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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Apr 12, 2018 17:14:19 GMT -5
bleh idk
if mudstar was a thing, whats the worst that could happen? he'd probably not actually make hawkfrost deputy. i have this feeling like if windclan was more well informed about tallstar's illegal deputy change, and the fact that onewhisker never served as deputy...then windclan would have no reason to ever support onewhisker, and wouldn't doubt mudclaw. and then if mudclaw always did have this big support, then he wouldn't need to use hawkfrost.
if mudclaw was just given his rights as leader, he wouldn't ever need to ask hawkfrost for help or to use hawkfrost as a bargaining chip.
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Post by sylveon on Apr 12, 2018 17:25:46 GMT -5
I feel like they would have been as hostile as they were under Onestar. Mudclaw probably would have still helped in the badger attack, and the battle in eclipse would more or less be the same...
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Apr 12, 2018 17:27:35 GMT -5
I feel like they would have been as hostile as they were under Onestar. Mudclaw probably would have still helped in the badger attack, and the battle in eclipse would more or less be the same... no, i don't think mudclaw would ever have reason to needlessly attack thunderclan. for onestar, that eclipse attack was super personal to him, and he just made windclan think the same so he could have an excuse to attack.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2018 17:37:48 GMT -5
Honestly, I've been thinking for a while, and he couldn't have been much worse than Onestar. After all, Onestar was trying to mimic what Mudclaw would have done in order to please his clanmates and be the leader they wanted. If you want to see what Mudclaw would have been like- just look at Onestar.
Though I suppose Onestar would still be considered a "Mudclaw Light", as I don't think he would have ever sent Crowfeather and Breezepaw to the mountains, nor would he have had a casual conversation with Jayfeather that one time, and let's be real, Onestar was all talk and no claws. Even during the 4-clan war he spat out his rant and then was never seen in the fight again. Mudclaw would have been a lot more involved in whatever his clan did.
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Apr 12, 2018 17:39:31 GMT -5
Honestly, I've been thinking for a while, and he couldn't have been much worse than Onestar. After all, Onestar was trying to mimic what Mudclaw would have done in order to please his clanmates and be the leader they wanted. If you want to see what Mudclaw would have been like- just look at Onestar. Though I suppose Onestar would still be considered a "Mudclaw Light", as I don't think he would have ever sent Crowfeather and Breezepaw to the mountains, nor would he have had a casual conversation with Jayfeather that one time, and let's be real, Onestar was all talk and no claws. Even during the 4-clan war he spat out his rant and then was never seen in the fight again. Mudclaw would have been a lot more involved in whatever his clan did. to me, onestar did what he THINKS mudclaw would be like. we don't know how being leader would ACTUALLY change mudclaw. i still believe mudclaw wasn't as bad as others make him out to be and by law, he is the rightful leader
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2018 17:42:06 GMT -5
Honestly, I've been thinking for a while, and he couldn't have been much worse than Onestar. After all, Onestar was trying to mimic what Mudclaw would have done in order to please his clanmates and be the leader they wanted. If you want to see what Mudclaw would have been like- just look at Onestar. Though I suppose Onestar would still be considered a "Mudclaw Light", as I don't think he would have ever sent Crowfeather and Breezepaw to the mountains, nor would he have had a casual conversation with Jayfeather that one time, and let's be real, Onestar was all talk and no claws. Even during the 4-clan war he spat out his rant and then was never seen in the fight again. Mudclaw would have been a lot more involved in whatever his clan did. to me, onestar did what he THINKS mudclaw would be like. we don't know how being leader would ACTUALLY change mudclaw. i still believe mudclaw wasn't as bad as others make him out to be and by law, he is the rightful leader Yeah that's true, Onestar was guessing just as much as we are. For all we know he could have assumed wrong. He didn't exactly ever have the best relationship with Mudclaw.
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Post by Gяαч Sкч on Apr 12, 2018 17:48:06 GMT -5
I think he would be the same as Onestar, so not much would be different.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2018 17:57:33 GMT -5
He'd probably be like Onestar for a while at first, but he'd also probably eventually calm down.
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Apr 12, 2018 19:03:45 GMT -5
He'd probably be like Onestar for a while at first, but he'd also probably eventually calm down. this is a bit more believable tbh. i dont think mudclaw was as bad as people like to make him out to be. he had no personal gripe with firestar like onewhisker/star had.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2018 19:12:23 GMT -5
He'd probably be like Onestar for a while at first, but he'd also probably eventually calm down. this is a bit more believable tbh. i dont think mudclaw was as bad as people like to make him out to be. he had no personal gripe with firestar like onewhisker/star had. Definitely true. Nowadays, whenever I see Makuu from The Lion Guard, I think of Mudclaw and think of their similarities if Mudclaw had become WindClan's leader: arrogant and pushing their weight around, then being more reasonable though still jerky occasionally.
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Post by Eyfex on Apr 13, 2018 2:37:52 GMT -5
Although I don't think Mudclaw was that bad, I don't think he would've helped TC in the badger attack. If he did, he would have had demanded some sort of debt to be paid.
Now aside from that I don't think he would've been that bad of a leader for WindClan - far less erratic that Onestar, that's for sure. But perhaps Tallstar's vision of blood and fighting was actually a vision of the destruction of ThunderClan in the badger attack, not of his own Clan. Given that Jake was the one to guide him to StarClan, I'd like to think that Tallstar's final decision was to help protect Jake's son from a grizzly death.
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Post by Mistybreeze on Apr 13, 2018 3:25:53 GMT -5
He would have been a lot like Blackstar. Not unnecessarily aggressive, but also not taking crap from anyone. The only reason Tallstar didn't want him to become leader was because he knew that Mudclaw wasn't going to roll over and show his belly whenever it pleased Firestar.
Mudclaw has never given any indication that he would threaten the other Clans. Every single time we saw him acting aggressively prior to Starlight was in response to some kind of threat. In RS, he was simply chasing off intruders when Fireheart and co trespassed on WindClan territory. Later on in the same book, his refusal to allow Bluestar and Fireheart pass was understandable. He, along with the rest of WindClan, was still upset that ThunderClan had secretly housed Brokenstar. Any other cat would have reacted the same way. Doesn't make it right, but it is understandable.
Now for his actions in Starlight. He had every right to do what he did. The deputy succeeds the leader; that is what the warrior code states. He had served loyally under Tallstar for many moons. He respected his leader and his decisions. He basically led WindClan during the journey. He earned his nine lives. And then to suddenly have that snatched away from him, who wouldn't react the same way? Mudclaw never had any ill intentions at all. We only see him through the heavily biased eyes of the ThunderClan cats. Step back and judge him just by his character, and anyone can see that he is nothing more than a dedicated, loyal warrior completely devoted to serving his Clan.
Mudstar would have been nothing like Onestar for one simple reason: he had nothing to prove.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 13, 2018 6:46:54 GMT -5
Tell me, if Graystripe had refused to acknowledge Brambleclaw and just decided to lead a coup, would he be justified? A coup with help from other clans no less?
No, and it’s silly Mudclaw gets that justification. It was a naked power grab because his ego was slighted, otherwise he wouldn’t have had so much trouble even with two other clans backing him up.
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Post by WhispersintheMist on Apr 13, 2018 11:14:48 GMT -5
Attempted uniting of the Clans under Mudstar's rule?
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Post by Lady of the Emblem on Apr 13, 2018 11:40:52 GMT -5
Tell me, if Graystripe had refused to acknowledge Brambleclaw and just decided to lead a coup, would he be justified? A coup with help from other clans no less? No, and it’s silly Mudclaw gets that justification. It was a naked power grab because his ego was slighted, otherwise he wouldn’t have had so much trouble even with two other clans backing him up. that is not the same situation. graystripe was taken by twolegs. firestar had every reason to believe (after some time to get over it) that graystripe was never coming back. the clan agreed and witnessed this change bc they had no deputy. windclan HAD a deputy. and mudclaw actually SERVED as deputy and had to do whats best for the clan while tallstar was getting more frail. onewhisker DID NOT server as deputy. this is literally why i am sitll on mudclaw's side and like to debate over it. only two thunderclan cats witnessed the change of deputy and MUDCLAW DID NOT CONSENT TO THIS CHANGE. do you think mudclaw would want this change? no! he served as deputy and took care of windclan when tallstar couldn't! onewhisker didn't serve as deputy and it's even mentioned he felt PRESSURED into accepting and not doing anything to do what's right. and what was right was letting the warrior code take over because tallstar was not in the right state of mind when he made the change, therefore his word shouldn't be law at that moment. mudclaw was still deputy according to windclan. why should they believe two thunderclan cats and the cat himself who claims to be the next leader. why should onewhisker automatically be leader if he never served as deputy. he was "deputy" for a minute before tallstar dies. that doesn't qualify for becoming leader. and it didn't help tht firestar pressured onewhisker into "following tallstar's last words/wish." that is complete crap.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Apr 13, 2018 11:44:34 GMT -5
Tell me, if Graystripe had refused to acknowledge Brambleclaw and just decided to lead a coup, would he be justified? A coup with help from other clans no less? No, and it’s silly Mudclaw gets that justification. It was a naked power grab because his ego was slighted, otherwise he wouldn’t have had so much trouble even with two other clans backing him up. I'm not sure that comparison can be made between the two. Mudclaw was always present for WindClan, while Graystripe was gone for moons. Graystripe did lead ThunderClan in Firestar's absence during Firestar's Quest, but by the time he returned in the new territory, Brambleclaw had been serving as ThunderClan's deputy for a year or two (what's the timeline on that, anyway?) already. It's similar to how Mistystar was declared "dead" during Dawn...which, by the way, Hawkfrost still should've been deputy, because by those merits, Graystripe should've been reinstated like Mistystar was. Anyway, Graystripe was thought to be dead at the time, which made Bramblestar's deputy ceremony legitimate, while Mudclaw never went anywhere. He was very much an active, serving deputy while Tallstar was ill. Meanwhile, Onestar's deputy ceremony technically should not have been recognized, because the proper words weren't spoken, and that'd still make Mudclaw the "rightful" leader. That obviously doesn't matter, however, because StarClan still granted Onestar nine lives, so they clearly welcomed him as WindClan's leader anyway. Your mention of the rebellion with the other Clans' help, though, is valid. It's not explicitly stated in the warrior code, but that's treason nonetheless, which is heavily frowned upon and illegal in their world.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Apr 13, 2018 11:47:57 GMT -5
We also can't forget that, as great of a guy as Firestar was, he was very, very heavily biased -- not only toward Tallstar, but Onewhisker, who he had a close friendship with for years. Firestar had a clear preference and could've also been drawing upon his own broken naming ceremony, so he may have been sympathetic toward Onewhisker's plight. We also saw plenty of times that he didn't like Mudclaw, which makes him even more biased. Firestar should've followed the warrior code, because it would trump Tallstar's word, but he didn't.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 13, 2018 12:23:44 GMT -5
I compared the Graystripes situation because we get direct confirmation from Starclan that either choice is valid (we never get this for Mudclaws situation but let’s just assume it did, unless you want to say they didn’t favor him and he was still valid somehow). Mudclaw feeling slighted is perfectly natural, deciding to perform a coup is another entirely. Especially when he hypocritically ends up indebting Windclan to Hawkfrost and agreeing to help him take power too(and who knows what ShadowClan wanted in return).
Mudclaw loses moral high ground when he started promising favors to obviously treacherous cats like Hawkfrost. Given his willingness to do that, at best he’s a useful idiot for Hawkfrost and at worst, one with just as little morality. Even with the generous interpretation, he doesn’t smell of roses.
If Mudclaw was really so popular, why not just tell it to Onestar straight up? Why not just pull a Needletail and say “Real Windclan goes this way”? This was all about him, not what Windclan as a whole needed or wanted.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Apr 13, 2018 13:10:30 GMT -5
I compared the Graystripes situation because we get direct confirmation from Starclan that either choice is valid (we never get this for Mudclaws situation but let’s just assume it did, unless you want to say they didn’t favor him and he was still valid somehow). Mudclaw feeling slighted is perfectly natural, deciding to perform a coup is another entirely. Especially when he hypocritically ends up indebting Windclan to Hawkfrost and agreeing to help him take power too(and who knows what ShadowClan wanted in return). Mudclaw loses moral high ground when he started promising favors to obviously treacherous cats like Hawkfrost. Given his willingness to do that, at best he’s a useful idiot for Hawkfrost and at worst, one with just as little morality. Even with the generous interpretation, he doesn’t smell of roses. If Mudclaw was really so popular, why not just tell it to Onestar straight up? Why not just pull a Needletail and say “Real Windclan goes this way”? This was all about him, not what Windclan as a whole needed or wanted. I definitely agree that it was treason...so Mudclaw wasn't right in that situation. And Onestar did offer that Mudclaw could remain deputy, but tbh, I think that was an insult. And Onestar was just as bad as Mudclaw later, which means he doesn't have high ground, either. Only a year or two later, he attacked attacked the stone hollow in the dead of the night for no reason, where there were kits and elders. Like how you compared Graystripe to Onestar, this comparison can be made between Mudclaw's attack on Onestar and Onestar's on the other Clans. He recruited RiverClan, just as Mudclaw recruited them and ShadowClan. It's not as though Onestar's warriors found ThunderClan scents found in WindClan territory, like we had multiple times with ThunderClan scenting WindClan in their territory...so who knows what he promised Leopardstar? Even then, a little bit later in the Forgotten Warrior, he yet again led an attack on ThunderClan and tried to ambush them via the tunnels yet again, but only Hollyleaf's training stopped it. Onestar is just as bad, if you ask me, and broke the warrior code far more times than Mudclaw did, which voided Tallstar's supposed vision, which may have been a fever dream due to being ill. Onestar also has no moral high ground and planned a literal war -- not a battle, but a war when he included RiverClan. They were pretty much slaughtering ThunderClan, which was why Hollyleaf sought help from Blackstar.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2018 13:14:08 GMT -5
We also can't forget that, as great of a guy as Firestar was, he was very, very heavily biased -- not only toward Tallstar, but Onewhisker, who he had a close friendship with for years. Firestar had a clear preference and could've also been drawing upon his own broken naming ceremony, so he may have been sympathetic toward Onewhisker's plight. We also saw plenty of times that he didn't like Mudclaw, which makes him even more biased. Firestar should've followed the warrior code, because it would trump Tallstar's word, but he didn't. As much as I like Firestar, I gotta agree.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 13, 2018 15:01:23 GMT -5
I compared the Graystripes situation because we get direct confirmation from Starclan that either choice is valid (we never get this for Mudclaws situation but let’s just assume it did, unless you want to say they didn’t favor him and he was still valid somehow). Mudclaw feeling slighted is perfectly natural, deciding to perform a coup is another entirely. Especially when he hypocritically ends up indebting Windclan to Hawkfrost and agreeing to help him take power too(and who knows what ShadowClan wanted in return). Mudclaw loses moral high ground when he started promising favors to obviously treacherous cats like Hawkfrost. Given his willingness to do that, at best he’s a useful idiot for Hawkfrost and at worst, one with just as little morality. Even with the generous interpretation, he doesn’t smell of roses. If Mudclaw was really so popular, why not just tell it to Onestar straight up? Why not just pull a Needletail and say “Real Windclan goes this way”? This was all about him, not what Windclan as a whole needed or wanted. I definitely agree that it was treason...so Mudclaw wasn't right in that situation. And Onestar did offer that Mudclaw could remain deputy, but tbh, I think that was an insult. And Onestar was just as bad as Mudclaw later, which means he doesn't have high ground, either. Only a year or two later, he attacked attacked the stone hollow in the dead of the night for no reason, where there were kits and elders. Like how you compared Graystripe to Onestar, this comparison can be made between Mudclaw's attack on Onestar and Onestar's on the other Clans. He recruited RiverClan, just as Mudclaw recruited them and ShadowClan. It's not as though Onestar's warriors found ThunderClan scents found in WindClan territory, like we had multiple times with ThunderClan scenting WindClan in their territory...so who knows what he promised Leopardstar? Even then, a little bit later in the Forgotten Warrior, he yet again led an attack on ThunderClan and tried to ambush them via the tunnels yet again, but only Hollyleaf's training stopped it. Onestar is just as bad, if you ask me, and broke the warrior code far more times than Mudclaw did, which voided Tallstar's supposed vision, which may have been a fever dream due to being ill. Onestar also has no moral high ground and planned a literal war -- not a battle, but a war when he included RiverClan. They were pretty much slaughtering ThunderClan, which was why Hollyleaf sought help from Blackstar. Oh, no doubt Onestar became awful later on. Probably just as bad as the vision Tallstar had. Onestar of course also had more chances to break the code due to actually being leader for a long period, whereas Mudclaw never got enough power. That being said, Mudclaw doesn't have the power of prescience, so it wasn't like he was getting rid of a bad leader before something could happen. By all indications, Onestar was a little weak, but that's not exactly all too horrible. At the time, Onestar did in fact have the moral high ground because he hadn't done anything yet. Onestar's later crimes are irrelevant to Mudclaw's in TNP. That all being said, hypothetical Mudstar would probably be just as bad as Onestar, but's not a good thing by any means either. He might be better in some areas due to maybe being more experienced, but he'd be far worse in others due to his gall (I can't imagine him being very good during AVOS, for example. He'd probably blow a fuse at the thought of cats going behind his back).
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Apr 13, 2018 16:02:32 GMT -5
I definitely agree that it was treason...so Mudclaw wasn't right in that situation. And Onestar did offer that Mudclaw could remain deputy, but tbh, I think that was an insult. And Onestar was just as bad as Mudclaw later, which means he doesn't have high ground, either. Only a year or two later, he attacked attacked the stone hollow in the dead of the night for no reason, where there were kits and elders. Like how you compared Graystripe to Onestar, this comparison can be made between Mudclaw's attack on Onestar and Onestar's on the other Clans. He recruited RiverClan, just as Mudclaw recruited them and ShadowClan. It's not as though Onestar's warriors found ThunderClan scents found in WindClan territory, like we had multiple times with ThunderClan scenting WindClan in their territory...so who knows what he promised Leopardstar? Even then, a little bit later in the Forgotten Warrior, he yet again led an attack on ThunderClan and tried to ambush them via the tunnels yet again, but only Hollyleaf's training stopped it. Onestar is just as bad, if you ask me, and broke the warrior code far more times than Mudclaw did, which voided Tallstar's supposed vision, which may have been a fever dream due to being ill. Onestar also has no moral high ground and planned a literal war -- not a battle, but a war when he included RiverClan. They were pretty much slaughtering ThunderClan, which was why Hollyleaf sought help from Blackstar. Oh, no doubt Onestar became awful later on. Probably just as bad as the vision Tallstar had. Onestar of course also had more chances to break the code due to actually being leader for a long period, whereas Mudclaw never got enough power. That being said, Mudclaw doesn't have the power of prescience, so it wasn't like he was getting rid of a bad leader before something could happen. By all indications, Onestar was a little weak, but that's not exactly all too horrible. At the time, Onestar did in fact have the moral high ground because he hadn't done anything yet. Onestar's later crimes are irrelevant to Mudclaw's in TNP. That all being said, hypothetical Mudstar would probably be just as bad as Onestar, but's not a good thing by any means either. He might be better in some areas due to maybe being more experienced, but he'd be far worse in others due to his gall (I can't imagine him being very good during AVOS, for example. He'd probably blow a fuse at the thought of cats going behind his back). Ah, yeah! I didn't mean to say that Mudclaw thought he was unseating a future bad leader, because he certainly wasn't. Well, he may have, but it would've been an assumption thing, since yeah, Onestar hadn't done anything yet by then. No, I mentioned what Onestar did further into leadership, because you said Mudclaw leading the rebellion as one of the reasons why he was in the wrong. Onestar did the exact same thing, if not worse, later on, so moral ground for either of them doesn't exist, and if it does, it's even. We don't know what Mudclaw promised Hawkfrost, and we don't know what Onestar said to persuade RiverClan (who are on the whole other side of the lake, so I don't even know what Leopardstar gets out of that, besides thinking she's knocking Firestar and his Clan down a peg or two. There's no mention if Onestar gave RiverClan a stretch of territory or anything, so I don't get why she was involved). Though like you also said, we don't know what Mudclaw would've done later if he had become leader. At present, however, we know the worst thing he did was lead a rebellion against a leader who was not rightfully chosen. The circumstances were definitely suspect, too, since like he said in the books, everyone knew Onestar and Firestar was close, while Brambleclaw was Firestar's Clanmate. It's the perfect setup. I do wonder how he would've reacted to the battles later, like with the Dark Forest. It makes me curious if he would've probably punished Breezepelt and the other traitors. I imagine he'd see it more as an embarrassment as Onestar, who defended them and declared none of his cats were traitors (which was hilarious in hindsight). I imagine Mudclaw might have defended them at first, and then been furious and let it known they were punished somehow. Him during AVOS would be interesting, since I can't see him having sired a kit by a kittypet. Then again, we never thought Onestar would, either sooooo... lol
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 13, 2018 16:18:24 GMT -5
Mudclaw may or may not have punished the traitors. On the one hand, you'd think that given his hatred of Brokenstar, he'd be more willing to do that. On the other, Mudclaw was perfectly willing to sacrifice his principles and the code, so I could also see him smugly declaring "They should be proud of becoming stronger for their clan" or something like that, and generally just being happy that in the end, he got a bunch of well trained warriors; a good deal.
I'm not saying he would have fathered Darktail(that happened prior), but rather that he might actually be willing to negotiate with Darktail or do other really shady things. Heck, maybe Darktail ingratiates himself with him and plays him like Hawkfrost did. Of course, it's also possible that his hatred of rogues just solidifies his resolve and makes him not break in the battle.
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