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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 22:40:19 GMT -5
i'm nervous to post this, because i know by posting this i'm essentially stepping into the lion's den, but it's been on my mind for a while
out of everything people hate tigerheart for, i don't understand why people hate him for going after dovewing. yes, they shouldn't have been together in the first place, but what's done is done. dovewing was already pregnant with his kits, and didn't give him much choice by running off like that. he did what he thought was best. i feel like people would hate him no matter what in this situation.
if he had said, "screw dovewing and my kits," and stayed behind in shadowclan everyone would hate him and accuse him of being a neglectful father and mate that can't handle the responsibility of parenting.
if he were sad and regretful for not going after them, everyone would hate him for not moving on with his life. They would say he's moping and that he needs to just get over them.
if he had told his clan what was going on, and thunderclan and shadowclan teamed up to find dovewing, people would hate him for dragging others into his problems. they would say he's immature for being unable to solve his problems on his own, and that because of him cats that were needed at home had to go out and find his mistakes instead of being there for their clans.
if he didn't say anything at all, people would hate him for keeping dovewing's whereabouts a secret while everyone worries over her.
i feel like basically any situation whether he stayed or went people would still hate him for one reason or another.
i agree this situation could have been handled differently, but of all things people hate tigerheart for i really don't get this. he tried to convince dovewing to stay, but she refused and left without him. she didn't give him much choice by running off in her vulnerable state. The kits were especially vunerable. while dovewing stood a greater chance out on her own, the kits stood absolutely no chance if something were to ever happen to her. yes, shadowclan was vunerable as well but the majority of them are adults who are capable of caring for themselves. not to mention if they didn't act like such heathens and had just obeyed rowanstar in the first place their clan wouldn't have been in the state it was.
and i say all of this because of how the fandom reacts to other characters.
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Post by Jaysnow on Apr 18, 2018 23:27:59 GMT -5
It's refreshing to find someone who still likes Tigerstar 2.
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Post by Mistybreeze on Apr 18, 2018 23:50:05 GMT -5
In the eyes of the fandom, Tigerheart can never do anything right. I'm sure you saw my post for the other day.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Apr 19, 2018 0:01:00 GMT -5
My problem with Tigerheart is what happened before that led to him going after Dovewing. From T&S onward, he spent too much time padding after her while his Clan was in ruins. This led to the kits, then to her leaving, and then him abandoning his Clan. What's more is that the least he could've done was tell someone. It isn't dragging others into their problems. Imo, it'd be a sign of maturity, because he knows he screwed up and things are too serious right now, and that he needs to take responsibility for his poor decisions. I'd imagine that a ThunderClan patrol made up of her family would've went after her, and then he could concentrate on his dying Clan. Would he be judged? Yeah, but again: responsibility taken. He knew her Clanmates were upset, because we saw as much with Ivypool at least 2 times. Instead, he just left, and ShadowClan didn't know what the hell happened to him, and judging from ROF, Sleekwhisker was still on the loose, so he could've been dead. This also made renaming a deputy a bit difficult (but also easily solved by going to the Moonpool, but they didn't, 'cause Puddleshine is dumb now, I guess. If Tawnypelt was accepted after Rowanstar stepped down -- which she wouldn't have been, 'cause ya know, plot -- that would've helped provide stability for the Clan).
He's like a prime example of why cats aren't allowed to take mates outside their Clans. Dovewing felt unsafe in any of the Clans, therefore she left the lake altogether, which is what caused this ultimatum for him. He had to choose between her and his Clan, and he chose her, when this situation shouldn't have happened to begin with. He could've stopped their relationship at any point -- so could she, but we're focusing on him right now -- and put his energy into his own Clan, which is what a good deputy is supposed to do. It was bad enough when he was an average warrior, but now the time he spent stressing over her and meeting her repeatedly should've been placed on helping ShadowClan. I'm also of the potentially unpopular notion that if he wanted to leave, then just go. Don't come back. He made his decision, so stick with it. He picked her over his Clan, knowing what it'd do to ShadowClan, so concentrate on the now and stop flip-flopping.
So my issue is actually sort of the events that led up to him having to make that decision and how he left. It could've been so easily avoided.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Apr 19, 2018 5:42:14 GMT -5
While I don't like the bias the Erins have, I still like him and I agree it's stupid to hate him for this. I barely see anyone hating Dovewing for being stupid. Instead, she gets forgiven.
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 19, 2018 7:00:02 GMT -5
While I don't like the bias the Erins have, I still like him and I agree it's stupid to hate him for this. I barely see anyone hating Dovewing for being stupid. Instead, she gets forgiven. I don't forgive her in the slightest. Both characters are selfish, unnessecary idiots that nobody wanted to read about anymore. Tigerheart shouldn't have been mooning after Dove and vice versa in the first place, or the kits wouldn't be an issue at all. Tigerheart abandoned his clan when they needed him most, and as harsh as it may seem, they take precedent over the stupidity of a queen who is the only one to blame if their kits get injured or she dies. So yes, I'm going to really dislike Tigerheart for doing all this crap and still getting rewarded with leadership and trust he does not deserve.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 7:06:44 GMT -5
I'm not gonna hate on anyone for liking Tigerheartstar, not at all. But I still don't like him. I'm not gonna forget that he flat-out left ShadowClan while they were in pieces and trying to recover from the Darktail scenario, all because he still loves a ThunderClan cat and in a forbidden relationship. He was thinking more with his heart and emotions rather than using his brain and common sense.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 19, 2018 8:55:14 GMT -5
Either way, there's no win win situation for Tigerheart. He was the only stability his clan had left, he abandoned them and left them to die out, in order to chase after his forbidden mate and kits. He wasn't there when his clan needed him the most, in it's most vulnerable moments, which imo makes him an incompetent deputy.
On the other hand, if he didn't go after Dovewing, he'd have the guilt of her possibly dying on his shoulders, along with his kits. He supposedly loved her so much, yet didn't go with her at first, but also didn't stop her from going by getting her clan involved. He knew her plans, knew when she'd left, he should have said something, to Ivypool at least. Instead, he kept his mouth shut and didn't say a word, while her clan is flipping over looking for a pregnant queen, wasting energy they could be using to hunt and patrol their territory.
But the thing is? This could have ALL been avoided if he and Dove hadn't gotten back together. I am just as harsh on Tiger as I am Dove, but Tigerheart was the one who was padding after Dove when they broke up, even when she was with Bumblestripe. Asking about her, looking right at her when she knew, interacting with her when he was staying with her at ThunderClan, and biting at one another throats over the tiniest things just because she was trying to focus on being a warrior and not him instead. In the end, Dovewing gave in, and that honestly just still grinds my gears. No matter how you look at it, these two broke the code, they should have known better, and they dealt with it in such a ridiculous manner. And that eventually led to the dumpster fire book of THS. You'd think Tigerheart becoming a deputy would have made him mature, but it didn't, it made him worse.
But the thing is? He doesn't even actually get punished for his actions. He dies, yet StarClan gives him 9 lives, leadership, his mate and kits, he gets it all. And I'm still annoyed. Imo he should have stayed dead, would have taught him and Dovewing a lesson, but in the end he's rewarded.
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Post by Amberfoot on Apr 19, 2018 12:29:16 GMT -5
Youre right. This is why I consider Dovewing the rotten person. Not him. Shes the one who pressured Tigertsar to pork in the first place. We know she did because she was doing this back in the last hope. She didn't think about the consequences and runs off with no one to protect her and expects Tigertsar to drop everything for her. This is how shes always been she did this in oots too. And then Daisy tells her in river of fire that having nightmares about the nursery is normal. She did this all for nothing. Dovewing is disgusting and always has been. Why do people think she developed? I agree. I actually really hated Dovewing in Tigerheart's Shadow. Like a lot. She disregared her entire clan, sister, everyone she ever knew, for Tigerheart. She should have just had her kits in the clan. I feel like her character has really changed for the worse since she was a POV. She also kind of toyed with Bumblestripe for no reason either. I'm so surpised she got a power in the series and then ends up joining ShadowClan after all. I wonder what Jayfeather/Lionblaze think. (Was she no longer close with them once the powers were gone? I forgot a lot of what happened in the 4th series...)
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 19, 2018 13:07:26 GMT -5
I agree with this. I may not like Tigerheart that much, but at least one person would've disliked him no matter what choice he made. He just probably wouldn't be as disliked as he is now.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 19, 2018 13:47:43 GMT -5
Youre right. This is why I consider Dovewing the rotten person. Not him. Shes the one who pressured Tigertsar to pork in the first place. We know she did because she was doing this back in the last hope. She didn't think about the consequences and runs off with no one to protect her and expects Tigertsar to drop everything for her. This is how shes always been she did this in oots too. And then Daisy tells her in river of fire that having nightmares about the nursery is normal. She did this all for nothing. Dovewing is disgusting and always has been. Why do people think she developed? Dovewing didn't pressure Tigerheart, though? Or at least not that I can recall. From what I can remember, Dovewing only suggested that maybe Tigerheart will be in ThunderClan by newleaf and that they'll have kits. Tigerheart made it clear he wasn't ready, and she just left it alone while also feeling embarrassed that she brought it up at all. As for the nursery, apparently it was destroyed during the storm and it's implied that Dovewing was getting the nightmares via an unborn Shadowkit. Alderheart even thinks what would've happened had Dovewing stayed. That being said, even as someone who likes Dovewing and has been analyzing her, I actually agree with you. Her character is dumb and her development is dumb. I find her more interesting than Lionblaze at least, but even that's not saying much thanks to a completely unnecessary forbidden romance that drags on into the next arc, and another annoying sibling rivalry plot. It's just really jarring. There's a reason why I like her more in TFA and somewhat in FE and the second half of OotS, minus most of TLH. Which is a shame, because I do feel like there was alot of wasted potential done with her. Actually, the same goes for most, if not all of OotS.
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Apr 19, 2018 14:21:40 GMT -5
Youre right. This is why I consider Dovewing the rotten person. Not him. Shes the one who pressured Tigertsar to pork in the first place. We know she did because she was doing this back in the last hope. She didn't think about the consequences and runs off with no one to protect her and expects Tigertsar to drop everything for her. This is how shes always been she did this in oots too. And then Daisy tells her in river of fire that having nightmares about the nursery is normal. She did this all for nothing. Dovewing is disgusting and always has been. Why do people think she developed? Dovewing didn't pressure Tigerheart, though? Or at least not that I can recall. From what I can remember, Dovewing only suggested that maybe Tigerheart will be in ThunderClan by newleaf and that they'll have kits. Tigerheart made it clear he wasn't ready, and she just left it alone while also feeling embarrassed that she brought it up at all. As for the nursery, apparently it was destroyed during the storm and it's implied that Dovewing was getting the nightmares via an unborn Shadowkit. Alderheart even thinks what would've happened had Dovewing stayed. That being said, even as someone who likes Dovewing and has been analyzing her, I actually agree with you. Her character is dumb and her development is dumb. I find her more interesting than Lionblaze at least, but even that's not saying much thanks to a completely unnecessary forbidden romance that drags on into the next arc, and another annoying sibling rivalry plot. It's just really jarring. There's a reason why I like her more in TFA and somewhat in FE and the second half of OotS, minus most of TLH. Which is a shame, because I do feel like there was alot of wasted potential done with her. Actually, the same goes for most, if not all of OotS. This is a kids series. This is the pg way of saying "lets pork".
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Apr 19, 2018 14:31:56 GMT -5
Finally. More people understand what I've been thinking this whole time. There was no reason for Tigerheart to even ask Dovepaw to meet with him in the first place. So from there, their whole relationship never made sense and was forced. And then it continued to drag on and on and now look, Dovewing was out of character in Tigerheart's Shadow all for the sake of Tigerheart being praised and looking like a hero to everyone by the lake.
Their relationship never had ANY basis. Who cares if they were on the journey together? That's not a reason to meet and it's JUST the two of them and none of the other journeying cats were invited or really talked about or had a "desire" to see each other again like Tigerheart. If anyone is to blame, it is him for even suggesting the first meeting in the first place.
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Post by Amberfoot on Apr 19, 2018 14:50:50 GMT -5
Finally. More people understand what I've been thinking this whole time. There was no reason for Tigerheart to even ask Dovepaw to meet with him in the first place. So from there, their whole relationship never made sense and was forced. And then it continued to drag on and on and now look, Dovewing was out of character in Tigerheart's Shadow all for the sake of Tigerheart being praised and looking like a hero to everyone by the lake. Their relationship never had ANY basis. Who cares if they were on the journey together? That's not a reason to meet and it's JUST the two of them and none of the other journeying cats were invited or really talked about or had a "desire" to see each other again like Tigerheart. If anyone is to blame, it is him for even suggesting the first meeting in the first place. You know, it would be REALLY interesting though if they realized through all of that journey and her moving to ShadowClan that the only reason they liked each other was becuase they liked the idea of a forbidden romance. Maybe they'll have problems now that they're in ShadowClan? (Probably not...but I feel like it's an interesting topic that's never happened with a romance like that. No one has had a forbidden romance before, moved in with the other clan, and then broken up after they had the time to get to know each other. I only say that because it seems so sappy that she's all happy with Tigerstar now)
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 19, 2018 14:51:14 GMT -5
Finally. More people understand what I've been thinking this whole time. There was no reason for Tigerheart to even ask Dovepaw to meet with him in the first place. So from there, their whole relationship never made sense and was forced. And then it continued to drag on and on and now look, Dovewing was out of character in Tigerheart's Shadow all for the sake of Tigerheart being praised and looking like a hero to everyone by the lake. Their relationship never had ANY basis. Who cares if they were on the journey together? That's not a reason to meet and it's JUST the two of them and none of the other journeying cats were invited or really talked about or had a "desire" to see each other again like Tigerheart. If anyone is to blame, it is him for even suggesting the first meeting in the first place. I actually have a theory that that's why Dovepaw met up with Tigerheart in the first place. By the time of NW, her friendship with Ivypaw was suffering, and as FE demonstrates, no one really kept in touch with each other or even wanted to (or at least Sedgewhisker and Whitetail didn't) except Tigerheart with Dovepaw. This is in contrast to alot of previous journeys, which Dovewing probably grew up hearing. Add onto the prophecy stifling her and not even being that close to Jayfeather and Lionblaze, and it's possible she met him out of loneliness rather than actually liking him, at least initially. The problem is that the writing doesn't do a good job to elaborate on this further, so it just comes off as a little (or alot) forced. It also doesn't help that neither character feels like their own cat, especially Tigerheart. Even in TS, something was just off.
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Apr 19, 2018 14:54:33 GMT -5
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 it wouldnt explain why tigerheart insisted on it in the first place though. it's kinda dumb regardless. hanging out with someone because you're lonely is kinda lame too because you're just using someone to fill a void. Amberfoot that WOULD have been interesting though. imagine dovewing left for shadowclan much earlier and then when she got there and had kits, she realizes the relationship is what it is: which is BAD. and then they both realize it was only good for them when it was forbidden because of the excitment.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 19, 2018 15:04:13 GMT -5
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 it wouldnt explain why tigerheart insisted on it in the first place though. it's kinda dumb regardless. hanging out with someone because you're lonely is kinda lame too because you're just using someone to fill a void. Dovepaw was a young cat when she decided to meet with Tigerheart and apparently fell in love with him though and clearly wanted to keep ties with what she probably considered to be the one friend she had left. To this day, she still remembers the journey fondly. I never said it was a good reason, but it would at least explain some things. And I was talking about Dovepaw specifically. With Tigerheart, I'd honestly just chalk it up to immaturity, as well as a possible stress reliever on both sides.
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Post by seastar on Apr 19, 2018 16:21:50 GMT -5
Spoilers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 16:24:09 GMT -5
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Post by seastar on Apr 19, 2018 16:25:55 GMT -5
I probably should have been aware for spoilers, but i didn't know Tigerheart had kits with anybody so. . .
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 16:27:06 GMT -5
oh well tigerheart's shadow came out seven months ago so
we usually only do spoilers for the first month or so after a new release
sorry
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Post by Jaysnow on Apr 19, 2018 16:28:54 GMT -5
Bro the book's been out for ages...
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Post by seastar on Apr 19, 2018 16:37:43 GMT -5
Everyone doesn't always read all of the books that aren't part of the arcs. i usually don't read the books if it's ab to a character i don't care for.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 17:01:19 GMT -5
Everyone doesn't always read all of the books that aren't part of the arcs. i usually don't read the books if it's ab to a character i don't care for. This book is still a part of the series. If it's a character you don't care for then why are you bothered about the spoilers? Even if Twisterheart did mention spoilers as a tag it's minor. The kits aren't important to the plot, at least right now. I'm sorry but it's an annoyance of mine when people judge books based on the cover (Tigerheart). You have to expect not everyone is going to put spoilers on everything. They will for RoF, because that was just released, but not the older ones. :/
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Apr 20, 2018 11:44:53 GMT -5
Everyone doesn't always read all of the books that aren't part of the arcs. i usually don't read the books if it's ab to a character i don't care for. why do you care about spoilers for a book you dont want to read?
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Post by seastar on Apr 20, 2018 16:16:52 GMT -5
Even if i don't read the Novella (i'm guessing that's what the book is) wouldn't it still be connected to the latest arc
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 16:18:19 GMT -5
Even if i don't read the Novella (i'm guessing that's what the book is) wouldn't it still be connected to the latest arc Its a Super Edition..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 16:19:55 GMT -5
Even if i don't read the Novella (i'm guessing that's what the book is) wouldn't it still be connected to the latest arc Why are you complaining? If you're not going to bother reading the book then you have to figure out another way to read spoilers. If you were going to read it EVENTUALLY then I get it. But I don't know why you're making a big deal about this. People read this book ages ago. You can't expect us to put spoilers in EVERYTHING. That's not how it works here
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