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Post by streamflower on May 14, 2018 10:20:27 GMT -5
So I was wondering about an issue with leaders recently and wanted another opinion on it.
If you recall, Brokenstar was effectively exiled from Shadowclan. He most likely only had 1 life left due to the fact that the deathberries killed him. If he was exiled (and he was), why was he still considered leader of Shadowclan? Furthermore, why was Nightpelt not given the name Nightstar, along with 8 lives (as opposed to 9).
I ask this because Sunstar was still made leader but was only given 8 lives due to the fact that Pinestar refused to give up his last life after he retired from being leader of Thunderclan. In other words, regardless of what Pinestar said (and due to the fact that he was technically exiled) he should still have been considered leader of Thunderclan, and if Starclan acted similarly here as they did with Shadowclan, then Sunstar would never have been given his name or any lives for that matter.
I guess my question is whether or not you think Nightpelt should have just been given the name + 8 lives in the end. What would have happened to Shadowclan? Nightpelt was old if I remember correctly, but even if given 8 lives he'd still be left with 7 after the sickness. Tigerstar would most likely not have taken over, the rogues (Blackfoot, Russetfur, Clawface, etc) would most likely not have been welcomed back to Shadowclan, Hawkfrost and Mothwing may have ceased to exist, and more.
I understand that it was done to allow Tigerstar to take over, but what if, I guess? Thoughts?
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Post by juvoyx on May 14, 2018 10:32:38 GMT -5
I think he wasn't that old. Yes, I remember when Yellowfang called her friends and (I think) she said they were seniors/elders; probably the ones exiled from the SC's camp during Brokenstar's leadership. But he was Brokenstar's mentor and the reason he moved with the elders was for his constant cough. He was a young warrior and it isn't too much the time between he moved and Brokenstar was "defeated" (first book).
In my opinion: things happened like that because it was convenient. That's all. It should have been like you say, a Nightstar with 8 lifes.
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Post by Katanaheart on May 14, 2018 10:42:26 GMT -5
Nightstar was not given any lives due to the fact that Brokenstar currently possessed all nine of his lives, when Nightstar was made leader and journeyed to StarClan.
It likely didn’t occur to him to ever return to the Moonstone to see if any of Brokenstar’s lives had dwindled. (
So to Nightstar, he probably assumed Brokenstar still carried all nine or at least more than one life, by the time he was living in ThunderClan.
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Post by streamflower on May 14, 2018 10:51:19 GMT -5
I think he wasn't that old. Yes, I remember when Yellowfang called her friends and (I think) she said they were seniors/elders; probably the ones exiled from the SC's camp during Brokenstar's leadership. But he was Brokenstar's mentor and the reason he moved with the elders was for his constant cough. He was a young warrior and it isn't too much the time between he moved and Brokenstar was "defeated" (first book). In my opinion: things happened like that because it was convenient. That's all. It should have been like you say, a Nightstar with 8 lifes. Yeah, I figured as much. I think Nightstar would have been pretty cool. Though I wish the authors would just remain consistent. While the idea of Sunstar being granted only 8 lives was interesting, it just leaves for issues past that... But Yellowfang confirmed that Brokenstar was on his last life before she killed him? I just remember Runningnose saying that Nightpelt didn't receive the lives because Starclan still recognized Brokenstar as the leader of Shadowclan. I do recall them traveling to Moonstone and seeming disheartened after returning though. Are you referring to Nightstar's second visit to Moonstone after Brokenstar was confirmed dead? Regardless, I'm guessing it's more or less what juyoyx suggested; just for convenience (unfortunately) |
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Post by wheeledwarrior on May 14, 2018 11:48:59 GMT -5
Brokenstar was confirmed to have all nine lives when Nightstar became leader. He only had one left later because he probably lost them living as a rouge. Furthermore, Sunstar was approved to be Deputy, when Nightstar was not (Blackfoot still legally held the position, even though Cinderfur served under Nightstar). Finally, it's stated that exile of a leader is not approved by Starclan and that's what happened to Brokenstar. Pinestar wasn't exiled, but instead chose to leave at his own free will. Basically, he retired, and that is approved.
Also, Nightstar only went to Moonstone once. By the time the previous leader died, he was too weak to make the journey and died shortly after.
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Post by Katanaheart on May 14, 2018 12:00:47 GMT -5
I think he wasn't that old. Yes, I remember when Yellowfang called her friends and (I think) she said they were seniors/elders; probably the ones exiled from the SC's camp during Brokenstar's leadership. But he was Brokenstar's mentor and the reason he moved with the elders was for his constant cough. He was a young warrior and it isn't too much the time between he moved and Brokenstar was "defeated" (first book). In my opinion: things happened like that because it was convenient. That's all. It should have been like you say, a Nightstar with 8 lifes. Yeah, I figured as much. I think Nightstar would have been pretty cool. Though I wish the authors would just remain consistent. While the idea of Sunstar being granted only 8 lives was interesting, it just leaves for issues past that... But Yellowfang confirmed that Brokenstar was on his last life before she killed him? I just remember Runningnose saying that Nightpelt didn't receive the lives because Starclan still recognized Brokenstar as the leader of Shadowclan. I do recall them traveling to Moonstone and seeming disheartened after returning though. Are you referring to Nightstar's second visit to Moonstone after Brokenstar was confirmed dead? Regardless, I'm guessing it's more or less what juyoyx suggested; just for convenience (unfortunately) To my knowledge he only had one visit, and that was when Runningnose explained that Nightstar had no lives? |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 12:06:29 GMT -5
I think it's got to do with how leaders lost their rank. Pinestar left willingly and was replaced by the rightful/chosen deputy. While Brokenstar was exiled, alongside his deputy by an unauthorized rebellion and was replaced by a cat who never held the position of leader/deputy even once. (If Nightpelt had been the retired deputy then maybe he may had more grounds).
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Post by wheeledwarrior on May 14, 2018 12:10:10 GMT -5
That's exactly what happened. And although cats who have never been deputy can hold the position (Flowerstar, Tigerstar I), they must be approved by Starclan first. Nightstar was never approved, so he couldn't legally advance to the leader position.
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Post by Sundance on May 14, 2018 12:59:42 GMT -5
Brokenstar was confirmed to have all nine lives when Nightstar became leader. He only had one left later because he probably lost them living as a rouge. Furthermore, Sunstar was approved to be Deputy, when Nightstar was not (Blackfoot still legally held the position, even though Cinderfur served under Nightstar). Finally, it's stated that exile of a leader is not approved by Starclan and that's what happened to Brokenstar. Pinestar wasn't exiled, but instead chose to leave at his own free will. Basically, he retired, and that is approved. Also, Nightstar only went to Moonstone once. By the time the previous leader died, he was too weak to make the journey and died shortly after. Where was this confirmed? |
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Post by Amberfoot on May 14, 2018 13:48:42 GMT -5
Yeah, it seems pretty heavy for him to loose all of his other lives as a rogue. It takes a long time for leaders' lives to dwindle down. I think it's just an inconsistency in the books. I believe Brokenstar had 1 life left when he came to ThunderClan (and maybe lost one or so while a rogue) and that the deathberries killed him. I think before Bluestar's Prophecy came out, there wasn't such thing as one leader taking x amount of lives that the other leader doesn't have.
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Post by wheeledwarrior on May 14, 2018 13:51:53 GMT -5
Brokenstar having all nine lives was confirmed during Firepaw's battle with him in into the wild. He mentions that if Firepaw wants to kill him, he has to do so nine times because he is a Clan leader. It wouldn't make sense for him to say that if he had less than nine lives left.
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Post by juvoyx on May 14, 2018 13:55:14 GMT -5
Brokenstar having all nine lives was confirmed during Firepaw's battle with him in into the wild. He mentions that if Firepaw wants to kill him, he has to do so nine times because he is a Clan leader. It wouldn't make sense for him to say that if he had less than nine lives left. Well, but why would he said, in case he had 3 lives, "you will have to kill me three times"? Saying he has 9 lives makes him look stronger and causes fear for his long life ahead. |
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Post by wheeledwarrior on May 14, 2018 13:57:28 GMT -5
True, but if he doesn't have nine lives he could've easily said something like you'll have to kill me more than once. It would've made the same effect, but by saying that he specifically has nine, I'd like to believe that he literally has nine lives.
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Post by streamflower on May 14, 2018 14:15:48 GMT -5
True, but if he doesn't have nine lives he could've easily said something like you'll have to kill me more than once. It would've made the same effect, but by saying that he specifically has nine, I'd like to believe that he literally has nine lives. Yeah but it's canon that leaders never tell how many lives they have left except to their medicine cats and maybe their deputies. Again, he could have survived one bought of deathberries, and Tigerstar is the first cat we've seen die nine times in a row. If Brokenstar died 9 times in a row they'd have portrayed that in the book. I think he was just saying that in order to scare Firepaw, not necessarily because he was telling the truth. The cat is messed up, and if he's willing to lie about murdering kits, he's willing to lie about how many lives he has left to a strange cat in another clan. |
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Mayflower
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Post by Mayflower on May 14, 2018 16:06:30 GMT -5
True, but if he doesn't have nine lives he could've easily said something like you'll have to kill me more than once. It would've made the same effect, but by saying that he specifically has nine, I'd like to believe that he literally has nine lives. Yeah but it's canon that leaders never tell how many lives they have left except to their medicine cats and maybe their deputies. Again, he could have survived one bought of deathberries, and Tigerstar is the first cat we've seen die nine times in a row. If Brokenstar died 9 times in a row they'd have portrayed that in the book. I think he was just saying that in order to scare Firepaw, not necessarily because he was telling the truth. The cat is messed up, and if he's willing to lie about murdering kits, he's willing to lie about how many lives he has left to a strange cat in another clan. Yeah, that's how it's seemingly always been with the leaders. Only recently is it apparently different now. After the rogue border battle and while Onestar was recovering from losing a life, someone asked how many he had left, and a WindClan cat said only Onestar knew. Alderheart was startled, and thought something like, "Don't they count the passing lives?" but except for that, nobody -- even medicine cats -- talk about the leaders' lives nowadays, which is weird. Alderheart certainly doesn't know how many Bramblestar has, and from what I recall, Jayfeather doesn't indicate he knows/knew for Bramblestar or Firestar. Anyway, I, for one, would like to know if my Clan leader is gonna bonk out on me at any given moment during a battle and not come back because nobody knows how many lives he has left lol sort of gives the enemy a bit of an important advantage, especially when you're facing cats like Darktail with no honor. |
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Post by Brindlefern on May 14, 2018 19:02:44 GMT -5
I think it's due to how they lost their leadership.
Brokenstar never lost his remaining lives (He didn't have all 9, I think he brought that up to Firepaw to scare him. He had 3 left, was killed by Yellowfang once, then to his wounds in FoS, then to the deathberries right after) through proper demotion like Pinestar did, and he was banished from his clan. Being banished isn't approved by Starclan as a full on retirement, so he was still basically considered their leader, and why Nightstar wasn't approved because of that.
It's on the wikia that Brokenstar's banishment didn't count and explains it:
Nightstar should've been given his lives, but he wasn't because Brokenstar was still technically Shadowclan's leader and wasn't killed at the time.
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