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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 17, 2018 21:01:54 GMT -5
Wondering about this since I saw an old thread about a rule that discrimination is not allowed on here, and there seemed to be a discussion about this topic specifically and I wasn't sure if there was ultimately a conclusion, especially since I've recently come across some RP groups that ban players from having LGBT characters. So... is that allowed? If not, is there someone I can send links to these groups to have them looked at? And if it IS allowed... why is that? |
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Post by small.hope on Jul 17, 2018 21:47:52 GMT -5
Some of them are also going based off the books, where LGBT characters dont exist(minus what fans thing). Mainly because then the books would be banned in certain countries. I know there a clan I'm in that doesn't allow same gender couples because naturally it doesn't happen in the books, and my own has it's own LGBT rules for the same reasons. If they just downright ban LBGT because it's not natural IRL or they discriminate about it, then you just stay away. The growing world has no room for them anyways.
Edit; Here's my example.
I have a clan that allows LGBT cats, however same-gender relationships may not have kits and cannot 'find' kits because thats just not how it happens, thats not realistic in the least. And a kit won't know 'oh that's dad and dad but this she-cat raised me', they'll only know 'this is tom and tom and this she-cat is my mom because she nursed me and took care of me all my kithood'.
Some clans allow LGBP cats, but no T because that can make it difficult in rps and naturally in cats that doesn't really happen. Theres no cats in the books that are 'oh I was a tom but now I'm a she-cat' because in the books they are or aren't one thing or the other.
Some clans don't allow any of it for a couple reasons. Sometimes the person is hateful, but those you can tell and avoid. They're usually the 'LGBT is not natural so I won't allow it' types. Some are book related and say 'there are no naturally LGBT cats in the books despite fan theories'. And Some are people who just don't know enough about LGBT to be comfortable adding it to an rp they control in case they make a mistake or are rude or something.
In the end, a lot of it comes down to personal choice if that makes sense. Some are super lenient because they don't care and its all fun, some are slightly restricting because these are fan clans and they are fans of the books, some are more strict because they're strictly with the books, and some are just jerks that you should avoid. Usually by their wording you can tell which they are.
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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 17, 2018 21:52:54 GMT -5
Okay, but I mean - is this allowed in the rules? The thread I linked says discrimination isn't allowed, even with the debate in the thread. I agree that it's a good indicator of their values, but... why not just remove the RPs or warn their creators to change the rule? I don't really think it's worth letting people run discriminatory RP groups just for the sake of knowing who is and isn't homophobic/transphobic if nothing is done with that information.
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Post by small.hope on Jul 17, 2018 21:58:51 GMT -5
I fixed what I said, but mainly it's personal choice again. Just because I say I don't want LGBT cats in my clan doesn't make me phobic. There are reasons. It's not exactly discrimination because they're not attacking or hating anyone. They're not going around saying 'gays aren't natural' or anything, they just want a more realistic rp or have their own reasons behind it that aren't hate fueled.
And forcing people to change their rules is discriminatory in itself. Saying 'you have to change this or else' isn't a choice, but if you see a 'no LGBT cats' you have the option to not join. You can say 'okay screw your clan' and go find an accepting one.
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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 17, 2018 22:02:07 GMT -5
Some of them are also going based off the books, where LGBT characters dont exist(minus what fans thing). Mainly because then the books would be banned in certain countries. I know there a clan I'm in that doesn't allow same gender couples because naturally it doesn't happen in the books, and my own has it's own LGBT rules for the same reasons. If they just downright ban LBGT because it's not natural IRL or they discriminate about it, then you just stay away. The growing world has no room for them anyways. Edit; Here's my example. I have a clan that allows LGBT cats, however same-gender relationships may not have kits and cannot 'find' kits because thats just not how it happens, thats not realistic in the least. And a kit won't know 'oh that's dad and dad but this she-cat raised me', they'll only know 'this is tom and tom and this she-cat is my mom because she nursed me and took care of me all my kithood'. Some clans allow LGBP cats, but no T because that can make it difficult in rps and naturally in cats that doesn't really happen. Theres no cats in the books that are 'oh I was a tom but now I'm a she-cat' because in the books they are or aren't one thing or the other. Some clans don't allow any of it for a couple reasons. Sometimes the person is hateful, but those you can tell and avoid. They're usually the 'LGBT is not natural so I won't allow it' types. Some are book related and say 'there are no naturally LGBT cats in the books despite fan theories'. And Some are people who just don't know enough about LGBT to be comfortable adding it to an rp they control in case they make a mistake or are rude or something. In the end, a lot of it comes down to personal choice if that makes sense. Some are super lenient because they don't care and its all fun, some are slightly restricting because these are fan clans and they are fans of the books, some are more strict because they're strictly with the books, and some are just jerks that you should avoid. Usually by their wording you can tell which they are. See, I still see all three of these examples as being discriminatory. Same-gender couples can use surrogates, it's something I've been seeing becoming more popular in the fandom outside of this forum (though I haven't been on the forums until very recently since the old one was deleted, so, I don't know if its talked about much here or not). Or, with same-gender couples involving trans cats, such as two toms where one is trans, they would be able to produce kits. Not allowing trans characters is just transphobic. I don't see why "it's not in the books" is a valid reason for being discriminatory, by that logic you shouldn't invent new Clans or plotlines of your own since it doesn't happen in the books. Barely anything in Warriors naturally happens in cats... I really only see the "it's unrealistic" reason when it comes to LGBT cats, but not when it's about cats believing in a higher power or having an organized hierarchy with a trained healer. Again, though, my question is about if this is all allowed by the site's rules. |
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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 17, 2018 22:05:16 GMT -5
I fixed what I said, but mainly it's personal choice again. Just because I say I don't want LGBT cats in my clan doesn't make me phobic. There are reasons. It's not exactly discrimination because they're not attacking or hating anyone. They're not going around saying 'gays aren't natural' or anything, they just want a more realistic rp or have their own reasons behind it that aren't hate fueled. And forcing people to change their rules is discriminatory in itself. Saying 'you have to change this or else' isn't a choice, but if you see a 'no LGBT cats' you have the option to not join. You can say 'okay screw your clan' and go find an accepting one. What? How is asking people to change their rules discriminatory? Not allowing bigotry isn't bigotry. |
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Post by small.hope on Jul 17, 2018 22:22:24 GMT -5
Yes they can in some clans but in MY clan, that doesn't happen. Trans cats can have kits within their reasons of course, but surrogates can't. Because to ME, how I see the books, a kit relies on their mother. Their mother is their everything until they turn 6 moons old. There are stories within the series themselves that point this out heavily. Mistyfoot, Stonefur, Brokenstar, etc etc etc. They didn't know their true parents because they only knew the she-cat they were raised by. Even if they hated their mother in the end, that cat still raised them. It's like kidnapping a baby IRL. The baby won't know when they're older unless they find out, all they knew growing up was that this woman(or sometimes man) was their mom. Breaking that shatters their whole world. But unlike humans who can use surrogates because of baby formula and the like, there isn't a formula for kits to be raised by a tom. It doesn't happen. They NEED a she-cat to survive, both in the books and nature, therefore all they know is their mom. And some clans allow cats to find kits but mine takes place in the mountains where that's not really possible. The only way I'd allow a 'surrogate' or 'same gender cats having kits' is if it's two she-cats and one had gotten pregnant by a tom and the tom stays out of the picture so the she-cats raise the kits together. But for two toms it can't really happen based on how I see the books.
And everyone has their own choices. I don't mind trans cats in my clans, because who says it can't happen, but some people say it can't. Thats their choice. I'm trans and pan and still joined a clan that said no same-gender cats because of the owners own beliefs on how the books are. Everyone takes the books differently. And how they take it is how they run their clans.
And it is because its FORCING YOU TO DO THIS. YOU MUST DO THIS. YOU HAVE TO. SCREW YOU IF YOU DON'T AGREE, DO IT OR ELSE. Basically. It's not bigotry, I've never met a bigot on this site. At least not an open one, everyone here is.. pretty chill. But forcibly making people do this or that isn't okay in terms of running a site or rules. That'd be like the site deciding, no. No LGBT ANYTHING. Why? Because WE SAY SO OR ELSE. WE SAY SO a double edged sword.
I promise, no one here is a jerk or going to hate you for being LGBT. There are so many people I've met in this no same-gender relationship clan that ARE LGBT, and no one hates the rule. It's a nice clan to be in, everyone is super friendly. This place doesn't discriminate. But how people want to run their personal things is how they want to run it.
Think it this way.
I'd be like the Erins going around saying "No you can't have LGBT characters because our books don't have them' or even someone LGBT going around saying "NO you can't have a hetero oc because I'M NOT". It's always going to be a double edged sword.
The only time you should swing said sword is when people are phobic about it. Thats the only time it should be used.
But here.. I've yet to see anything like that happen. So don't worry so much about it, and if it bothers you, avoid the people. But I promise, you may be missing out on some amazing people because you do. No one is going to discriminate you or your characters for being LGBT.
Mind you, everything in here was mainly about cis characters. Obviously two toms can have kits if one is a trans tom, same for she-cats if one is trans she-cat or genderfluid. But I was using cis characters to base my explanations on.
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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 17, 2018 22:31:06 GMT -5
Yes they can in some clans but in MY clan, that doesn't happen. Trans cats can have kits within their reasons of course, but surrogates can't. Because to ME, how I see the books, a kit relies on their mother. Their mother is their everything until they turn 6 moons old. There are stories within the series themselves that point this out heavily. Mistyfoot, Stonefur, Brokenstar, etc etc etc. They didn't know their true parents because they only knew the she-cat they were raised by. Even if they hated their mother in the end, that cat still raised them. It's like kidnapping a baby IRL. The baby won't know when they're older unless they find out, all they knew growing up was that this woman(or sometimes man) was their mom. Breaking that shatters their whole world. But unlike humans who can use surrogates because of baby formula and the like, there isn't a formula for kits to be raised by a tom. It doesn't happen. They NEED a she-cat to survive, both in the books and nature, therefore all they know is their mom. And some clans allow cats to find kits but mine takes place in the mountains where that's not really possible. The only way I'd allow a 'surrogate' or 'same gender cats having kits' is if it's two she-cats and one had gotten pregnant by a tom and the tom stays out of the picture so the she-cats raise the kits together. But for two toms it can't really happen based on how I see the books. And everyone has their own choices. I don't mind trans cats in my clans, because who says it can't happen, but some people say it can't. Thats their choice. I'm trans and pan and still joined a clan that said no same-gender cats because of the owners own beliefs on how the books are. Everyone takes the books differently. And how they take it is how they run their clans. And it is because its FORCING YOU TO DO THIS. YOU MUST DO THIS. YOU HAVE TO. SCREW YOU IF YOU DON'T AGREE, DO IT OR ELSE. Basically. It's not bigotry, I've never met a bigot on this site. At least not an open one, everyone here is.. pretty chill. But forcibly making people do this or that isn't okay in terms of running a site or rules. That'd be like the site deciding, no. No LGBT ANYTHING. Why? Because WE SAY SO OR ELSE. WE SAY SO a double edged sword. I promise, no one here is a jerk or going to hate you for being LGBT. There are so many people I've met in this no same-gender relationship clan that ARE LGBT, and no one hates the rule. It's a nice clan to be in, everyone is super friendly. This place doesn't discriminate. But how people want to run their personal things is how they want to run it. Think it this way. I'd be like the Erins going around saying "No you can't have LGBT characters because our books don't have them' or even someone LGBT going around saying "NO you can't have a hetero oc because I'M NOT". It's always going to be a double edged sword. The only time you should swing said sword is when people are phobic about it. Thats the only time it should be used. But here.. I've yet to see anything like that happen. So don't worry so much about it, and if it bothers you, avoid the people. But I promise, you may be missing out on some amazing people because you do. No one is going to discriminate you or your characters for being LGBT. Mind you, everything in here was mainly about cis characters. Obviously two toms can have kits if one is a trans tom, same for she-cats if one is trans she-cat or genderfluid. But I was using cis characters to base my explanations on. Dude, I'm asking if the site ALLOWS banning of LGBT characters from RPs. I really don't want a rant on why you think people should be able to, I'm still trying to get an answer as to whether or not banning LGBT characters is allowed on this site. Not asking if the people who do it are good people or have their reasons, I'm asking if it is allowed in the rules of the site and, if it is, what the reasons are behind allowing it. Not people's motivations for doing it. |
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Post by small.hope on Jul 17, 2018 22:33:04 GMT -5
Yes it is allowed or they wouldn't let it happen. There's your answer. Because they're not attacking LGBT people there's nothing wrong with it. Obviously or they wouldn't let people say no LGBT characters. This isn't a new site. I'm not ranting, you have a kit rank and I thought you were worried people would discriminate you since you're new. I was trying to be helpful. The answer is yes, they are allowed to do that.
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Post by Sand on Jul 17, 2018 22:58:32 GMT -5
Roswell's answer above is what the forum's rules on LGBT characters go by.
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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 17, 2018 23:00:05 GMT -5
Yes it is allowed or they wouldn't let it happen. There's your answer. Because they're not attacking LGBT people there's nothing wrong with it. Obviously or they wouldn't let people say no LGBT characters. This isn't a new site. I'm not ranting, you have a kit rank and I thought you were worried people would discriminate you since you're new. I was trying to be helpful. The answer is yes, they are allowed to do that. So... banning LGBT characters from roleplay isn't discriminatory because "it's not attacking LGBT people", but having a rule that would not allow banning of LGBT characters IS discriminatory? How is refusing to allow people to make characters gay or trans not discrimination, but not allowing rules that ban those characters is discriminatory? This logic makes no sense to me. I understand this isn't a new site. That doesn't mean I can't question a rule that seems poorly defined with some moderators stating that discrimination, including banning of LGBT characters, isn't allowed, while others are saying they think it should be. If it is indeed a rule, where is it listed? |
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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 17, 2018 23:02:22 GMT -5
Roswell's answer above is what the forum's rules on LGBT characters go by. Thanks for giving a clear answer. Guess I'm done with the forums, then. Really tired of homophobes and transphobes in this fandom being allowed to act like this. |
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Post by Sand on Jul 18, 2018 0:51:42 GMT -5
quick post:
I'm (most likely) mistaken at this point-- I realized something after posting & it isn't a rule until we (staff) come to a final decision.
apologies for all the confusion I caused.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 18, 2018 1:54:33 GMT -5
hissingwillows I believe that it was once stated not to infringe on those that hold religious views? The forums are a mixed bag and by supporting one group, it harms the other. Instead, I think the forum moderators are trying to be neutral in the matter as to not step on toes. Indicating by the pride flags, several mods are not homophobic or transphobic. You can join a Clan that only allows LBGTQ+ or one that allows then in general. I truly believe the matter was handled this way to prevent any issues with someone's beliefs. And yes, it was asked and I think at one time there were a few role-plays asking for LBGTQ+ characters only were a thing, so as far as I personally know, it is allowed. You can also ban religion in your role-play and other things that must be appropriate in the rules and other discussions regarding such. |
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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 18, 2018 2:18:53 GMT -5
hissingwillows I believe that it was once stated not to infringe on those that hold religious views? The forums are a mixed bag and by supporting one group, it harms the other. Instead, I think the forum moderators are trying to be neutral in the matter as to not step on toes. Indicating by the pride flags, several mods are not homophobic or transphobic. You can join a Clan that only allows LBGTQ+ or one that allows then in general. I truly believe the matter was handled this way to prevent any issues with someone's beliefs. And yes, it was asked and I think at one time there were a few role-plays asking for LBGTQ+ characters only were a thing, so as far as I personally know, it is allowed. You can also ban religion in your role-play and other things that must be appropriate in the rules and other discussions regarding such. If that's the case, that's a poor excuse for allowing homophobia and transphobia. LGBT religious people exist, as well as religious people who support the LGBT community. The fact that pride flag banners and LGBT inclusive RPs exist shouldn't justify the existence of groups that explicitly exclude LGBT characters. If the forums are meant to be inclusive of LGBT fans, then the staff should stick to that message, even if it bothers members who are prejudiced. I'm looking forward to hearing more from the staff on this soon, because it sounds like this is something that will be discussed more. |
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Bisexual
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 18, 2018 4:57:32 GMT -5
hissingwillows I believe that it was once stated not to infringe on those that hold religious views? The forums are a mixed bag and by supporting one group, it harms the other. Instead, I think the forum moderators are trying to be neutral in the matter as to not step on toes. Indicating by the pride flags, several mods are not homophobic or transphobic. You can join a Clan that only allows LBGTQ+ or one that allows then in general. I truly believe the matter was handled this way to prevent any issues with someone's beliefs. And yes, it was asked and I think at one time there were a few role-plays asking for LBGTQ+ characters only were a thing, so as far as I personally know, it is allowed. You can also ban religion in your role-play and other things that must be appropriate in the rules and other discussions regarding such. If that's the case, that's a poor excuse for allowing homophobia and transphobia. LGBT religious people exist, as well as religious people who support the LGBT community. The fact that pride flag banners and LGBT inclusive RPs exist shouldn't justify the existence of groups that explicitly exclude LGBT characters. If the forums are meant to be inclusive of LGBT fans, then the staff should stick to that message, even if it bothers members who are prejudiced. I'm looking forward to hearing more from the staff on this soon, because it sounds like this is something that will be discussed more. I have my opinions and I'll continue trying to play devil's advocate, but they do have to try to be neutral. It's not exactly fair to be forced to see something as right, instead we need to properly educate and be patient. Considering the forums are again, a mixed bag, the forums need to try to be fair to all. This was the solution they had, because there are role-plays that do not allow straight characters, or I remember one. I know there are people who are both religious and are LBGTQ+ as well as supporters, but forcing something will only cause trouble. People complain about the site dying all the time, by trying to force things and not being accepting to making the right steps to change, we're not helping. |
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 18, 2018 5:25:11 GMT -5
Adding on, I think the rule is to say you can't discriminate against someone because they're LBGTQ+, not agaijst characters. Like someone cannot deny you because you are part of the community. |
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Post by bonsaibullet on Jul 18, 2018 10:22:03 GMT -5
Adding on, I think the rule is to say you can't discriminate against someone because they're LBGTQ+, not agaijst characters. Like someone cannot deny you because you are part of the community. The rule might not say anything about banning lgbt characters from rps but as a member of the lgbt community it certainly feels like im being excluded by not being able to make characters that are like me. To me it feels as though people are saying "You can be here, but only the parts of you that I like," even if that isnt the intent of the rp rules thats how it comes across. |
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
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Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 18, 2018 11:00:23 GMT -5
Adding on, I think the rule is to say you can't discriminate against someone because they're LBGTQ+, not agaijst characters. Like someone cannot deny you because you are part of the community. The rule might not say anything about banning lgbt characters from rps but as a member of the lgbt community it certainly feels like im being excluded by not being able to make characters that are like me. To me it feels as though people are saying "You can be here, but only the parts of you that I like," even if that isnt the intent of the rp rules thats how it comes across. I know, but I also agree with what Ros said. It shows you what kind of person they are and if you should associate with them. Plus you don't have to support that role-play. No one says you absolutely have to join that specific role-play. From what I see, they're in the minority, as a lot of role-plays I know and join support the community. I know it's a tricky situation, but I'm sure that the mods have their reasons. However, calling the forums homophobic and transphobic, which I saw, is not the right way to get what you want. |
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Post by Ƈяσωѕσηg on Jul 18, 2018 11:08:09 GMT -5
I really don't mean to intrude, especially given that I haven't been on this forum in a long time, but others have given an opinion on this and so too shall I because I feel some points are being missed here.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Simply, forcing everyone to allow LGBT characters into their roleplays with a rule that says banning isn't allowed, even phobic members' roleplays, just won't end well for anybody. As ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 stated, the staff here want to be neutral on the matter so that the forums as a whole can compensate for and satisfy all who choose to be here. And I think what small.hope was trying to explain was that while it is not okay to be discriminatory towards a LGBT member, it's fine for LGBT characters, as characters are only characters and do not hold as much significance as a real person's life does. There is a difference. And nobody said you had to join roleplays that do ban LGBT characters, and you don't always have to join roleplays using an LGBT character either. If you can't find a roleplay that meets your standards, then create your own, and do with it what you will. If someone is banning LGBT characters because of their phobic beliefs, then as @roswell said, it just gives you an idea of who you should associate with and who you should stay away from. If there is anyone who's phobic here in a community of cat-loving LGBT people, then that's their own problem and as long as they aren't targeting you specifically or being snide, it shouldn't concern you. Enforcing an intolerance to LGBT character banning will only create chaos and a split of the community among the forums, and that is something the staff doesn't need. Again, quoting small.hope here, by making anti-banning a rule we would be pushing out some of the community here because it would be discrimination against their beliefs or their desires to be as realistic as the books as possible, and would basically be a big "you aren't allowed to be on this forum" to the face. And that's unfair. I don't agree with phobic people and their beliefs because no matter what we are we still bleed the same color (unless you're a Vulcan haha Star Trek), but by restricting their freedom with a rule saying they have to allow LGBT we're being no better than they are in terms of discrimination.
If you expect the forums to be fair to LGBT anything, then you must accept that they will be fair to everything else. Which means people can choose to ban LGBT characters from their roleplays, just as LGBT members may join any roleplay they see fit to them, if they please.
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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 18, 2018 11:20:36 GMT -5
If that's the case, that's a poor excuse for allowing homophobia and transphobia. LGBT religious people exist, as well as religious people who support the LGBT community. The fact that pride flag banners and LGBT inclusive RPs exist shouldn't justify the existence of groups that explicitly exclude LGBT characters. If the forums are meant to be inclusive of LGBT fans, then the staff should stick to that message, even if it bothers members who are prejudiced. I'm looking forward to hearing more from the staff on this soon, because it sounds like this is something that will be discussed more. I have my opinions and I'll continue trying to play devil's advocate, but they do have to try to be neutral. It's not exactly fair to be forced to see something as right, instead we need to properly educate and be patient. Considering the forums are again, a mixed bag, the forums need to try to be fair to all. This was the solution they had, because there are role-plays that do not allow straight characters, or I remember one. I know there are people who are both religious and are LBGTQ+ as well as supporters, but forcing something will only cause trouble. People complain about the site dying all the time, by trying to force things and not being accepting to making the right steps to change, we're not helping. They really don't "have" to be neutral. Not allowing bigotry isn't "forcing" people to change their opinion. It simply doesn't allow them to express homophobia and transphobia. If the staff can't commit to disallowing homophobia and transphobia and instead choose to defend members' "right" to express it here, then yes, the space is homophobic and transphobic. Having pride flag banners doesn't mean anything if we can still be kept out of other spaces. Allowing discrimination isn't a "step to change". It's the opposite. Again, if the staff genuinely want this site to be inclusive of LGBT people, letting homophobes and transphobes ban LGBT characters from their groups sends a completely different message. Not allowing homophobia shows that the staff actually care about keeping discrimination off of here. Making a "new rule" about no discrimination being allowed and then letting it happen anyway is meaningless. |
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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 18, 2018 11:28:30 GMT -5
I really don't mean to intrude, especially given that I haven't been on this forum in a long time, but others have given an opinion on this and so too shall I because I feel some points are being missed here.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Simply, forcing everyone to allow LGBT characters into their roleplays with a rule that says banning isn't allowed, even phobic members' roleplays, just won't end well for anybody. As ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 stated, the staff here want to be neutral on the matter so that the forums as a whole can compensate for and satisfy all who choose to be here. And I think what small.hope was trying to explain was that while it is not okay to be discriminatory towards a LGBT member, it's fine for LGBT characters, as characters are only characters and do not hold as much significance as a real person's life does. There is a difference. And nobody said you had to join roleplays that do ban LGBT characters, and you don't always have to join roleplays using an LGBT character either. If you can't find a roleplay that meets your standards, then create your own, and do with it what you will. If someone is banning LGBT characters because of their phobic beliefs, then as @roswell said, it just gives you an idea of who you should associate with and who you should stay away from. If there is anyone who's phobic here in a community of cat-loving LGBT people, then that's their own problem and as long as they aren't targeting you specifically or being snide, it shouldn't concern you. Enforcing an intolerance to LGBT character banning will only create chaos and a split of the community among the forums, and that is something the staff doesn't need. Again, quoting small.hope here, by making anti-banning a rule we would be pushing out some of the community here because it would be discrimination against their beliefs or their desires to be as realistic as the books as possible, and would basically be a big "you aren't allowed to be on this forum" to the face. And that's unfair. I don't agree with phobic people and their beliefs because no matter what we are we still bleed the same color (unless you're a Vulcan haha Star Trek), but by restricting their freedom with a rule saying they have to allow LGBT we're being no better than they are in terms of discrimination.
If you expect the forums to be fair to LGBT anything, then you must accept that they will be fair to everything else. Which means people can choose to ban LGBT characters from their roleplays, just as LGBT members may join any roleplay they see fit to them, if they please. This isn't an issue of "being fair to two completely equal sides". This is an issue of either choosing to commit to disallowing discrimination towards LGBT people, who are quite literally an oppressed class, or continuing to allow homophobes and transphobes to do as they like. The latter are not hurt by having their bigotry banned on here. They get annoyed, and that's about it. LETTING bigotry happen just contributes to marginalization of LGBT people, which is more than just some people being mad online. Whether or not LGBT characters are as significant as a real person's life is besides the point - banning them sets an already negative tone, and the staff allowing members to do that just reinforces that. LGBT people should be able to express themselves on here, including with characters modeled like themselves in that way. Not allowing bigotry is literally not discrimination. I don't know how else to say that. It's not discrimination to ban racism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. Anti discrimination policies are not discrimination, and it's not "unfair" to people with bigoted beliefs. I really do not have to just accept that staff will allow homophobia and transphobia, ESPECIALLY when they apparently made a rule about them cracking down on discrimination, especially homophobia and transphobia. I'm going to continue to question it until I hear there's been an actual decision made by staff, because from messages I've received, it sounds like they never actually came to a conclusion on it. |
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 18, 2018 11:30:30 GMT -5
Forcing someone to accept something isn't going to help, though. It's an issue with a lot media regarding gay couples. And while I personally disagree and do not advocate, again, I think they want to remain neutral on the matter and try to be fair to everyone. Forcing someone who has a religion that doesn't allow you to who you are sucks, but acting like they can't act on it isn't okay as well. You have plenty of places to be who you want to be, don't force yourself in a place where someone may not want you because it's going to make it worse. I've tried that, it doesn't work and just blew up in my face. Hissing, you're not going about this the right way. I've seen your status and accusing people of being homophobic and transphobic when they're trying to be neutral and not take a side isn't cool. If it really bothers you, there are plenty of other sites. |
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 18, 2018 11:36:15 GMT -5
I really don't mean to intrude, especially given that I haven't been on this forum in a long time, but others have given an opinion on this and so too shall I because I feel some points are being missed here.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Simply, forcing everyone to allow LGBT characters into their roleplays with a rule that says banning isn't allowed, even phobic members' roleplays, just won't end well for anybody. As ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 stated, the staff here want to be neutral on the matter so that the forums as a whole can compensate for and satisfy all who choose to be here. And I think what small.hope was trying to explain was that while it is not okay to be discriminatory towards a LGBT member, it's fine for LGBT characters, as characters are only characters and do not hold as much significance as a real person's life does. There is a difference. And nobody said you had to join roleplays that do ban LGBT characters, and you don't always have to join roleplays using an LGBT character either. If you can't find a roleplay that meets your standards, then create your own, and do with it what you will. If someone is banning LGBT characters because of their phobic beliefs, then as @roswell said, it just gives you an idea of who you should associate with and who you should stay away from. If there is anyone who's phobic here in a community of cat-loving LGBT people, then that's their own problem and as long as they aren't targeting you specifically or being snide, it shouldn't concern you. Enforcing an intolerance to LGBT character banning will only create chaos and a split of the community among the forums, and that is something the staff doesn't need. Again, quoting small.hope here, by making anti-banning a rule we would be pushing out some of the community here because it would be discrimination against their beliefs or their desires to be as realistic as the books as possible, and would basically be a big "you aren't allowed to be on this forum" to the face. And that's unfair. I don't agree with phobic people and their beliefs because no matter what we are we still bleed the same color (unless you're a Vulcan haha Star Trek), but by restricting their freedom with a rule saying they have to allow LGBT we're being no better than they are in terms of discrimination.
If you expect the forums to be fair to LGBT anything, then you must accept that they will be fair to everything else. Which means people can choose to ban LGBT characters from their roleplays, just as LGBT members may join any roleplay they see fit to them, if they please. This isn't an issue of "being fair to two completely equal sides". This is an issue of either choosing to commit to disallowing discrimination towards LGBT people, who are quite literally an oppressed class, or continuing to allow homophobes and transphobes to do as they like. The latter are not hurt by having their bigotry banned on here. They get annoyed, and that's about it. LETTING bigotry happen just contributes to marginalization of LGBT people, which is more than just some people being mad online. Whether or not LGBT characters are as significant as a real person's life is besides the point - banning them sets an already negative tone, and the staff allowing members to do that just reinforces that. LGBT people should be able to express themselves on here, including with characters modeled like themselves in that way. Not allowing bigotry is literally not discrimination. I don't know how else to say that. It's not discrimination to ban racism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. Anti discrimination policies are not discrimination, and it's not "unfair" to people with bigoted beliefs. I really do not have to just accept that staff will allow homophobia and transphobia, ESPECIALLY when they apparently made a rule about them cracking down on discrimination, especially homophobia and transphobia. I'm going to continue to question it until I hear there's been an actual decision made by staff, because from messages I've received, it sounds like they never actually came to a conclusion on it. May be wrong, but there are a lot of people part of the community where they want to come out or not, I think on here, religious people are in the slight minority. Ros goes out of their way to include pride stuff, it's pretty obvious there is a lot of support for the community here. And again, do you really want to role-play and interact with people that don't accept you or be with people that will welcome you? I'm getting frustrated because you're not getting our point and just repeating yourself. I'm not a fan of people not allowing them, but I'm not going to force my characters onto them because that's not right, either. Educating properly and patience is key in getting what you want. Surround yourself with people that support you, not people that secretly hate you. On the old forums, every kind of expression that was relating to any kind of identity was oppressed, and it falls on the countries that simply don't allow people of the community. I hate to say it, but if a person wants to express religious freedom, which I may point out gets made fun of on occasion here in certain sections, they can. Remaining neutral is the best path for right now. |
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Post by small.hope on Jul 18, 2018 11:37:07 GMT -5
Look, we've told you the reason why. If you're determined to think what you want to think, fine. We've told you why it is the way that it is and if you want to leave, leave. If not, then you'll have to get used to it. This place doesn't discriminate against ANYONE. AT ALL. Doesn't matter who you are, what you believe, this place doesn't discriminate and they have to make neutral rules to follow that. Unless you think it's okay for them to discriminate in favor of one group over another, but that defeats the question your asking in itself.
You HAVE you decision. Neutral grounds. They're not going to change it to make you feel better about it. There was a conclusion, its the same conclusion most of the internet has some to unless they're an extremist site which I hope this one will never ever get to that point. And yes, there are LGBT extremists too, so that would count.
They're not going to change their minds because one person saw 'no LGBT CHARACTERS' and decided everyone(including the obviously LGBT members) are apparently discriminatory.
If you're that set in your ways, you're welcome to leave. You won't be getting any other answers than the ones we've given you. And if you can't handle those answers, then this forum isn't for you. But as I said before, you'd be missing out on a lot of amazing people because you're letting simple rules in fake rps decide that everyone here follows some sort of bigotry whether they're LGBT or not apparently.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 11:46:05 GMT -5
Honestly Willow, this is beginning to look a lot like an echo chamber. You're refusing to listen to anyone else's rather valid points and just repeating your own; if you wanted a discussion, participate in one and understand that some of the posters are trying to help.
- As far as anyone is aware, cats cannot be trans. Hence its entirely fair for thread owners to choose not to allow trans cats in their clans, regardless of personal beliefs because its simply not realistic, and for those like me who insist on realism in their roleplays, I understand the wish to not include this type of characters. I personally allow LGBT charries in my clans, but I think its unfair to force others to do so if they don't feel its realistic in the setting of their clans. You can call me and anyone else on here a transphobe all you like, I know its not true for I have exactly zero problem with any person characterising their cats as LGBT or being LGBT themselves so you're just wasting your fingers energy by simply typing it up. Its just childish assumption in all honesty.
- Yes there are L/G cat examples in the wild, for example lions. But the fair matter can be raised that it is difficult to roleplay this type of character in the context of the forums. For example, how do you bring it up without inadvertantly making LGBT the only characteristics of your cat, which in itself is very stereotypical, if not in of itself rather homophobic. Unless through using a surrogate, these cats cant have kits; and if you allow surrogates that raises a subject which frankly isn't forum friendly in exactly how said surrogate becomes pregnant.
Just wished to throw in my two pennies, because frankly calling people bigots for aiming to be realistic is unfair.
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Asexual
Ƈяσωѕσηg
Check Meowt! I'm purr-etty pawsome!
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Post by Ƈяσωѕσηg on Jul 18, 2018 11:52:38 GMT -5
I really would like to understand you, but I can't be enlightened. Here you are, talking of bigotry and how it shouldn't be allowed, which just makes you sound like a bigot yourself when someone comes to the forefront and gives you an answer you don't like. It's hard to understand someone when what they're saying or doing goes against your stance on the issue at hand. But it is a two way street.
Again, if people feel they can't make a character like them for a roleplay, then they can easily make their own and that's the end of it. And don't forget, if the staff were to set an anti-banning rule on the forum that disallowed people to ban LGBT characters from their roleplays, then that would also mean people wouldn't be able to ban straight characters from their roleplays either, and that's where the level of unfairness for all comes in. You can't have it one way or the other and still expect it to be a fair trade, nor is the wishes of one going to overshadow the wishes of all, as majority vote will win. Why should one group be forced to tolerate the other when the other has just as little tolerance for the one? Rain made an excellent point in that you can't force your characters onto someone that doesn't want them, just as someone can't force their religion onto you. This forum may not be very new, but it isn't very old either, it still has a ways to grow before it reaches the potential that the original forums had - therefore, neutral is the path that is to be taken with it.
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Post by blisdon on Jul 18, 2018 12:30:26 GMT -5
if someone made a forum or thread where no cishets were allowed, there would be tantrums thrown and mods would be scrambling to pick up the pieces, but no lgbt characters? pfft - that's a-okay ! pretty bold to see a lot of trans and nonbinary flags playing devil's advocate for rules that get to pick and choose what part of a community can stay and go. you know, a community you are a part of. but what do i know?
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Post by small.hope on Jul 18, 2018 12:37:43 GMT -5
if someone made a forum or thread where no cishets were allowed, there would be tantrums thrown and mods would be scrambling to pick up the pieces, but no lgbt characters? pfft - that's a-okay ! pretty bold to see a lot of trans and nonbinary flags playing devil's advocate for rules that get to pick and choose what part of a community can stay and go. you know, a community you are a part of. but what do i know? But what you're saying is absolutely incorrect. This forum nor any threads say 'no LGBT allowed' just characters, and theres a difference between fictional character and real life people. We're not playing devil's advocate(Funny words to use against LGBT people who're usually seen as the devil ahem), we're pointing out facts of life and how it is. This forum ISNT banning LGBT. And THERE ARE LGBT ONLY CLANS WHERE HET CATS AREN'T ALLOWED. So your argument falls apart right there. There are LGBT only clans and no LGBT clans, and there are PLENTY that all everyone and everything. I'm gay as they come and see no issues with.. really anything on this site because I know how sites are run and how hard it is to please people, hense why 'neutral' is the best way to go about it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 12:41:47 GMT -5
That is quite honestly a bull assumption made with absolutely no research done, there are threads where only LGBT characters are allowed, from memory there was one called RainbowClan a while back, and guess what? It was perfectly allowed and semi popular, you are making that point for the sheer purpose of trying to prove one when in truth its an absolute lie. You are trying to prove people as homophobes when it is not the truth. Try again all you like but you will fail because its not the truth, go take your soap box somewhere else where it can be used for an actual decent purpose and stop harassing nice people trying to explain our opinions.
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