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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2018 16:25:55 GMT -5
Yes- I'm going to defend Needletail and the Shadowclan apprentices defeating to the Kin. And this is especially for the first wave of defeaters, before the Kin was proven to be savage/lawless.
Edit: This isn't specifically about Needletail. And I'm defending the apprentices that joined the Kin before they knew what it was really like. Cats who joined when they knew that the Kin's true ways, won't be counted.
Yes, the apprentices 'betrayed' the Clans by leaving to join another group. However betrayal inheriting isn't evil. It's also about preparative: Boulder/Barley betraying Bloodclan and fighting for the Clans is glorified as a good thing. While Jaggedtooth betraying and fighting for Clan is verified as evil/cowardice.
Rowanstar was already failing as a Leader. Not only that, but Starclan has failed as well, not preventing the Dark forest from slaying a large number of Clan cats, including kits and corrupting others. Then, just in general, the Clans are an obsessive system; forced to remain in one small area for your whole life, unable to change you name usually, very limited amount of 'legal' mates and judgment/action taken against innocent cats for circumstances of their birth.
Then here comes, a group of rouges, who prove to hunt better then their Clan. Yet despite Shadowclan rejecting them, they humbly accept it and leave. The Kin seemed to offer up much more freedoms. Even allowing kittypets to join, treating all cats equally (or would seem so at first for the apprentices). I don't see this as inhabitable wrong/'evil', they're trying to seek a more fulfilling life. This is what the kin originally looked like to them. They didn't know some of them, and when they discovered, it was too late.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2018 16:41:42 GMT -5
The way everyone handled it wasnt right. Needletail was the first to support Darktail and it just seems like to me that the moment she joined The Kin, she stopped caring about everyone in general. Some cats actually chose to be evil since they joined, like Sleekwhisker. While Needletail wasn't evil, she's done bad things, and that's why she wasn't allowed into StarClan for a while. She had to make up for what she's done.
You can't blame Rowanstar for the fallout. Sure, he could've been a better leader, but his clan was already out of control. They were tearing down his self-esteem and that's when he gave up, because he felt he was no longer worth it.
No one handled this situation right. ShadowClan should have been more respectful to their younger cats, but the ones who joined The Kin did betray their Clan.
Also, StarClan had no power to stop the Dark Forest from what I remember. Rock said the battle was always meant to happen. They didn't even have the power to watch over their Clans anymore once they began to rise, so I don't know why you're saying they should have helped stop them. StarClan was powerless to do anything.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 9, 2018 16:49:11 GMT -5
Until the kin slaughters, drowns, abuses and forces loyalty from their members, does not allow joiners to leave, does not allow joiners to talk back, cannot keep their camp clean and healthy, cannot support older or weaker members, brutally attacks clans that have not been anywhere near them, and controls a cat by threatening to harm his mate and kits. Until things get so bad that the same exact cats who praised and preached for this Kin are so desperate to escape that they are drowned in the process.
These apprentices may have been upset with the code, but to really support the Kin? How sick do you have to be to continue to support them? Rowanstar really was not that bad of a leader at all! In fact, he's one of Shadowclan's most morally and code-bound and honorable leaders in all of the leaders we've seen from them. Rowanstar's leadership and loyalty and care for such an awful bunch of brats astounds me. I'm amazed that he cared so much for them that he not only forgave them, but he willingly gave up leadership without a fight or without anger and abuse to answer their cries for a better leader, which he gave them in Leafstar and ugh, Tigerstar I guess.
Needletail is selfish, she's so quick to blame everyone but herself that it's sickening. The amount of selfishness in Shadowclan's apprentices and warriors was what caused the downfall. Rowanstar was no different, and Rowanstar couldn't have done anything to control them unless he physically abused them, which he didn't once! Not once did he raise a paw to his clanmates and force them into submission.
The Kin is abusive, disgusting and possibly the most evil aspect of this series besides Brokenstar and the DF, but even then, The Kin clearly were considering abusing kits too!
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2018 16:49:29 GMT -5
Needletail has no excuse. She knew Darktail was evil before the Kin even arrived at the lake, and still decided to join him. Despite all of the problems within the Clans, there is still no good reason to betray your Clan to live like a bloodthirsty rogue with no regard for others. If a cat doesn't want to obide by the warrior code and live a morally good life, they need to just leave instead of blaming everyone else for their unhappiness and trying to bring everyone down with them.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2018 17:04:12 GMT -5
Until the kin slaughters, drowns, abuses and forces loyalty from their members, does not allow joiners to leave, does not allow joiners to talk back, cannot keep their camp clean and healthy, cannot support older or weaker members, brutally attacks clans that have not been anywhere near them, and controls a cat by threatening to harm his mate and kits. Until things get so bad that the same exact cats who praised and preached for this Kin are so desperate to escape that they are drowned in the process. These apprentices may have been upset with the code, but to really support the Kin? How sick do you have to be to continue to support them? Rowanstar really was not that bad of a leader at all! In fact, he's one of Shadowclan's most morally and code-bound and honorable leaders in all of the leaders we've seen from them. Rowanstar's leadership and loyalty and care for such an awful bunch of brats astounds me. I'm amazed that he cared so much for them that he not only forgave them, but he willingly gave up leadership without a fight or without anger and abuse to answer their cries for a better leader, which he gave them in Leafstar and ugh, Tigerstar I guess. Needletail is selfish, she's so quick to blame everyone but herself that it's sickening. The amount of selfishness in Shadowclan's apprentices and warriors was what caused the downfall. Rowanstar was no different, and Rowanstar couldn't have done anything to control them unless he physically abused them, which he didn't once! Not once did he raise a paw to his clanmates and force them into submission. The Kin is abusive, disgusting and possibly the most evil aspect of this series besides Brokenstar and the DF, but even then, The Kin clearly were considering abusing kits too! You've misunderstood my point. I'm talking about the Shadowclan apprentices (desides from Needletail) who were the first to defect to the Kin. This is before they discovered what the Kin were trully like. I'm just pointing out cats leaving the Clans to join a group, they generally think is better, isn't necessarily a bad thing. They have no choice to be born into the Clans. So why does that mean they have to atomically be loyal to them? Loyalty/respect should be something that earned from those incharge. |
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Post by Moonblazer on May 9, 2018 17:32:30 GMT -5
Until the kin slaughters, drowns, abuses and forces loyalty from their members, does not allow joiners to leave, does not allow joiners to talk back, cannot keep their camp clean and healthy, cannot support older or weaker members, brutally attacks clans that have not been anywhere near them, and controls a cat by threatening to harm his mate and kits. Until things get so bad that the same exact cats who praised and preached for this Kin are so desperate to escape that they are drowned in the process. These apprentices may have been upset with the code, but to really support the Kin? How sick do you have to be to continue to support them? Rowanstar really was not that bad of a leader at all! In fact, he's one of Shadowclan's most morally and code-bound and honorable leaders in all of the leaders we've seen from them. Rowanstar's leadership and loyalty and care for such an awful bunch of brats astounds me. I'm amazed that he cared so much for them that he not only forgave them, but he willingly gave up leadership without a fight or without anger and abuse to answer their cries for a better leader, which he gave them in Leafstar and ugh, Tigerstar I guess. Needletail is selfish, she's so quick to blame everyone but herself that it's sickening. The amount of selfishness in Shadowclan's apprentices and warriors was what caused the downfall. Rowanstar was no different, and Rowanstar couldn't have done anything to control them unless he physically abused them, which he didn't once! Not once did he raise a paw to his clanmates and force them into submission. The Kin is abusive, disgusting and possibly the most evil aspect of this series besides Brokenstar and the DF, but even then, The Kin clearly were considering abusing kits too! You've misunderstood my point. I'm talking about the Shadowclan apprentices (desides from Needletail) who were the first to defect to the Kin. This is before they discovered what the Kin were trully like. I'm just pointing out cats leaving the Clans to join a group, they generally think is better, isn't necessarily a bad thing. They have no choice to be born into the Clans. So why does that mean they have to atomically be loyal to them? Loyalty/respect should be something that earned from those incharge. Then why choose to stay with a group that came to the clans? Did they truly think the rouges could change all 4 clans? I have no problem with them defecting and leaving the clans for good to find a better place or home, but the fact that many of them willingly attacked their own clanmates and other clans that did nothing to provoke invasion, and that Needletail willingly joined a cat she knew was literally evil and willing to muder others, that's the problem. Also, what kind of respect are these apprentices expecting? For the clan to nod their heads because the apprentices want to do whatever they want and attack whomever they think will make Shadowclan "feared" again? Not to mention, these whining apprentices don't know the kind of traumatic suffering cats like Rowanstar and Tawnypelt and Littlecloud had to go through. Leadership under Brokenstar and Tigerstar, illnesses that wiped out alot of the clan, the murder and abuse of clan kits, they think they're not respected? Try Littlecloud, who was always ignored by Blackstar and other leaders, who died in a filthy nest that the appprentices didn't even feel like cleaning. Try Tawnypelt, who to this day is constantly shot down and disrespected by cats of many clans! Try Rowanstar himself, who was told to his face that the cat who brutally drowned his daughter and who his clanmates abandoned him for was a better leader and more respected. Why do these apprentices expect respect when they've done absolutely nothing to earn it? There's a difference between defecting with genuine justification and whining and complaining because you don't get everything you want. Heck, Shadowclan was doing great after the horrible leaders they've had to go through. I was even so excited for Rowanstar and a better Shadowclan because he was the only Shadowclan leader besides Nightstar in the present time series that had not brutally killed another cat, had not stomped all over the code, he was not a main character, and he had all 9 lives. Instead I got this mess of bratty apprentices and warriors who destroyed their own clan and drove probably the most morally sane and honorable leader they've had in years to give up his own rank and step down. That's sad. That makes my heart hurt because if Shadowclan truly was that bad to stay in, I'd understand the defecting. But this era of Shadowclan was the most stable and honorable era in nearly all the series and it wasn't good enough for them. |
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Post by lollycat on May 9, 2018 19:20:34 GMT -5
"They have no choice to be born into the Clans. So why does that mean they have to atomically be loyal to them? Loyalty/respect should be something that earned from those incharge." How about the loyalty that their mothers and fathers gave to the apprentices by taking care of them, teaching them, and loving them. The clan had already proved their loyalty to the apprentices but the apprentices did not return that loyalty or love to the clan. Their choices almost destroyed the clan and other clans. Their actions had very bad reactions. Rowanstar died (he had given up all of his lives at this point) trying to save his clan and that is why you have Tigerheart/star. Needletail saw how the kin were when they went to find Skyclan, She was disrespect back then because she though that she was above the law. Read more: wcrpforums.com/thread/57342/shadowclan-apprentices-kin#ixzz5F3JQM1lg |
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on May 9, 2018 19:55:59 GMT -5
Not to mention, these whining apprentices don't know the kind of traumatic suffering cats like Rowanstar and Tawnypelt and Littlecloud had to go through. Leadership under Brokenstar and Tigerstar, illnesses that wiped out alot of the clan, the murder and abuse of clan kits, they think they're not respected? Try Littlecloud, who was always ignored by Blackstar and other leaders, who died in a filthy nest that the appprentices didn't even feel like cleaning. Try Tawnypelt, who to this day is constantly shot down and disrespected by cats of many clans! Try Rowanstar himself, who was told to his face that the cat who brutally drowned his daughter and who his clanmates abandoned him for was a better leader and more respected. Now you've made my heart hurt. Holy crap, that bit with Littlecloud (and the others, but my mind's on him right now)...I don't know why I didn't even think about it in detail, but that's exactly what happened to him. He didn't deserve that at all. |
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Post by Moonblazer on May 9, 2018 20:20:07 GMT -5
Not to mention, these whining apprentices don't know the kind of traumatic suffering cats like Rowanstar and Tawnypelt and Littlecloud had to go through. Leadership under Brokenstar and Tigerstar, illnesses that wiped out alot of the clan, the murder and abuse of clan kits, they think they're not respected? Try Littlecloud, who was always ignored by Blackstar and other leaders, who died in a filthy nest that the appprentices didn't even feel like cleaning. Try Tawnypelt, who to this day is constantly shot down and disrespected by cats of many clans! Try Rowanstar himself, who was told to his face that the cat who brutally drowned his daughter and who his clanmates abandoned him for was a better leader and more respected. Now you've made my heart hurt. Holy crap, that bit with Littlecloud (and the others, but my mind's on him right now)...I don't know why I didn't even think about it in detail, but that's exactly what happened to him. He didn't deserve that at all. Right? It actually made me cry, this simple and common death from illness and age, because I had to read how my all time favorite cat died in a ratty nest with no apprentice and only Dawnpelt caring for him because the apprentices were too busy complaining about everything. Here's a cat who was kind, happy in his rank, made a change and brought his clan the cure Cinderpelt gave him to cure Shadowclan of a horrible illness, who lost his apprentice to drowning, who was literally ignored by his leaders when he tried to keep them calm and on track, who's best friend was killed by badgers, yet who still kept his kindness and fairness and faith in himself. Like, I don't think you guys understand just how much I LOVE this cat. It's been years and years since I started reading Warriors and that number one character spot from the moment we were introduced to him, has been Littlecloud. It still is, and I genuinely can't think of another cat that comes close. Ivypool and Berrynose are amazing, but compared to how much I value Littlecloud? Not even close. So reading his death struck me so raw. It hurt. To see your favorite character die alone in a ratty nest, sick and old and his clan falling apart, god, that hurt. I commend the writers actually, for just how emotional that death was for me. |
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