|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Feb 20, 2018 17:47:52 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, why do you think Mudclaw should have been leader? I've never seen that argument before. I think most fans forget how terrible mudclaw was in light of how terrible Onestar is I disagree. >> Mudclaw was a well respected senior warrior in his clan and popular among the others. >> No he's not perfect, he's made dumb mistakes, but that was under certain circumstances: -When he turned away Bluestar at highstones, this is because they were sheltering the very same cat that killed many of their kin and drove them out of their own territory. -When he though staying in the barn was a good idea, considering they all just lost their home and they found a place that was dry, warm and full of food, it's normal to think that, some cats didn't even want to leave. -When he sided with Hawkfrost during the rebellion, it's more like the other way around, Hawkfrost sided with him. No one knows he's evil at this point, not even Brambleclaw, and he was supporting Mudclaw in hopes of being his deputy. >> He has the experience to be leader, this is what deputies are trained to do in the first place. Mudclaw has been deputy for a while in the series, and during the journey the one leading the cats was him because Tallstar was too sick. He was doing his job as a deputy should, looking out for his clan. >> He had no reason to believe a single thing Firestar said after Tallstar's death. -Only Firestar, Brambleclaw and Onewhisker were witnesses to the change, no other WindClan cats. Just a former kittypet and the son of the notorious Tigerstar (whom keep in mind Mudclaw hates) -Tallstar didn't even use the right ceremonial words to change the deputy -No medicine cat was present during the change -Brambleclaw literally felt guilty about not telling certain information to the other cats (like the incorrect ceremonial words) and knew they were lying to them because of it. >> It was other cats in the clan that encouraged Mudclaw to lead the rebellion in the first place, because most of them sided with Mudclaw over Onewhisker. >> Even RiverClan cats were siding with Mudclaw, including Hawkfrost, in their support for him becoming leader, which is when ThunderClan stepped in to even the odds. >> Firestar had no right being in WindClan business anyways. This was a civil war dispute, not an international one. >> The dream Tallstar had about a cat ruining the clans? Was just a dream, and nothing else. Even if you read the short story there's no clear identification of who that cat is even. And ironically the one that ended up fitting it more was Onestar. >> Mudclaw wouldn't have a problem gaining respect of his clan, he already had it, he wouldn't have to go out of his way attack another clan in the middle of the night. >> Mudclaw strived to NOT be like Tigerstar and Brokenstar, he hated both of those cats and wanted to be a strong leader for his clan one day, a cat they could rely on. >> The tree that fell on Mudclaw was not sent by StarClan, it just happened to happen. >> WindClan got Onestar as a leader by default at that point. >> Even in StarClan Mudclaw was still shown to be a loyal cat, he was gathering information and helping other cats prepare for the upcoming war against the Dark Forest, confirming that even in death he still wanted to protect and defend his clan. >> Even when he was alive Mudclaw was still shown to be willing to work with other clans and ask them for help if it meant that his clan was in a dire situation. >> Being ambitious does not mean you're evil or horrible, it just means you strive for higher and better. >> And just because we're seeing Mudclaw through Main Character bias, doesn't change the fact that he was justified in how he felt and his actions against the treatment of his position. Tl;dr Mudclaw was NOT a bad cat and deserved to be leader. He had the credentials, he had to experience, and he was unjustly done dirty by the writers who ironically made an inexperienced horrible cat leader instead. If anything Mudclaw would have just been a better version of Blackstar.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2018 17:50:29 GMT -5
no mudlclaw is BA D kitty and thistleclaw bae :wub:
|
|
|
Post by Basement Cat on Feb 20, 2018 17:59:00 GMT -5
I actually really dislike when fans try to make Hollyleaf gay. She's asexual.
I don't understand HollyXWillow either.
Also, FernXIvy is trite garbage.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Feb 20, 2018 18:02:18 GMT -5
no mudlclaw is BA D kitty and thistleclaw bae Jokes on you, I like both of them. <:3c
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Feb 20, 2018 18:12:48 GMT -5
Here are some of mine.
I love Skystar, Needletail, and Violetshine. In contrast, I found Gray Wing, Alderheart, and Twigpaw to be pretty boring. I also find Twigpaw to be annoying.
I like Dovewing, and I'm glad she left ThunderClan so long as she's happy.
I'm not a fan of FernxIvy (or any Ivypool pairing, really).
The only forbidden relationships I liked were OakxBlue and CrowxLeaf, although TigerxDove is actually starting to grow on me a little bit.
I'm not a fan of Breezepelt and Blossomfall, at least as cats anyway. I just can't sympathize with anyone who thinks knowingly joining a cult is a good idea, abused or not.
Mapleshade's backstory was horrible, and only made me dislike said cat.
I actually liked SH (or at least more than I did PC and TE).
I understood why Molewhisker, Cherryfall, and Sparkpelt didn't want SkyClan around.
|
|
|
Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
|
Post by Holly Snow on Feb 20, 2018 19:58:07 GMT -5
I think most fans forget how terrible mudclaw was in light of how terrible Onestar is I disagree. >> Mudclaw was a well respected senior warrior in his clan and popular among the others. >> No he's not perfect, he's made dumb mistakes, but that was under certain circumstances: -When he turned away Bluestar at highstones, this is because they were sheltering the very same cat that killed many of their kin and drove them out of their own territory. -When he though staying in the barn was a good idea, considering they all just lost their home and they found a place that was dry, warm and full of food, it's normal to think that, some cats didn't even want to leave. -When he sided with Hawkfrost during the rebellion, it's more like the other way around, Hawkfrost sided with him. No one knows he's evil at this point, not even Brambleclaw, and he was supporting Mudclaw in hopes of being his deputy. >> He has the experience to be leader, this is what deputies are trained to do in the first place. Mudclaw has been deputy for a while in the series, and during the journey the one leading the cats was him because Tallstar was too sick. He was doing his job as a deputy should, looking out for his clan. >> He had no reason to believe a single thing Firestar said after Tallstar's death. -Only Firestar, Brambleclaw and Onewhisker were witnesses to the change, no other WindClan cats. Just a former kittypet and the son of the notorious Tigerstar (whom keep in mind Mudclaw hates) -Tallstar didn't even use the right ceremonial words to change the deputy -No medicine cat was present during the change -Brambleclaw literally felt guilty about not telling certain information to the other cats (like the incorrect ceremonial words) and knew they were lying to them because of it. >> It was other cats in the clan that encouraged Mudclaw to lead the rebellion in the first place, because most of them sided with Mudclaw over Onewhisker. >> Even RiverClan cats were siding with Mudclaw, including Hawkfrost, in their support for him becoming leader, which is when ThunderClan stepped in to even the odds. >> Firestar had no right being in WindClan business anyways. This was a civil war dispute, not an international one. >> The dream Tallstar had about a cat ruining the clans? Was just a dream, and nothing else. Even if you read the short story there's no clear identification of who that cat is even. And ironically the one that ended up fitting it more was Onestar. >> Mudclaw wouldn't have a problem gaining respect of his clan, he already had it, he wouldn't have to go out of his way attack another clan in the middle of the night. >> Mudclaw strived to NOT be like Tigerstar and Brokenstar, he hated both of those cats and wanted to be a strong leader for his clan one day, a cat they could rely on. >> The tree that fell on Mudclaw was not sent by StarClan, it just happened to happen. >> WindClan got Onestar as a leader by default at that point. >> Even in StarClan Mudclaw was still shown to be a loyal cat, he was gathering information and helping other cats prepare for the upcoming war against the Dark Forest, confirming that even in death he still wanted to protect and defend his clan. >> Even when he was alive Mudclaw was still shown to be willing to work with other clans and ask them for help if it meant that his clan was in a dire situation. >> Being ambitious does not mean you're evil or horrible, it just means you strive for higher and better. >> And just because we're seeing Mudclaw through Main Character bias, doesn't change the fact that he was justified in how he felt and his actions against the treatment of his position. Tl;dr Mudclaw was NOT a bad cat and deserved to be leader. He had the credentials, he had to experience, and he was unjustly done dirty by the writers who ironically made an inexperienced horrible cat leader instead. If anything Mudclaw would have just been a better version of Blackstar. Ok this is mostly about Mudclaw's legitimacy, which is not the problem. The problem with him is that he is like Thistleclaw in that he is to the right of the clan's political center. Whenever he was on patrol and Firestar encountered him while trying to go to moonstone or do interclan buisness Mudclaw actively would harass him and if he was in charge of a patrol would kick Firestar out. He prevented Bluestar, a clan leader who out ranked him, from visiting the moonstone on the basis of.....I have no idea, nationalism? This is not someone who is suited for diplomacy and in politics one of the most important things a leader must do is diplomacy. The security of the nation depends upon on it. Shadowclan got taken over by Tigerstar and Thunderclan and Windclan were almost wiped out because of it. Yes Mudclaw was loyal to Windclan. But that doesn't really matter. A nationalist is loyal to their nation by rule. That doesn't make their political ideologies good. Am I saying Mudclaw would have destroyed Windclan? No. He probably would have been like Leopardstar or Blackstar. Two rather conservative leaders. However these two are at best, ok. You could even argue they are mediocre. Blackstar needlessly started a geopolitical game with Thunderclan to make Shadowclan look good over a strip of land neither clan wanted. He let Sol over run his clan. Leopardstar let her clan get taken over by Tigerstar and almost let riverclan starve to death in dawn. She almost started a war in Dark River and in her dementia tried to start a war over the lake. It didnt happen because the other clans were rolling their eyes at her nonsense. Compared to Onestar they still look pretty good though. Which speaks volumes about how poor of a leader Onestar really was. Mudclaw wasn't a great choice but he was still better candidate than Onestar.
|
|
|
Post by Pyropelt on Feb 20, 2018 22:07:02 GMT -5
-I like Bramblestar as a leader. Sure I don't like all of his decisions, but in general think he's doing ok. -I think medicine cats should be allowed to have a family and kits if they want. So I would like if that code was gotten rid of. -I found no problem in Jayfeather, Hollyleaf, Lionblaze, and Brambleclaw not forgiving Leafpool and Squirrelflight. Though I am glad that Hollyleaf found some peace inside herself from being able to forgive, I guess. -I like Alder x Twig -Firestar is a great cat. -I like Bumblestripe. I just wish he had been written better and not guilt tripping Dovewing, but being supportive of her more. I feel like he had been, but the it was messed up and came off as creepy to the audience by having him bring up kits after Purdy died. But when they were together, I didn't feel it was wrong of Bumblestripe to say Dovewing would be a good mother. -I don't like Leopardstar. I like Jessy and don't think she was a copy of Squirrelflight. Honestly I don't really think any cat is like a copy of another or 2.0 or something. I love Jayfeather, even still in A Vision of Shadows.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Feb 21, 2018 3:09:45 GMT -5
I disagree. >> Mudclaw was a well respected senior warrior in his clan and popular among the others. >> No he's not perfect, he's made dumb mistakes, but that was under certain circumstances: -When he turned away Bluestar at highstones, this is because they were sheltering the very same cat that killed many of their kin and drove them out of their own territory. -When he though staying in the barn was a good idea, considering they all just lost their home and they found a place that was dry, warm and full of food, it's normal to think that, some cats didn't even want to leave. -When he sided with Hawkfrost during the rebellion, it's more like the other way around, Hawkfrost sided with him. No one knows he's evil at this point, not even Brambleclaw, and he was supporting Mudclaw in hopes of being his deputy. >> He has the experience to be leader, this is what deputies are trained to do in the first place. Mudclaw has been deputy for a while in the series, and during the journey the one leading the cats was him because Tallstar was too sick. He was doing his job as a deputy should, looking out for his clan. >> He had no reason to believe a single thing Firestar said after Tallstar's death. -Only Firestar, Brambleclaw and Onewhisker were witnesses to the change, no other WindClan cats. Just a former kittypet and the son of the notorious Tigerstar (whom keep in mind Mudclaw hates) -Tallstar didn't even use the right ceremonial words to change the deputy -No medicine cat was present during the change -Brambleclaw literally felt guilty about not telling certain information to the other cats (like the incorrect ceremonial words) and knew they were lying to them because of it. >> It was other cats in the clan that encouraged Mudclaw to lead the rebellion in the first place, because most of them sided with Mudclaw over Onewhisker. >> Even RiverClan cats were siding with Mudclaw, including Hawkfrost, in their support for him becoming leader, which is when ThunderClan stepped in to even the odds. >> Firestar had no right being in WindClan business anyways. This was a civil war dispute, not an international one. >> The dream Tallstar had about a cat ruining the clans? Was just a dream, and nothing else. Even if you read the short story there's no clear identification of who that cat is even. And ironically the one that ended up fitting it more was Onestar. >> Mudclaw wouldn't have a problem gaining respect of his clan, he already had it, he wouldn't have to go out of his way attack another clan in the middle of the night. >> Mudclaw strived to NOT be like Tigerstar and Brokenstar, he hated both of those cats and wanted to be a strong leader for his clan one day, a cat they could rely on. >> The tree that fell on Mudclaw was not sent by StarClan, it just happened to happen. >> WindClan got Onestar as a leader by default at that point. >> Even in StarClan Mudclaw was still shown to be a loyal cat, he was gathering information and helping other cats prepare for the upcoming war against the Dark Forest, confirming that even in death he still wanted to protect and defend his clan. >> Even when he was alive Mudclaw was still shown to be willing to work with other clans and ask them for help if it meant that his clan was in a dire situation. >> Being ambitious does not mean you're evil or horrible, it just means you strive for higher and better. >> And just because we're seeing Mudclaw through Main Character bias, doesn't change the fact that he was justified in how he felt and his actions against the treatment of his position. Tl;dr Mudclaw was NOT a bad cat and deserved to be leader. He had the credentials, he had to experience, and he was unjustly done dirty by the writers who ironically made an inexperienced horrible cat leader instead. If anything Mudclaw would have just been a better version of Blackstar. Ok this is mostly about Mudclaw's legitimacy, which is not the problem. The problem with him is that he is like Thistleclaw in that he is to the right of the clan's political center. Whenever he was on patrol and Firestar encountered him while trying to go to moonstone or do interclan buisness Mudclaw actively would harass him and if he was in charge of a patrol would kick Firestar out. He prevented Bluestar, a clan leader who out ranked him, from visiting the moonstone on the basis of.....I have no idea, nationalism? This is not someone who is suited for diplomacy and in politics one of the most important things a leader must do is diplomacy. The security of the nation depends upon on it. Shadowclan got taken over by Tigerstar and Thunderclan and Windclan were almost wiped out because of it. Yes Mudclaw was loyal to Windclan. But that doesn't really matter. A nationalist is loyal to their nation by rule. That doesn't make their political ideologies good. Am I saying Mudclaw would have destroyed Windclan? No. He probably would have been like Leopardstar or Blackstar. Two rather conservative leaders. However these two are at best, ok. You could even argue they are mediocre. Blackstar needlessly started a geopolitical game with Thunderclan to make Shadowclan look good over a strip of land neither clan wanted. He let Sol over run his clan. Leopardstar let her clan get taken over by Tigerstar and almost let riverclan starve to death in dawn. She almost started a war in Dark River and in her dementia tried to start a war over the lake. It didnt happen because the other clans were rolling their eyes at her nonsense. Compared to Onestar they still look pretty good though. Which speaks volumes about how poor of a leader Onestar really was. Mudclaw wasn't a great choice but he was still better candidate than Onestar. Bluestar was harboring a criminal, even Nightstar was furious about that to the point that he and ShadowClan worked together to attack ThunderClan in an attempt to kill him. WindClan cats have a right to be angry about her actions and how she thought it was in the right to harbor such a horrible cat that caused them several deaths and losing their home. That's like wanting to keep Darktail alive despite his crime, and keeping him under protection, I'm sure ShadowClan wouldn't stand for that let alone RiverClan after what they did to them too. Mudclaw harassing Firestar? Wow nothing new, Blackstar literally does this ALL the time, and I see no one giving him salt over it. Firestar, at the time, was still a fresh on the market kittypet, and no one ever let him forget that. Even after his death books later, they still say his name with disgust over his bloodline. Mudclaw is not the only one that hated kittypets but he didn't go out of his way to kill them like Thistleclaw tried to do with a bloody kit through his own apprentice. If a warrior has no loyalties than what are they? They're nothing imo. Loyalty to one's clan is one of the most biggest rules that's pounded into these characters that literally live by a code given from their dead ancestors and so forth. Mudclaw is loyal to his clan, the same can't be said for a cat like Onestar, let alone Crowfeather, the current deputy. I did say that Mudclaw wasn't perfect, and at best he'd just be a better version of Blackstar, remember? Ironically enough I wouldn't have minded Deadfoot becoming leader, in fact I wanted him to succeed Tallstar, he was a great cat. But the Erins put him on the chopping block. Mudclaw, imo, was a good candidate too, and my mind won't change about that. Not as good as Deafoot, sure. But still a good choice because he actually cared about his clan and was loyal to them, and had a spine unlike other cats. He showed leadership qualities, he had the experience, I really see no reason for him not to be leader except for the Erins dumb writing. I think it's best to agree to disagree on this.
|
|
Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
|
Post by Holly Snow on Feb 21, 2018 7:47:07 GMT -5
Ok this is mostly about Mudclaw's legitimacy, which is not the problem. The problem with him is that he is like Thistleclaw in that he is to the right of the clan's political center. Whenever he was on patrol and Firestar encountered him while trying to go to moonstone or do interclan buisness Mudclaw actively would harass him and if he was in charge of a patrol would kick Firestar out. He prevented Bluestar, a clan leader who out ranked him, from visiting the moonstone on the basis of.....I have no idea, nationalism? This is not someone who is suited for diplomacy and in politics one of the most important things a leader must do is diplomacy. The security of the nation depends upon on it. Shadowclan got taken over by Tigerstar and Thunderclan and Windclan were almost wiped out because of it. Yes Mudclaw was loyal to Windclan. But that doesn't really matter. A nationalist is loyal to their nation by rule. That doesn't make their political ideologies good. Am I saying Mudclaw would have destroyed Windclan? No. He probably would have been like Leopardstar or Blackstar. Two rather conservative leaders. However these two are at best, ok. You could even argue they are mediocre. Blackstar needlessly started a geopolitical game with Thunderclan to make Shadowclan look good over a strip of land neither clan wanted. He let Sol over run his clan. Leopardstar let her clan get taken over by Tigerstar and almost let riverclan starve to death in dawn. She almost started a war in Dark River and in her dementia tried to start a war over the lake. It didnt happen because the other clans were rolling their eyes at her nonsense. Compared to Onestar they still look pretty good though. Which speaks volumes about how poor of a leader Onestar really was. Mudclaw wasn't a great choice but he was still better candidate than Onestar. Bluestar was harboring a criminal, even Nightstar was furious about that to the point that he and ShadowClan worked together to attack ThunderClan in an attempt to kill him. WindClan cats have a right to be angry about her actions and how she thought it was in the right to harbor such a horrible cat that caused them several deaths and losing their home. That's like wanting to keep Darktail alive despite his crime, and keeping him under protection, I'm sure ShadowClan wouldn't stand for that let alone RiverClan after what they did to them too. Mudclaw harassing Firestar? Wow nothing new, Blackstar literally does this ALL the time, and I see no one giving him salt over it. Firestar, at the time, was still a fresh on the market kittypet, and no one ever let him forget that. Even after his death books later, they still say his name with disgust over his bloodline. Mudclaw is not the only one that hated kittypets but he didn't go out of his way to kill them like Thistleclaw tried to do with a bloody kit through his own apprentice. If a warrior has no loyalties than what are they? They're nothing imo. Loyalty to one's clan is one of the most biggest rules that's pounded into these characters that literally live by a code given from their dead ancestors and so forth. Mudclaw is loyal to his clan, the same can't be said for a cat like Onestar, let alone Crowfeather, the current deputy. I did say that Mudclaw wasn't perfect, and at best he'd just be a better version of Blackstar, remember? Ironically enough I wouldn't have minded Deadfoot becoming leader, in fact I wanted him to succeed Tallstar, he was a great cat. But the Erins put him on the chopping block. Mudclaw, imo, was a good candidate too, and my mind won't change about that. Not as good as Deafoot, sure. But still a good choice because he actually cared about his clan and was loyal to them, and had a spine unlike other cats. He showed leadership qualities, he had the experience, I really see no reason for him not to be leader except for the Erins dumb writing. I think it's best to agree to disagree on this. Brokenstar was dead by the time Bluestar wanted to visit Moonstone. He'd been dead. Dead because Yellowfang poisoned him and Thunderclan didn't care. There was no excuse to be such a prat. Firestar had been in the clans for 2 years and had saved the entirety of Windclan. Communing with Starclan is also important to the clans and if Tallstar was present he would have let them pass. Racism doesn't justify being a jerk. And as established, Blackstar wasn't that good of a leader. He's just the best Shadowclan has had in generations. Comparing Mudclaw to him doesn't make Mudclaw better. And nationalism isn't an excuse either. Thats something that is bad in excess.
|
|
|
Post by whiteflight on Feb 21, 2018 9:35:24 GMT -5
Bluestar was harboring a criminal, even Nightstar was furious about that to the point that he and ShadowClan worked together to attack ThunderClan in an attempt to kill him. WindClan cats have a right to be angry about her actions and how she thought it was in the right to harbor such a horrible cat that caused them several deaths and losing their home. That's like wanting to keep Darktail alive despite his crime, and keeping him under protection, I'm sure ShadowClan wouldn't stand for that let alone RiverClan after what they did to them too. Mudclaw harassing Firestar? Wow nothing new, Blackstar literally does this ALL the time, and I see no one giving him salt over it. Firestar, at the time, was still a fresh on the market kittypet, and no one ever let him forget that. Even after his death books later, they still say his name with disgust over his bloodline. Mudclaw is not the only one that hated kittypets but he didn't go out of his way to kill them like Thistleclaw tried to do with a bloody kit through his own apprentice. If a warrior has no loyalties than what are they? They're nothing imo. Loyalty to one's clan is one of the most biggest rules that's pounded into these characters that literally live by a code given from their dead ancestors and so forth. Mudclaw is loyal to his clan, the same can't be said for a cat like Onestar, let alone Crowfeather, the current deputy. I did say that Mudclaw wasn't perfect, and at best he'd just be a better version of Blackstar, remember? Ironically enough I wouldn't have minded Deadfoot becoming leader, in fact I wanted him to succeed Tallstar, he was a great cat. But the Erins put him on the chopping block. Mudclaw, imo, was a good candidate too, and my mind won't change about that. Not as good as Deafoot, sure. But still a good choice because he actually cared about his clan and was loyal to them, and had a spine unlike other cats. He showed leadership qualities, he had the experience, I really see no reason for him not to be leader except for the Erins dumb writing. I think it's best to agree to disagree on this. Brokenstar was dead by the time Bluestar wanted to visit Moonstone. He'd been dead. Dead because Yellowfang poisoned him and Thunderclan didn't care. There was no excuse to be such a prat. Firestar had been in the clans for 2 years and had saved the entirety of Windclan. Communing with Starclan is also important to the clans and if Tallstar was present he would have let them pass. Racism doesn't justify being a jerk. And as established, Blackstar wasn't that good of a leader. He's just the best Shadowclan has had in generations. Comparing Mudclaw to him doesn't make Mudclaw better. And nationalism isn't an excuse either. Thats something that is bad in excess. The thing that you forgot was that Windclan didn’t know that he was dead during that time they were going to the highstone. Cats will still making fun of Firestar even if he’s leader or has been around for 2 years, yes he’s respected but others will still make fun of him. I don’t agree with what Mudclaw did with Bluestar but I would rather still have him leader over Onestar.
|
|
|
Post by streamflower on Feb 21, 2018 10:53:57 GMT -5
Unpopular opinions:
-I really dislike Hollyleaf; she's super annoying. -I really dislike Jayfeather; he's abusive -Lionblaze is the only one of the three I like, with Dovewing just being "meh" for me -I like Bumblestripe and feel like he got the unfair treatment that so many cats get when the writers want to create conflict -I don't think this is unpopular necessarily, but half of Thunderclan needs to be wiped out because at this point I'm getting confused as to which cat is which, who's alive, who's dead, etc -Mudclaw should have been leader (Not sure how unpopular this is either) -I feel bad for Mapleshade; she's literally a cat who went through the worst trauma one could go through and she mentally snapped. Hell, I don't blame her for going after Ravenwing or Frecklewhisker; Thunderclan themselves broke the warrior code upon casting her and her kits out (Protect/save all kits even if they are of another clan), so no, I don't blame her and I actually feel bad for her. Do I think she should have gone after Crookedstar and his kin? No, I don't--but I don't blame her for having a mental break, especially for having something so unbelievably terrible happen to her
|
|
|
Post by Leonard on Feb 21, 2018 11:05:20 GMT -5
>> It was other cats in the clan that encouraged Mudclaw to lead the rebellion in the first place, because most of them sided with Mudclaw over Onewhisker. That's pretty much the opposite of what happened. >> Even RiverClan cats were siding with Mudclaw, including Hawkfrost, in their support for him becoming leader, which is when ThunderClan stepped in to even the odds. Hawkfrost helped Mudclaw because he was promised the deputy position. This shows how desperate Mudclaw was that he was willing to sell out to RiverClan cats. And how loyal he was. >> Firestar had no right being in WindClan business anyways. This was a civil war dispute, not an international one. But Hawkfrost had the right, yes?
|
|
|
Post by streamflower on Feb 21, 2018 11:26:45 GMT -5
>> It was other cats in the clan that encouraged Mudclaw to lead the rebellion in the first place, because most of them sided with Mudclaw over Onewhisker. That's pretty much the opposite of what happened. >> Even RiverClan cats were siding with Mudclaw, including Hawkfrost, in their support for him becoming leader, which is when ThunderClan stepped in to even the odds. Hawkfrost helped Mudclaw because he was promised the deputy position. This shows how desperate Mudclaw was that he was willing to sell out to RiverClan cats. And how loyal he was. >> Firestar had no right being in WindClan business anyways. This was a civil war dispute, not an international one. But Hawkfrost had the right, yes? I can't remember enough from your first point, so I won't comment on it. But in terms of the second point--he may have been desperate because he didn't believe that Onewhisker shouldn't have been leader. Yes, he was willing to get help from Riverclan, but Onewhisker was willing to take Firestar's support as well. I also think that neither Hawkfrost nor Firestar had any right to be involved in Windclan's business, however I think Firestar had less of a right than Hawkfrost. Let me explain: There is an election coming up with two citizens vying for power. The leader of a different country tries to convince your country to choose the leader they want based on something they can't prove. The other person is just being pushed by a private citizen from another country. Who is going to gain more support in the end? By Thunderclan getting involved they kind of screwed up; both sides should have stayed out of it. I still think Mudclaw should have been leader but oh well.
|
|
|
Post by walnutkitto on Feb 21, 2018 12:40:23 GMT -5
- I don't actually hate Millie. I'm only reading power of three currently so I may be wrong on my opinions about her. - I don't think Brackenfur is underrated anymore (even if he's my favorite.) - CrowXFeather is underdeveloped and I don't get it (StormXSquirrel also came out of no where.)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 13:57:42 GMT -5
I'd reframe from using words like: Racism, Nationism, Nations, Democracy etc. in a debate about Warrior Cats. Those are feral cats, they won't understand, let practice those complex ideologies. Those are solely human concepts. As I'd argue the Clans are far too small to function like a country with only about 15-40 members, who are all related. They're much more akin to larger families if anything, which is basically what they are.
And if we're really going to put a label on their political system, I would say it's more similar to a dictatorship, with one of person holding ultimate power, the leader. Yes, there are others high ranking members like the deputy and Medicine cat who can question them, but at the end of the day, all the final decisions are made by the leader, it's only optional if they seek the advice of others. Even in the Warrior Code, it says, 'The Leader word is the Warrior Code.'. No cat has the power to upturn any of the leader's chooses, the only way to do that, is for the majority of the Clan to rebel. We're seen in books, leaders like Brokenstar and Tigerstar have be able to easily take corrupt the system, becoming eerily similar to dictators.
They don't have any form of voting either, the deputy still decided by the leader. There's not much stopping them turning the line of leaders into something akin to a monarchy, simply choosing their deputy based on kin, rather than actual leadership skills. We're seen this kind of thing before with both Rowanstar and Raggedstar choosing their sons.
|
|
|
Post by Πιghtωιηg on Feb 21, 2018 15:59:37 GMT -5
okay here goes:
CLEAR SKY WOOT WOOT
|
|
Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
|
Post by Holly Snow on Feb 21, 2018 16:09:50 GMT -5
Brokenstar was dead by the time Bluestar wanted to visit Moonstone. He'd been dead. Dead because Yellowfang poisoned him and Thunderclan didn't care. There was no excuse to be such a prat. Firestar had been in the clans for 2 years and had saved the entirety of Windclan. Communing with Starclan is also important to the clans and if Tallstar was present he would have let them pass. Racism doesn't justify being a jerk. And as established, Blackstar wasn't that good of a leader. He's just the best Shadowclan has had in generations. Comparing Mudclaw to him doesn't make Mudclaw better. And nationalism isn't an excuse either. Thats something that is bad in excess. The thing that you forgot was that Windclan didn’t know that he was dead during that time they were going to the highstone. Cats will still making fun of Firestar even if he’s leader or has been around for 2 years, yes he’s respected but others will still make fun of him. I don’t agree with what Mudclaw did with Bluestar but I would rather still have him leader over Onestar. they did know he was dead. He had been dead for 3 about 3-6 months, this was enough time for the information to spread. And just because racism was normal, does not mean it was ok. I don't think Mudclaw should be hailed as a great choice for leader simply because he passes the low bar of not being Onestar.
|
|
|
Post by dawn on Feb 21, 2018 16:14:41 GMT -5
The thing about the Onestar vs Mudclaw debate is almost everyone wanted Onewhisker to be leader when Tallstar made him deputy, and most people thought Mudclaw was evil for trying to overthrow him. The only reason anyone changed their minds was because Onestar was the biggest jerk in the whole entire warriors universe. So really, most people didn't want Mudclaw to succeed Tallstar, until they saw how terrible Onestar was.
|
|
|
Post by Πιghtωιηg on Feb 21, 2018 16:25:52 GMT -5
dawn nice avvie. You read the comics?
|
|
|
Post by dawn on Feb 21, 2018 16:26:55 GMT -5
dawn nice avvie. You read the comics? Yes I do!
|
|
Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
|
Post by Holly Snow on Feb 21, 2018 16:39:39 GMT -5
I'd reframe from using words like: Racism, Nationism, Nations, Democracy etc. in a debate about Warrior Cats. Those are feral cats, they won't understand, let practice those complex ideologies. Those are solely human concepts. As I'd argue the Clans are far too small to function like a country with only about 15-40 members, who are all related. They're much more akin to larger families if anything, which is basically what they are. And if we're really going to put a label on their political system, I would say it's more similar to a dictatorship, with one of person holding ultimate power, the leader. Yes, there are others high ranking members like the deputy and Medicine cat who can question them, but at the end of the day, all the final decisions are made by the leader, it's only optional if they seek the advice of others. Even in the Warrior Code, it says, 'The Leader word is the Warrior Code.'. No cat has the power to upturn any of the leader's chooses, the only way to do that, is for the majority of the Clan to rebel. We're seen in books, leaders like Brokenstar and Tigerstar have be able to easily take corrupt the system, becoming eerily similar to dictators. They don't have any form of voting either, the deputy still decided by the leader. There's not much stopping them turning the line of leaders into something akin to a monarchy, simply choosing their deputy based on kin, rather than actual leadership skills. We're seen this kind of thing before with both Rowanstar and Raggedstar choosing their sons. This is obnoxious. The characters in warriors are more human than cat. Sociology terms are also not limited to describing human systems, they are also appropriated to describe social hierarchies among animals where such things exist. The society of warriors is slightly more complex than what the most complex feral cat societies tend to look like (not including lions). The cats also have human like thoughts and emotions. Furthermore, Warriors as a genre is high fantasy. High fantasy often incorporates details about how a world works which includes social and political structure. Added to the fact the central theme, specifically in arc one, is loyalty and character is not determined by your national origin, there is no reason not to treat warriors like a human system in a fantasy setting. Nationalism is thinking your nation is better than others. Tribalism is emphasizing the tribe over all else. Nationalism is merely an expanded version of tribalism and if you equate nation and tribe as being essentially the same thing just on different scales, these concepts are virtually identical. These concepts intersect with the concept of racism, which is prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. Nationalism and racism are different because a nation state is not necessarily made up of one race or ethnicity. In practice however they function similarly. In Warriors society the clans are incredibly homogeneous so these concepts function virtually identically. The clan cats often brag about how great their own clan is and are hostile towards outsiders, often harassing them. They can tell who doesn't belong simply by looking at or smelling the person in question. The limited gene pool has created little ethnicities. And they are hostile because of this. The clan cats act nationalistic, xenophobic, and racist and being a tribe and cat does not change that. Prejudice itself is believed to originate in parts of the brain that are found in many different animals as a way to quickly identify threats. Its wrong to think a fantasy cat in a tribe can't show these "human constructs" And yes the clans are dictatorships. The pitfalls of dictatorships reveal why the clans (shadowclan) have so many issues. its also why I consider Rock to be the series biggest super villain.
|
|
|
Post by Πιghtωιηg on Feb 21, 2018 16:40:30 GMT -5
dawn nice avvie. You read the comics? Yes I do! There's a Marvel chat thread on here I frequent. wcrpforums.com/thread/964/den-open?page=217&scrollTo=1912623 Who's your favorite character? Mine's X-23 at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by dawn on Feb 21, 2018 16:41:05 GMT -5
Πιghtωιηg My favorite is always going to be Deadpool but I'm also a big fan of Spiderman and Hawkeye. I also read some DC too. I love Teen Titans.
|
|
|
Post by Πιghtωιηg on Feb 21, 2018 16:45:00 GMT -5
Hawkeye's good. I've been reading all of 616 chronologically except the Westerns and the stuff like Conan (so just the hero stuff), although there are some ongoing series I follow as well, and some I'm reading in between issues of the old stuff to keep it interesting.
|
|
|
Post by Chocolate-Fawn on Feb 21, 2018 18:06:42 GMT -5
- I think the clans are usually too strict abut letting rogues and loner join. I personally think it's good for the clans to have fresh blood. - Onestar (not onewhisker) is the worst cat known to the warrior cats series, and I think he should go to dark forest for being such a jerk. - Firestar is OP, but I still love that guy. - Crowfeather shouldn't be deputy. - The three overreacted to what Squirrelflight and Leafpool did. I feel almost no sympathy for Jayfeather and Lionblaze because they refused to even listen to the other side of the story. - Hollyleaf was the most annoying character up until The Forgotten Warrior. Also, she's super gay. - This isn't super unpopular, but there needs to be a LGBT character who is outright stated to be LGBT in the books. I think Mothwing has a crush on Leafpool. IDK. But you're right, something to spice the series up
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Feb 21, 2018 19:53:39 GMT -5
Lol, these are called unpopular opinions for a reason. I believed Mudclaw had the right to leadership even before Onestar turned out to be a horrible leader anyways.
As for the incident at Moonstone, the play by play goes like this:
Fireheart was the first to be spotted by the patrol, he was by himself which was suspicious anyways. Bluestar doesn't join them until afterwards.
Bluestar says they have no right to stop them, but Mudclaw says they gave up rights for StarClan's protection after sheltering Brokenstar. They have every right to still be angry about that incident.
The thing here is that Bluestar is the one that chose to back down, she even went along with being escorted back, and even Fireheart was mystified by her behavior. And we don't find out until later that she thought it was because StarClan turned their backs on them, and then we have her abolishing herself from the warrior code and StarClan completely.
In all truthfulness, if you want to be comparing like this, Mudclaw stacks up better than a lot of the cats that actually did become leader anyways. Leopardstar sold out her clan and sided with a power hungry murderer who had her deputy slain right in front of her, Blackstar let Sol trick him into giving up his beliefs, and even prior to that killed to cats in cold blood and still became leader, Firestar himself has broken the code numerous times and has giving ThunderClan a rep for interfering with other clan affairs, Rowanstar can't even keep his own clan together and dispersed it at one point, while the Tigerstar II ran off to chase some tail, leaving his clan to suffer. Brokenstar is an obvious one, actually ShadowClan in general has hat it bad. Tallstar even, caused all this drama. If Tallstar was actually being a good leader he wouldn't have done such a last minute change in the first place, not only did he force an important role on an unprepared cat at the last second, but he cause a ton more issues down the line. Would I have a problem with Tallstar switching out Mudclaw much sooner? No. If he had chosen a different deputy that's fine, but again he did this at the last second on his deathbed and didn't even use the right words for the ceremony. That was wrong. He did Mudclaw wrong, Onestar even and the rest of his clan.
So in comparison to a lot of other leaders, Mudclaw does fair better. Also they're cats, the whole premise of the book is built on the hostility between the clans and loyalties, etc. The Warrior Code literally perceives the life of a kittypet as wrong and lazy, at one point or another all your favs probably treated other cats differently. If you're not into things like that then don't read the book, but understand that in this universe, and how the books are structured, and abiding by it's rules, that's how it is. If you think it's morally wrong, that's fine, but in their story it's not by the majority. Which is why I'm not angry at cats like Mudclaw for his behavior, on the other hand a hyprocrite like Crowfeather, sure, considering he was in two forbidden romances, he has no room to talk. Same with Rowanstar who's mate was originally from ThunderClan, I don't care for characters like that.
Also by the way, Hawkfrost was using Mudclaw. He lied to him. Hawkfrost is the one that approached Mudclaw, and it's noted by Brambleclaw who asks Mistyfoot to keep an eye on his brother. When the battle for WindClan began to shift against Mudclaw thanks to ThunderClan Hawkfrost turned on Mudclaw. Brambleclaw sees him attacking Mudclaw and pinning him down then tries to spin a lie to Brambleclaw. He tries to make it seem like he's the victim in the situation and that Mudclaw was some power hungry cat, leaving out that he wanted to be deputy of WindClan as part of the deal. To which he denied after Mudclaw calls him a liar and points it out. This makes Brambleclaw hesitate, cause this is building up to the fact that Hawkfrost is the one who isn't an honorable cat out of the two and he just wants to become leader some how. He was planning on turning on Mudclaw from the start, he was even trying to get rid of Mistyfoot when she was deputy too. He didn't care what clan it was as long as he became leader somehow, because he's a power hungry cat just like Tigerstar did with ShadowClan. Also Mudclaw, when he tried to escape, Hawkfrost literally rakes into him, attempting to shut him up but Mudclaw still managed to slip away. It's because Mudclaw could have prematurely ruin his plans. Even Squirrelflight heard about what Mudclaw said about Hawkfrost and it fed into her suspicions about him at the time. Hawkfrost actually also uses Mudclaw's death as a cover up too, he's the one that brings back Mudclaw's body to Onestar, he also feigns regret and apologized, and this is enough to convince Brambleclaw but not Squirrelflight.
This also becomes a thing later on, Squirrelflight sided with Mudclaw's reasoning, while Brambleclaw, and even Leafpool, sided with Hawkfrost. This is how the narritive wanted to you think at the time, that the one here that was evil was Mudclaw, not Hawkfrost, it's a literal cover up. It's how Bramble is tricked, and most of the other cats, and the only who figured it out, and was smart enough about it, was Squirrelflight, who turned out to be right all along. Yet she was ridiculed for believing Mudclaw over Hawkfrost, and following her instincts about him.
Another thing people seem to ignore is the fact that it was Tigerstar who encouraged Hawkfrost to approach Mudclaw with his support in the first place. Again, this was all part of their plan from the get go. One of Hawkfrost's key points is that he is in fact a manipulative cat, and good at hiding his emotions and feelings, he's an actor, and can easily trick cats. He's shown to be like this when he was alive, and even in death with his time in the Dark Forest toward other cats like Ivy and Breeze.
|
|