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Official Queen of Fan Clans
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ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 29, 2018 10:45:22 GMT -5
Excluding obvious choices like Tigerstar I and Brokenstar, what are some of the worst high ranking members of the Clans? I want to exclude cats that have obviously done wrong because we know they're the worst, but some characters make me sit and wonder how they got that position in the first place. Others seem to lack the proper capability to complete their duties.
A few obvious choices to me would be Heatherstar of WindClan, Hailstar of RiverClan, Cedarstar of ShadowClan, Oakstar and Pinestar of ThunderClan. In addition to these, Sagewhisker, medicine cat of ShadowClan, Leafpool, medicine cat of ThunderClan. These characters stand out to me due to poor decision making, save for Leafpool because there's more to her that makes me seriously concerned for Jayfeather, Alderheart, and Puddleshine.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 11:00:31 GMT -5
Onestar, Leopardstar, and Blackstar were all terrible leaders. Onestar for his hawkish attitude and Leopardstar for selling out her Clan to Tigerstar, a murderous dictator. In fact, she sat and did nothing when Stonefur, her own deputy, was killed. Meanwhile Blackstar was a doormat to Tigerstar and Sol.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 11:13:23 GMT -5
Onestar, Leopardstar, and Blackstar were all terrible leaders. Onestar for his hawkish attitude and Leopardstar for selling out her Clan to Tigerstar, a murderous dictator. In fact, she sat and did nothing when Stonefur, her own deputy, was killed. Meanwhile Blackstar was a doormat to Tigerstar and Sol. Let's not forget she isolated and starved halfclan cats and first ordered Stonefur to kill two apprentices before having him killed, and never faced real consequences for it. God, I hate Leopardstar with a burning passion.
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Post by Lightflame on Jul 29, 2018 11:49:53 GMT -5
Morningstar admitted his Clan's weakness at a Gathering, and ordered his warriors not to challenge WindClan cats hunting on their territory.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 11:59:40 GMT -5
Wait what makes Heatherstar, Cedarstar and Hailstar bad leaders, again? I'll admit I barely remember them desides from Heatherstar, who as far as I remember didn't really do much to display whether she was a bad or good leader.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 12:08:44 GMT -5
@mellowix not sure about Cedarstar and not sure what OP's opinions are on Hailstar and Heatherstar (as far as what makes them bad leaders) but personally Hailstar let Rainflower emotionally abuse her own son and contributed to it by renaming him Crookedkit on request, and Heatherstar changed Hopkit's name to Deadpaw which is just nasty, plus she seemed very... passive, I suppose? She didn't really take charge of her clan like a leader should, I feel. Again, idk why OP dislikes them but I can see why people would dislike them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 12:23:03 GMT -5
@mellowix not sure about Cedarstar and not sure what OP's opinions are on Hailstar and Heatherstar (as far as what makes them bad leaders) but personally Hailstar let Rainflower emotionally abuse her own son and contributed to it by renaming him Crookedkit on request, and Heatherstar changed Hopkit's name to Deadpaw which is just nasty, plus she seemed very... passive, I suppose? She didn't really take charge of her clan like a leader should, I feel. Again, idk why OP dislikes them but I can see why people would dislike them. The whole tradition of naming cats after their injuries is iffy. In the first arc, it was seen as an honor for the elders like Halftail and One-eye because it proved how much they sacrificed for their clans. However in the same arc and beyond, it was seen as cruel. The only major difference I see, is just the cat themselves should request it and they are old enough to fully understand it as well. So I agree Hailstar shouldn't of pulled through with Rainflower's request, however with Heatherstar and Deadpaw, he seemed to embarrass it, proud of it even. So like said before, it's all rather confusing on whether it considered a good or bad thing in Clan Society.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 12:28:14 GMT -5
Bluestar for refusing to give Swiftpaw, Brightpaw, and Thornpaw their Warrior names long after they earned them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 12:29:16 GMT -5
@mellowix not sure about Cedarstar and not sure what OP's opinions are on Hailstar and Heatherstar (as far as what makes them bad leaders) but personally Hailstar let Rainflower emotionally abuse her own son and contributed to it by renaming him Crookedkit on request, and Heatherstar changed Hopkit's name to Deadpaw which is just nasty, plus she seemed very... passive, I suppose? She didn't really take charge of her clan like a leader should, I feel. Again, idk why OP dislikes them but I can see why people would dislike them. The whole tradition of naming cats after their injuries is iffy. In the first arc, it was seen as an honor for the elders like Halftail and One-eye because it proved how much they sacrificed for their clans. However in the same arc and beyond, it was seen as cruel. The only major difference I see, is just the cat themselves should request it and they are old enough to fully understand it as well. So I agree Hailstar shouldn't of pulled through with Rainflower's request, however with Heatherstar and Deadpaw, he seemed to embarrass it, proud of it even. So like said before, it's all rather confusing on whether it considered a good or bad thing in Clan Society. Yeeeeah at first it seemed like an honorable thing, but it quickly opened the doors to a degree of ableism, where disabled characters were forcibly named after their disabilities. Some of them were even traumatized by this, with one of the field guides saying Brightheart, to this day, hears the name "Lostface" echo in her head when she's alone. I'm fine with it if a cat is old enough to understand and consent to it and it's treated more as a badge of honor, but they seem to swing back and forth between having it be honorable and downright shameful. I haven't read Tallstar's Revenge in a while, but if I recall, Tallstar (Talltail at the time) had to actually fight to get Hopkit made into an apprentice. Either way, like I said, I don't have much gripe with Heatherstar. I'm mostly neutral leaning on dislike because she just feels too passive to be a clan leader. When I think "clan leader", I think of characters like Leafstar (as controversial as she is...) and Blackstar, characters who take charge of their clans and do their best to help them grow and develop.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 12:31:45 GMT -5
Bluestar for refusing to give Swiftpaw, Brightpaw, and Thornpaw their Warrior names long after they earned them. Let us not forget that because of this, Swiftpaw and Brightpaw tried to prove their worth and Swiftpaw ended up dead and Brightpaw was scarred and disabled, and then Bluestar changed her name to reflect her disability, effectively traumatizing her. One of the field guides states the name haunts her to this day. Besides that, Bluestar spent like two books moping around while Fireheart basically took care of the clan by himself. Bluestar in general is a character I really dislike for everything she got away with. She really should not have been a leader.
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Post by kinkajou on Jul 29, 2018 12:51:56 GMT -5
Graystripe (when he was deputy, I'm so glad he lost that rank)
Tigerheartstar (became leader while having a forbidden romance. at least graystripe's had ended by the time he became deputy)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 13:04:43 GMT -5
Bluestar for refusing to give Swiftpaw, Brightpaw, and Thornpaw their Warrior names long after they earned them. Let us not forget that because of this, Swiftpaw and Brightpaw tried to prove their worth and Swiftpaw ended up dead and Brightpaw was scarred and disabled, and then Bluestar changed her name to reflect her disability, effectively traumatizing her. One of the field guides states the name haunts her to this day. Besides that, Bluestar spent like two books moping around while Fireheart basically took care of the clan by himself. Bluestar in general is a character I really dislike for everything she got away with. She really should not have been a leader. You know what I also dislike about her? She sold off her kits to RiverClan just so she could become Clan leader, and every time one of her family members died, she just stayed in camp and did nothing but feel sorry for herself. She couldn’t even get along with her own sister’s mate, and treated both Thrushpelt and Oakheart horribly just for liking her.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 13:12:08 GMT -5
Firestar ended up making the warriors share the deputy role even though almost all of them knew Brambleclaw was the obvious choice.I know that Graystripe lived but I mean seriously,just appoint a new deputy.Leopardstar made Hawkfrost deputy when Mistyfoot went missing.
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Post by kinkajou on Jul 29, 2018 13:45:38 GMT -5
Let us not forget that because of this, Swiftpaw and Brightpaw tried to prove their worth and Swiftpaw ended up dead and Brightpaw was scarred and disabled, and then Bluestar changed her name to reflect her disability, effectively traumatizing her. One of the field guides states the name haunts her to this day. Besides that, Bluestar spent like two books moping around while Fireheart basically took care of the clan by himself. Bluestar in general is a character I really dislike for everything she got away with. She really should not have been a leader. You know what I also dislike about her? She sold off her kits to RiverClan just so she could become Clan leader, and every time one of her family members died, she just stayed in camp and did nothing but feel sorry for herself. She couldn’t even get along with her own sister’s mate, and treated both Thrushpelt and Oakheart horribly just for liking her. When did she treat Thrush horribly?
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 29, 2018 14:28:15 GMT -5
Onestar was an aggressive jerk who was too concerned with his self esteem to be an effective leader.
Leopardstar and Blackstar share the position of being sniveling cowards who roll over and show their bellies for a dime to the worst of cats. Special mention to Leopardstar approving of later attacks on clans for no good reason as well as Blackstar.
Cedarstar was bad for promoting Raggedpelt even after his plan failed and being the first in Shadowclan to inspire the lineage of nepotism that rotted the clan into the festering carcass it is today. Speaking of that, Raggedstar also spoiled and overpromoted his deputy.
Mudclaw's response to being passed up as leader was far from appropriate and allying with Hawkfrost in a **** for tat maneuver shows that he didn't care what he had to do for power.
Bluestar in her years as the mad king was pretty bad, shortlived as they were.
Crookedstar yielding to Brokenstar without a fight is pretty disgraceful and then actively profiting from Windclan's suffering. It's not like he's like Nightstar, where he has the excuse of the clan needing to recover since his own was never touched.
Russetfur watched a kit suffer and slowly bleed to death without a speck of empathy and later on murdered Firestar in a border dispute.
Leafpool made a host of poor choices and one wonders if she even wanted to be a medicine cat in the first place.
Ravenwing and Oakstar exposing and treating Mapleshade so cruelly is really messed up.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 16:05:38 GMT -5
Ravenwing and Oakstar exposing and treating Mapleshade so cruelly is really messed up. I'd say only Mapleshade's kits, but not Mapleshade herself. There really needs to be a separation between them I feel. An injustice against Patchkit, Larchkit and Petalkit, isn't atomically against Mapleshade. She was fully grown warrior, well respected, who was even expected to become deputy one day. Yet she still betrayed/lied to her clan by being mates with the Riverclan who 'killed' two of her clanmates, she should of known the consequences better than most cats. Only made worse when she knew innocent kits could be dragged into it if it ended in a pregnancy, which it did. Yes, I know it can argued exile was still too harsh however she still should of expected some punishment.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 16:10:20 GMT -5
Ravenwing and Oakstar exposing and treating Mapleshade so cruelly is really messed up. I'd say only Mapleshade's kits, but not Mapleshade herself. There really needs to be a separation between them I feel. An injustice against Patchkit, Larchkit and Petalkit, isn't atomically against Mapleshade. She was fully grown warrior, well respected, who was even expected to become deputy one day. Yet she still betrayed/lied to her clan by being mates with the Riverclan who 'killed' two of her clanmates, she should of known the consequences better than most cats. Only made worse when she knew innocent kits could be dragged into it if it ended in a pregnancy, which it did. Yes, I know it can argued exile was still too harsh however she still should of expected some punishment. Yeah, Oakstar and the rest of Thunderclan should absolutely catch flack for exiling kits, but Mapleshade herself should have known better. Mapleshade should have been exiled, and they should have had another queen raise her kits.
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Post by hopestorm on Jul 29, 2018 16:25:52 GMT -5
People keep hating Blue star. The only reason she was mad is because of tigerstar(claw at the time) betrayal and she was kinda regretting leaving her kits and she through this was a punishment for certain things
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 16:38:31 GMT -5
People keep hating Blue star. The only reason she was mad is because of tigerstar(claw at the time) betrayal and she was kinda regretting leaving her kits and she through this was a punishment for certain things That's no excuse for causing the death of Swiftpaw and then permanently traumatizing Brightheart. She never owned up despite taking her anger out on young cats. If she can't handle that kind of pressure, she shouldn't have become a leader.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 29, 2018 16:38:47 GMT -5
Ravenwing and Oakstar exposing and treating Mapleshade so cruelly is really messed up. I'd say only Mapleshade's kits, but not Mapleshade herself. There really needs to be a separation between them I feel. An injustice against Patchkit, Larchkit and Petalkit, isn't atomically against Mapleshade. She was fully grown warrior, well respected, who was even expected to become deputy one day. Yet she still betrayed/lied to her clan by being mates with the Riverclan who 'killed' two of her clanmates, she should of known the consequences better than most cats. Only made worse when she knew innocent kits could be dragged into it if it ended in a pregnancy, which it did. Yes, I know it can argued exile was still too harsh however she still should of expected some punishment. Yeah exiling Mapleshade alone would've probably been better, rather than include the kits in the equation. They're helpless, innocent and aren't supposed to be roaming around outside the usual safety of the camp anyways. A more sensible option would've probably been to exile Mapleshade by herself, and either give the kits to a foster mother, or given them to Riverclan if they really don't belong in Thunderclan. Then Oakstar wouldn't have been so terrible by throwing out KITS who shouldn't ever be punished for their parents crimes, while she still gets punished for being stupid and won't be allowed to see them.
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Post by hopestorm on Jul 29, 2018 16:42:58 GMT -5
People keep hating Blue star. The only reason she was mad is because of tigerstar(claw at the time) betrayal and she was kinda regretting leaving her kits and she through this was a punishment for certain things That's no excuse for causing the death of Swiftpaw and then permanently traumatizing Brightheart. She never owned up despite taking her anger out on young cats. If she can't handle that kind of pressure, she shouldn't have become a leader. Well she lost her kit, her mate, her sister, her deputies , her mother. Well she was also angry that she didn't believe Firestar(heart) about tigerstar,. I would probably get mad if I lose all those people. I just saying it normal to get a bit rude and mad when people betray or you lose your family, well after she died she helped her clan through firestat's leadership.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 16:45:10 GMT -5
That's no excuse for causing the death of Swiftpaw and then permanently traumatizing Brightheart. She never owned up despite taking her anger out on young cats. If she can't handle that kind of pressure, she shouldn't have become a leader. Well she lost her kit, her mate, her sister, her deputies , her mother. Well she was also angry that she didn't believe Firestar(heart) about tigerstar,. I would probably get mad if I lose all those people. I just saying it normal to get a bit rude and mad when people betray or you lose your family, well after she died she helped her clan through firestat's leadership. Reason=/=justification. She had a motivation, yes, but it does not excuse her actions. She did many cruel things, and even if she was dealing with both dementia and grief, it doesn't justify how she essentially neglected her clan and mistreated cats so much younger than her who essentially had no control over what was happening.
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Post by hopestorm on Jul 29, 2018 16:45:35 GMT -5
I'd say only Mapleshade's kits, but not Mapleshade herself. There really needs to be a separation between them I feel. An injustice against Patchkit, Larchkit and Petalkit, isn't atomically against Mapleshade. She was fully grown warrior, well respected, who was even expected to become deputy one day. Yet she still betrayed/lied to her clan by being mates with the Riverclan who 'killed' two of her clanmates, she should of known the consequences better than most cats. Only made worse when she knew innocent kits could be dragged into it if it ended in a pregnancy, which it did. Yes, I know it can argued exile was still too harsh however she still should of expected some punishment. Yeah exiling Mapleshade alone would've probably been better, rather than include the kits in the equation. They're helpless, innocent and aren't supposed to be roaming around outside the usual safety of the camp anyways. A more sensible option would've probably been to exile Mapleshade by herself, and either give the kits to a foster mother, or given them to Riverclan if they really don't belong in Thunderclan. Then Oakstar wouldn't have been so terrible by throwing out KITS who shouldn't ever be punished for their parents crimes, while she still gets punished for being stupid and won't be allowed to see them. Oakstar broke the warrior code, it states don't neglect or harm a kit that is in danger. He kicks them out (that is pretty much neglecting them)
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Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Jul 29, 2018 16:45:35 GMT -5
People keep hating Blue star. The only reason she was mad is because of tigerstar(claw at the time) betrayal and she was kinda regretting leaving her kits and she through this was a punishment for certain things That's no excuse for causing the death of Swiftpaw and then permanently traumatizing Brightheart. She never owned up despite taking her anger out on young cats. If she can't handle that kind of pressure, she shouldn't have become a leader. Did Swiftpaw and Brightheart go fight the dogs because of Bluestar denying them their warrior ceremony? Yes. Did Bluestar cause them to go do so? No. They made that choice themselves--and the other apprentices even know something about it and they chose not to follow them. Bluestar's actions may have influenced Swiftpaw and Brightheart but she didn't make them or cause them to do anything. And how was she supposed to 'own up to it'? She died at the end of the book. She had a mental issue beyond her control and was only able to see clearly right before her death. Bluestar went through a lot in her life and I think people really minimize those issues. Before Tigerclaw's betrayal, she was a fairly good leader. You can't treat someone's actions under something like dementia and mental illness as the same as someone who doesn't deal with those issues. Because they're not the same. They may still hurt the same and cause problems the same. But they are not the same.
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Post by hopestorm on Jul 29, 2018 16:48:59 GMT -5
That's no excuse for causing the death of Swiftpaw and then permanently traumatizing Brightheart. She never owned up despite taking her anger out on young cats. If she can't handle that kind of pressure, she shouldn't have become a leader. Did Swiftpaw and Brightheart go fight the dogs because of Bluestar denying them their warrior ceremony? Yes. Did Bluestar cause them to go do so? No. They made that choice themselves--and the other apprentices even know something about it and they chose not to follow them. Bluestar's actions may have influenced Swiftpaw and Brightheart but she didn't make them or cause them to do anything. And how was she supposed to 'own up to it'? She died at the end of the book. She had a mental issue beyond her control and was only able to see clearly right before her death. Bluestar went through a lot in her life and I think people really minimize those issues. Before Tigerclaw's betrayal, she was a fairly good leader. You can't treat someone's actions under something like dementia and mental illness as the same as someone who doesn't deal with those issues. Because they're not the same. They may still hurt the same and cause problems the same. But they are not the same. she kind of own up to it by sacrificing herself for her clan, that what a good leader does, and she realise starclan didn't betray her (it states in a book that when she saw the Strong helping the weak she knew starclan was still with them) it not like she kill her cats because of her problems
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Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Jul 29, 2018 16:50:49 GMT -5
Did Swiftpaw and Brightheart go fight the dogs because of Bluestar denying them their warrior ceremony? Yes. Did Bluestar cause them to go do so? No. They made that choice themselves--and the other apprentices even know something about it and they chose not to follow them. Bluestar's actions may have influenced Swiftpaw and Brightheart but she didn't make them or cause them to do anything. And how was she supposed to 'own up to it'? She died at the end of the book. She had a mental issue beyond her control and was only able to see clearly right before her death. Bluestar went through a lot in her life and I think people really minimize those issues. Before Tigerclaw's betrayal, she was a fairly good leader. You can't treat someone's actions under something like dementia and mental illness as the same as someone who doesn't deal with those issues. Because they're not the same. They may still hurt the same and cause problems the same. But they are not the same. she kind of own up to it by sacrificing herself for her clan, that what a good leader does, and she realise starclan didn't betray her (it states in a book that when she saw the Strong helping the weak she knew starclan was still with them) it not like she kill her cats because of her problems In general she was just a flawed leader. It seems like so many people expect the leaders to be perfect. Like is there a leader on this thread from the series that isn't mentioned??
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Post by hopestorm on Jul 29, 2018 16:53:20 GMT -5
she kind of own up to it by sacrificing herself for her clan, that what a good leader does, and she realise starclan didn't betray her (it states in a book that when she saw the Strong helping the weak she knew starclan was still with them) it not like she kill her cats because of her problems In general she was just a flawed leader. It seems like so many people expect the leaders to be perfect. Like is there a leader on this thread from the series that isn't mentioned?? I agree, people are always angry at Mary sue (and gray sue, whatever it is) but when they get one they hate the character! Seriously you ask for one then you hate what they make?
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