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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 9:41:17 GMT -5
Just thought it was a good thread idea in light of Moonkitti's latest video:
I honestly agree with moonkitti for the most part. Borders change and no territory is "rightfully theirs", it's fought over and defended. For example, the campground at the lake isn't "rightfully" ShadowClan's, they fought over it with ThunderClan and ThunderClan won ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ so like, it's ThunderClans. You can whine and whine how it used to be ShadowClan's and they had it first... but ThunderClan won and defended it from then on... so it's ThunderClan's. End of story.
And say Onestar had done the thing he should have done instead of caused a massive 4-clan war- invaded ThunderClan's WindClan border and taken back the moorland Onestar originally gave to Firestar on the other side of the stream back in Starlight. They were starving and needed more territory so that invasion would have been perfect- get the prey they needed to not starve and... not scare ThunderClan into thinking they were getting driven out and asking ShadowClan for help causing the domino effect that ended with the eclipse etc etc needless to say I honestly wish Onestar had done this territory claim instead.
Anyways, had WindClan gotten that territory back- and I honestly think they would have, they kicked ThunderClan's butts even without RiverClan, that would now be WindClan's land. No whys, no buts, the old Onestar didn't matter and as far as they would have been concerned the old border was nonexistent as long as WindClan could have defended that new land from then on.
Now, of course the only time gaining territory would be unjust would be to literally take so much territory that a clan is driven out like WindClan. Though, that's now technically protected under Bramblestar's new code. But as for the general border and territory along the borders, that's always going to be uncertain as long as the clans are able/or unable to defend it. Any arguments the clans have given to fight for land claiming that it's "rightfully theirs" is just propaganda to rile their soldiers up.
Basically, imo territory belongs to whoever's able to defend it. Not who uses it the most wisely and not whoever had it for the longest time- or the first time.
But that's just my standpoint, what's yours?
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Post by wheeledwarrior on May 14, 2018 10:15:59 GMT -5
The problem is by that logic, you get leaders like Darktail, Scourge, and Brokenstar. They were willing to expand their territory no matter who got hurt, making enemies everywhere, simply because they believed in the above philosophy. There's also the problem of having more territory than someone can reliably take care of. And that leads to a whole new set of problems...
I like the way the Clans do it now, because it minimizes bloodshed ( at least as much as bloodshed can be minimized in Warriors). It also prevents someone from having too much territory, or too little.
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Post by Πιghtωιηg on May 14, 2018 10:54:00 GMT -5
but sunningrocks is rIGHTFULLY THUNDERCLAN'S
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 11:07:58 GMT -5
The problem is by that logic, you get leaders like Darktail, Scourge, and Brokenstar. They were willing to expand their territory no matter who got hurt, making enemies everywhere, simply because they believed in the above philosophy. There's also the problem of having more territory than someone can reliably take care of. And that leads to a whole new set of problems... I like the way the Clans do it now, because it minimizes bloodshed ( at least as much as bloodshed can be minimized in Warriors). It also prevents someone from having too much territory, or too little. Well, no, I'm not talking about "I have the right to invade anyone I want because it's not inheritely their's", I'm talking about taking and defending territory because they actually need it for survival, not for dark purposes. Darktail was just clan hater and was out to destroy the clans, he didn't particularly care about land or territory. Scourge also didn't care for the clan system and just wanted more food for his cats- and power. ShadowClan was "starving" not because they were short on prey but because of unequal distribution of food and general hatred of WindClan- causing them to get driven out. Brokenstar only used the need for food as an excuse, when he just wanted power and control. What I'm talking about is just plain rights to land and whether it's inheritely one clan's no matter what happens, particularly lands on the border. One clan might be running out of food and need to take some border territory to survive- in ThunderClan's case, Sunningrocks. I am not saying it is right to just go and try to drive a clan out for food- that's completely unecessary and wrong. RiverClan and ShadowClan tried to drive out WindClan a second time for completely wrong- morally wrong reasons- RiverClan could have just actually taken back Sunningrocks for good and gotten the extra prey there, and ShadowClan were just being prideful and secretly supportive of Brokenstar driving out WindClan. I don't know if that all makes sense, but I hope I didn't come off as ok with mass murderers and villains justifying their atrocities with no inherit right to land, which I'm not. The clans have an inherit right to exist and survive, but it's up to them to make sure they have enough extra territory to not go hungry each winter. And "but we've had that piece of land for decades" is not an excuse. At the end of the day the clans have the right to make sure they don't starve each winter- no, not by driving out other clans- but by increasing the amount of territory they have along the border. |
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Post by wheeledwarrior on May 14, 2018 11:40:10 GMT -5
The problem is by that logic, you get leaders like Darktail, Scourge, and Brokenstar. They were willing to expand their territory no matter who got hurt, making enemies everywhere, simply because they believed in the above philosophy. There's also the problem of having more territory than someone can reliably take care of. And that leads to a whole new set of problems... I like the way the Clans do it now, because it minimizes bloodshed ( at least as much as bloodshed can be minimized in Warriors). It also prevents someone from having too much territory, or too little. Well, no, I'm not talking about "I have the right to invade anyone I want because it's not inheritely their's", I'm talking about taking and defending territory because they actually need it for survival, not for dark purposes. Darktail was just clan hater and was out to destroy the clans, he didn't particularly care about land or territory. Scourge also didn't care for the clan system and just wanted more food for his cats- and power. ShadowClan was "starving" not because they were short on prey but because of unequal distribution of food and general hatred of WindClan- causing them to get driven out. Brokenstar only used the need for food as an excuse, when he just wanted power and control. What I'm talking about is just plain rights to land and whether it's inheritely one clan's no matter what happens, particularly lands on the border. One clan might be running out of food and need to take some border territory to survive- in ThunderClan's case, Sunningrocks. I am not saying it is right to just go and try to drive a clan out for food- that's completely unecessary and wrong. RiverClan and ShadowClan tried to drive out WindClan a second time for completely wrong- morally wrong reasons- RiverClan could have just actually taken back Sunningrocks for good and gotten the extra prey there, and ShadowClan were just being prideful and secretly supportive of Brokenstar driving out WindClan. I don't know if that all makes sense, but I hope I didn't come off as ok with mass murderers and villains justifying their atrocities with no inherit right to land, which I'm not. The clans have an inherit right to exist and survive, but it's up to them to make sure they have enough extra territory to not go hungry each winter. And "but we've had that piece of land for decades" is not an excuse. At the end of the day the clans have the right to make sure they don't starve each winter- no, not by driving out other clans- but by increasing the amount of territory they have along the border. I feel like it would eventually turn into so then like those three though. Because then there's the definition of what is needed to survive, and because each leader would probably have a different definition of that, it would probably turn into more battles over land and cats taking as much land as they could from each other in order to survive. I mean, the problem with that was seen in Dawn of the Clans, and this was part of the reason why borders and are the restrictions were created. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 12:11:29 GMT -5
Well, no, I'm not talking about "I have the right to invade anyone I want because it's not inheritely their's", I'm talking about taking and defending territory because they actually need it for survival, not for dark purposes. Darktail was just clan hater and was out to destroy the clans, he didn't particularly care about land or territory. Scourge also didn't care for the clan system and just wanted more food for his cats- and power. ShadowClan was "starving" not because they were short on prey but because of unequal distribution of food and general hatred of WindClan- causing them to get driven out. Brokenstar only used the need for food as an excuse, when he just wanted power and control. What I'm talking about is just plain rights to land and whether it's inheritely one clan's no matter what happens, particularly lands on the border. One clan might be running out of food and need to take some border territory to survive- in ThunderClan's case, Sunningrocks. I am not saying it is right to just go and try to drive a clan out for food- that's completely unecessary and wrong. RiverClan and ShadowClan tried to drive out WindClan a second time for completely wrong- morally wrong reasons- RiverClan could have just actually taken back Sunningrocks for good and gotten the extra prey there, and ShadowClan were just being prideful and secretly supportive of Brokenstar driving out WindClan. I don't know if that all makes sense, but I hope I didn't come off as ok with mass murderers and villains justifying their atrocities with no inherit right to land, which I'm not. The clans have an inherit right to exist and survive, but it's up to them to make sure they have enough extra territory to not go hungry each winter. And "but we've had that piece of land for decades" is not an excuse. At the end of the day the clans have the right to make sure they don't starve each winter- no, not by driving out other clans- but by increasing the amount of territory they have along the border. I feel like it would eventually turn into so then like those three though. Because then there's the definition of what is needed to survive, and because each leader would probably have a different definition of that, it would probably turn into more battles over land and cats taking as much land as they could from each other in order to survive. I mean, the problem with that was seen in Dawn of the Clans, and this was part of the reason why borders and are the restrictions were created. True, I agree it is risky, but I honestly see no problem with it as long as there isn't an extreme. Bad cats can manipulate anything to make it beneficial to them, so if we're going to go about saying "we can't let that happen or else something extreme will happen", that can honestly happen with anything. In general I didn't really mean this thread to become a topic of invasion philosophy, at the ground roots I was just arguing that RiverClan doesn't inherently own Sunningrocks because it's technically owned by whoever literally owns it- and is able to defend it- not by whoever historically owned it. It was a pile of rocks along the border, which has shifted back and forth over time if you pay close attention. At one time it was mentioned that the strip of land next to the river on ThunderClan's side was also RiverClan's- that's the main reason why Dapplepaw and Whitepaw were punished in that one story, not by going fishing, but because they were in RiverClan territory. But eventually, ThunderClan seems to have gotten the rights to their entire side of the riverbank because Graystripe brought his kits right over the water before bringing them over. Basically, I agree with you- complete invasion isn't cool and it can lead to clans getting taken advantage of- but I honestly think border disputes are completely fine and help keep the clans on their toes and willing to defend their borders. |
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Post by Lightflame on May 14, 2018 13:08:27 GMT -5
Sunningrocks belongs to the Tribe.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 13:26:24 GMT -5
sunningrocks and the wasps
a poem by bad_wcf_poet
some say it is of the water
to others it belongs to the storm
but it belongs to neither river's son or thunder's daughter
but instead it belongs to the terrifying wasp swarm.
"at least sunningrocks is ours now!"
said loudbelly in the old territories once the clans had left
but out came the wasps, and with a final "yEOW"
loudbelly's body was deserted and cleft.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 14, 2018 16:08:54 GMT -5
Sunningrocks belongs to RiverClan you cowards.
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Post by Fernstep on May 14, 2018 16:18:45 GMT -5
Infinity War dies in Sunningrocks.
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