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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 26, 2018 21:06:37 GMT -5
But, wait. Okay. She's perfectly justified doing this. Because she is 100 percent right. Crowfeather was just watching these warriors fight and not doing a single thing. Family or not, she's trying to break up her clanmate from fighting in a border skirmish like an immature idiot. Crowfeather is worse here. Leafpool being honest makes it a "claptrap?" She did love him. That happened. She chose her clan, but that does not mean she never loved him. The last thing she wants to see is Lionblaze torn apart, and she's assuming Crowfeather does not want to see Breezepelt torn apart, like a father kind of should. That scene made me like her more, actually. Trying to break it up wasn't a problem. Going in there and pulling the "they're your kids!" card however was awful. Crowfeather doesn't even know them, why the sudden shunting of that on him? Seems a bit late to suddenly start wanting his support when it was clear that it wasn't important for the last few years. I have no idea why she's trying to bring it up when by all rights, they're not Crowfeather's kids in any way save blood. There's a time and place to talk about that. Talking about it right after she's just pulled the "they're your kids!" card and Crowfeather trying to end the conversation doesn't help though. The fact that Crowfeather is an immature brat doesn't excuse Leafpool from acting the same way during that scene. She's the most mature of all of them in this scene. Even if Crowfeather isn't entitled to care for Lionblaze, he sure is responsible for reprimanding Breezepelt for his actions. Like it or not, she's right. By blood, these two cats are his sons. The secret was out for moons by then. It's truth now and she still has a point. Crowfeather was watching them rip into eachother. She's literally being honest. They are his kids. Leafpool didn't find out she was pregant until well after they had split. And even if they were not his kids, standing there watching is far more disgusting than Leafpool trying to stop a mindless fight between her son and the son of the cat she loved once.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 26, 2018 21:23:10 GMT -5
Trying to break it up wasn't a problem. Going in there and pulling the "they're your kids!" card however was awful. Crowfeather doesn't even know them, why the sudden shunting of that on him? Seems a bit late to suddenly start wanting his support when it was clear that it wasn't important for the last few years. I have no idea why she's trying to bring it up when by all rights, they're not Crowfeather's kids in any way save blood. There's a time and place to talk about that. Talking about it right after she's just pulled the "they're your kids!" card and Crowfeather trying to end the conversation doesn't help though. The fact that Crowfeather is an immature brat doesn't excuse Leafpool from acting the same way during that scene. She's the most mature of all of them in this scene. Even if Crowfeather isn't entitled to care for Lionblaze, he sure is responsible for reprimanding Breezepelt for his actions. Like it or not, she's right. By blood, these two cats are his sons. The secret was out for moons by then. It's truth now and she still has a point. Crowfeather was watching them rip into eachother. She's literally being honest. They are his kids. Leafpool didn't find out she was pregant until well after they had split. And even if they were not his kids, standing there watching is far more disgusting than Leafpool trying to stop a mindless fight between her son and the son of the cat she loved once. The fact that they're his sons is totally irrelevant when one of them is his son in name only. Her bringing it up makes it come off as if she's too blind to see that Crow has his own life now and she doesn't factor into it. She has absolutely no point, Crowfeather has no obligation to Lionblaze. Now, if Leafpool had made a point like "You're just watching them fight over nothing!", that'd be something, but with the way she brings up the kid card, it sounds like the only reason he should care is because of that. That in itself is poor reasoning because Crowfeather has never known Lionblaze as a son nor the vice a versa. The fact that Crowfeather is a distant and cold jerk doesn't change Leafpool's interference here from sounding deluded. It's effectively the equivalent of Jake running out of nowhere when Firestar and Scourge were going toe to toe and saying "Wait, he's your brother!" Well, that's great to know, but they've never known each other as one and in context of their lives, so the word brother means nothing.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 26, 2018 21:27:45 GMT -5
She's the most mature of all of them in this scene. Even if Crowfeather isn't entitled to care for Lionblaze, he sure is responsible for reprimanding Breezepelt for his actions. Like it or not, she's right. By blood, these two cats are his sons. The secret was out for moons by then. It's truth now and she still has a point. Crowfeather was watching them rip into eachother. She's literally being honest. They are his kids. Leafpool didn't find out she was pregant until well after they had split. And even if they were not his kids, standing there watching is far more disgusting than Leafpool trying to stop a mindless fight between her son and the son of the cat she loved once. The fact that they're his sons is totally irrelevant when one of them is his son in name only. Her bringing it up makes it come off as if she's too blind to see that Crow has his own life now and she doesn't factor into it. She has absolutely no point, Crowfeather has no obligation to Lionblaze. Now, if Leafpool had made a point like "You're just watching them fight over nothing!", that'd be something, but with the way she brings up the kid card, it sounds like the only reason he should care is because of that. That in itself is poor reasoning because Crowfeather has never known Lionblaze as a son nor the vice a versa. The fact that Crowfeather is a distant and cold jerk doesn't change Leafpool's interference here from sounding deluded. It's effectively the equivalent of Jake running out of nowhere when Firestar and Scourge were going toe to toe and saying "Wait, he's your brother!" Well, that's great to know, but they've never known each other as one and in context of their lives, so the word brother means nothing. We'll just have to agree to disagree then, because I found nothing here to judge Leafpool for, especially when she was being the only sensible cat, bringing up her kits or not, and being the one to try and stop the immature fighting while Crowfeather watched :/
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 26, 2018 21:42:40 GMT -5
You both have good points. Whereas Leapool's words make no sense, considering she never told Crowfeather the truth from the start, and was planning to but didn't, again she should have. Now suddenly he's in the spotlight with the whole charade, on the other hand, Crowfeather shouldn't be instigating a fight between his clan mate and another clan cat, who happens to be their sons. Honestly, no one is in the right here, but Crow has horrible morals while Leaf is just horribly written. Her case in the point seems out of place, meek, but Crow is just...a jerk, lol.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 26, 2018 22:04:35 GMT -5
I hate Crowfeather, he has nothing to do with my assessment of Leafpool's situation. It could have been Brokenstar or Firestar for all it matters.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Mar 26, 2018 22:24:09 GMT -5
Friendly reminder that they're only her kits by blood and not bond. She gave that up and has no right to call them that let alone Crowfeather's.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2018 11:00:46 GMT -5
I'm thinking that this is another parallel that I've been thinking of for Warriors, and I'll keep it short. While Leafpool broke the medicine cat code in having kits, she accepts the blame and tries to move on. But when Mapleshade betrayed the Clan, she pretty much thinks she's done no wrong and tries to kill the cats involved in her exile (who aren't entirely innocent in the matter but I still think come off a bit better than Mapleshade).
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 27, 2018 13:41:15 GMT -5
But the thing is they the situations are quite different.
>>Mapleshade's story takes place in the past before Kittypet leaders are even a thing. >>Firestar is the first kittypet leader, does something impossible, the clans are much more accepting of things in the current timeline than they are back then apparently.
>>Mapleshade only broke one rule, being with another tom from a different clan, she could have simply switched clans to be with him or vice versa. >>Leafpool is a medicine cat, and should have known better, she took an oath, she broke two major rules, her crime is much more severe.
>>Mapleshade's kits, who were innocent, were also punished, her crime was much more severe because of the clan bias against the father of the kits. They ended up all drowning. >>While Leafpool's kits made it to adulthood, and Leafpool punished herself, she wasn't punished by her leader.
>>Mapleshade lost her kits, her mat, her home, and was left to rot in a ditch. >>Leafpool was ridiculed but in the end got everything back, her position, the love of her kits, and even an apology from her ex.
>>Mapleshade's mate cheated on her, so even if she did move that would have been awkward. >>Crowfeather at least broke off things with Leafpool before he moved on with Nightlcoud.
>>StarClan sent a sign, Ravenwing, the medicine cat, ratted her out and knowingly made Maple and her kits suffer, she had no one to defend her either. >>StarClan was on Leafpool's side, Leafpool herself was the medicine cat and could hide her pregnancy, and also had Squirrelflight to help cover her up. Both of them were daughters of Firestar, Squirrel was Bramble's mate, who was deputy and also a hero from the journey and had credibility.
>>Mapleshade's lie was actually unconfirmed based assumptions that only lasted a couple of moons. >>Leafpool's lie lasted for years and unsanctified the trust of Bramble and Squirrel's relationship.
>>Mapleshade literally hallucinates her kits telling her to commit murder. >>Leafpool at most only gets Holly threatening her, who later makes up for that.
>>Appledusk throws Mapleshade under the bus despite owning up to being with her, he still blamed her for everything, apologizes to his clan but not her for lying and cheating. >>Crowfeather denied Leafpool's claims at first, understandable because he didn't even know about the kits, but in the end apologized to Leafpool.
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Post by Rainstorm1026 on Mar 27, 2018 22:04:36 GMT -5
Even the argument that her kits hating her is punishment enough doesn't really work because unlike with Graystripe whose mate actually died, her kin was never in a life-threatening situation.) What about the time Squirrelflight's crazy ex tried to burn them to a crisp because he was under the impression they were Squirrelflight's?
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 27, 2018 22:18:12 GMT -5
Even the argument that her kits hating her is punishment enough doesn't really work because unlike with Graystripe whose mate actually died, her kin was never in a life-threatening situation.) What about the time Squirrelflight's crazy ex tried to burn them to a crisp because he was under the impression they were Squirrelflight's? Leafpool never even knew that happened, IIRC. Hard for it to be a punishment in that case. Also that was more screwing over Squirrelflight than Leafpool, in all honesty.
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Post by Showers on Mar 27, 2018 23:46:42 GMT -5
What about the time Squirrelflight's crazy ex tried to burn them to a crisp because he was under the impression they were Squirrelflight's? Leafpool never even knew that happened, IIRC. Hard for it to be a punishment in that case. Also that was more screwing over Squirrelflight than Leafpool, in all honesty. except squirrel and leaf share everything, it wouldn't make sense for leaf not to know about this event
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 0:15:43 GMT -5
But the thing is they the situations are quite different. >>Mapleshade's story takes place in the past before Kittypet leaders are even a thing. >>Firestar is the first kittypet leader, does something impossible, the clans are much more accepting of things in the current timeline than they are back then apparently. >>Mapleshade only broke one rule, being with another tom from a different clan, she could have simply switched clans to be with him or vice versa. >>Leafpool is a medicine cat, and should have known better, she took an oath, she broke two major rules, her crime is much more severe. >>Mapleshade's kits, who were innocent, were also punished, her crime was much more severe because of the clan bias against the father of the kits. They ended up all drowning. >>While Leafpool's kits made it to adulthood, and Leafpool punished herself, she wasn't punished by her leader. >>Mapleshade lost her kits, her mat, her home, and was left to rot in a ditch. >>Leafpool was ridiculed but in the end got everything back, her position, the love of her kits, and even an apology from her ex. >>Mapleshade's mate cheated on her, so even if she did move that would have been awkward. >>Crowfeather at least broke off things with Leafpool before he moved on with Nightlcoud. >>StarClan sent a sign, Ravenwing, the medicine cat, ratted her out and knowingly made Maple and her kits suffer, she had no one to defend her either. >>StarClan was on Leafpool's side, Leafpool herself was the medicine cat and could hide her pregnancy, and also had Squirrelflight to help cover her up. Both of them were daughters of Firestar, Squirrel was Bramble's mate, who was deputy and also a hero from the journey and had credibility. >>Mapleshade's lie was actually unconfirmed based assumptions that only lasted a couple of moons. >>Leafpool's lie lasted for years and unsanctified the trust of Bramble and Squirrel's relationship. >>Mapleshade literally hallucinates her kits telling her to commit murder. >>Leafpool at most only gets Holly threatening her, who later makes up for that. >>Appledusk throws Mapleshade under the bus despite owning up to being with her, he still blamed her for everything, apologizes to his clan but not her for lying and cheating. >>Crowfeather denied Leafpool's claims at first, understandable because he didn't even know about the kits, but in the end apologized to Leafpool. >> Can't argue with the first one, since that's true. >> Now this is unfair. You could say the same thing about Mapleshade, that she too should have known better. Leafpool should have known better, yes, but so should have Mapleshade. She's been taught the warrior code too. She didn't just break one rule; she betrayed her clan's trust in her and used cats, making her kits grow up in a lie like Leafpool did with her own. They were both just as shocked as the clan when she told them the truth. Why does Mapleshade get a free pass just because she's a warrior for lying? >> Leafpool's own kits were also punished. Not indirectly, but they were punished. Jayfeather and Lionblaze have been judged for moons for being half-clan. Hollyleaf ran off for a few moons and came back, and later on died. Jayfeather also was accused of murder from Dawnpelt, and he thought it was because he's half-clan that the Clans lost faith in him, and he lost his job for a while. Crowfeather disowned the Three, which affected them since they thought their father would be proud of them when he wasn't. >> Leafpool was still punished, nonetheless. She lost the trust in her clan, had to work hard to earn it back, was mentally abused by Crowfeather, the Three hated her, and Hollyleaf wanted her to die. And what was she supposed to do? Pretend that nothing happened? She had to be punished somehow, and Leafpool knew she wasn't going to get away with it. Would you rather she isn't punished at all..?? >> Mapleshade may have lost everything but she still had Myler for support. He cared about her and was concerned about her, but she rejected him. She was on her own at this point and it was her own fault. It's not her fault that she was exiled, no one can deny that, but she had a chance to feel loved and cared for. She lost that the moment she left Myler. >> Again, Leafpool got everything back because she worked hard for it. >> Crowfeather only broke things off with Leafpool 'cause he used Nightcloud to gain his reputation back. >> StarClan also sent a sign to the Three about their parents. In Sunrise, StarClan helped Jayfeather figure out the truth about their father and Hollyleaf discovered that Leafpool was her mother. >> StarClan wasn't thrilled with Leafpool if I remember correctly. Spottedleaf screamed at her. They were only "on Leafpool's side" because she had the Three, but I guess I admit that it's bias as to why they supported her because of poor writing. >> What do you mean Mapleshade's lie wasn't confirmed? It was?? Surely Appledusk praising the kits and the shapes of them compared to him were enough for proof?? In The Ultimate Guide it was said that the medicine cat (and this was before her Novella came out) figured out the father by their shapes and sizes matching Appledusk. Ravenwing had all the proof he needed to confirm the truth, and StarClan's omen only helped him figure it out. >> As for Appledusk blaming Mapleshade for anything, as awful as he was, he did it so he'd still gain the trust of his Clan. And he should apologize to his clan because he was the one who betrayed them. It's also the same situation with Crowfeather and why he neglected his ThunderClan kits as well as mentally hurt Leafpool. I'm not giving them a free pass, but they both hurt Mapleshade and Leafpool because they wanted RiverClan to trust them again. They were at their mercy. All I'm getting from this is that Mapleshade has had a harder life compared to Leafpool... which I will admit is true but she wouldn't have had this happen to her, if she had just accepted Myler's support from the start. If she had just accepted that someone wanted to care for her she might have still never acted the way she did.. she was terrible. Mapleshade is a monster. I don't care what she has gone through. Mapleshade betrayed her Clan and murdered cats. A bad past doesn't excuse that.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 28, 2018 0:49:40 GMT -5
Mapleshade being a monster doesn't preclude her from being more interesting as a fallen and cruel avenger as compared to Leafpool.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 0:53:04 GMT -5
Mapleshade being a monster doesn't preclude her from being more interesting as a fallen and cruel avenger as compared to Leafpool. And that's fine. I've always liked Leafpool for some reason, I never really knew why. I think it's just because she always stayed so positive and loved her clan, despite everything. Mapleshade on the other hand... was just given some poorly written sob story and her Novella ruined her for me.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 28, 2018 3:28:54 GMT -5
But the thing is they the situations are quite different. >>Mapleshade's story takes place in the past before Kittypet leaders are even a thing. >>Firestar is the first kittypet leader, does something impossible, the clans are much more accepting of things in the current timeline than they are back then apparently. >>Mapleshade only broke one rule, being with another tom from a different clan, she could have simply switched clans to be with him or vice versa. >>Leafpool is a medicine cat, and should have known better, she took an oath, she broke two major rules, her crime is much more severe. >>Mapleshade's kits, who were innocent, were also punished, her crime was much more severe because of the clan bias against the father of the kits. They ended up all drowning. >>While Leafpool's kits made it to adulthood, and Leafpool punished herself, she wasn't punished by her leader. >>Mapleshade lost her kits, her mat, her home, and was left to rot in a ditch. >>Leafpool was ridiculed but in the end got everything back, her position, the love of her kits, and even an apology from her ex. >>Mapleshade's mate cheated on her, so even if she did move that would have been awkward. >>Crowfeather at least broke off things with Leafpool before he moved on with Nightlcoud. >>StarClan sent a sign, Ravenwing, the medicine cat, ratted her out and knowingly made Maple and her kits suffer, she had no one to defend her either. >>StarClan was on Leafpool's side, Leafpool herself was the medicine cat and could hide her pregnancy, and also had Squirrelflight to help cover her up. Both of them were daughters of Firestar, Squirrel was Bramble's mate, who was deputy and also a hero from the journey and had credibility. >>Mapleshade's lie was actually unconfirmed based assumptions that only lasted a couple of moons. >>Leafpool's lie lasted for years and unsanctified the trust of Bramble and Squirrel's relationship. >>Mapleshade literally hallucinates her kits telling her to commit murder. >>Leafpool at most only gets Holly threatening her, who later makes up for that. >>Appledusk throws Mapleshade under the bus despite owning up to being with her, he still blamed her for everything, apologizes to his clan but not her for lying and cheating. >>Crowfeather denied Leafpool's claims at first, understandable because he didn't even know about the kits, but in the end apologized to Leafpool. >> Can't argue with the first one, since that's true. >> Now this is unfair. You could say the same thing about Mapleshade, that she too should have known better. Leafpool should have known better, yes, but so should have Mapleshade. She's been taught the warrior code too. She didn't just break one rule; she betrayed her clan's trust in her and used cats, making her kits grow up in a lie like Leafpool did with her own. They were both just as shocked as the clan when she told them the truth. Why does Mapleshade get a free pass just because she's a warrior for lying? >> Leafpool's own kits were also punished. Not indirectly, but they were punished. Jayfeather and Lionblaze have been judged for moons for being half-clan. Hollyleaf ran off for a few moons and came back, and later on died. Jayfeather also was accused of murder from Dawnpelt, and he thought it was because he's half-clan that the Clans lost faith in him, and he lost his job for a while. Crowfeather disowned the Three, which affected them since they thought their father would be proud of them when he wasn't. >> Leafpool was still punished, nonetheless. She lost the trust in her clan, had to work hard to earn it back, was mentally abused by Crowfeather, the Three hated her, and Hollyleaf wanted her to die. And what was she supposed to do? Pretend that nothing happened? She had to be punished somehow, and Leafpool knew she wasn't going to get away with it. Would you rather she isn't punished at all..?? >> Mapleshade may have lost everything but she still had Myler for support. He cared about her and was concerned about her, but she rejected him. She was on her own at this point and it was her own fault. It's not her fault that she was exiled, no one can deny that, but she had a chance to feel loved and cared for. She lost that the moment she left Myler. >> Again, Leafpool got everything back because she worked hard for it. >> Crowfeather only broke things off with Leafpool 'cause he used Nightcloud to gain his reputation back. >> StarClan also sent a sign to the Three about their parents. In Sunrise, StarClan helped Jayfeather figure out the truth about their father and Hollyleaf discovered that Leafpool was her mother. >> StarClan wasn't thrilled with Leafpool if I remember correctly. Spottedleaf screamed at her. They were only "on Leafpool's side" because she had the Three, but I guess I admit that it's bias as to why they supported her because of poor writing. >> What do you mean Mapleshade's lie wasn't confirmed? It was?? Surely Appledusk praising the kits and the shapes of them compared to him were enough for proof?? In The Ultimate Guide it was said that the medicine cat (and this was before her Novella came out) figured out the father by their shapes and sizes matching Appledusk. Ravenwing had all the proof he needed to confirm the truth, and StarClan's omen only helped him figure it out. >> As for Appledusk blaming Mapleshade for anything, as awful as he was, he did it so he'd still gain the trust of his Clan. And he should apologize to his clan because he was the one who betrayed them. It's also the same situation with Crowfeather and why he neglected his ThunderClan kits as well as mentally hurt Leafpool. I'm not giving them a free pass, but they both hurt Mapleshade and Leafpool because they wanted RiverClan to trust them again. They were at their mercy. All I'm getting from this is that Mapleshade has had a harder life compared to Leafpool... which I will admit is true but she wouldn't have had this happen to her, if she had just accepted Myler's support from the start. If she had just accepted that someone wanted to care for her she might have still never acted the way she did.. she was terrible. Mapleshade is a monster. I don't care what she has gone through. Mapleshade betrayed her Clan and murdered cats. A bad past doesn't excuse that. Mapleshade didn't get a free pass, but her situation can be handled easier than Leafpool's. Leafpool not only made an oath to her clan but to StarClan as well. If she were a normal warrior like Mapleshade, her being in love with Crow and being pregnant with his kits could have been solved way easier. Like Maple, she could have simply switch clans, but in the end, she is a medicine cat, she is dedicated not only to her clan but StarClan. She is supposed to be a sacred figure in her clan that receives messages from their form of "religious deities". Why do you think she and Crow came up with the running away solution in the end? There is no luxury of an option for them like Maple had. Blue could have joined RiverClan if she wanted, Silver could have joined Thunder, Dove, in the end, joined Shadow, Windflight's parents eventually settled in Thunder, etc. Leafpool's isn't as simple from the mere fact that she is a medicine cat. Jay, Lion and Holly's punishments were not severe. Let me clarify, they could have gone about their lives without the truth getting out if not for Holly. Ashfur's death wasn't even investigated after Holly ran away, even if she had stayed, no cat would have known the truth but Leafpool. She didn't tell the clan before, I doubt she'd tell them even if she had stayed. On top of that they weren't outed by outside forced, now if Ashfur had been the one to tell the truth, yeah I can see this comparison 100%, because it would have been similar to Ravenwing, but he didn't. Maple's kits were only like 3 moons old when the truth got out, and it was only based on assumption, even StarClan ratted her out, Leaf's kits would have had the luxury of living out their entire lives scott free, if Holly had kept her mouth shut like she originally intended after killing Ashfur. Heck, she could have gotten away with murder sooner. Leafpool punished herself, not her leader punishing her. I know people say that the blame goes back to the leaders in the end, but that's not the case with Leaf, however, it is the case with Maple. Oakstar was already bias, Ravenwing and the rest of the clan as well, making his punishment much more severe. Leafpool was Firestar's daughter, and she stepped down from her position, making it so we don't even know what he would have done if she hadn't. Would Firestar had taken her position, does he even have the right too? WOuld he have exiled her like Mapleshde? We don't know because of her punishing herself, which leaves the level of severity of her punishment by authority unknown. Maple on the other hand, lost her home, her kits, her mate, and was even exiled from River too, she had no one, she lost everything. Leaf still had her clan, still had Squirrel, and did eventually get everything back, she had the chance to redeem herself, Maple didn't. Do you honestly think Mapleshade was in the sane state of mind to want support from a kittypet? Again, this is a different time period, cats back then are not as accepting of kittypets compared to the current times in the clan. Where a kittypet can join a clan, eventually become a leader, and even save all of them on several occasions, coming out as a hero. Sandstorm is the perfect example of how much the cats have changed after Firestar became well known among the clans. To Mapleshade, a queen who became mentally unstable, and was grieving after her loss, her rejecting a stranger like Myler, is understandable, especially because he's a kittypet. Myler can't redeem Mapleshade, the best he could have gave her is a peaceful death, and not dying alone. Mapleshade never had the option to get everything back because she had no clan home anymore. No, he didn't, he broke things off with Leafpool because she chose her clan over him, so he moved on with Nightcloud. They were no longer officially together, he still used Nigtcloud yes, but he didn't cheat on Leafpool like Appledusk did Reed and Maple. Hollyleaf discovering who her parents are isn't StarClan interfering, that's her own conclusions. Also, this is after they find out the truth by Squirrelflight against Ashfur. So, of course, they'll start searching for the answers at that point, otherwise, StarClan would have been silent about everything. Also remember that StarClan told Leaf and Squirrel that Leaf "must" have the kits in the Clan, hence why they heavily sided with them in hiding the secret in the first place. They weren't thrilled, no, but they did side with her because they needed the three. And in the end covered for her and supported her. I already reposted the passage before, where she and Raven are talking, I don't feel like doing it again. So to summarize, Ravenwing never got an actual admission from Mapleshade. He was making his conclusions based on his own assumptions, even Mapleshade pointed that out. Unless you have any solid proof of something there's still no way you can confirm it, it's like in court, innocent until proven guilty. Mapleshade didn't confirm anyone suspicions until Oakstar forced her to. And again, this only lasted a couple of moons, everyone assumed the father was Birchface, just like how everyone assumed Appledusk was the father later when Ravenwing told the clan. Nothing was proven until Mapleshade did admit who was the father. On the other hand Leafpool didn't have to prove anything for years, she went about her work normally, scott free, while Squirrelflight raised her kits. She gave up the right to raise her kits, yes, but they ddin't have to worry about being judged and ridiculed at a young age like Mapleshade's kits. That was one of the reasons why they lied to the clan, so the three could make it to adulthood normally and they did until Holly told the secret. Appledusk knew from the start Mapleshade was going to have his kits, he even met them knowing they were his kits. Crowfeather never knew Leafpool was pregnant, he never knew she had their ktis their whole time, moons later when he builds up his new life and trust with WindClan. Then suddenly he has three other kits in ThunderClan. Appledusk never even asked his kits their name, but he was pleased that they were strong healthy kits and was pleased to be their father. But when the light was on him, he blamed Mapleshade for everything. Crowfeather didn't have to blame Leafpool, he simply denied association with her. Why should Mapleshade be obligated to accept Myler though? Would I have liked her to be with another cat after everything she's been through, sure. But she's not obligated to accept another cat, let alone a stranger and a kittypet. That won't bring her kits back or make her feel at ease.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 28, 2018 3:34:41 GMT -5
Mapleshade being a monster doesn't preclude her from being more interesting as a fallen and cruel avenger as compared to Leafpool. And that's fine. I've always liked Leafpool for some reason, I never really knew why. I think it's just because she always stayed so positive and loved her clan, despite everything. Mapleshade on the other hand... was just given some poorly written sob story and her Novella ruined her for me. Can we stop referring to Maple's past as a sob story? That's not the appropriate word. Mapleshade didn't want sympathy from other cats, she knew what she did, and was happy she ended up in the Dark Forest. Her backstory isn't made up either, it's an actual thing that happened to her character, and whether or not she got sympathy for it is up to the readers, even if it wasn't the intention. Just because people feel sympathy for her doesn't change her actions and how she ended up the way she did. Just because more people sympathize with her over Leafpool doesn't mean you should simply disregard what she went through by using that term. It's no different than people that call Breezepelt an emo kid to brush off the fact that his father neglected and verbally abused him.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Mar 28, 2018 10:03:30 GMT -5
Leafpool didnt earn anything back honestly. She just had it given back. She moped about it while her sister took it like a warrior.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 10:13:43 GMT -5
And that's fine. I've always liked Leafpool for some reason, I never really knew why. I think it's just because she always stayed so positive and loved her clan, despite everything. Mapleshade on the other hand... was just given some poorly written sob story and her Novella ruined her for me. Can we stop referring to Maple's past as a sob story? That's not the appropriate word. Mapleshade didn't want sympathy from other cats, she knew what she did, and was happy she ended up in the Dark Forest. Her backstory isn't made up either, it's an actual thing that happened to her character, and whether or not she got sympathy for it is up to the readers, even if it wasn't the intention. Just because people feel sympathy for her doesn't change her actions and how she ended up the way she did. Just because more people sympathize with her over Leafpool doesn't mean you should simply disregard what she went through by using that term. It's no different than people that call Breezepelt an emo kid to brush off the fact that his father neglected and verbally abused him. I can call her story whatever I want because it's my opinion, just like how you like Mapleshade, well I can call her novella a sob story. It's a fictional story, what I call it shouldn't matter to people. Cats didn't support her and she acted like the victim and everything bad happened to her. What else could it be? We're gonna have to just agree to disagree then. Any other debates responding to me I won't reply, kinda tired of them and I have work today.
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Post by Kibui on Mar 28, 2018 11:39:38 GMT -5
Even the argument that her kits hating her is punishment enough doesn't really work because unlike with Graystripe whose mate actually died, her kin was never in a life-threatening situation.) What about the time Squirrelflight's crazy ex tried to burn them to a crisp because he was under the impression they were Squirrelflight's? That doesn't have to do with Leafpool getting punished for breaking two codes though. I admit my argument was worded quite poorly here but what I meant is not that the three were never in a dangerous situation (because they were, plenty of times actually) but that her kits were never endangered as a direct result or official punishment of her code breaking. E.g. Ashfur didn't try to burn the three to punish Leafpool - he had beef with Squirrelflight
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 28, 2018 12:37:03 GMT -5
Can we stop referring to Maple's past as a sob story? That's not the appropriate word. Mapleshade didn't want sympathy from other cats, she knew what she did, and was happy she ended up in the Dark Forest. Her backstory isn't made up either, it's an actual thing that happened to her character, and whether or not she got sympathy for it is up to the readers, even if it wasn't the intention. Just because people feel sympathy for her doesn't change her actions and how she ended up the way she did. Just because more people sympathize with her over Leafpool doesn't mean you should simply disregard what she went through by using that term. It's no different than people that call Breezepelt an emo kid to brush off the fact that his father neglected and verbally abused him. I can call her story whatever I want because it's my opinion, just like how you like Mapleshade, well I can call her novella a sob story. It's a fictional story, what I call it shouldn't matter to people. Cats didn't support her and she acted like the victim and everything bad happened to her. What else could it be? We're gonna have to just agree to disagree then. Any other debates responding to me I won't reply, kinda tired of them and I have work today. Having an opinion doesn't mean you can't be insensitive. But okay whatever floats your boat. Also whether I like or hate a character doesn't change anything. I hate Breezepelt's guts, but I think it's wrong how people disregard how he was neglected and verbally abused. I don't care for Blossomfall either, but I'm the same case with her. I like Mapleshade, as a villain. I like that she did bad things, I'm glad she's in the DF, big whoop. Doesn't mean I'm going to call her story a "sob story" just to disregard what she's been through. She was a queen, who lost her kits, her clan, her mate, everything. You don't see me basically accusing you of only being mad at people for sympathizing with Mapleshade and not Leafpool instead just because of you admittedly liking Leaf and hating Maple. Do you? Also, jsyk, Mapleshade is a victim. She just isn't the only one.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 28, 2018 12:40:23 GMT -5
What about the time Squirrelflight's crazy ex tried to burn them to a crisp because he was under the impression they were Squirrelflight's? That doesn't have to do with Leafpool getting punished for breaking two codes though. I admit my argument was worded quite poorly here but what I meant is not that the three were never in a dangerous situation (because they were, plenty of times actually) but that her kits were never endangered as a direct result or official punishment of her code breaking. E.g. Ashfur didn't try to burn the three to punish Leafpool - he had beef with Squirrelflight I'm also miffed at the fact that people are trying to compare the events of three kits drowning on the same level of severity as three adult warriors possibly burning alive?? Three kits, who are innocent, and don't even know how to do a lot of things let alone didn't live much of a life yet. Their deaths are being put on par with adults cats that earned their warrior names ages ago and lived a pretty good life to that point, scott free. How are either of these situations even comparable? Also in truth, the only cat blocking the three and Squirrel was Ashfur. It was a Four vs One scenario, the fact that they didn't just overpower Ashfur in someway to try and get to safety is ridiculously stupid especially when their lives are on the line and they have three capable warriors. Kits have a much less fighting chance at survival than warriors or a fully grown cat in general.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 28, 2018 12:57:12 GMT -5
That doesn't have to do with Leafpool getting punished for breaking two codes though. I admit my argument was worded quite poorly here but what I meant is not that the three were never in a dangerous situation (because they were, plenty of times actually) but that her kits were never endangered as a direct result or official punishment of her code breaking. E.g. Ashfur didn't try to burn the three to punish Leafpool - he had beef with Squirrelflight I'm also miffed at the fact that people are trying to compare the events of three kits drowning on the same level of severity as three adult warriors possibly burning alive?? Three kits, who are innocent, and don't even know how to do a lot of things let alone didn't live much of a life yet. Their deaths are being put on par with adults cats that earned their warrior names ages ago and lived a pretty good life to that point, scott free. How are either of these situations even comparable? Also in truth, the only cat blocking the three and Squirrel was Ashfur. It was a Four vs One scenario, the fact that they didn't just overpower Ashfur in someway to try and get to safety is ridiculously stupid especially when their lives are on the line and they have three capable warriors. Kits have a much less fighting chance at survival than warriors or a fully grown cat in general. Squirrelflight was wounded and the Three were on the other side of the branch. If they tried anything funny, Ashfur could just shove the branch and then that'd be the end of it.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 28, 2018 12:59:01 GMT -5
I'm also miffed at the fact that people are trying to compare the events of three kits drowning on the same level of severity as three adult warriors possibly burning alive?? Three kits, who are innocent, and don't even know how to do a lot of things let alone didn't live much of a life yet. Their deaths are being put on par with adults cats that earned their warrior names ages ago and lived a pretty good life to that point, scott free. How are either of these situations even comparable? Also in truth, the only cat blocking the three and Squirrel was Ashfur. It was a Four vs One scenario, the fact that they didn't just overpower Ashfur in someway to try and get to safety is ridiculously stupid especially when their lives are on the line and they have three capable warriors. Kits have a much less fighting chance at survival than warriors or a fully grown cat in general. Squirrelflight was wounded and the Three were on the other side of the branch. If they tried anything funny, Ashfur could just shove the branch and then that'd be the end of it. Good point. So why didn't any of them at least confront him once they were to safety or tell Firestar the truth sooner? Even if Ashfur knew that Squirrel wasn't the real mother of the kits, he had no proof, and didn't even know the real parents at the time and never did at his death either.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 15:34:53 GMT -5
I can call her story whatever I want because it's my opinion, just like how you like Mapleshade, well I can call her novella a sob story. It's a fictional story, what I call it shouldn't matter to people. Cats didn't support her and she acted like the victim and everything bad happened to her. What else could it be? We're gonna have to just agree to disagree then. Any other debates responding to me I won't reply, kinda tired of them and I have work today. Having an opinion doesn't mean you can't be insensitive. But okay whatever floats your boat. Also whether I like or hate a character doesn't change anything. I hate Breezepelt's guts, but I think it's wrong how people disregard how he was neglected and verbally abused. I don't care for Blossomfall either, but I'm the same case with her. I like Mapleshade, as a villain. I like that she did bad things, I'm glad she's in the DF, big whoop. Doesn't mean I'm going to call her story a "sob story" just to disregard what she's been through. She was a queen, who lost her kits, her clan, her mate, everything. You don't see me basically accusing you of only being mad at people for sympathizing with Mapleshade and not Leafpool instead just because of you admittedly liking Leaf and hating Maple. Do you? Also, jsyk, Mapleshade is a victim. She just isn't the only one. People don't ignore that Breezepelt was abused. I'm not ignoring the fact that Mapeshade was abused. They understand, including I, why they became the way they did. I've already explained multiple times why I don't agree with them or their actions. I am "insensitive" with these cats because they've killed others who didn't deserve to die. Once they murdered (Breezepelt tried to kill a pregnant queen for crying out loud) They lose my sympathy. I felt bad for Mapleshade when she was exiled, but I didn't feel bad for her when she started to kill cats. I stopped feeling bad for Breezepelt when he tried to kill Poppyfrost to frame Jayfeather. They're little monsters who deserve the Dark Forest. I was never angry that people sympathized with these cats, but I feel like it's wrong how people say these cats deserve StarClan when they don't. They act like Breeze and Maple are victims when they're not. They committed crimes. Even attempting a crime is just as bad as committing. My problem with MV is that no one supported her. It's poorly written how everyone was unsympathetic and unsupportive to her. Not even Darkstar was willing to give her a chance. I don't mind Breezepelt too much and I actually like him as a villain, but Mapleshade's story is too unrealistic for me to take seriously.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Mar 28, 2018 16:45:10 GMT -5
Mapleshade was literally mentally unstable when she did those things, hence why people think she should be forgiven. Breezepelt is a different situation, in a way and I won't get into him because of conflicting feelings. However, I do think it's slightly inappropriate to invalidate her history because you don't like it. You can think it's a sob story, but it's probably not best to put it into a debate because you're playing with fire on that.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 28, 2018 23:36:28 GMT -5
Mapleshade was literally mentally unstable when she did those things, hence why people think she should be forgiven. Breezepelt is a different situation, in a way and I won't get into him because of conflicting feelings. However, I do think it's slightly inappropriate to invalidate her history because you don't like it. You can think it's a sob story, but it's probably not best to put it into a debate because you're playing with fire on that. What's stopping us from saying that Ashfur was mentally unstable when he comitted his actions? Does it make it something to sympathize or something that explains his actions and excuses them over the actions of another murderous cat?
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 29, 2018 0:29:53 GMT -5
Mapleshade was seeing hallucinations, her being mentally unstable is basically fact and that's all there is to it. With Ashfur, there's no proof whatsoever. Not even he says it. They aren't the same thing.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Mar 29, 2018 11:03:46 GMT -5
Mapleshade was literally mentally unstable when she did those things, hence why people think she should be forgiven. Breezepelt is a different situation, in a way and I won't get into him because of conflicting feelings. However, I do think it's slightly inappropriate to invalidate her history because you don't like it. You can think it's a sob story, but it's probably not best to put it into a debate because you're playing with fire on that. What's stopping us from saying that Ashfur was mentally unstable when he comitted his actions? Does it make it something to sympathize or something that explains his actions and excuses them over the actions of another murderous cat? As Vector said, there's proof that Mapleshade wasn't stable and no evidence for Ashfur. I also never excused her actions, but if someone is mentally unstable and commit horrid crimes, they will usually get a sentence that will help them. In Warriors, they handle this subject poorly, treating mental health as if it doesn't exist unless the authors mention something outside the books. Many use Palebird's depression to explain her actions and try to ease the hate on her. I can see why some would do it to Mapleshade. Same goes for Hollyleaf, Goosefeather, and Bluestar.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 29, 2018 11:11:26 GMT -5
What's stopping us from saying that Ashfur was mentally unstable when he comitted his actions? Does it make it something to sympathize or something that explains his actions and excuses them over the actions of another murderous cat? As Vector said, there's proof that Mapleshade wasn't stable and no evidence for Ashfur. I also never excused her actions, but if someone is mentally unstable and commit horrid crimes, they will usually get a sentence that will help them. In Warriors, they handle this subject poorly, treating mental health as if it doesn't exist unless the authors mention something outside the books. Many use Palebird's depression to explain her actions and try to ease the hate on her. I can see why some would do it to Mapleshade. Same goes for Hollyleaf, Goosefeather, and Bluestar. We know that because we got her POV. We never got Ashfur's, or Breezepelt's, or other cats that have done awful crimes. Even if Mapleshade had these mental illnesses, she was banished before she hallucinated her kits. She broke the code, she was punished, sadly some leaders do that. Because she brutally murdered cats, no matter her mental state, I feel nothing for her. The kits on the other hand, I do feel for them.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 29, 2018 11:12:30 GMT -5
Mapleshade was seeing hallucinations, her being mentally unstable is basically fact and that's all there is to it. With Ashfur, there's no proof whatsoever. Not even he says it. They aren't the same thing. Again, unfair in the case that we got her POV. Not Ashfur's. They are not the same thing only for this reason.
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