#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 24, 2018 2:24:15 GMT -5
I was rereading TAS, when I can across this here:
Not only has Berryheart been a warrior for several moons now—she and her littermates were born way back in Eclipse—but she's also Needletail's mother and was also one of the cats who joined Darktail willingly before he took over ShadowClan.
And before that, we get this conversation between Snowbird and Beepaw.
Considering that Berryheart is Snowbird's daughter, it wouldn't surprise me if she was also raised with this line of thinking, and taught her own daughter the same thing. This also seems to imply that at least in Snowbird's family, she doesn't really listen to what her kits have to say, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same went for the other apprentices and their own families either.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say here, do you think it's possible that the reason Needletail turned out the way she did was partially because of how Berryheart possibly raised her?
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Bisexual
Fawnwing
Tree is good, you guys are just mean
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Post by Fawnwing on Apr 24, 2018 6:47:12 GMT -5
Probably. I was surprised her mother was in on it too. If her mother acted that way, and had that way of thinking I think it's only logical her daughter turns put the same way.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Apr 24, 2018 7:49:13 GMT -5
I never realized the connection before! So many cats joined Darktail and with so many families unacknowledged, including in the other Clans, I forgot Berryheart was Needletail's mother. The idea of her passing her ideals onto her daughter due to her own potentially neglecting kithood with Snowbird makes sense, after rereading this scenes. After all, we know Needletail's anger with the warrior code seemed to spark when nobody looked for her after the hawk took her away, and then how cold they were (including Tawnypelt, who wasn't even born into ShadowClan) toward Tree after he helped her. I wonder if after stewing on things when she got back, she listened more closely to Berryheart complaining about Rowanstar/the older cats so much that she thought, "Even my mother is unhappy here!" and all this combined made her want to make a change. She may've felt even more spurred on when, after openly protesting against Rowanstar, she had her mother's support. This would've set everything even further in stone with her thinking she's doing what's right after Berryheart even joined the rogues with her.
That's really cool, actually. I wonder if it was intentional...
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 24, 2018 15:53:27 GMT -5
I never realized the connection before! So many cats joined Darktail and with so many families unacknowledged, including in the other Clans, I forgot Berryheart was Needletail's mother. The idea of her passing her ideals onto her daughter due to her own potentially neglecting kithood with Snowbird makes sense, after rereading this scenes. After all, we know Needletail's anger with the warrior code seemed to spark when nobody looked for her after the hawk took her away, and then how cold they were (including Tawnypelt, who wasn't even born into ShadowClan) toward Tree after he helped her. I wonder if after stewing on things when she got back, she listened more closely to Berryheart complaining about Rowanstar/the older cats so much that she thought, "Even my mother is unhappy here!" and all this combined made her want to make a change. She may've felt even more spurred on when, after openly protesting against Rowanstar, she had her mother's support. This would've set everything even further in stone with her thinking she's doing what's right after Berryheart even joined the rogues with her. That's really cool, actually. I wonder if it was intentional... This is exactly what I've been thinking as well. Needletail is certainly an interesting character to analyze, and kind of makes me wonder exactly what her relationship with her parents was like, especially considering that Sparrowtail stayed in ShadowClan while his mate went to join Darktail. We know from the TS manga that they loved Needletail, but for an arc that focus so much on kinship, I think it's interesting how there are rarely any interactions between them. At first, I thought Berryheart joined because she wanted to look after Needletail and Beepaw (her younger sister), but now I'm starting to think otherwise after having reread it. Cloverfoot (Berryheart's littermate) also joined before Darktail took over ShadowClan, so she probably shared similar opinions with her own kin. And this might relate more towards Rowanstar's leadership as a whole, but another thing I noticed is that even in TAS, ShadowClan seems to be value strength to the point of letting its apprentices fight over prey with unsheathed claws. We know ShadowClan has always been the more aggressive Clan, but to let apprentices attack each other over prey? Assuming Needletail had a similar apprenticeship while she was still training with Tawnypelt, her aggressive nature might make sense if she was never reprimanded for it until after it started to affect the older cats. This would also likely explain why the mentors at this time lost control of their apprentices in the first place. It's also mentioned in TAQ how the older cats would gossip about the other Clans in front of the apprentices, so that couldn't have helped either. Then there's the mini rebellion in general, where all of the apprentices felt they weren't being respected, so there might've actually been a problem if every one of them felt this way rather than just Needletail herself, such as when Crowfrost—the deputy and father to three of the rebellious apprentices—implied that the apprentices were dumb because they couldn't remember the rules. Some cats also felt like ShadowClan wasn't being respected, and the stories the elders told of ShadowClan's glory days clearly had an affect on the apprentices as well. One of the elders—Ratscar—even agreed with them! I also noticed how in the infamous scene, Stonewing says that Juniperpaw was embarrassing him and twice it was stated how the previous generation of apprentices did what they were told, but no one really did much to get to the bottom of what the issue was. Sure, it was asked why the apprentices was acting up, but most of it was just arguing or vague answers. So yeah, Rowanstar's poor leadership aside, several things led to ShadowClan's fall that were out of his control. |
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Post by Chocolate-Fawn on Apr 24, 2018 16:29:50 GMT -5
ShadowClan hasn't been doing well and I think their glory days was under the reign of Shadowstar, their first leader and Blackstar (well there was that one time with Sol but still). ShadowClan has become very corrupt and all their personalities are the same like "Bobtail-ambitious ShadowClan tom who's quick to attack, has a short temper and sharp tongue." There's like barely anyone in ShadowClan who has a variety of personalities like the other clans. And also Rowanstar should've punished the apprentices and have a long talk with them telling them that every cat in ShadowClan is important, from the tiniest kit to the oldest elder and all that boring grown-up stuff.
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Post by Mistybreeze on Apr 24, 2018 16:30:13 GMT -5
I've been saying this since TAS came out. The rebels were products of their environment. This type of attitude has been prevalent in ShadowClan for countless generations. Is it really that shocking that it would be taken to the next level at some point?
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