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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2018 10:28:19 GMT -5
I've seen a lot of people saying, things along the lines of, "If Ashfur goes to the Dark Forest, then so does Hollyleaf". I understand that they're crimes are connected to each other, but they're not similar. Both did their crimes for completely different reasons.
Ashfur - He did in reaction to Squirrelflight simply wanting to remain friends and getting creepily obsessed with her. And he started a situation when there wasn't one, against innocent cats that had nothing to do with it. His first attempted murder, he worked with a Riverclan cat, using his own apprentice as scapegoat, claiming Birchpaw was the one who spotted Blackstar. He violently attacked his other apprentice, causing deep wounds. Then tried to burn three cats alive including said apprentice and blind Medicine cat, while their 'mother' was forced to watch. And he didn't care he was going to humiliate the entirety of Thunderclan in front of the gathering, despite being warned 3 separate times not to. He did nothing to redeem himself. He also felt no regret for his actions, even in Starclan, looking at Jayfeather with 'burning eyes' clearly still bitter.
Hollyleaf - Her crimes were in reactions to other cats' crimes, causing her to breakdown. She murdered the cat; who'd literally tried to burn her and littermates in a fire while their 'mother' watched a few days previously, who also admitted he worked with a Riverclan cat to murder their grandfather and was planning on ruining her entire kin's lives, despite being given chance after chance. She revealed the secret in front of the entire gathering, though not quite with the same intent as Ashfur, not with the specific purpose of hurting others, rather then she felt forced/needed to do it becuase she felt it was the right thing to do. Then she tried to kill the Medicine cat/True Mother in private, not forcing anyone to watch, who had lied to everyone, including her and littermates all their lives and betrayed the Warrior code.
However, she felt incredibly guilty afterward, putting herself into self-exile, recognizing what she did was wrong, thinking she didn't deserved her place in Thunderclan . She redeemed herself by: Saving two apprentices and returning to Thunderclan to help prepare them for Windclan tunnel attacks. When her clanmates started to suspect her involvement with Ashfur's death, she was about to tell them the truth but Brambleclaw steps in before she could, covering up for his adoptive daughter. She disapproved of his actions, but ultimately went along with the lie, hiding not only her own crimes but Ashfur's as well. Ironically protecting Ashfur's legacy, being honored/remember as the noble warrior he never was, his true colours never revealed.
She then spared Sol's life despite everything he did and sacrificed herself to save Ivypool. Finally, she forgave Leafpool for what she did to her.
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Post by Kibui on Feb 9, 2018 11:31:05 GMT -5
As someone who believes that should one go to StarClan then so should the other I'm just gonna say this:
We do not know for sure if Ashfur planned to murder Firestar (in fact, I believe the opposite). He may have said that was his intend in Long Shadows, but that could just have been to hurt Squirrelflight even more. The reason I believe this is that for one thing, The Ultimate Guide states that Ashfur couldn't have known just what exactly Hawkfrost had been plannig, Hawkfrost just used his dislike of Brambleclaw to his advantage and the other and more important thing is that when Ashfur runs to ThunderClan's camp to fetch help when Firestar was in the foxtrap, it is noted that he looks scared and Squirrelflight and Leafpool find Firestar by following his fear scent trail. Even if you want to argue he may just have faked his scared reaction (which I doubt, he was never really hiding his true feelings well) there's no way he could have faked fear scent, that's just something the cats in these books never have been able to do.
Even more so we also don't know for sure if Ashfur would have revealed the secret. Whether you think he would or wouldn't have, you can hardly condemn him for something he ultimately never got the chance to do - even if it was with bad intentions (I don't see people condemning Tallstar for planning to murder Sparrow, after all, and he was much closer to actually reaching that goal).
So the crimes Ashfur actually did were almost murdering three cats and treason and/or disloyalty toward Firestar and/or Brambleclaw (because I'm not sure what exactly Hawkfrost said to Ashfur when they were scheming).
In the end it ulitmately comes down to the question who committed worse crimes and who paid the higher price for it (and, no surprise, for me it kind of levels out):
- Attempting but failing to murder three cats in cold blood and scheming (but not neccassarily planning murder) with a cat from another clan and paying for it by getting killed because of it (with no way on knowing whether he would ever have redeemed himself or not, mind you) or - Actually killing a cat in cold blood, attempting to murder a second cat but failing, being disloyal to the clan by spilling its secrets and paying by living in isolation/self-exile and (for the most part) redeeming yourself (because let's not forget that Hollyleaf was too cowardly to stand up for herself and admit the murder when she accepted the alibi Brambleclaw gave her)
And just for the record, because yay controversial Ashfur topics: no I'm not saying that - just because I think Ashfur didn't plan to murder Firestar and the fact that he never actually got to tell the secret - doesn't mean his other two crimes - almost committing triple murder and scheming - are out of the picture or less grave. I also don't intent to excuse his actions with this - well at least not the ones where we know for sure he did them.
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Post by Moonblazer on Feb 9, 2018 12:43:59 GMT -5
The only thing I have to say is that Hollyleaf did tell the secret with the intent to let the clans know, and to directly hurt the involved parties. Hollyleaf knew she was going to ruin Squirrelflight and Leafpool's lives, even if she felt it the right thing to do, which, to be honest, was incredibly stupid anyway. At least tell your leader or your clanmates first instead of letting the other clans go with sudden treason. Cinderheart even begged Hollyleaf as to why she did it, and made it clear that was a bad action.
I understand why Hollyleaf told everyone, but it still really angered me that all she did was do Ashfur's work after killing him and on a larger scale, and then tried to force Leafpool to swallow deathberries before running away from her actions. She did redeem herself, for sure, but while Ashfur gets no free passes for his actions, I don't really give Hollyleaf any either.
Which is why I don't care that Ashfur is in Starclan. It's really not a big deal, and if Hollyleaf is forgiven all her sins for her breakdowns, Ashfur technically is in the same boat. Both were obsessed with their place in other cats eyes, and both resorted to murderous actions to avenge their pain.
To be honest, and this is my opinion that I will NOT be arguing about, Ashfur and Hollyleaf are very similar in many ways. So if both were in either Starclan or the Dark Forest, I really wouldn't care either way.
I'm neutral on both cats because they both had moments of excellency and moments that bothered me incredibly.
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Post by vectoring34 on Feb 9, 2018 16:38:06 GMT -5
The idea that Ashfur didn't know about the trap comes from the Ultimate Guide, but if you're going to rely on that thing, then you also have to accept that apparently Hollyleaf only killed Ashfur by accident. The Ultimate Guide is very janky about that sort of thing and if you're going to take that one bit of it you have to take in Hollyleaf's too. Also, in real life, fear scent does not necessarily refer to outright fear. Anxiety and great excitement can also cause such reactions, so it could just be that he's on the verge of wimping out but trying to keep it clammed up.
The idea that Hollyleaf slapping the death berries in front of Leafpool and telling her to kill herself or she'll do it being attempted murder is fanciful at best. Hollyleaf talked a big game, but unlike Ashfur, she couldn't actually follow through with it and there's no evidence she was doing anything more than bluffing and hoping Leafpool would just do it. Another issue is that Hollyleaf was basically under incredible emotional duress at the time and clearly unstable. This is compared then to Ashfur who had a long time to get over his problems and clearly premediated his crimes rather than simply act on a moment of reckless passion.
It is utterly absurd to compare Hollyleaf killing the same monster who nearly murdered her, her siblings, and her grandfather to said monster doing so in the first place. Furthermore, Ashfur died before any of this could be redeemed whereas Hollyleaf did not and we know this affects your judgement(see Clawface and Blackstar ending up different despite their crimes being basically identical).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2018 18:32:46 GMT -5
As someone who believes that should one go to StarClan then so should the other I'm just gonna say this: We do not know for sure if Ashfur planned to murder Firestar (in fact, I believe the opposite). He may have said that was his intend in Long Shadows, but that could just have been to hurt Squirrelflight even more. The reason I believe this is that for one thing, The Ultimate Guide states that Ashfur couldn't have known just what exactly Hawkfrost had been plannig, Hawkfrost just used his dislike of Brambleclaw to his advantage and the other and more important thing is that when Ashfur runs to ThunderClan's camp to fetch help when Firestar was in the foxtrap, it is noted that he looks scared and Squirrelflight and Leafpool find Firestar by following his fear scent trail. Even if you want to argue he may just have faked his scared reaction (which I doubt, he was never really hiding his true feelings well) there's no way he could have faked fear scent, that's just something the cats in these books never have been able to do. Even more so we also don't know for sure if Ashfur would have revealed the secret. Whether you think he would or wouldn't have, you can hardly condemn him for something he ultimately never got the chance to do - even if it was with bad intentions (I don't see people condemning Tallstar for planning to murder Sparrow, after all, and he was much closer to actually reaching that goal). So the crimes Ashfur actually did were almost murdering three cats and treason and/or disloyalty toward Firestar and/or Brambleclaw (because I'm not sure what exactly Hawkfrost said to Ashfur when they were scheming). In the end it ulitmately comes down to the question who committed worse crimes and who paid the higher price for it (and, no surprise, for me it kind of levels out): - Attempting but failing to murder three cats in cold blood and scheming (but not neccassarily planning murder) with a cat from another clan and paying for it by getting killed because of it (with no way on knowing whether he would ever have redeemed himself or not, mind you) or - Actually killing a cat in cold blood, attempting to murder a second cat but failing, being disloyal to the clan by spilling its secrets and paying by living in isolation/self-exile and (for the most part) redeeming yourself (because let's not forget that Hollyleaf was too cowardly to stand up for herself and admit the murder when she accepted the alibi Brambleclaw gave her) Going off of Smili's and Vectoring's points about the Firestar scheme, I'd like to provide evidence that confirms that Ashfur did indeed have full awareness of what Hawkfrost happened to do and still fully/willing assisted, "Who do you think sent Firestar the message to go down to the lake, where the fox trap was? I wanted him to die, to take your father away so you'd know the real meaning of pain."—Ashfur to Squirrelflight Long Shadows, page 274 Clear as day, Ashfur stated he wanted Firestar to die. And since this from the Main series, it holds alot more water then the contributing Ultimate guilds. Ashfur could of been a ligit fear scent, but necessarily a fear scent for genuine concern for Firestar's well being. Ashfur could be scared for a different reason, like fear of getting caught or just the fact he was killing someone, most characters ain't going to calm in those soft of scenarios. And his actions during the scene may point to the latter, as when Squirrelflight and Leafpool are about to try and find Firestar, Ashfur appears, which is where he uses the 'Birchpaw spotted Blackstar on the border' excuse, slightly panicked they're close to finding the truth, so hurriedly tries to lead them away. And personally, I don't blame Hollyleaf for Ashfur's murder, he had it coming to him. (Though I still don't excuse Leafpool's attempted murder, she'd already been exposed, Hollyleaf should of left Leafpool's fate up to Firestar). Like said before, literally just days previous: Ashfur had attempted to burn her and her littermates alive in a fire, one of the most horrible ways to die, all while their 'mother' was forced to watch. Then admitted he'd worked with a Riverclan cat to kill their grandfather. And was going to ruin her entire kin's lives at the expense of humiliating the whole of Thunderclan, despite being warned three separate times not to. I can't blame a victim for killing their families': Attempted murderer and blackmailer. If Lionblaze had killed him instead, I would feel no different. In fact, I consider it self-defense, Hollyleaf was protecting her family. Even if Ashfur wasn't directly attacking her at time, he still a very active threat, who'd just to kill them a few days ago and could very easily try and kill again. Killing him wasn't even against the code, as it says not to kill unless it's self-defense like stated previously or the cat is outside of the Warrior code. Which Ashfur differently was by this point, already having lied, betrayed and attempted to murder his clanmates. He was acting as his own independent force by that point, not caring about Thunderclan's well being anymore, he was a rogue among Thunderclan. There's honestly wasn't a whole she could of done other then killing him, he clearly beyond reason after 3 others had already tried. If Squirrelflight or Lionblaze couldn't get him to listen, then Hollyleaf different wouldn't. If she had gone to Firestar, then that would be counterproductive as that's the whole thing they're trying to avoid, allowing the secret to come out. Yes, it was less worse out of the two scenarios, either reveal it privately in Thunderclan or let it be revealed in front of the entire gathering, but neither at good. Having Ashfur exiled, may of made him even more bitter and dangerous, possibly returning to trying and kill them again. Hollyleaf could of heard the stories of Tigerstar and Darkstripe and how they were exiled, but that didn't stop them committing more murders. Even from Hollyleaf's own experience, Sol was chased out, time and time again, yet he never stopped being a threat. So if exile didn't stop those cats, it probably wouldn't of stopped Ashfur.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2018 18:43:10 GMT -5
Furthermore, Ashfur died before any of this could be redeemed whereas Hollyleaf did not and we know this affects your judgment (see Clawface and Blackstar ending up different despite their crimes being basically identical). Admittedly this is true. However, if Hollyleaf allowed him allowed to live, she ran the risk of him trying to kill again. Having him exiled probably wouldn't of worked as Darkstripe, Tigerstar, Mapleshade and Sol were exiled, yet that didn't stop them being threats, continuing to kill (or at least try) others. Arguably in made some of them even more dangerous. And Ashfur could have become even more bitter, possibly going back to murder again, which this time he could of succeeded in. Even though he wasn't given the chance to redeem himself for his actions in the living world, he had plenty of time to regret his actions in Starclan however even then, he doesn't, looking at one of his innocent victims, Jayfeather with 'burning eyes', still harbouring hatred against a cat that he committed crimes against, not the other way around. Ashfur didn't apologize or say anything, he just ignores him, hopping away as quickly as possible. Ashfur has never reappeared since, never visited any of his victim's dreams to say sorry. He didn't even appear in Thunderclan during the Great Battle, defending his clanmates like he should of. He could of saved Ferncloud or at least been there to mourn/guild for her. <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 896px; top: -312px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_37043761"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -184px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_80232574"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 896px; top: -184px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_42848932"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 0px; top: 0px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_78857"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 896px; top: -329px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_17004078"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -201px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_27495032"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 896px; top: -201px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_12694596"></iframe> If Hollyleaf died in the tunnels, not given a chance to redeem herself like Ashfur, at the very least she felt great remorse for her actions.
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Post by Moonblazer on Feb 9, 2018 19:08:49 GMT -5
Furthermore, Ashfur died before any of this could be redeemed whereas Hollyleaf did not and we know this affects your judgment (see Clawface and Blackstar ending up different despite their crimes being basically identical). Admittedly this is true. However, if Hollyleaf allowed him allowed to live, she ran the risk of him trying to kill again. Having him exiled probably wouldn't of worked as Darkstripe, Tigerstar, Mapleshade and Sol were exiled, yet that didn't stop them being threats, continuing to kill (or at least try) others. Arguably in made some of them even more dangerous. And Ashfur could have become even more bitter, possibly going back to murder again, which this time he could of succeeded in. Even though he wasn't given the chance to redeem himself for his actions in the living world, he had plenty of time to regret his actions in Starclan however even then, he doesn't, looking at one of his innocent victims, Jayfeather with 'burning eyes', still harbouring hatred against a cat that he committed crimes against, not the other way around. Ashfur didn't apologize or say anything, he just ignores him, hopping away as quickly as possible. Ashfur has never reappeared since, never visited any of his victim's dreams to say sorry. He didn't even appear in Thunderclan during the Great Battle, defending his clanmates like he should of. He could of saved Ferncloud or at least been there to mourn/guild for her. <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 896px; top: -312px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_37043761"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -184px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_80232574"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 896px; top: -184px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_42848932"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 0px; top: 0px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_78857"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 896px; top: -329px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_17004078"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 10px; top: -201px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_27495032"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 896px; top: -201px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_12694596"></iframe> If Hollyleaf died in the tunnels, not given a chance to redeem herself like Ashfur, at the very least she felt great remorse for her actions. To be fair though, I don't think they showed Ashfur doing anything in Starclan because of the backlash they would have gotten. If Ashfur tried to redeem himself in Starclan, I don't think it would have done anything. If he was in the Dark Forest, I still doubt he would have been used. The Erin's ruined Ashfur's character specifically to add drama to BrambleXSquirrel and it saddened me because I really liked Ashfur in his youth. I prefer that he wasn't shown. It prevents needless arguments and backlash from those who are truly passionate about wanting him in kitty hell and those who don't, which I lost the energy for yearrrrs ago.
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Feb 9, 2018 21:01:57 GMT -5
I think Hollyleaf's actions are afforded a lot less nuance by fans of her than they really should be. In fact if you think about her actions, they really are not that honerable at all.
When Hollyleaf killed Ashfur, she was doing that to protect her own reputation. She grew up in an environment where not being clan born was subject to always being looked down upon by your clanmates and having Windclan, the biggest jerks in the forest, try to drive you out. Hollyleaf's prestigious position of racial purity was at stake. Her life was not at stake. In a way the clan's racism, and likewise her own, both saved her and destroyed her. It gave Ashfur a weapon better than death to ruin her and her family but it also made her care about something so trivial that it drove her to kill. Realistically if the truth got out, all that would have happened is some dirty looks. It was Hollyleaf who thought this was life or death. When in reality it wasn't. You mention Leafpool hurting Hollyleaf, but really all leafpool did was give birth and try to make best of a situation not in her favor. The clan's laws suck and if they were not in place, none of this would have happened.
Then there is revealing the truth about her heritage at the gathering. It is true Hollleaf tried to justify this as "telling the truth is a good thing and this is about justice", but if you pay attention to her thought process, you will notice how much she rants about how awful Leafpool is. Her thoughts are littered with hatred for her and how she wishes for Leafpool to be punished. Then when inevitably Thundeclan is more angry at her than Leafpool, she gets more disturbed, and she decides to force Leafpool to kill herself. And this is where things get interesting. Leafpool tells her that she had already lost everything, what would hurt more, to die or to go on living with her life. Hollyleaf decides that letting leafpool live with herself was a worse punishment and runs away. This is exactly how Squirrelflight got Ashfur to spare the three's lives. Ashfur held their lives over her head, so she made it out like they didn't matter to her. That her reputation meant more to her than them. Thus she gave Ashfur, "a punishment worse than death". Hollyleaf tried to use the secret as a punishment worse than death, just as Ashfur had. And for what purpose? Not for justice, but to hurt Leafpool. The parallels to Ashfur become more vivid when you recall the Things Ashfur said about Squirrelflight before his death. "liars and betrayers deserved to be punished". In Ashfur's mind he believed he was doing the clans a justice by hurting Squirrelflight. Hollyleaf and Ashfur's actions were essentially the same crime of passion. They were the same plots but different days.
There is also the interesting fact that Hollyleaf was willing to be a terrorist in the name of the warrior code because she hated everyone so much for dishonoring it. Despite the fact doing this would have destroyed the clans and the code.
This is why I find Ashfur's death to be tragic. He deserved what he got no doubt, but he died in vain. I know death is rather cheap in warriors, but dying still sucks. Ashfur died to prevent a secret from going out, only for the one who silenced him, to do exactly what he was going to do. Hollyleaf did all this stuff to protect herself and in the end she is the one who destroyed herself. And according to her novella and the end of Sunrise, she didn't really understand what she did was wrong till after she and Fallen Leaves extensively talked. This shows that shes sadly really not as noble as we thought she was. The reason I think they should both go to starclan is because hollyleaf got a chance to repent, while ashfur had to repent with his life. They paid high prices for what they did. The greatest insult to them is the writers never giving either of their arcs resolution.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Feb 10, 2018 0:10:10 GMT -5
Whether he's in StarClan or not, I don't really care at anymore. I'm more annoyed that he didn't fight in the final battle to at least protect his sister, Ferncloud, who's mercilessly murdered. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2018 7:18:12 GMT -5
To be fair though, I don't think they showed Ashfur doing anything in Starclan because of the backlash they would have gotten. If Ashfur tried to redeem himself in Starclan, I don't think it would have done anything. If he was in the Dark Forest, I still doubt he would have been used. The Erin's ruined Ashfur's character specifically to add drama to BrambleXSquirrel and it saddened me because I really liked Ashfur in his youth. I prefer that he wasn't shown. It prevents needless arguments and backlash from those who are truly passionate about wanting him in kitty hell and those who don't, which I lost the energy for yearrrrs ago. I'd say the Erins gets so much backlash is becuase he ended up in Starclan, getting away with attempted murder of 4 scot-free, even having his crimes being labeled as 'Love', which is a dangerous message for kids. If he went to the Dark Forest, there would probably be still bash-lash, but not nearly as much, I'd say Ashfur lovers are a minority, while the silent majority don't think he should get away with his crimes but just not bothered enough to speak up and get involved in the endless Ashfur debates. This is why I thought the Erins should of made Ashfur kill off a minor character, in order to really nail in why he deserves the Dark Forest. I mean people hate him so much, not becuase for what he'd did but the fact he got away with it. Tigerstar killed 9+ cats but you don't nearly as many posts dedicated to bashing him. This is what's so frustrating about Ashfur, I'm so unsatisfied with his story, he got killed off before he could really get started as a villain and shoved into Starclan, the Erins hoping you'd forget about him. There's no closer. Ashfur doesn't learn anything in Starclan, he's still as bitter as ever with the burning eyes example. He doesn't admit that he did was wrong or learn to forgive Squirrelflight or Hollyleaf. Or he should of gone to the Dark Forest and treated like the villain he is, his character developing further to become even more revengeful, the other Dark Forest cats easily able to manipulate the gullible tom, showing just how out of his league he really is. Him not appearing in the Great Battle is a huge missed opportunity: He could of helped defend Squirrelflight or one of her kits, maybe pulling a Spottedleaf, sacrificing himself or killing a major Dark Forest cat. Or at the very least, he should of be there for Ferncloud's death. If he's sent to the Dark Forest, make him seem tragic and pathetic, completely consumed by his emotions, a shadow of his former self. With Squirrelflight forced to reluctantly kill him or drive him away.
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Post by Moonblazer on Feb 10, 2018 8:59:24 GMT -5
To be fair though, I don't think they showed Ashfur doing anything in Starclan because of the backlash they would have gotten. If Ashfur tried to redeem himself in Starclan, I don't think it would have done anything. If he was in the Dark Forest, I still doubt he would have been used. The Erin's ruined Ashfur's character specifically to add drama to BrambleXSquirrel and it saddened me because I really liked Ashfur in his youth. I prefer that he wasn't shown. It prevents needless arguments and backlash from those who are truly passionate about wanting him in kitty hell and those who don't, which I lost the energy for yearrrrs ago. I'd say the Erins gets so much backlash is becuase he ended up in Starclan, getting away with attempted murder of 4 scot-free, even having his crimes being labeled as 'Love', which is a dangerous message for kids. If he went to the Dark Forest, there would probably be still bash-lash, but not nearly as much, I'd say Ashfur lovers are a minority, while the silent majority don't think he should get away with his crimes but just not bothered enough to speak up and get involved in the endless Ashfur debates. This is why I thought the Erins should of made Ashfur kill off a minor character, in order to really nail in why he deserves the Dark Forest. I mean people hate him so much, not becuase for what he'd did but the fact he got away with it. Tigerstar killed 9+ cats but you don't nearly as many posts dedicated to bashing him. This is what's so frustrating about Ashfur, I'm so unsatisfied with his story, he got killed off before he could really get started as a villain and shoved into Starclan, the Erins hoping you'd forget about him. There's no closer. Ashfur doesn't learn anything in Starclan, he's still as bitter as ever with the burning eyes example. He doesn't admit that he did was wrong or learn to forgive Squirrelflight or Hollyleaf. Or he should of gone to the Dark Forest and treated like the villain he is, his character developing further to become even more revengeful, the other Dark Forest cats easily able to manipulate the gullible tom, showing just how out of his league he really is. Him not appearing in the Great Battle is a huge missed opportunity: He could of helped defend Squirrelflight or one of her kits, maybe pulling a Spottedleaf, sacrificing himself or killing a major Dark Forest cat. Or at the very least, he should of be there for Ferncloud's death. If he's sent to the Dark Forest, make him seem tragic and pathetic, completely consumed by his emotions, a shadow of his former self. With Squirrelflight forced to reluctantly kill him or drive him away. This is a series where Thistleclaw and Spottedleaf had a romance, where Hollyleaf physically murdered a cat in her anger, where Darktail drowned his victims and cats who are kin are mating with eachother. I think there are plenty of bad messages for kids, but I really don't think they'll focus on a cat who went to Starclan and didn't ever show up again. I mean, I was a kid when Ashfur did what he did and died, went to Starclan, and it never even phased me. It never bothered me or made me desire to hurt anyone simply because I could get into heaven or something XD
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Post by gonxkillua on Feb 10, 2018 12:45:50 GMT -5
Whether he's in StarClan or not, I don't really care at anymore. I'm more annoyed that he didn't fight in the final battle to at least protect his sister, Ferncloud who's mercilessly murdered. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That was an extremely wasted chance to redeem Ashfur and acually justify his place in Starclan imo.
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Pansexual
Thylacine
"Nevertheless, she persisted."
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Post by Thylacine on Feb 10, 2018 21:32:08 GMT -5
Imo, no, they aren't. Their drives for power are completely different, and in my mind Ashfur's was always more revenge than power-based in the first place. You have one who just wants everything to go according to law, which is a very non self-centric drive, and you have one who is really angry at one (or arguably two) individuals in particular and just wants to see them suffer for his own sake, a very self-driven sort of anger.
Personally, as far as "villain" (can I call her that?) style goes I much prefer Hollyleaf, because she seems to still have somewhat of a moral compass even if it's extremely flawed, which in turn leaves more room for character development. Ashfur just seems like a pretty one-dimensional character who I basically grew to hate more and more as the series progressed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2018 23:18:52 GMT -5
This might be a weird explanation about how I feel about the two characters, but as a political science professor once told my class, "If two sides of the political spectrum get far enough away from each other, they'll end up agreeing with each other on everything, just for completely different reasons". Ashfur and Hollyleaf are like that- one doing horrible things due to extreme lawlessness and one doing horrible things due to extreme lawfulness. Ashfur never did what he did in the name of the warrior code- the warrior code was far from his mind. Hollyleaf did everything in the name of the warrior code, it was always on her mind. And yet they were nearly identical in their actions and intentions.
I mean I don't quite know how it works but this is just how I see it. One let go of the warrior code and one held on to it too firmly, the two extremes created the same disastrous results.
So like, I wouldn’t go so far to say they are the same- as I wouldn’t call a Fascist and a Communist the same- but they ended up the same no matter how different they wanted to be from one another.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Feb 11, 2018 2:38:18 GMT -5
Whether he's in StarClan or not, I don't really care at anymore. I'm more annoyed that he didn't fight in the final battle to at least protect his sister, Ferncloud who's mercilessly murdered. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That was an extremely wasted chance to redeem Ashfur and acually justify his place in Starclan imo. Exactly. They did it with Mudclaw, showing him helping StarClan prepare for battle, proving even further, at the time, he wasn't a bad cat, and deserved to be there. But they couldn't do it with Ashfur??
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 10:02:59 GMT -5
Ack. As much as I hate Ashfur, I absolutely detest Hollyleaf so Ash will always come out on top for me.
I think Ashfur did the worse crimes for the worse reasons. However, that doesn't mean what Hollyleaf did wasn't, also, utterly despicable.
A trend I've seen regarding Hollyleaf is that everything she did was for other cats, and whilst I can respect that argument, I also have to disagree with it. In my opinion, Hollyleaf is a very selfish character. I really, really, really do not believe she killed Ashfur for anything other than 'you're going to reveal my secret and I don't want you to.' She was killing him to keep him quiet. And as much as I think Ashfur's actions were despicable and he deserved to go to the Dark Forest, I can't agree with Hollyleaf killing him. If she killed him in the fire to escape, then absolutely, she was justified. But 'self-defence' doesn't hold up when the murder occurs three days after whatever the murderer is defending themselves against. You could argue Hollyleaf was scared of what the Clans would do to her if Ashfur told them the truth, but...well. Hollyleaf had enough evidence by that point to realize Firestar wasn't going to punish her for it.
I think she spilled the secret to the Clans simply to punish Leafpool. And when that backfired, because Cinderheart pointed out what Hollyleaf did was wrong, she tried to punish Leafpool again via murder/suicide. As far as I'm aware, the only reason Hollyleaf doesn't murder her own mother is because Leafpool would face more pain in life than in death. That's not an honourable reason to let someone live. That's a sickening reason to let someone live.
So...yeah, I honestly do think they're comparable, and I have no qualms about comparing them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 14:25:08 GMT -5
this year it will have been ten glorious years since assfur was murdered. yo holla
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Feb 11, 2018 14:54:27 GMT -5
this year it will have been ten glorious years since assfur was murdered. yo holla that can't be right i thought he was killed in 2009
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 14:54:48 GMT -5
this year it will have been ten glorious years since assfur was murdered. yo holla that can't be right i thought he was killed in 2009 November 2008
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 8:48:14 GMT -5
that can't be right i thought he was killed in 2009 November 2008 Did it really come out that far back? I couldn't even read back then.
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smilii
trying to be more active!
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Post by smilii on Feb 17, 2018 13:06:56 GMT -5
this year it will have been ten glorious years since assfur was murdered. yo holla fantastic news. we must celebrate the death of trashfur by appreciating squirrelflight as much as humanly possible
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 13:20:09 GMT -5
this year it will have been ten glorious years since assfur was murdered. yo holla fantastic news. we must celebrate the death of trashfur by appreciating squirrelflight as much as humanly possible 25 November, was the day Long Shadows was realized to the world and we got to experience the greatness that was Ashfur's death. It should become a Global Holiday, Trashfur day.
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smilii
trying to be more active!
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Post by smilii on Feb 17, 2018 14:07:27 GMT -5
fantastic news. we must celebrate the death of trashfur by appreciating squirrelflight as much as humanly possible 25 November, was the day Long Shadows was realized to the world and we got to experience the greatness that was Ashfur's death. It should become a Global Holiday, Trashfur day. Absolutely. Trashfur Day shall be a celebration for all who loathe the Warriors Nice Guy Unrelated but what are your thoughts on RevengeShipping? I like it because of how ridiculous it is.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 14:18:25 GMT -5
25 November, was the day Long Shadows was realized to the world and we got to experience the greatness that was Ashfur's death. It should become a Global Holiday, Trashfur day. Absolutely. Trashfur Day shall be a celebration for all who loathe the Warriors Nice Guy Unrelated but what are your thoughts on RevengeShipping? I like it because of how ridiculous it is. As a joke, it's funny, like JayxStick. But as an actual ship... No. I'm not that big on shipping anyway, I tend to just stick to the canon, but even I can tell how ridiculous it is. Ashfur and Scourge had no contact: Ashfur only saw him twice as an apprentice and that's it, they never share any lines of dialogue. Scourge would have no reason to treat Ashpaw any differently. Even if Scourge came into contact with him, he would of killed Ashpaw on the spot for being a Clan cat and killing his friend, Bone. I think people only ship them because people see them as 'poor misunderstood emo babies'.
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