|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 11:12:50 GMT -5
The situations are nearly the same. The only difference is that Mapleshade didn't abandon her kits.
> Leafpool used Squirrelflight as a cover up so her kits would believe she's their parent and not Leafpool herself
> Mapleshade used Birchface as the father so her Clan wouldn't think she took a RiverClan mate
> Everyone reacted the same when the truth came out. Hollyleaf wanted to kill Leafpool. I also remember Stonefur and Mistyfoot reacting the same way when the truth about Bluestar's lie came out. They were furious, and Stonefur disowned her as a mother. Yet people are angry with ThunderClan for treating Mapleshade the same way, except they actually exiled her??
> They both lied to their clans. Leafpool and Squirrelflight let everyone believe in their lie. Mapleshade did the same thing, except hers was worse. She gave Frecklewish false hope while she was suicidal.
I'm not sure why Mapleshade gets a free pass from the fandom when I see a lot of anger towards Leafpool and Bluestar (mostly Leafpool). They've both done similar things. I never understood it. I know it's unfair to compare these two cats when they're not the same, but their situation was similar when they tried to cover up the lie. I see Leafpool treated more harshly with the fandom than Mapleshade. People actually support this monster for wanting to kill cats. But people are mad at Leafpool, some saying she deserves to die from Hollyleaf (maybe not on here, but definitely other places)
What's the difference? Why are these cats treated differently when they've both done the same thing?
|
|
|
Post by Kibui on Mar 26, 2018 11:34:02 GMT -5
Mapleshade went on a full-on murder spree which I found interesting to read about since you don't get the POV of a bad guy in warriors everyday. I kinda love how ruthless she became right down to uncovering Ravenwing's body again just so crows can get to it. That's pretty dark and I loved it.
Leafpool on the other hand moped and doped and acted like her degration to a warrior wasn't a self-inflicted punishment which I found extremely annoying.
I agree that there are similarities in terms of the way they thought having a mate from a different clans was going to be fine and that they were doing nothing wrong, but, at least for me, it's how they acted after the reveal that makes me like or dislike them (though honestly Leafpool during the second half of TNP was super annoying too and I've always disliked her since the LeafXCrow escapade)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 12:11:48 GMT -5
Mapleshade went on a full-on murder spree which I found interesting to read about since you don't get the POV of a bad guy in warriors everyday. I kinda love how ruthless she became right down to uncovering Ravenwing's body again just so crows can get to it. That's pretty dark and I loved it. Leafpool on the other hand moped and doped and acted like her degration to a warrior wasn't a self-inflicted punishment which I found extremely annoying. I agree that there are similarities in terms of the way they thought having a mate from a different clans was going to be fine and that they were doing nothing wrong, but, at least for me, it's how they acted after the reveal that makes me like or dislike them (though honestly Leafpool during the second half of TNP was super annoying too and I've always disliked her since the LeafXCrow escapade) See I find this unfair. I don't get why people don't like how she acted after the truth came out. Leafpool still remained loyal. And do people expect her to be happy after the truth came out? Her own daughter tried to kill her, and the Three disowned her as a mother. She felt so bad that she stepped down. Of course she'd "mope and dope" around. You can't expect her to be happy. She had it coming, but she still lost a lot. Ravenwing didn't deserve that though. Mapleshade thought cats "wronged" her when really I don't blame them for being angry at her. The only ones that truly wronged her were Oakstar and Appledusk. Mapleshade acts like a victim and blames everyone for her problems she has caused herself. Leafpool still loved her clan and stayed strong despite everything. I prefer Leaf over Maple because at least Leaf got over it. She accepted her kits' rejection, whereas Maple never did and went off at a killing spree. Her story was also really pathetic imo, it's unrealistic how no one supported her.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 26, 2018 12:49:37 GMT -5
Mapleshade might be evil, but she was badass and took action. Leafpool was a lot like her boytoy, just whining and moping and generally not doing anything about it. Another thing is that Mapleshade was punished and suffered a lot for what happened, most of it unjust, so it's good to see her bounce back. Leafpool, on the other hand, got yelled at a few times and that was about it. She didn't get exiled in the middle of a thunderstorm with little kits tagging along.
Dumping her kits off on Squirrelflight was also a jerk move, I have to say.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 12:58:22 GMT -5
Mapleshade might be evil, but she was badass and took action. Leafpool was a lot like her boytoy, just whining and moping and generally not doing anything about it. Another thing is that Mapleshade was punished and suffered a lot for what happened, most of it unjust, so it's good to see her bounce back. Leafpool, on the other hand, got yelled at a few times and that was about it. She didn't get exiled in the middle of a thunderstorm with little kits tagging along. Dumping her kits off on Squirrelflight was also a jerk move, I have to say. Yellowfang and Feathertail are just as guilty for it though. Leafpool wasn't just yelled at. She lost her kits, Hollyleaf wanted her to die, she went through mental abuse from Crowfeather, and her rank as a medicine cat. She was punished. I'm not sure why people judge her for being sad after losing a lot though. It seems unfair to me. If you're going to judge her, then judge her for abandoning the Three and betraying her clan, not for being sad and not "taking action" like Mapleshade did. My problem with Mapleshade is that she acted like a victim when she's not. She blamed everyone for her problems. Mapleshade was just as whiny as Leafpool, feeling sorry for herself and asking what she did to deserve this to StarClan. Leafpool on the other hand eventually got over it, accepted that her kits were angry with her and tried to help her clan with her tail held high. Mapleshade just kept her grudge and continued to hurt innocent cats like Crookedstar and Sandstorm, who had nothing to do with her past..
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Mar 26, 2018 13:17:46 GMT -5
Leafpool didn't just dump the Three on Squirrelflight like trash. First off, Squirrelflight had a choice. She had every right and chance to say no. But Squirrelflight chose to agree, she chose to raise them, and you can't tell me she didn't love every minute with them, raising them alongside her best friend and her mate.
Leafpool returned to Thunderclan when the clan needed her, choosing them over her loved mate, returning to a clan she had believed truly did not need her. As foolish as it sounds, at least she made a choice and stuck with it. Leafpool does this often, which I like about her. She chose to leave Crowfeather and never returned to him. She chose to let Squirrelflight raise her own kits and to watch them from afar and never hesitated. She chose to step down from her rank because by then the clans would have been enraged if she stayed.
Remember how everyone demanded Jayfeather to step down just because Dawnpelt cried out that she thought a blind cat tried to push her brother into the lake? Imagine the reaction if Leafpool, a medicine cat who broke the code, ran away, mated with another clan's warrior, gave her kits away and never told her own father and leader the truth. Would she even be able to stay without igniting rage in the other clans?
Hollyleaf tried to literally force feed her thr cat equivelant of Cyanide, before running away and "dying", Lionblaze and Jayfeather hated her guts, she caused the split between her sister and her mate, she more than likely lost her own father's trust, she broke the code taught to her by a medicine cat who died honoring their rank, Crowfeather feels nothing for her anymore, and all her training meant nothing when she stepped down.
Want to know the key difference between these two cats? Leafpool took responsability for her choices, she still cares for her clanmates and worked to regain the trust of her sons and daughter, she felt sad for a while but sucked it up and continued serving her clan as both a warrior and now a medicine cat again, she takes full responsability for her actions and blames no one else, and does not lash out at others. Mapleshade was a murderer who blamed everyone else but herself for her life and jeapordized and used her kits as an excuse to murder cats when she got punished.
Leafpool is, in my opinion, a cat who has matured and has been punished enough for her crimes and still serves her clan diligently.
|
|
|
Post by Kibui on Mar 26, 2018 13:22:54 GMT -5
Well, obviously I don't expect Leafpool to be happy after the truth came out but like I said I hated her moping, especially considering that she was not officially punished and was lucky enough to not be harassed by her clanmates for it. How else I were expecting her to act? With more dignity in the beginning and being less entitled when her kits started to forgive her that's how. But since she just isn't that kind of character and the way she handled it is just not my cup of tea and also the reason why I can't agree with your argument that she supposedly stayed strong. I'm sorry but I just don't see it that way.
(And just for the record: I'm not saying she should've been exiled either but there were no repercussions for her from Firestar's/the leader's side and that just annoys me to no end. Even the argument that her kits hating her is punishment enough doesn't really work because unlike with Graystripe whose mate actually died, her kin was never in a life threatening situation.)
It's funny with Mapleshade because had she not become a villainous murderer and/or had there been put even more emphasis on how she lied to her clan I think I would dislike her as well. I'm not gonna go into that who wronged Mapleshed and that whole scapegoating situation though since I'm indecisive on that matter anyway - on the one hand I really don't mind that she also went after cats who you claim didn't even wrong her because I don't really care in this case whether it's justified or not or whether she blames others for the problems she's caused. On the other hand I agree that it's unrealistic how no one from her clan supported her which just goes to show that her story would've better fit into a Super Edition which would have had more room for that.
Honestly in this case it just boils down to me to a) the fact that I like Mapleshade enough as a villain to not care as much about her faulty view of inter-clan-relationships and how she acted before her exile (which we got to the much less of than her time as a villain) and b ) the way Leafpool acted ever since she met Crowfeather and her not doing anything afterward that would make me like her, plus the fact that she got a free pass for her mistake
I'll try to put it this way: Mapleshade blaming others for the problems does not bother me as much compared to Leafpool getting an out-of-jail card for her mistakes whilst still acting like her stepping down wasn't self-induced
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 13:36:51 GMT -5
Well, obviously I don't expect Leafpool to be happy after the truth came out but like I said I hated her moping, especially considering that she was not officially punished and was lucky enough to not be harassed by her clanmates for it. How else I were expecting her to act? With more dignity in the beginning and being less entitled when her kits started to forgive her that's how. But since she just isn't that kind of character and the way she handled it is just not my cup of tea and also the reason why I can't agree with your argument that she supposedly stayed strong. I'm sorry but I just don't see it that way. (And just for the record: I'm not saying she should've been exiled either but there were no repercussions for her from Firestar's/the leader's side and that just annoys me to no end. Even the argument that her kits hating her is punishment enough doesn't really work because unlike with Graystripe whose mate actually died, her kin was never in a life threatening situation.) It's funny with Mapleshade because had she not become a villainous murderer and/or had there been put even more emphasis on how she lied to her clan I think I would dislike her as well. I'm not gonna go into that who wronged Mapleshed and that whole scapegoating situation though since I'm indecisive on that matter anyway - on the one hand I really don't mind that she also went after cats who you claim didn't even wrong her because I don't really care in this case whether it's justified or not or whether she blames others for the problems she's caused. On the other hand I agree that it's unrealistic how no one from her clan supported her which just goes to show that her story would've better fit into a Super Edition which would have had more room for that. Honestly in this case it just boils down to me to a) the fact that I like Mapleshade enough as a villain to not care as much about her faulty view of inter-clan-relationships and how she acted before her exile (which we got to the much less of than her time as a villain) and b ) the way Leafpool acted ever since she met Crowfeather and her not doing anything afterward that would make me like her, plus the fact that she got a free pass for her mistake I'll try to put it this way: Mapleshade blaming others for the problems does not bother me as much compared to Leafpool getting an out-of-jail card for her mistakes whilst still acting like her stepping down wasn't self-induced I see her as a strong character because she never stopped loving her clan. Instead of turning on the Clans, Leafpool still loved. She still loved her kits. She even said she'd forgive Hollyleaf, despite everything she's done. Later in OotS Leafpool started accepting her kits' rejection with her tail held high. She was even more confident in patrols. I can't remember exactly, but I think this was said in Night Whispers from Lionblaze's PoV? Leafpool also continued to help others. She helped advise Jayfeather about Briarlight. She helped save Foxleap and Cherrypaw (?) from the herb they ate in TFW. She supported Sorreltail during birth. Even fans are starting to respect Leafpool again after she's standing up to Rowanstar. Leafpool worked hard to earn the respect and trust back. She never stopped loving others. She never gave up. She still had faith in her clan and never rejected her kits like they did with her. She could have turned on them, but she didn't. She earned everything back after many years'of suffering. She accepted that she and Crow were never meant to be a thing, and was even sorry that things turned out the way they did.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 13:41:29 GMT -5
Leafpool didn't just dump the Three on Squirrelflight like trash. First off, Squirrelflight had a choice. She had every right and chance to say no. But Squirrelflight chose to agree, she chose to raise them, and you can't tell me she didn't love every minute with them, raising them alongside her best friend and her mate. Leafpool returned to Thunderclan when the clan needed her, choosing them over her loved mate, returning to a clan she had believed truly did not need her. As foolish as it sounds, at least she made a choice and stuck with it. Leafpool does this often, which I like about her. She chose to leave Crowfeather and never returned to him. She chose to let Squirrelflight raise her own kits and to watch them from afar and never hesitated. She chose to step down from her rank because by then the clans would have been enraged if she stayed. Remember how everyone demanded Jayfeather to step down just because Dawnpelt cried out that she thought a blind cat tried to push her brother into the lake? Imagine the reaction if Leafpool, a medicine cat who broke the code, ran away, mated with another clan's warrior, gave her kits away and never told her own father and leader the truth. Would she even be able to stay without igniting rage in the other clans? Hollyleaf tried to literally force feed her thr cat equivelant of Cyanide, before running away and "dying", Lionblaze and Jayfeather hated her guts, she caused the split between her sister and her mate, she more than likely lost her own father's trust, she broke the code taught to her by a medicine cat who died honoring their rank, Crowfeather feels nothing for her anymore, and all her training meant nothing when she stepped down. Want to know the key difference between these two cats? Leafpool took responsability for her choices, she still cares for her clanmates and worked to regain the trust of her sons and daughter, she felt sad for a while but sucked it up and continued serving her clan as both a warrior and now a medicine cat again, she takes full responsability for her actions and blames no one else, and does not lash out at others. Mapleshade was a murderer who blamed everyone else but herself for her life and jeapordized and used her kits as an excuse to murder cats when she got punished. Leafpool is, in my opinion, a cat who has matured and has been punished enough for her crimes and still serves her clan diligently. Pretty much this. It just baffles me why people don't like Leafpool just because she apparently "moped around" after the truth came out. She got over it, she helped on patrols and still carried out her duties. Mapleshade just turned on everyone and killed cats who didn't deserve death, even letting the crows feed off of one of them, which is sick, imo. Ravenwing made a mistake. He didn't deserve that from her. It's also dishonorable to kill a medicine cat, right in front of the Moonstone at that. Leafpool has dignity, whereas Mapleshade doesn't. If anything Mapleshade is just as whiny as her, if not more, screaming at StarClan what she did to deserve this multiple times, telling her 'enemies' how much she's suffered.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Mar 26, 2018 13:44:15 GMT -5
Leafpool didn't just dump the Three on Squirrelflight like trash. First off, Squirrelflight had a choice. She had every right and chance to say no. But Squirrelflight chose to agree, she chose to raise them, and you can't tell me she didn't love every minute with them, raising them alongside her best friend and her mate. Leafpool returned to Thunderclan when the clan needed her, choosing them over her loved mate, returning to a clan she had believed truly did not need her. As foolish as it sounds, at least she made a choice and stuck with it. Leafpool does this often, which I like about her. She chose to leave Crowfeather and never returned to him. She chose to let Squirrelflight raise her own kits and to watch them from afar and never hesitated. She chose to step down from her rank because by then the clans would have been enraged if she stayed. Remember how everyone demanded Jayfeather to step down just because Dawnpelt cried out that she thought a blind cat tried to push her brother into the lake? Imagine the reaction if Leafpool, a medicine cat who broke the code, ran away, mated with another clan's warrior, gave her kits away and never told her own father and leader the truth. Would she even be able to stay without igniting rage in the other clans? Hollyleaf tried to literally force feed her thr cat equivelant of Cyanide, before running away and "dying", Lionblaze and Jayfeather hated her guts, she caused the split between her sister and her mate, she more than likely lost her own father's trust, she broke the code taught to her by a medicine cat who died honoring their rank, Crowfeather feels nothing for her anymore, and all her training meant nothing when she stepped down. Want to know the key difference between these two cats? Leafpool took responsability for her choices, she still cares for her clanmates and worked to regain the trust of her sons and daughter, she felt sad for a while but sucked it up and continued serving her clan as both a warrior and now a medicine cat again, she takes full responsability for her actions and blames no one else, and does not lash out at others. Mapleshade was a murderer who blamed everyone else but herself for her life and jeapordized and used her kits as an excuse to murder cats when she got punished. Leafpool is, in my opinion, a cat who has matured and has been punished enough for her crimes and still serves her clan diligently. Pretty much this. It just baffles me why people don't like Leafpool just because she apparently "moped around" after the truth came out. She got over it, she helped on patrols and still carried out her duties. Mapleshade just turned on everyone and killed cats who didn't deserve death, even letting the crows feed off of one of them, which is sick, imo. Ravenwing made a mistake. He didn't deserve that from her. It's also dishonorable to kill a medicine cat, right in front of the Moonstone at that. Leafpool has dignity, whereas Mapleshade doesn't. If anything Mapleshade is just as whiny as her, if not more, screaming at StarClan what she did to deserve this multiple times, telling her 'enemies' how much she's suffered. To be honest I saw her story as literally her moping and blaming others from the start XD Mapleshade was far more whiney and selfish than Leafpool was.
|
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 26, 2018 14:46:18 GMT -5
Mapleshade might be evil, but she was badass and took action. Leafpool was a lot like her boytoy, just whining and moping and generally not doing anything about it. Another thing is that Mapleshade was punished and suffered a lot for what happened, most of it unjust, so it's good to see her bounce back. Leafpool, on the other hand, got yelled at a few times and that was about it. She didn't get exiled in the middle of a thunderstorm with little kits tagging along. Dumping her kits off on Squirrelflight was also a jerk move, I have to say. Yellowfang and Feathertail are just as guilty for it though. Leafpool wasn't just yelled at. She lost her kits, Hollyleaf wanted her to die, she went through mental abuse from Crowfeather, and her rank as a medicine cat. She was punished. I'm not sure why people judge her for being sad after losing a lot though. It seems unfair to me. If you're going to judge her, then judge her for abandoning the Three and betraying her clan, not for being sad and not "taking action" like Mapleshade did. My problem with Mapleshade is that she acted like a victim when she's not. She blamed everyone for her problems. Mapleshade was just as whiny as Leafpool, feeling sorry for herself and asking what she did to deserve this to StarClan. Leafpool on the other hand eventually got over it, accepted that her kits were angry with her and tried to help her clan with her tail held high. Mapleshade just kept her grudge and continued to hurt innocent cats like Crookedstar and Sandstorm, who had nothing to do with her past.. I couldn't care less about Yellowfang and Feathertail. I judge Leafpool not on her moral merits(where he's obviously better than Mapleshade) but in an out of universe sense. Yes, obviously Mapleshade is evil, but if nothing else it's less annoying than Leafpool just sitting around. Not to mention her yapping when Breezepelt and Lionblaze get into a brawl. That entire scene was a catastrophe because of Leafpool deciding to shove herself into the middle of a routine border dispute and start calling out family connections. Leafpool isn't as bad as Mapleshade, but she's far more irritating. In any case, are you seriously comparing Leafpool's suffering to Mapleshade's though? When did Leafpool get exiled? When did all her kits(who she actually raised as opposed to leaving them with someone else)die? When did she start seeing hallucinations of her dead kits? Leafpool had it easy by comparison. Also, I'm questioning, where did Mapleshade blame everyone for her problems? She only blamed Appledusk, Frecklewish, and Ravenwing. She left the cat who gave her the tip on Frecklewish alone and didn't go hunt down literally everyone. She had a very targeted revenge scheme.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 26, 2018 17:06:28 GMT -5
Leafpool went on patrols, but she was a crappy hunter, and not much of a fighter.
Honestly, her moping was utterly annoying, she stepped down from her position and punished herself, Firestar never punished her. And in the end, she got everything back, easier than Squirrelflight.
Everyone assumed Mapleshade was the mother of Birchface's kits, she never confirmed or deny it, they were using her just as much, because they wanted to believe that Birchface still lived on in something. On top of that Oakstar was planning to use the kits to get revenge on Appledusk.
Leafpool is a medicine cat, she shouldn't have been thinking about mates period, and Squirrelflight was lied to by StarClan, oh yeah they had StarClan on their side too, hmm. Anyways StarClan literally lies to Squirrelflight about being barren so she'd agree to help her rule-breaking sister, hiding the fact she had kits not only that but with a tom from another clan. So two major rules. She also never told the father the truth despite planning to before, and even having the opportunity.
Also when was it ever confirmed Frecklewish was suicidal???
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 17:09:18 GMT -5
Yellowfang and Feathertail are just as guilty for it though. Leafpool wasn't just yelled at. She lost her kits, Hollyleaf wanted her to die, she went through mental abuse from Crowfeather, and her rank as a medicine cat. She was punished. I'm not sure why people judge her for being sad after losing a lot though. It seems unfair to me. If you're going to judge her, then judge her for abandoning the Three and betraying her clan, not for being sad and not "taking action" like Mapleshade did. My problem with Mapleshade is that she acted like a victim when she's not. She blamed everyone for her problems. Mapleshade was just as whiny as Leafpool, feeling sorry for herself and asking what she did to deserve this to StarClan. Leafpool on the other hand eventually got over it, accepted that her kits were angry with her and tried to help her clan with her tail held high. Mapleshade just kept her grudge and continued to hurt innocent cats like Crookedstar and Sandstorm, who had nothing to do with her past.. I couldn't care less about Yellowfang and Feathertail. I judge Leafpool not on her moral merits(where he's obviously better than Mapleshade) but in an out of universe sense. Yes, obviously Mapleshade is evil, but if nothing else it's less annoying than Leafpool just sitting around. Not to mention her yapping when Breezepelt and Lionblaze get into a brawl. That entire scene was a catastrophe because of Leafpool deciding to shove herself into the middle of a routine border dispute and start calling out family connections. Leafpool isn't as bad as Mapleshade, but she's far more irritating. In any case, are you seriously comparing Leafpool's suffering to Mapleshade's though? When did Leafpool get exiled? When did all her kits(who she actually raised as opposed to leaving them with someone else)die? When did she start seeing hallucinations of her dead kits? Leafpool had it easy by comparison. Also, I'm questioning, where did Mapleshade blame everyone for her problems? She only blamed Appledusk, Frecklewish, and Ravenwing. She left the cat who gave her the tip on Frecklewish alone and didn't go hunt down literally everyone. She had a very targeted revenge scheme. Yes, I am actually seriously comparing them because they've both done the same thing. :/ Mapleshade blamed everyone multiple times for her problems. She said she's done nothing wrong, asking what she's done to deserve a punishment. She used a highly respected warrior and lied to her friend, who was already suicidal. I don't know how people missed the fact that she acted like the victim. When I get home from work I'll grab the quotes myself, I'm on my shift right now. But she did act like a victim, blaming everyone for her problems. She blamed Ravenwing for the kits' deaths. She blamed Frecklewish for their deaths. Whereas they can't predict what's going to happen. Frecklewish never wanted the kits to die. Mapleshade truly believed she's done nothing wrong when she in fact broke the code. The clan was still grieving after losing Birchface and Flowerpaw, so I don't know why Mapleshade truly believed they'd be okay with her lie. Mapleshade has been foolish. She takes out her anger on other cats just to "feel the same pain she went through". It is disgusting. She is selfish and whiny. No one deserves to suffer just because she had a bad past.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 17:11:24 GMT -5
Leafpool went on patrols, but she was a crappy hunter, and not much of a fighter. Honestly, her moping was utterly annoying, she stepped down from her position and punished herself, Firestar never punished her. And in the end, she got everything back, easier than Squirrelflight. Everyone assumed Mapleshade was the mother of Birchface's kits, she never confirmed or deny it, they were using her just as much, because they wanted to believe that Birchface still lived on in something. On top of that Oakstar was planning to use the kits to get revenge on Appledusk. Leafpool is a medicine cat, she shouldn't have been thinking about mates period, and Squirrelflight was lied to by StarClan, oh yeah they had StarClan on their side too, hmm. Anyways StarClan literally lies to Squirrelflight about being barren so she'd agree to help her rule-breaking sister, hiding the fact she had kits not only that but with a tom from another clan. So two major rules. She also never told the father the truth despite planning to before, and even having the opportunity. Also when was it ever confirmed Frecklewish was suicidal??? I don't have the quote right now but Ravenwing said that "you made her fdel like life worth living again. She took the loss of her brother hard,"which pretty much confirmed that she wanted to die after losing Birchface. It's why she acted so harshly the way she did. I'm not saying Frecklewish acted right but people need to understand her own situation. Mapleshade isn't the only victim here.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 26, 2018 17:23:13 GMT -5
Leafpool went on patrols, but she was a crappy hunter, and not much of a fighter. Honestly, her moping was utterly annoying, she stepped down from her position and punished herself, Firestar never punished her. And in the end, she got everything back, easier than Squirrelflight. Everyone assumed Mapleshade was the mother of Birchface's kits, she never confirmed or deny it, they were using her just as much, because they wanted to believe that Birchface still lived on in something. On top of that Oakstar was planning to use the kits to get revenge on Appledusk. Leafpool is a medicine cat, she shouldn't have been thinking about mates period, and Squirrelflight was lied to by StarClan, oh yeah they had StarClan on their side too, hmm. Anyways StarClan literally lies to Squirrelflight about being barren so she'd agree to help her rule-breaking sister, hiding the fact she had kits not only that but with a tom from another clan. So two major rules. She also never told the father the truth despite planning to before, and even having the opportunity. Also when was it ever confirmed Frecklewish was suicidal??? I don't have the quote right now but Ravenwing said that "you made her fdel like life worth living again. She took the loss of her brother hard,"which pretty much confirmed that she wanted to die after losing Birchface. It's why she acted so harshly the way she did. I'm not saying Frecklewish acted right but people need to understand her own situation. Mapleshade isn't the only victim here. No, it doesn't. Being depressed =/= suicidal. Please don't mix the two up. "What a lot of people don’t realize is though depression and suicidal intent are comorbid, you do not have to have one to have the other: just because you are depressed does not mean that you are suicidal, and you can be suicidal without being depressed." Source [ x] No offense, but please don't make claims on unconfirmed subjects as touchy as this before doing the research. Being suicidal can be a symptom of depression but we never got that type of conveyance from Frecklewish at all, and even by Ravenwing's words, it's not proof that she would kill herself, just that she was depressed.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 26, 2018 17:36:16 GMT -5
I couldn't care less about Yellowfang and Feathertail. I judge Leafpool not on her moral merits(where he's obviously better than Mapleshade) but in an out of universe sense. Yes, obviously Mapleshade is evil, but if nothing else it's less annoying than Leafpool just sitting around. Not to mention her yapping when Breezepelt and Lionblaze get into a brawl. That entire scene was a catastrophe because of Leafpool deciding to shove herself into the middle of a routine border dispute and start calling out family connections. Leafpool isn't as bad as Mapleshade, but she's far more irritating. In any case, are you seriously comparing Leafpool's suffering to Mapleshade's though? When did Leafpool get exiled? When did all her kits(who she actually raised as opposed to leaving them with someone else)die? When did she start seeing hallucinations of her dead kits? Leafpool had it easy by comparison. Also, I'm questioning, where did Mapleshade blame everyone for her problems? She only blamed Appledusk, Frecklewish, and Ravenwing. She left the cat who gave her the tip on Frecklewish alone and didn't go hunt down literally everyone. She had a very targeted revenge scheme. Yes, I am actually seriously comparing them because they've both done the same thing. :/ Mapleshade blamed everyone multiple times for her problems. She said she's done nothing wrong, asking what she's done to deserve a punishment. She used a highly respected warrior and lied to her friend, who was already suicidal. I don't know how people missed the fact that she acted like the victim. When I get home from work I'll grab the quotes myself, I'm on my shift right now. But she did act like a victim, blaming everyone for her problems. She blamed Ravenwing for the kits' deaths. She blamed Frecklewish for their deaths. Whereas they can't predict what's going to happen. Frecklewish never wanted the kits to die. Mapleshade truly believed she's done nothing wrong when she in fact broke the code. The clan was still grieving after losing Birchface and Flowerpaw, so I don't know why Mapleshade truly believed they'd be okay with her lie. Mapleshade has been foolish. She takes out her anger on other cats just to "feel the same pain she went through". It is disgusting. She is selfish and whiny. No one deserves to suffer just because she had a bad past. I'm not comparing what they did but the reactions to what they did. Leafpool got a slap on the wrist, Mapleshade was exiled from both Riverclan and Thunderclan, used up and spat out by Appledusk, and had her kits die. In what world are what happened to them comparable? If Firestar had kicked Leafpool out of Thunderclan, Crowfeather had hung her out to dry, and then had all of the three die, then you would have an argument, but as is their suffering was not equal. Ravenwing did have a part in the kit's deaths. Had he kept his mouth shut, nobody would have noticed a difference and she wouldn't have been exiled. With Frecklewish it's debatable, but on the other hand Frecklewish also attacked her and called them "half-clan creatures" so I can't blame her for having the impression Frecklewish hated them. Yeah, reread the part where they find out the truth, Frecklewish goes completely mental and starts scratching Mapleshade's eyes and has to be pulled off of her to be stopped from killing her. When you're screaming about someone's kits being half-clan creatures, suddenly you seem like a suspect. Oh, and then afterwards, Frecklewish wishes Mapleshade was dead and jumps at her. Frecklewish was the real tool here. Also, as far as Mapleshade thinking she didn't do anything wrong, well given that the nature of the crime as compared to the punishment it comes off like a figure of speech that for a victimless crime(and it is in fact entirely victimless until all of Thunderclan goes berserk) she is being treated like scum. Mapleshade also seemed to think that the kits could be some kind of a peace treaty between clans to avoid the meaningless battles over Sunningrocks, which helps with that impression. As for Frecklewish, you're drawing way too much meaning out of very few words. It could just as easily mean that Frecklewish was in a Thistleclaw-esque spiral of rage and she was focused on nothing more than revenge until she found out about the kits.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 17:55:51 GMT -5
I don't have the quote right now but Ravenwing said that "you made her fdel like life worth living again. She took the loss of her brother hard,"which pretty much confirmed that she wanted to die after losing Birchface. It's why she acted so harshly the way she did. I'm not saying Frecklewish acted right but people need to understand her own situation. Mapleshade isn't the only victim here. No, it doesn't. Being depressed =/= suicidal. Please don't mix the two up. "What a lot of people don’t realize is though depression and suicidal intent are comorbid, you do not have to have one to have the other: just because you are depressed does not mean that you are suicidal, and you can be suicidal without being depressed." Source [ x] No offense, but please don't make claims on unconfirmed subjects as touchy as this before doing the research. Being suicidal can be a symptom of depression but we never got that type of conveyance from Frecklewish at all, and even by Ravenwing's words, it's not proof that she would kill herself, just that she was depressed. My bad, it's fine. I just thought Frecklewish always had issues and that's why she acted the way she did. I never agreed with her though, and I do agree she was in the wrong. But she was dealing with something. Sorry if I've offended you though. Didn't mean it to be like that.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Mar 26, 2018 18:28:59 GMT -5
Okay. No.
Why is everyone ratting that Leafpool got off easy and blame her for that when Firestar was literally right there and could have punished her far more? You're blaming Leafpool for stepping down, but what else was she going to do? For all we know, Firestar could have done nothing at all and let her stay medicine cat and tell everyone to forgive her. She punished herself, and continued to do so.
She can mope, I mean, I'd be pretty mopey too if someone tried to force poison down my throat and then ran away and got themselves killed. It's called guilt, a natural emotion. The fact that it's only annoying when Leafpool greives and not when Mapleshade does is mind boggling.
Some leaders are more strict than others. That's not Leafpool or Mapleshade's fault at all. But sorry, nothing excuses the disgusting acts that Mapleshade comitted. Nothing.
Why is it okay for any other cat to be guilty and depressed and disgusted with themselves but suddenly it's annoying when Leafpool does it? She didn't mope forever, it's not like every waking moment with her was her sobbing and blaming other cats. Mapleshade WAS blaming other cats for her choices. She was banished, and that's the leader's choice, sorry.
Leafpool being bad at patrols? I wonder why, considering she trained as a medicine cat, but at least she was trying to make things up and trying to be a warrior, no matter how bad she was doing. And she's been amazingly dedicated and useful in AVOS.
|
|
|
Post by Chocolate-Fawn on Mar 26, 2018 18:52:07 GMT -5
I would be satisfied if Leafpool was punished. I think the reason why people care for Mapleshade is because Oakstar didn't just exile her, but three two moon old kits!! Leafpool also got a pass because she was Firestar's daughter and Mapleshade wasn't the daughter of anyone important. Also Leafpool pulled Squirrelflight into her mess and Squirrelflight suffered. She lost the trust of her mate and clan, also the trust of the kits she raised, not Leafpool.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 26, 2018 19:02:35 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is blaming Leafpool for moral failure, just pointing out that Leafpool suffered far less than Mapleshade. She's less sympathetic because of that. Now obviously Mapleshade going on a killing spree afterwards doesn't help make her sympathetic either, but then at that point there's a sensation of Schadenfreude because the other cats are scumbags in their own right(up until Reedshine, but that's exactly why you're happy that Mapleshade fails to kill her and instead gets Appledusk). I think there's some confusion here as to whether this is about the morals of the two or their character from an outside view. Leafpool has the better morals absolutely, but she rings far more hollowly and less painfully than Mapleshade to an outside perspective.
Also, Leafpool jumping into the border dispute and talking about family ties is a really bad look for her. Makes her come off as more deluded than Mapleshade.
|
|
|
Post by Maplestone360 on Mar 26, 2018 19:22:19 GMT -5
*raises hand* Um. I'm mad at her. >_>
|
|
Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
|
Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Mar 26, 2018 19:22:26 GMT -5
Leafpool got off easy pretty much. She lost claims to her kits a long time ago, so "losing them again" would be an invalid argument. She got everything back in some shape or form while her sister who helped her got the short end of the stick for longer and a lot more. I have no sympathy for Leafpool because she caused her own pain. No one had a paw in it. Mapleshade could have slid by, but there was interferences by others.
|
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 26, 2018 19:35:33 GMT -5
Allow me to rephrase. Mapleshade could retcon her own character into the easter bunny and she would still be a more interesting and compelling character than Leafpool could ever dream to be. Mapleshade's big conflict as that due to clan discrimination, she gets exiled for having a forbidden romance along with her kits, her kits drown due to incompetance, her mate blames her for their death, and riverclan doesn't care because sexism. Thus Mapleshade snaps and gets revenge. Leafpool's big conflict is whether she will pork and run away with he edgy foreign boyfriend and whether or not she thinks the tiger clones are evil. The former is just way more interesting and people will hate leafpool for being an utter bore for any reason they can think of. Mapleshade also believed that her kits could bring peace between River and Thunder and end the nonsensical fighting and bloodshed over Sunningrocks. She said that her kits would be a great value to ThunderClan, saying they'd be good warriors too. She was doing what she did with good intention, but it has a 360 later on because of how twisted she became. While Leafpool....I'm not exactly sure what she was going for?
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Mar 26, 2018 20:14:56 GMT -5
I'm just wondering how Firestar's choice to not punish Leafpool as severly as Mapleshade was punished is Leafpool's fault? The reason people don't let Leafpool off is for a reason she can't control? That's all I'm asking. Kind of makes it an unfair thing.
But, above all, at least in my opinion, Leafpool doesn't deserve the hate she gets. Just because she was punished less does not make her pain and emotions any less valid than Mapleshade's.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 20:24:44 GMT -5
I'm just wondering how Firestar's choice to not punish Leafpool as severly as Mapleshade was punished is Leafpool's fault? The reason people don't let Leafpool off is for a reason she can't control? That's all I'm asking. Kind of makes it an unfair thing. But, above all, at least in my opinion, Leafpool doesn't deserve the hate she gets. Just because she was punished less does not make her pain and emotions any less valid than Mapleshade's. Exactly, both cats were just as hurt. Both cats suffered,but at least Leafpool still stayed loyal and didn't turn on anyone and didn't go Cleavepool (anyone remember that fanfic?) But my problem with Mapleshade is that she took it to a whole new level.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 26, 2018 20:26:25 GMT -5
It's not Leafpool's fault but it makes her less interesting and thus we as the audience have less investment.
What is Leafpool's fault is even after the whole thing is revealed, she continues to pull stupid stunts like this
Even after Breezepelt slams her, she doesn't stop with this claptrap
Behaving like that doesn't help Leafpool's case.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Mar 26, 2018 20:39:16 GMT -5
It's not Leafpool's fault but it makes her less interesting and thus we as the audience have less investment. What is Leafpool's fault is even after the whole thing is revealed, she continues to pull stupid stunts like this Even after Breezepelt slams her, she doesn't stop with this claptrap Behaving like that doesn't help Leafpool's case. But, wait. Okay. She's perfectly justified doing this. Because she is 100 percent right. Crowfeather was just watching these warriors fight and not doing a single thing. Family or not, she's trying to break up her clanmate from fighting in a border skirmish like an immature idiot. Crowfeather is worse here. Leafpool being honest makes it a "claptrap?" She did love him. That happened. She chose her clan, but that does not mean she never loved him. The last thing she wants to see is Lionblaze torn apart, and she's assuming Crowfeather does not want to see Breezepelt torn apart, like a father kind of should. That scene made me like her more, actually.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Mar 26, 2018 20:56:00 GMT -5
It's not Leafpool's fault but it makes her less interesting and thus we as the audience have less investment. What is Leafpool's fault is even after the whole thing is revealed, she continues to pull stupid stunts like this Even after Breezepelt slams her, she doesn't stop with this claptrap Behaving like that doesn't help Leafpool's case. But, wait. Okay. She's perfectly justified doing this. Because she is 100 percent right. Crowfeather was just watching these warriors fight and not doing a single thing. Family or not, she's trying to break up her clanmate from fighting in a border skirmish like an immature idiot. Crowfeather is worse here. Leafpool being honest makes it a "claptrap?" She did love him. That happened. She chose her clan, but that does not mean she never loved him. The last thing she wants to see is Lionblaze torn apart, and she's assuming Crowfeather does not want to see Breezepelt torn apart, like a father kind of should. That scene made me like her more, actually. Trying to break it up wasn't a problem. Going in there and pulling the "they're your kids!" card however was awful. Crowfeather doesn't even know them, why the sudden shunting of that on him? Seems a bit late to suddenly start wanting his support when it was clear that it wasn't important for the last few years. I have no idea why she's trying to bring it up when by all rights, they're not Crowfeather's kids in any way save blood. There's a time and place to talk about that. Talking about it right after she's just pulled the "they're your kids!" card and Crowfeather trying to end the conversation doesn't help though. The fact that Crowfeather is an immature brat doesn't excuse Leafpool from acting the same way during that scene.
|
|