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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on May 10, 2018 13:05:17 GMT -5
But that doesn't change the fact Bramblestar hesitated in not killing Firestar. Like yeah, he didn't do it, but he considered it for a moment. I also remember someone posting that Bramblestar didn't kill Firestar because ThunderClan still needed him, not because it was wrong to kill, so that's something to consider.
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Bisexual
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on May 10, 2018 13:09:19 GMT -5
Everyone ran straight down Squirrelflight's throat for being dishonest the moment it came to light, but it seems people are just now agreeing Bramblestar shouldn't have been that way when he has his own secrets. It included Squirrelflight the moment Bramblestar considered murdering her father. Not going to change my mind. If any cat is wrong in the relationship and doesn't deserve the other, it's Bramblestar. Squirrelflight never deserved the trash reaction she got. Bramblestar was only protecting his hide, unlike his mate, who was lied to and pretty much forced into it by her sister and StarClan. Disagree with me, okay, that's fine, but he doesn't deserve what he got whatsoever.
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Post by Ligerfrost on May 10, 2018 13:17:25 GMT -5
The moment he saw Firestar trapped he didn't hesitate he instantly went to help his leader. He listened to his brothers words and consider it but The moment he looked back at Firestar he was fighting to save his leader once more. It didn't matter to me that he was tempted because everyone gets tempted by something we wouldn't have had the whole Dark Forest arc at all if no one did. What matter to me was that even after being tempted he turned it down and chose to do what was right. He wasn't blindly following Firestar or the warrior code, he let himself listen to his brother and it was a big step in him knowing who he was and wasn't it wasmhim realizing that he wanted to earn his leadership through his own merit and not through bloodshed.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on May 10, 2018 16:22:26 GMT -5
Oh so being tempted to kill your leader is okay. Like that's not treasonous thinking. I'm honestly starting to get why Kate hates Bramblestar so much.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 10, 2018 17:07:53 GMT -5
Anyways, here's the entire scene cause lol. Make of it what you will. He dived out of the ferns and pelted along the shore in the direction of the cry. It came again, closer but fainter, a horrible choking sound. Brambleclaw leaped across the roots of a tree and found himself face-to-face with Firestar. The ThunderClan leader lay on his side on a narrow path between close-growing ferns. His limbs jerked feebly and his eyes gazed at nothing. Foam flecked his muzzle. Around his neck, half buried in his flame-colored fur, was a thin, shiny tendril, leading to a stick driven into the earth. Firestar was caught in a fox trap!
Brambleclaw leaped forward to help him, only to be thrust aside by Hawkfrost’s powerful shoulder. “Mousebrain!” the RiverClan warrior hissed. “This is your chance, Brambleclaw. You’re deputy now. If Firestar dies, you’ll be Clan leader.”
Brambleclaw stared at him in astonishment. What is he telling me to do? Then he realized that Firestar was trying to speak. “Birchpaw told me … Blackstar waiting on our territory … Had to come alone …”
Hawkfrost’s eyes gleamed with triumph as he padded across to Firestar and bent down to whisper in his ear. “But Blackstar isn’t here. We are. You’re a fool, Firestar. You were too easy to trap.” Brambleclaw felt the ground dip beneath his paws; he couldn’t grasp the details, only that the absence of Blackstar, and the ShadowClan scent on Hawkfrost, added up to something murderously evil.
“You did this,” he said to his half brother “You arranged for Firestar to be here, where there was a fox trap waiting.”
“Of course.” Hawkfrost sounded scornful. “I did it for you.” Firestar’s sides heaved as he fought for breath. His gaze flickered from Hawkfrost to Brambleclaw and back again. Brambleclaw could see that unless he loosened the wire right away, his leader would lose a life—perhaps more. Hawkfrost stepped back. “The brave ThunderClan leader,” he sneered. “Not so powerful now, are you? Come on, Brambleclaw, finish him off.”
Brambleclaw felt as though his paws were frozen to the bare earth. Every hair on his pelt stood on end as he heard Tigerstar whispering in his ear: Kill him. No cat will know. You can be Clan leader. You can have everything you have ever wanted. He staggered as Hawkfrost gave him a vicious nudge, his tail lashing angrily. “What are you waiting for? This is what we have wanted all along, remember? Kill him now!”
Brambleclaw stared down at his Clan leader. He still couldn’t move. He knew that all he had to do was tighten the noose around Firestar’s neck, and he would lose his remaining six lives at once. His gaze met Firestar’s, where his leader lay helpless in front of him. But there was no pleading in the green eyes, only a fierce, proud question: What will you do, Brambleclaw? It’s your choice.
Brambleclaw thought of how Firestar and Tigerstar had confronted each other, time after time. Each hated the other for what they stood for, the plans they had for their Clan. But Firestar had never needed to fight Tigerstar to the death. Scourge, the vicious leader of BloodClan, whom Tigerstar himself had invited into the forest, had killed him with a single blow. This time it looked as though Tigerstar would win. Brambleclaw was aware of his father’s spirit close beside him, urging him on.
Fool! Kill him now! Closing his eyes, Brambleclaw remembered the clearing at Fourtrees, the blood pouring out onto the grass as Tigerstar lost all nine lives at once. He saw Scourge looking down at his twitching body with cold triumph. Was that what Hawkfrost and Tigerstar wanted him to become?
“Six lives …” he murmured. Six lives stood between him and the leadership of ThunderClan.
“That’s right,” Hawkfrost hissed. “This is our chance to take revenge on Firestar for our father’s death. He could have tried to stop Scourge, but he just stood there and watched Tigerstar die, over and over and over.”
Revenge? Brambleclaw wrenched his gaze from Firestar to stare at his half brother. This wasn’t about revenge. He knew very well that Tigerstar had willingly set his own paws on the path that led to his violent death. All I want is to lead my Clan, he thought. But not like this. His loyalty was not to ThunderClan alone, but to Firestar too—the cat who had mentored him, accepted him in spite of his father, and in the end had trusted him enough to make him Clan deputy. He had thought that loyalty to the Clan didn’t necessarily mean loyalty to the Clan leader. That wasn’t true. Firestar was ThunderClan.
“No,” he meowed to Hawkfrost, amazed to hear his voice come out strong and steady. “I won’t do it.” He recalled how Brook and Squirrelflight had freed Berrykit when the kit caught his tail in a fox trap. Leaping over to Firestar’s side, he began scrabbling in the earth, trying to dig up the stick that held the tendril taut around his leader’s neck. “Keep still, Firestar,” he panted as the earth flew. “I’ll have you out of this in a heartbeat.” A yowl of protest battered his ears; he couldn’t be sure whether it came from Hawkfrost or from the vengeful spirit of Tigerstar. Hawkfrost sprang at him, slamming into his side and knocking him off his paws. Brambleclaw was pinned under him.
Hawkfrost’s ice-blue eyes glared into his. “Coward!” Hawkfrost snarled. “Keep away and I’ll kill him myself if I have to.”
Never! Brambleclaw thrust his hind paws hard into Hawkfrost’s belly, throwing him off. While his half brother lay winded, he hurled himself at the stick again, grabbing it in his jaws. His earlier digging had loosened it; now it came free altogether, and the tendril around Firestar’s neck slackened. He heard his Clan leader draw a single gasping breath. A fierce snarl behind him made him spin around to see Hawkfrost springing at him. Brambleclaw dodged to one side, letting the stick fall. He felt the sting of Hawkfrost’s claws raking through his fur as his half brother leaped past him. Spinning around, Brambleclaw faced Hawkfrost again, and saw a cold flame in the RiverClan cat’s ice-blue eyes.
“Traitor!” Hawkfrost spat. “You’re a traitor to everything our father planned! You were never strong enough to be like him.”
“I don’t want to be like him,” Brambleclaw retorted.
“Then you’re a fool,” Hawkfrost sneered. “And stupid too. You never realized that this was a test. It was Tigerstar’s idea. He said that if you really deserved power, you would do anything to get it.”
“Even kill my Clan leader?”
“Especially that. But you’re as weak as Tigerstar feared. We have great plans for the forest, he and I, and you could have been part of them. But we don’t need you.” Brambleclaw understood exactly what his half brother was saying. He knew too much. Hawkfrost could not let him or Firestar live now; that must have been part of his plan from the beginning. He took a step toward Hawkfrost.
“Go back to RiverClan. You’re my brother. I don’t want to hurt you.”
“Because you’re weak,” Hawkfrost taunted him. “You care more for kin than for power. But I don’t.” He leaped for Brambleclaw again, carrying him off his paws and pinning him down. His ice-blue eyes blazed close to Brambleclaw’s own. Brambleclaw felt sharp claws digging deep into his fur and saw teeth snapping at his throat. He struggled vainly to rake Hawkfrost’s belly with his hind paws, feeling his own death a heartbeat away. To save himself, to save Firestar and ThunderClan, there was only one thing he could do. Writhing from side to side, he spotted the stick from the fox trap lying half under his shoulder. He strained his neck and managed to grab it in his teeth. As Hawkfrost lunged down toward him he heaved the stick around and felt the sharpened end sink deep into Hawkfrost’s throat.
Hawkfrost stiffened with a horrible gurgling sound, then fell limp and heavy on Brambleclaw’s chest. Shocked, Brambleclaw struggled free of his half brother’s body and let go of the stick. It fell to the ground, leaving a ragged wound in Hawkfrost’s throat. Scarlet blood splashed onto the earth, faster and faster until it started to spill down toward the lakeshore.
“Hawkfrost!” Brambleclaw gasped. “I … I didn’t want this.” Amazingly, his half brother pushed himself to his paws and staggered toward him. Brambleclaw braced himself, not knowing whether to expect another attack or an appeal for help.
“Fool!” Hawkfrost rasped; the effort of speaking made the blood pour even faster from his terrible wound. “Do you think I did this alone? Do you think you’re safe within your own Clan?” He coughed, spitting out clots of blood, and added, “Think again!”
“What?” Brambleclaw took a step toward him, his forepaws splashing in the scarlet pool. Was Hawkfrost accusing a ThunderClan warrior of leading Firestar into this trap? “What do you mean? Tell me, Hawkfrost! Who do you mean?” But the cold fire was leaving Hawkfrost’s eyes.
He turned away from Brambleclaw, staggered a few paces through the ferns, and collapsed beside the lake, his haunches trailing in the water. Tiny waves rippled over his body, and his blood spread out in a scarlet cloud. Brambleclaw gazed down at him. There was so much more that he needed to know—but Hawkfrost was dead. For a moment, his half brother’s voice echoed softly in his ears: We will meet again, my brother. This is not over yet. “Brambleclaw.”
Firestar still lay on his side, his neck fur stained with blood from his own wound. Weak as he was, his gaze was unwavering as he looked at Brambleclaw. “Firestar—” Brambleclaw broke off. There was nothing that he could say. Firestar had seen his own deputy struggling with the temptation to kill him. He would never be able to trust Brambleclaw again. How could he be ThunderClan’s deputy now? He stood with bowed head and waited for the words that would send him into exile.
“Brambleclaw, you did well.” Brambleclaw looked up, staring at his leader in astonishment. “Your path has been hard, harder than most,” Firestar rasped. “But you fought a great battle here, and you won. You are a worthy deputy of ThunderClan.” His voice quavered on the last few words. Exhausted, he let his head fall again and closed his eyes. Brambleclaw stood looking down at him, his half brother’s blood sticky on his paws and the reek of it in his nostrils. I won, he thought. But what will my father do to me now?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 10, 2018 17:12:23 GMT -5
My personal opinion: The books even pointed out how wrong Bramblestar was for hesitating and even considering those said temptations for a moment. He was literally there with his brother, considering killing Firestar and taking his last 5 lives for a moment. And I find that just as disturbing as when Lionblaze had dreams of Heathertail dying and finding satisfaction from it. It doesn't matter if they choose the right choice in the end, that doesn't immediately invalidate the fact that they considered it as a possibility. Bramblestar is just lucky that Firestar is such a forgiving cat, just like how everyone doubt that Leafpool would have been exiled if he had punished her instead, I doubt Firestar would have exiled Bramble. But I still believed Bramble didn't deserve the deputy position, let alone Squirrelflight's affection considering Firestar is her father.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 17:19:57 GMT -5
I guess I understand why Firestar still trusted Bramble for making the right choice, but I mean, he was almost killed right then and there. Like Maple and Rainleaf said, Bramble still hesitated. Wasn't that entire essay a page long in the books? If it took Bramble that long to make his choice then that's pretty messed up imo...
I know he's a good cat at heart but just the thought of him even considering it, bothers me. He didn't even think how this would affect Squirrelflight if he killed Fire, or the Clan. He's being stupid about this.. smh. He was only thinking of himself. I'm glad he made the right choice in the end , but the fact that it took him so long to make his choice bothers me.. I don't blame Leafpool for getting such bad vibes about this, Bramble was foolish.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on May 10, 2018 17:21:54 GMT -5
My personal opinion: The books even pointed out how wrong Bramblestar was for hesitating and even considering those said temptations for a moment. He was literally there with his brother, considering killing Firestar and taking his last 5 lives for a moment. And I find that just as disturbing as when Lionblaze had dreams of Heathertail dying and finding satisfaction from it. It doesn't matter if they choose the right choice in the end, that doesn't immediately invalidate the fact that they considered it as a possibility. Bramblestar is just lucky that Firestar is such a forgiving cat, just like how everyone doubt that Leafpool would have been exiled if he had punished her instead, I doubt Firestar would have exiled Bramble. But I still believed Bramble didn't deserve the deputy position, let alone Squirrelflight's affection considering Firestar is her father. Exactly. Are we really saying "Kudos for not killing your leader! ...Even though you were spending moons with your hitler father, who literally has a history of murdering cats from your Clan and trying to get them all slaughtered in the worst way possible. But kudos anyway!" That's basic loyalty to the Clan. Why should we praise that? He shouldn't have been hanging out with Hawkfrost anyway, if you think about it. If their meetings were innocent, I'd be more understanding, but they weren't. God, so many cats are lucky Firestar is nice (too nice, imo). I would have more respect for Bramblestar if he had stepped down from deputy on his own.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 10, 2018 17:48:15 GMT -5
Mayflower, and to add onto that, it kind of goes against Bramblestar's arc. It'd be one thing if he didn't know about Tigerstar's crimes, but that isn't the case. He even rejected Tigerstar when the latter offered him to join TigerClan like Tawnypaw did, and was determined to prove his loyalty to ThunderClan. Now the roles are flipped, and it's irritating. The fact that he hesitated doesn't make any sense, let alone training with Tigerstar at all.
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Post by Ligerfrost on May 10, 2018 17:53:26 GMT -5
Even after reading the scene I still thing everyone is making a big deal out of nothing. TIgerstar was the voiced telling him to kill Firestar the one who called him a fool. So he has two voices urging him and trying to manipulate him to do what they want. Again that goes back to they are trying to tempt him and he chooses to ignore them.
And what about Firestar being forgiving? Firestar has done nothing but judge Bramblestar since he was born. If anything this event cemented his trust in Bramblestar. FIrestar's greatest worry was always that Brambleclaw would choose his father's ambition over the Clan. FIrestar didn't beg for his life or curse Brambleclaw out he looked him in the eye and expected him to make a choice. FIrestar has always expected Bramblestar to make a choice. Even after The Darkest Hour Firestar still didn't trust Bramblestar as shown by his reaction to the Cinderpelt's omen about the fire and tiger. Firestar didn't let Brambleclaw keep his deputy position because he was forgiving, he let him remain because Firestar finally believed that Bramblestar would not betray ThunderClan.
If you keep reading Firestar doesn't tell his daughters that Bramblestar hesitated to save him. He tells them Brambleclaw saved him.
And notice there is no anger in Firestar's voice he doesn't say he is disappointed in Brambleclaw hesitating and he didn't simply praise Brambleclaw for killing his brother. He knew that Brambleclaw always has Tigerstar's legacy following him and that Tigerstar will always have some sort of hold on him. He just never knew if Brambleclaw could overcome that hold and he did. that is Why FIrestar was proud of him that is why he kept him as his deputy.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 10, 2018 18:40:10 GMT -5
Meanwhile Tawnypelt: Not to mention: Reaching the clearing, he came to an abrupt halt in the shadow of a thorn tree. His father was sitting on the rock in the center, his head bent to speak to a slender tortoiseshell warrior.
Tawnypelt! What’s she doing here?
Curiosity sank its claws into his heart. With his belly fur brushing the ground, he crept around the clearing until he could get closer to the rock in the shelter of a clump of long grass. With his ears pricked, he could just make out the other cats’ voices. “I’ve told you before,” Tawnypelt snapped. “I don’t want any part of your ambitions. I have my own plans.” Brambleclaw tensed. No cat spoke like that to Tigerstar! But the massive tabby didn’t seem angry. His tone was pleased as he replied, “You have my spirit, Tawnypelt, and you’re a brave warrior. But there are times when spirit becomes foolishness. Don’t throw away what I can offer you. I can make you a leader.”
“Fox dung!” Tawnypelt snarled. “I’m a loyal ShadowClan cat. If I’m ever made deputy or leader it will be because I have earned it myself—and because my Clanmates and StarClan wish it. You’re twisting the warrior code to get what you want, just like you did when you were alive.” A growl rumbled in Tigerstar’s throat. Brambleclaw caught the gleam of unsheathed claws and his heart pounded in fear for his sister. But Tawnypelt held her head high.
“You don’t frighten me,” she meowed calmly. “And I don’t want anything you can give me.” Spinning around, she stalked across the clearing and straight into the clump where Brambleclaw crouched in hiding. She let out a hiss of surprise. “What are you doing here?”
“I could ask you the same thing,” Brambleclaw retorted, peering through the grass stems to make sure Tigerstar hadn’t spotted him. To his relief, the huge tabby had turned away.
Tawnypelt’s eyes were cold as she gazed at her brother. “You’ve been here before, haven’t you?” she meowed. “You think he can give you power. Have you got thistledown for brains? You know what he did when he was alive.” “That was then.” Brambleclaw twitched his ears uncomfortably. “Now he’s just helping us to become good warriors—me and Hawkfrost. We train together. Tigerstar teaches us stuff.”
“I bet he does!” Tawnypelt let out a snort of contempt. “Brambleclaw, think, will you? You’re an amazing cat already; you’re brave and loyal and you have tremendous warrior skills. Why do you need Tigerstar?” Without giving her brother a chance to reply, she swept on. “We’ve spent a long time trying to break free of our father’s legacy. When we were kits in ThunderClan, most cats didn’t trust us. Our Clan leader didn’t trust us, for StarClan’s sake! That’s why I left to join ShadowClan. Tigerstar welcomed me, but then I saw what his leadership was like, and I was glad when Scourge killed him! I don’t want any part of his blood. I’ve survived just fine without him, and so have you.”
“Maybe,” Brambleclaw mewed defensively. “But he died before I had a chance to know him. Maybe this is my chance now.” His sister’s eyes narrowed.
“That’s not what’s happening here and you know it.” She let out a sigh, part weariness, part exasperation. “Brambleclaw, I think you’d make a fantastic leader. But only if you go about it the right way.” She touched her nose to his ear in farewell. Her voice was more affectionate as she added, “Think about it, mousebrain.” Brambleclaw watched her stalk away. He wondered if Tigerstar had summoned his other daughter Mothwing to meet him here. He doubted it; Mothwing was a medicine cat, and all her dreams would be spent with StarClan. Besides, medicine cats couldn’t lead their Clans; their paws were set on another path.
Part of Brambleclaw wanted to listen to Tawnypelt. He knew Squirrelflight would say the same thing, if she knew about these meetings. But there was nothing wrong with accepting his father’s help, he argued with himself; every warrior thought about leading their Clan one day. And if StarClan approved of his relationship with Squirrelflight, surely that meant they knew about his ambitions as well? He crushed down the small voice of his conscience and stepped out into the clearing to greet Tigerstar.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 10, 2018 18:41:25 GMT -5
Tawnypelt > Bramblestar
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on May 10, 2018 18:52:41 GMT -5
Bramblestar hesitated. He let Firestar lie. If Hollyleaf gets hate for letting Bramblestar lie for her, then so should Bramblestar. He wasn't innocent. He didn't save Firestar out of thinking "oh this is wrong."
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Post by Ligerfrost on May 10, 2018 18:56:16 GMT -5
No one said Bramblestar was perfect. Or that he didn't make dumb choices however I don't feel that he Tawnypelt should be compared to each other. Tawnypelt got to see what her father was really like while he was still alive. She left THunderClan behind all together and you could tell in the Darkest Hour she regretted trusting Tigerstar, but she didn't regret leaving ThunderClan. She too made a choice and choose the one that was best for her. Brambleclaw had only met his father twice. Once as a kit with Tanwypelt and the second time was the day his father died in front of him. He stood up to Tigerstar then but he also watched him die in the most horrific way possible and he and Firestar pitied TIgerstar's death. Brambleclaw wanted to believe Tigerstar was helping him and that he wasn't being manipulated. He didn't leave to join ShadowCLan with TIgerstar like Tawnypelt did, he didn't get to see what she saw that gave her a firm belief that Tigerstar would never change and that his ambition would never die. Of all of Tigerstar's kits Tawnypelt knew him the best and saw him at his worst.
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Post by Brindlefern on May 10, 2018 18:57:44 GMT -5
Tawnypelt was literally the voice of reason there in that DF scene (Also she was awesome, standing up to her own tyrant father like that). Brambleclaw/star is so dumb with his "But I'm doing nothing wrong!" mindset there. Bullsh*t to that, he knew ever since Darkest Hour that it was wrong to follow KITTY HITLER of all cats, just gave me even more of a reason to dislike him in all honesty.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on May 10, 2018 19:00:30 GMT -5
There's difference between dumb choices and knowing right and wrong. Bramblestar knew better. There's no excuse for him.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on May 10, 2018 19:13:05 GMT -5
Even after reading the scene I still thing everyone is making a big deal out of nothing. TIgerstar was the voiced telling him to kill Firestar the one who called him a fool. So he has two voices urging him and trying to manipulate him to do what they want. Again that goes back to they are trying to tempt him and he chooses to ignore them. And what about Firestar being forgiving? Firestar has done nothing but judge Bramblestar since he was born. If anything this event cemented his trust in Bramblestar. FIrestar's greatest worry was always that Brambleclaw would choose his father's ambition over the Clan. FIrestar didn't beg for his life or curse Brambleclaw out he looked him in the eye and expected him to make a choice. FIrestar has always expected Bramblestar to make a choice. Even after The Darkest Hour Firestar still didn't trust Bramblestar as shown by his reaction to the Cinderpelt's omen about the fire and tiger. Firestar didn't let Brambleclaw keep his deputy position because he was forgiving, he let him remain because Firestar finally believed that Bramblestar would not betray ThunderClan. If you keep reading Firestar doesn't tell his daughters that Bramblestar hesitated to save him. He tells them Brambleclaw saved him. And notice there is no anger in Firestar's voice he doesn't say he is disappointed in Brambleclaw hesitating and he didn't simply praise Brambleclaw for killing his brother. He knew that Brambleclaw always has Tigerstar's legacy following him and that Tigerstar will always have some sort of hold on him. He just never knew if Brambleclaw could overcome that hold and he did. that is Why FIrestar was proud of him that is why he kept him as his deputy. We weren't talking about Firestar's reaction, beyond the fact that Firestar is too forgiving. We're talking about how Bramblestar's stupidity landed himself in that situation to begin with, and how disloyal he is, and how he walks on his high horse when he's keeping horrible secrets himself. The fact remains that he hesitated and considered it. He heard Tigerstar's voice, yes, but he also had his own thoughts where he realized only a few lives stood between him and leadership. He knew Tigerstar was planning to kill Firestar. He knew his father was a murderer. He knew what he was doing wasn't right. He did all of this consciously and deliberately. He likes to play as though he's stupid (the conversation with Tawnypelt, where they 'never knew their father,' that there was nothing wrong with training with Tigerstar, and he's teaching them to be good warriors), but that's a lie. Bramblestar is fully grown at this point. He knew what he was doing. And even as an apprentice, he saw what Tigerstar was like, too -- not just Tawnypelt. Tigerstar murdered Brindleface, led the dog pack to ThunderClan, had his deputy kill Stonefur, kept Feathertail, Stormfur, and Mistystar in a disgusting, rotting foxhole with plans to almost certainly kill them later, hand-picked a young apprentice (Gorsepaw) and murdered him in plain sight of the apprentice's Clanmates to send a message to Firestar, and brought BloodClan to the forest...and that's just the stuff I remember. Bramblestar was an apprentice during all of this, if I remember correctly, with a full scope of knowing what was going on. All of ThunderClan knew, even if the other Clans didn't know until it was too late and Tigerstar had turned his sights on them, too. Literally just before Tigerstar died, he called Bramblestar a fool for siding with ThunderClan, and told his son that he'd die with the rest of the fools. Bramblestar spat on his dead Clanmates' memory for even considering entertaining any time spent with Tigerstar, much less going along with plans of murder. You cannot reasonably say that Bramblestar didn't know his father.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 10, 2018 19:18:25 GMT -5
Bramblestar hesitated. He let Firestar lie. If Hollyleaf gets hate for letting Bramblestar lie for her, then so should Bramblestar. He wasn't innocent. He didn't save Firestar out of thinking "oh this is wrong." This isn't even the first time they've done this. They lied about Onestar's "ceremony" too, withholding information about it, and even Bramblestar felt guilty about it for a moment, knowing it was wrong of them. Honestly, Bramble is a bit cowardly and naive imo.
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Post by Ligerfrost on May 10, 2018 19:21:11 GMT -5
Exactly how did he know he was doing something wrong? Before, just like every other cat, he believed when you die you go to StarClan. He had no previous knowledge of the Dark Forest or that it was the place for the cats who were evil and would never change. His father came to him when he was the most vulnerable, when he was friendless and felt alone within his Clan. He wanted to be deputy but felt if he tried to do it he would be judged. Tigerstar approached him and made him believe he had changed his ways and wanted to help him be deputy with his own strengths. Just like all the other dark forest trainees were lured in (and they knew better too).
I'm sure every word spoken to Brambleclaw was filled with sincerity as Brambleclaw was the only kit TIgerstar truly cared about. Brambleclaw has defied him three times and he still showed nothing but prided in him. like a weirdo.
Like I said Tawnypelt knew TIgerstar the best as she is the only one who truly knew him before his death and she knew for certain he would never change. Hawkfrost didn't want him to and Mothflight never met him period. Brambleclaw believed his father was trying to help him not take advantage of him. He didn't want to believe that she was right about Tigerstar as he wanted to know his father. Once upon a time Tawnypelt wanted to know her father too. She got her wish and now Brambleclaw got to see his father the way Tawnypelt did and not through hearsay from everyone else.
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Post by Ligerfrost on May 10, 2018 19:34:10 GMT -5
Even after reading the scene I still thing everyone is making a big deal out of nothing. TIgerstar was the voiced telling him to kill Firestar the one who called him a fool. So he has two voices urging him and trying to manipulate him to do what they want. Again that goes back to they are trying to tempt him and he chooses to ignore them. And what about Firestar being forgiving? Firestar has done nothing but judge Bramblestar since he was born. If anything this event cemented his trust in Bramblestar. FIrestar's greatest worry was always that Brambleclaw would choose his father's ambition over the Clan. FIrestar didn't beg for his life or curse Brambleclaw out he looked him in the eye and expected him to make a choice. FIrestar has always expected Bramblestar to make a choice. Even after The Darkest Hour Firestar still didn't trust Bramblestar as shown by his reaction to the Cinderpelt's omen about the fire and tiger. Firestar didn't let Brambleclaw keep his deputy position because he was forgiving, he let him remain because Firestar finally believed that Bramblestar would not betray ThunderClan. If you keep reading Firestar doesn't tell his daughters that Bramblestar hesitated to save him. He tells them Brambleclaw saved him. And notice there is no anger in Firestar's voice he doesn't say he is disappointed in Brambleclaw hesitating and he didn't simply praise Brambleclaw for killing his brother. He knew that Brambleclaw always has Tigerstar's legacy following him and that Tigerstar will always have some sort of hold on him. He just never knew if Brambleclaw could overcome that hold and he did. that is Why FIrestar was proud of him that is why he kept him as his deputy. We weren't talking about Firestar's reaction, beyond the fact that Firestar is too forgiving. We're talking about how Bramblestar's stupidity landed himself in that situation to begin with, and how disloyal he is, and how he walks on his high horse when he's keeping horrible secrets himself. The fact remains that he hesitated and considered it. He heard Tigerstar's voice, yes, but he also had his own thoughts where he realized only a few lives stood between him and leadership. He knew Tigerstar was planning to kill Firestar. He knew his father was a murderer. He knew what he was doing wasn't right. He did all of this consciously and deliberately. He likes to play as though he's stupid (the conversation with Tawnypelt, where they 'never knew their father,' that there was nothing wrong with training with Tigerstar, and he's teaching them to be good warriors), but that's a lie. Bramblestar is fully grown at this point. He knew what he was doing. And even as an apprentice, he saw what Tigerstar was like, too -- not just Tawnypelt. Tigerstar murdered Brindleface, led the dog pack to ThunderClan, had his deputy kill Stonefur, kept Feathertail, Stormfur, and Mistystar in a disgusting, rotting foxhole with plans to almost certainly kill them later, hand-picked a young apprentice (Gorsepaw) and murdered him in plain sight of the apprentice's Clanmates to send a message to Firestar, and brought BloodClan to the forest...and that's just the stuff I remember. Bramblestar was an apprentice during all of this, if I remember correctly, with a full scope of knowing what was going on. All of ThunderClan knew, even if the other Clans didn't know until it was too late and Tigerstar had turned his sights on them, too. Literally just before Tigerstar died, he called Bramblestar a fool for siding with ThunderClan, and told his son that he'd die with the rest of the fools. Bramblestar spat on his dead Clanmates' memory for even considering entertaining any time spent with Tigerstar, much less going along with plans of murder. You cannot reasonably say that Bramblestar didn't know his father. Actually I can. A bunch of cats who hate him for being TIgerstar's son and treated him like a traitor since he was a kit say his father is the cause of every hardship that ever came to the Clan. His mother spoke nothing but the good side of TIgerstar. Firestar is the one who tells him the dark side a cat who has treated him like a disease. He personally has never seen his father do anything only the hearsay of all the cats who hate him for being Tigerstar's son. Tawnypelt clearly didn't believe her father as bad as her Clanmates believed him to be and figured life would be better with him. She saw that he was worse then what her Clanmates believed and while she regretted that she joined him she didn't regret leaving her Clan. I don't get why no one notices that he was trying to scare Bramblepaw over to his side. After he said he would die with THunderCLan he askes again if Bramblepaw was sure he wanted to stay in THunderClan. Even if Bramblepaw said no he still wouldn't have killed him again. Brambleclaw has defied Tigerstar THREE times ! And TIgerstar's response to third time was to purr and praise him for killing his brother a second time. TIgerstar was never going to kill him it wasn't going to happen. Brambleclaw is his first born. In TIgerstar's eyes he can do no wrong. He doesn't blame Brambleclaw for not coming to him he blames Firestar.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on May 10, 2018 19:37:24 GMT -5
It is obvious Tigerstar wouldn't go to StarClan. Bramblestar is still a pathetic coward that only focuses on himself and what would benefit him the best. He lied about Onestar because it would benefit the Clan, he lied about Hollyleaf so she'd be left alone. He doesn't deserve to be leader, or deputy. He's extremely lucky Firestar is forgiving. I personally would have banished him for his crime, it's what he deserves.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on May 10, 2018 19:40:43 GMT -5
He was literally alive during the whole TigerClan thing. Like that cannot be excused. If Goldenflower spoke good if him, Bramblestar should have dropped it. It's so stupid to give Squirrelflight hate and then say she has no right to know anything when she was pretty much forced to lie and she lied to protect him. Now who truly loves who here?
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on May 10, 2018 19:53:56 GMT -5
We weren't talking about Firestar's reaction, beyond the fact that Firestar is too forgiving. We're talking about how Bramblestar's stupidity landed himself in that situation to begin with, and how disloyal he is, and how he walks on his high horse when he's keeping horrible secrets himself. The fact remains that he hesitated and considered it. He heard Tigerstar's voice, yes, but he also had his own thoughts where he realized only a few lives stood between him and leadership. He knew Tigerstar was planning to kill Firestar. He knew his father was a murderer. He knew what he was doing wasn't right. He did all of this consciously and deliberately. He likes to play as though he's stupid (the conversation with Tawnypelt, where they 'never knew their father,' that there was nothing wrong with training with Tigerstar, and he's teaching them to be good warriors), but that's a lie. Bramblestar is fully grown at this point. He knew what he was doing. And even as an apprentice, he saw what Tigerstar was like, too -- not just Tawnypelt. Tigerstar murdered Brindleface, led the dog pack to ThunderClan, had his deputy kill Stonefur, kept Feathertail, Stormfur, and Mistystar in a disgusting, rotting foxhole with plans to almost certainly kill them later, hand-picked a young apprentice (Gorsepaw) and murdered him in plain sight of the apprentice's Clanmates to send a message to Firestar, and brought BloodClan to the forest...and that's just the stuff I remember. Bramblestar was an apprentice during all of this, if I remember correctly, with a full scope of knowing what was going on. All of ThunderClan knew, even if the other Clans didn't know until it was too late and Tigerstar had turned his sights on them, too. Literally just before Tigerstar died, he called Bramblestar a fool for siding with ThunderClan, and told his son that he'd die with the rest of the fools. Bramblestar spat on his dead Clanmates' memory for even considering entertaining any time spent with Tigerstar, much less going along with plans of murder. You cannot reasonably say that Bramblestar didn't know his father. Actually I can. A bunch of cats who hate him for being TIgerstar's son and treated him like a traitor since he was a kit say his father is the cause of every hardship that ever came to the Clan. His mother spoke nothing but the good side of TIgerstar. Firestar is the one who tells him the dark side a cat who has treated him like a disease. He personally has never seen his father do anything only the hearsay of all the cats who hate him for being Tigerstar's son. Tawnypelt clearly didn't believe her father as bad as her Clanmates believed him to be and figured life would be better with him. She saw that he was worse then what her Clanmates believed and while she regretted that she joined him she didn't regret leaving her Clan. I don't get why no one notices that he was trying to scare Bramblepaw over to his side. After he said he would die with THunderCLan he askes again if Bramblepaw was sure he wanted to stay in THunderClan. Even if Bramblepaw said no he still wouldn't have killed him again. Brambleclaw has defied Tigerstar THREE times ! And TIgerstar's response to third time was to purr and praise him for killing his brother a second time. TIgerstar was never going to kill him it wasn't going to happen. Brambleclaw is his first born. In TIgerstar's eyes he can do no wrong. He doesn't blame Brambleclaw for not coming to him he blames Firestar. So...did all these ThunderClan cats show up dead with Tigerstar's scent on them out of nowhere? Do you really think he was under the impression that all of his Clanmates were lying to him just for fun so they had a punching bag for when things got rough and they needed someone to blame? They had someone to blame: Tigerstar. During dreams, Bramblestar even completely acknowledged what Tigerstar had done, and that's why he got defensive when Tawnypelt called him out on it. It's not like he wasn't aware or wasn't told, and didn't know it, too. He wasn't a kit/child anymore. It doesn't matter if it was just for intimidation. You tell your son "You'll die with these other idiots for being loyal," then I hope to god that your son takes that into consideration when you come into his dreams later and persuade him to murder his leader and take over the Clans.
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Post by Ligerfrost on May 10, 2018 20:23:21 GMT -5
I curious as to where you see in my statement that I said his Clanmates lied to him. I pointed out that he personally never saw how bad his father was with his own eyes. The cat he met as a kit wasn't a tyrant he was a warm and doting cat who didn't show an ounce of aggression, a cat who behaved civilly with his former CLanmates. He didn't see a tyrant. the only cat he knew for sure that his father killed was Brindleface (if he knew at all because Darkstripe was trying to lead him and Tawnypelt away) Most of the terrible things Tigerstar did he did before he was born or as a young kit when he was still shielded by his mother. ANd it seems like everyone is deliberately not reading everything I type. I never said he never knew his father did bad things or hurt other cats. I said he never saw the cat Tawnypelt saw. She is the only one who LIVED WITH HIM! Brambleclaw only met him twice and didn't see how manipulative or just how ambitious his father really was. Tawnypelt was able to shake Tigerstar's manipulation off because she got to see her father unfiltered, and knew from that experience he would never change and that he was better off dead. Brambleclaw's only negative experience with his father was the day his father died. And he pitied his father's death. He said regardless of what his father had done he didn't believe he deserved that kind of death. Again because unlike his sister he never truly experienced his father, Tawnypelt admitted she was glad Scourge killed him. Which is why he felt that he might be capable of change unlike Tawnypelt who knew better after living with him.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on May 10, 2018 20:45:09 GMT -5
I curious as to where you see in my statement that I said his Clanmates lied to him. I pointed out that he personally never saw how bad his father was with his own eyes. The cat he met as a kit wasn't a tyrant he was a warm and doting cat who didn't show an ounce of aggression, a cat who behaved civilly with his former CLanmates. He didn't see a tyrant. the only cat he knew for sure that his father killed was Brindleface (if he knew at all because Darkstripe was trying to lead him and Tawnypelt away) Most of the terrible things Tigerstar did he did before he was born or as a young kit when he was still shielded by his mother. ANd it seems like everyone is deliberately not reading everything I type. I never said he never knew his father did bad things or hurt other cats. I said he never saw the cat Tawnypelt saw. She is the only one who LIVED WITH HIM! Brambleclaw only met him twice and didn't see how manipulative or just how ambitious his father really was. Tawnypelt was able to shake Tigerstar's manipulation off because she got to see her father unfiltered, and knew from that experience he would never change and that he was better off dead. Brambleclaw's only negative experience with his father was the day his father died. And he pitied his father's death. He said regardless of what his father had done he didn't believe he deserved that kind of death. Again because unlike his sister he never truly experienced his father, Tawnypelt admitted she was glad Scourge killed him. Which is why he felt that he might be capable of change unlike Tawnypelt who knew better after living with him. You said it was all hearsay, which means rumors/gossip, which is usually connected with lies. That's on me for misunderstanding. After he became an apprentice, nobody shielded him. Goldenflower did, which she says herself, but after that, all the filters were gone because it was pretty much impossible not to see it, since that's when Tigerstar really began throwing plans out there and doing anything and everything to take ThunderClan down. Even if only personally seeing Brindleface's fate, the fact that Tigerstar murdered one cat so brutally -- and then what occurred from that, with the dog pack -- should've been enough to show that Tigerstar was terrible. I mean, why should he have to meet Tigerstar and experience everything firsthand like Tawnypelt -- which, I think would be a terrible way to learn anything -- when he had clear evidence left and right of everything he'd done? Even just ignoring the events in ThunderClan, there's the other Clans, too. WindClan said what Tigerstar had done to Gorsepaw. He saw Mistystar, Feathertail, and Stormfur when they stumbled into the ThunderClan camp, half-dead after they were kept in a rotting foxhole and they were just barely rescued (I also think Feathertail and Stormfur were in the apprentices' den with the rest of the TC apprentices, but I could be wrong). He went to the former TigerClan camp, where the cats were pretty much rotting away as evidence of what happened, including Bonehill. Everywhere Tigerstar went, ruins followed in his wake. Bramblestar may not have been there personally and watched all this like Firestar and a few other cats did, but Bramblestar did witness the aftermath of many of these awful things.
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Post by Ligerfrost on May 10, 2018 21:22:17 GMT -5
I curious as to where you see in my statement that I said his Clanmates lied to him. I pointed out that he personally never saw how bad his father was with his own eyes. The cat he met as a kit wasn't a tyrant he was a warm and doting cat who didn't show an ounce of aggression, a cat who behaved civilly with his former CLanmates. He didn't see a tyrant. the only cat he knew for sure that his father killed was Brindleface (if he knew at all because Darkstripe was trying to lead him and Tawnypelt away) Most of the terrible things Tigerstar did he did before he was born or as a young kit when he was still shielded by his mother. ANd it seems like everyone is deliberately not reading everything I type. I never said he never knew his father did bad things or hurt other cats. I said he never saw the cat Tawnypelt saw. She is the only one who LIVED WITH HIM! Brambleclaw only met him twice and didn't see how manipulative or just how ambitious his father really was. Tawnypelt was able to shake Tigerstar's manipulation off because she got to see her father unfiltered, and knew from that experience he would never change and that he was better off dead. Brambleclaw's only negative experience with his father was the day his father died. And he pitied his father's death. He said regardless of what his father had done he didn't believe he deserved that kind of death. Again because unlike his sister he never truly experienced his father, Tawnypelt admitted she was glad Scourge killed him. Which is why he felt that he might be capable of change unlike Tawnypelt who knew better after living with him. You said it was all hearsay, which means rumors/gossip, which is usually connected with lies. That's on me for misunderstanding. After he became an apprentice, nobody shielded him. Goldenflower did, which she says herself, but after that, all the filters were gone because it was pretty much impossible not to see it, since that's when Tigerstar really began throwing plans out there and doing anything and everything to take ThunderClan down. Even if only personally seeing Brindleface's fate, the fact that Tigerstar murdered one cat so brutally -- and then what occurred from that, with the dog pack -- should've been enough to show that Tigerstar was terrible. I mean, why should he have to meet Tigerstar and experience everything firsthand like Tawnypelt -- which, I think would be a terrible way to learn anything -- when he had clear evidence left and right of everything he'd done? Even just ignoring the events in ThunderClan, there's the other Clans, too. WindClan said what Tigerstar had done to Gorsepaw. He saw Mistystar, Feathertail, and Stormfur when they stumbled into the ThunderClan camp, half-dead after they were kept in a rotting foxhole and they were just barely rescued (I also think Feathertail and Stormfur were in the apprentices' den with the rest of the TC apprentices, but I could be wrong). He went to the former TigerClan camp, where the cats were pretty much rotting away as evidence of what happened, including Bonehill. Everywhere Tigerstar went, ruins followed in his wake. Bramblestar may not have been there personally and watched all this like Firestar and a few other cats did, but Bramblestar did witness the aftermath of many of these awful things. The main point I'm trying to make is Brambleclaw believed his father could change and Tawnypelt didn't. Which was why Tigerstar was able to lure him into his grasp. In the scene when Tawnypelt turns down Tigerstar and tells her brother off, she was able to do so without a single doubt in her head because of her personal experience she knew he would never change. Brambleclaw even back when he was apprentice knew his father was bad but didn't think he deserved to die as he did. Where as Tawnypelt said she was glad he was dead and that Scourge had killed him. The only difference in their upbringing is that Tawnypelt left and joined her father and Brambleclaw stayed in ThunderClan. From what Brambleclaw experienced from his time in THunderClan he didn't think his father had deserved the death he was given. From Tawnypelt's experience from her time in ThunderClan and with her father she felt he did deserve the death he was given and mentioned it in that quote. She knew just from living with him that he was a force to be feared and that he could never be anything but a manipulative tyrant. Bramblestar saw a cat who did a lot of horrid things but wanted to make amends and help his son be a good warrior. Tawnypelt wasn't fooled because she saw what he was really like way back then. Brambleclaw didn't, he saw his father as a bad cat, who deserved the Clans hatred but he never saw the truly ambitious and manipulative cat he really was. He didn't think he was doing anything wrong and started to question himself after Tawnypelt talks to him. And if I remember correctly after Brambleclaw is made deputy is when Tigerstar starts really showing his colors to Brambleclaw and talking of taking over the two Clans. He is greatly confused and uncomfortable. And when his brother request to meet in person (alluding to the Firestar trap) Brambleclaw planned to convince Hawkfrost that only leading RiverClan would be enough and that they shouldn't want more than to serve their own CLans as leaders. Basically he thought his father was just helping them become strong warriors to serve their Clan. Not that he was grooming them to be leaders of all the Clans. Brambleclaw believed that his father was sincere and capable of changing and wasn't planning another take over that's why he let things with his father go as far as it did. He didn't completely dismiss what Tawnypelt told him he just had a hard time believing that TIgerstar hadn't changed and wasn't helping him to make amends but to serve for his own agenda.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 10, 2018 21:24:08 GMT -5
He was literally alive during the whole TigerClan thing. Like that cannot be excused. If Goldenflower spoke good if him, Bramblestar should have dropped it. It's so stupid to give Squirrelflight hate and then say she has no right to know anything when she was pretty much forced to lie and she lied to protect him. Now who truly loves who here? "Hey, my dad was exiled from his clan for premeditated attempted murder against our leader, trying to assassinate her after killing one of the previous deputies, Redtail, his own clanmate, in cold blood. He also plotted all of this with a tyrannical ex-leader of ShadowClan who's cats brutally murdered our medicine cat and injured others and is also known for driving out WindClan. Also to top it off, Tigerstar brutally killed my ex best friend's mom, caused Cinderpelt's crippling injury, led dogs into the forest which ultimately led to Bluestar's death, murdered an innocent apprentice Gorsepaw in front of everyone, had Stonefur killed, planned to kill even more cats by using outside forces of BloodClan to try and oppress the clans, but it's all okay cause I never knew him as a dad so I should excuse all the horrible crap he's put every cat through despite me beings self-aware of how dangerous and evil of a cat he actually is. And despite all the warnings from Squirrelflight and even my own sister, Tawnypelt, who apparently was smarter of the two of us, but it's totally okay. Yeah, I hesitated to save my own leader when I was tempted to finish him off because he was the only thing that stood between me and leadership then let him lie about it later, but it's okay....everything is okay!"
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on May 10, 2018 21:43:43 GMT -5
You said it was all hearsay, which means rumors/gossip, which is usually connected with lies. That's on me for misunderstanding. After he became an apprentice, nobody shielded him. Goldenflower did, which she says herself, but after that, all the filters were gone because it was pretty much impossible not to see it, since that's when Tigerstar really began throwing plans out there and doing anything and everything to take ThunderClan down. Even if only personally seeing Brindleface's fate, the fact that Tigerstar murdered one cat so brutally -- and then what occurred from that, with the dog pack -- should've been enough to show that Tigerstar was terrible. I mean, why should he have to meet Tigerstar and experience everything firsthand like Tawnypelt -- which, I think would be a terrible way to learn anything -- when he had clear evidence left and right of everything he'd done? Even just ignoring the events in ThunderClan, there's the other Clans, too. WindClan said what Tigerstar had done to Gorsepaw. He saw Mistystar, Feathertail, and Stormfur when they stumbled into the ThunderClan camp, half-dead after they were kept in a rotting foxhole and they were just barely rescued (I also think Feathertail and Stormfur were in the apprentices' den with the rest of the TC apprentices, but I could be wrong). He went to the former TigerClan camp, where the cats were pretty much rotting away as evidence of what happened, including Bonehill. Everywhere Tigerstar went, ruins followed in his wake. Bramblestar may not have been there personally and watched all this like Firestar and a few other cats did, but Bramblestar did witness the aftermath of many of these awful things. The main point I'm trying to make is Brambleclaw believed his father could change and Tawnypelt didn't. Which was why Tigerstar was able to lure him into his grasp. In the scene when Tawnypelt turns down Tigerstar and tells her brother off, she was able to do so without a single doubt in her head because of her personal experience she knew he would never change. Brambleclaw even back when he was apprentice knew his father was bad but didn't think he deserved to die as he did. Where as Tawnypelt said she was glad he was dead and that Scourge had killed him. The only difference in their upbringing is that Tawnypelt left and joined her father and Brambleclaw stayed in ThunderClan. From what Brambleclaw experienced from his time in THunderClan he didn't think his father had deserved the death he was given. From Tawnypelt's experience from her time in ThunderClan and with her father she felt he did deserve the death he was given and mentioned it in that quote. She knew just from living with him that he was a force to be feared and that he could never be anything but a manipulative tyrant. Bramblestar saw a cat who did a lot of horrid things but wanted to make amends and help his son be a good warrior. Tawnypelt wasn't fooled because she saw what he was really like way back then. Brambleclaw didn't, he saw his father as a bad cat, who deserved the Clans hatred but he never saw the truly ambitious and manipulative cat he really was. He didn't think he was doing anything wrong and started to question himself after Tawnypelt talks to him. And if I remember correctly after Brambleclaw is made deputy is when Tigerstar starts really showing his colors to Brambleclaw and talking of taking over the two Clans. He is greatly confused and uncomfortable. And when his brother request to meet in person (alluding to the Firestar trap) Brambleclaw planned to convince Hawkfrost that only leading RiverClan would be enough and that they shouldn't want more than to serve their own CLans as leaders. Basically he thought his father was just helping them become strong warriors to serve their Clan. Not that he was grooming them to be leaders of all the Clans. Brambleclaw believed that his father was sincere and capable of changing and wasn't planning another take over that's why he let things with his father go as far as it did. He didn't completely dismiss what Tawnypelt told him he just had a hard time believing that TIgerstar hadn't changed and wasn't helping him to make amends but to serve for his own agenda. I do get what you mean about hoping for the best, but that is also why I say Bramblestar is, in my opinion, an idiot. I can't even call him naive...just plain dumb. And his lies could've cost a lot, so for me, him judging Squirrelflight so harshly was uncalled for, when he had no leg to stand on. I really struggle to see how he could justify any of this and visit his father. Tigerstar's path to power has always included murder, in death and life. He doesn't know the word "peace" if it came and bit him in the butt. I can understand wanting to give someone another shot, but when you (and I mean 'you' as in general, not you specifically) have a serial killer/mass murderer like Tigerstar in front of you, I don't give a damn what kernel of good you desperately want to see in them, even if that person is wearing a fake mask. So we're just gonna have to agree to disagree! It's not often I get a chance to argue about this fictional talking cats, but I debate often in different subjects in other places, and that probably leaked over (and those disputes have way worse subject arguments than this, with real world issues ;p I tend to get a bit too into it sometimes with debates in all subjects now, I guess). Sorry if I came off as mean here.
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Post by Ligerfrost on May 10, 2018 22:02:25 GMT -5
That's fine I was actually planning on agreeing to disagree anyway. I do think Bramblestar is mousebrained I called him such while reading the New Prophecy series when he talked to Tigerstar but I think because I have spent a lot of time looking at his character from his point of view and not just the reader's perspective I have a strong attachment to him I do understand his his harsh judgement by his Clanmates and I always respect him for sticking with THudnerClan and not simply leaving like Tawnypelt did. I think they were both brave but that is also why I don't compare them because they took very different paths that taught them very different lessons, about loyalty and self worth.
I see Squirrel X Bramble as flawed because it was Fire X Sand 2.0 with much harsher fighting and two very hot-blooded cats. Who instead of using facts, used emotion to dictate their actions. This is why never felt they were a good pairing because they were too similar. I always believed Brambleclaw needed a balance which is why I had hoped BrambleXFeather would have been a pairing as while they had similar backgrounds and similar stories and would have understood each other better than most. I never believed Squirrelflight really understood Brambleclaw or how his father haunts his life until death.
Brambleclaw walking the the thin line between dark and light was apart of his character and I think the reason it is more significant to me that Tawnypelt is because he is his father's cloned and likely what Tigerstar would have been if he hadn't been so ambitious or bloodthirsty.
I also just think it's hilarious that Tigerstar is obsessed with Brambleclaw.
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