Tigerstar feared Mapleshade apparently. However, she wasn't sane, compared to Brokenstar who was more strategic. Mapleshade was never a higher up in any sense beyond offering advice every now and then. She scared Tigerstar, but that's just because she's completely deranged and wild. The only ones mentioned to be leaders in the final battle were Brokenstar and Hawkfrost, and indeed those seem to be the ones giving the bulk of the orders. Mapleshade was probably scary to some of them, but Mapleshade also lacks in leadership skills whatsoever and is more akin to a deranged bum with a knife rather than evil leader material.
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Post by firestar101 on Aug 31, 2018 12:36:24 GMT -5
Brokenstar was in charge likely for two main reasons. He's has a charismatic and commanding personality, one to rival Tigerstar himself, and he just established himself in the DF years before Tigerstar. Tigerstar didn't really need to establish the resurgence of the DF as Brokenstar was already well on the way to doing that. If the DF wasn't already organizing then it is very likely that Tigerstar would have started the process and taken a huge role in it. But as it stood Brokenstar was already in control and I bet Tigerstar trusted in Brokenstar's ability to make war on the Clans. Leaving Tigerstar to devote all his time to his own plans and revenge fantasies. Even if he had tried to take control it would have only led to a lack of unity in the DF, something both he and Brokenstar likely wanted to avoid.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 1, 2018 6:46:00 GMT -5
From what I remembered Mapleshade and Brokenstar were the higher-ups, because even Tigerstar feared Mapleshade apparently. However, she wasn't sane, compared to Brokenstar who was more strategic. Mapleshade was never a higher up in any sense beyond offering advice every now and then. She scared Tigerstar, but that's just because she's completely deranged and wild. The only ones mentioned to be leaders in the final battle were Brokenstar and Hawkfrost, and indeed those seem to be the ones giving the bulk of the orders. Mapleshade was probably scary to some of them, but Mapleshade also lacks in leadership skills whatsoever and is more akin to a deranged bum with a knife rather than evil leader material. No offense, but that makes no sense, considering she's one of the first cats to actually start training living warriors, as seen in Crookedstar's promise, even before Brokenstar entered the Dark Forest. She's been doing it for ages, and was most likely the first leader, before over time, her thinking decayed, and then yeah, she became even more mentally unstable. In CP she's much more manipulative, in OotS, she's more see-through, ready to fade away, and her behavior is much more erratic and unpredictable. There is a good time gap between CP and OotS, and even before that, a bigger gap between MV and CP, so it's easy to understand that plenty of time slowly changed her mindset. Especially when she wasn't even that stable in her last moments of living anyways, it just progressively got worse. It also makes no sense to say that Mapleshade wasn't a high up, but Hawkfrost was over Tigerstar? Hawkfrost entered the forest after Tigerstar, Tigerstar himself trained him and tried to train his son as well. To me, at least Tigerstar, Hawkftost, Mapleshade, and Brokenstar were all leaders, but the more respected cats were Brokensar and Mapleshade. But Brokenstar's word was more absolute. There are also scenes where we see the DF leaders in meetings, Mapleshade also tells Ivypool as long as she's alive she couldn't attend those said meetings. I'm pretty sure the books made it obvious how the hierarchy was, considering the higher up cats usually have been there longer, were already training and luring other trainees and knew about the true plans of all of this from the start.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 1, 2018 6:50:59 GMT -5
At least to me he always seemed a one-man-show. While the other dark forest cats were vaguely united in destroying the clans as a whole Tigerstar- and Mapleshade- were the only dark forest cats to have single specific targets. And sure enough, Tigerstar avoids most of the battle in the end and just shows up to attack Firestar, and Mapleshade targeting Sandstorm. So in a way I think it kinda makes sense cause Tigerstar probably just considered the dark forest as a distraction to get to Firestar- if he lead them he couldn’t get to his goal. But Mapleshade was training cats before Sandstorm was even born, she was also making battle plans to kill kits in the battle, just so it would weaken queens and other cats morale. She did specifically target Sandstorm, but that seemed like a second matter of fact, choice, while Tigerstar, who went after Firestar, was a long coming "good vs evil" type of trope since the very first series. Where Tigerstar hated Firestar, even though Scourge killed him, and then he tried to train his own sons to murder him as well.
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 1, 2018 9:24:10 GMT -5
Mapleshade was never a higher up in any sense beyond offering advice every now and then. She scared Tigerstar, but that's just because she's completely deranged and wild. The only ones mentioned to be leaders in the final battle were Brokenstar and Hawkfrost, and indeed those seem to be the ones giving the bulk of the orders. Mapleshade was probably scary to some of them, but Mapleshade also lacks in leadership skills whatsoever and is more akin to a deranged bum with a knife rather than evil leader material. No offense, but that makes no sense, considering she's one of the first cats to actually start training living warriors, as seen in Crookedstar's promise, even before Brokenstar entered the Dark Forest. She's been doing it for ages, and was most likely the first leader, before over time, her thinking decayed, and then yeah, she became even more mentally unstable. In CP she's much more manipulative, in OotS, she's more see-through, ready to fade away, and her behavior is much more erratic and unpredictable. There is a good time gap between CP and OotS, and even before that, a bigger gap between MV and CP, so it's easy to understand that plenty of time slowly changed her mindset. Especially when she wasn't even that stable in her last moments of living anyways, it just progressively got worse. It also makes no sense to say that Mapleshade wasn't a high up, but Hawkfrost was over Tigerstar? Hawkfrost entered the forest after Tigerstar, Tigerstar himself trained him and tried to train his son as well. To me, at least Tigerstar, Hawkftost, Mapleshade, and Brokenstar were all leaders, but the more respected cats were Brokensar and Mapleshade. But Brokenstar's word was more absolute. There are also scenes where we see the DF leaders in meetings, Mapleshade also tells Ivypool as long as she's alive she couldn't attend those said meetings. I'm pretty sure the books made it obvious how the hierarchy was, considering the higher up cats usually have been there longer, were already training and luring other trainees and knew about the true plans of all of this from the start. Just because Mapleshade came up with the idea first doesn't make her in charge. It might have made her in charge at some point or another, but thereafter there's no sign of that. The moment a more competent leader stepped in and one who was interested in exploiting said role, Mapleshade's role was lowered to just senior warrior once other big shots got in there. Her role was so diminished that Brokenstar can just casually wave her away like some underling. As far as Hawkfrost's own power, he's very clearly in charge of his dad at least sometimes given Tigerstar is the one in HIS patrol. "Thistleclaw lifted his gaze to the far side of camp where Hawkfrost sat, silhouetted against the clouds. His patrol weaved impatiently beside him. Tigerstar’s tabby pelt shone among them. " Just because Tigerstar was around longer and brought him into the fold doesn't mean that Hawkfrost doesn't eventually surpass him. If anything, it makes sense given his greater intellect. The Dark Forest is a meritocracy through and through, your age is irrelevant so long as you're ruthless and good at leading. The totem pole therefore seems to be Brokenstar>Hawkfrost>=Tigerstar>Mapleshade
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 1, 2018 11:27:37 GMT -5
No offense, but that makes no sense, considering she's one of the first cats to actually start training living warriors, as seen in Crookedstar's promise, even before Brokenstar entered the Dark Forest. She's been doing it for ages, and was most likely the first leader, before over time, her thinking decayed, and then yeah, she became even more mentally unstable. In CP she's much more manipulative, in OotS, she's more see-through, ready to fade away, and her behavior is much more erratic and unpredictable. There is a good time gap between CP and OotS, and even before that, a bigger gap between MV and CP, so it's easy to understand that plenty of time slowly changed her mindset. Especially when she wasn't even that stable in her last moments of living anyways, it just progressively got worse. It also makes no sense to say that Mapleshade wasn't a high up, but Hawkfrost was over Tigerstar? Hawkfrost entered the forest after Tigerstar, Tigerstar himself trained him and tried to train his son as well. To me, at least Tigerstar, Hawkftost, Mapleshade, and Brokenstar were all leaders, but the more respected cats were Brokensar and Mapleshade. But Brokenstar's word was more absolute. There are also scenes where we see the DF leaders in meetings, Mapleshade also tells Ivypool as long as she's alive she couldn't attend those said meetings. I'm pretty sure the books made it obvious how the hierarchy was, considering the higher up cats usually have been there longer, were already training and luring other trainees and knew about the true plans of all of this from the start. Just because Mapleshade came up with the idea first doesn't make her in charge. It might have made her in charge at some point or another, but thereafter there's no sign of that. The moment a more competent leader stepped in and one who was interested in exploiting said role, Mapleshade's role was lowered to just senior warrior once other big shots got in there. Her role was so diminished that Brokenstar can just casually wave her away like some underling. As far as Hawkfrost's own power, he's very clearly in charge of his dad at least sometimes given Tigerstar is the one in HIS patrol. "Thistleclaw lifted his gaze to the far side of camp where Hawkfrost sat, silhouetted against the clouds. His patrol weaved impatiently beside him. Tigerstar’s tabby pelt shone among them. " Just because Tigerstar was around longer and brought him into the fold doesn't mean that Hawkfrost doesn't eventually surpass him. If anything, it makes sense given his greater intellect. The Dark Forest is a meritocracy through and through, your age is irrelevant so long as you're ruthless and good at leading. The totem pole therefore seems to be Brokenstar>Hawkfrost>=Tigerstar>Mapleshade That's what I've been trying to say. That overtime Mapleshade was probably in charge at one point or another, but eventually, Brokenstar took over for the most part. Not that Mapleshade wasn't a higher up at any time period, which was the initial point.... She started the Dark Forest training, lured cats in, was even behind helping Tigerstar, and a bunch of other plot points, and was around during OotS. But by that time, she was just some vengeful fading spirit with a messed up craze vendetta, who didn't have the credentials to lead the operation. Hence Brokenstar taking advantage of that. Imo, Hawkfrost didn't seem like he didn much outside of recruitment and training, and we only see him play a major role cause we had a POV associated with him, Ivypool, and because he killed another MC, Hollyleaf. But that's my personal opinion.
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Post by Hawkeyes258 on Sept 1, 2018 21:05:15 GMT -5
Let's keep our heads folks. Remember these cats are dead and fictional.
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Post by Redwing on Sept 3, 2018 14:21:20 GMT -5
My theory: Dark Forest is a democracy. Also, Brokenstar did reclaim his Starclan leader title, so theres that. Also, Brokenstar is the doer, Tigerstar is the waiter, Mapleshade is the yeller. Perfect combo for a dead cat democracy.
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Post by aaaah on Feb 29, 2020 21:37:35 GMT -5
Lol poor Tigerstar. He used to be a threat. When Brokenstar wants to kill his leader, it takes him one try and he flawlessly blames Windclan for it. When Tigerstar wants to kill his leader, he flubs around uselessly for two books attempting a convoluted Thunderpath scheme and trying to recruit Brokenstar and co. instead of just taking her on a walk and killing her then. Tigerstar was a threat because he stayed alive longer than Brokenstar did, not for actual competence Well see Brokenstar is the most intelligent villain, he waits for the best opportunity, does things in a place and way to have deniability, and he doesn't go around killing infront of jumpy loudmouth apprentices.
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