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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2018 23:40:54 GMT -5
I think this has been talked about several times already, but I wanted to add my two cents in this topic.
Even as a conservative-in-self-training, I can respect people or fictional characters not wanting to be in a religion, and religion's not for everyone. But with Cloudtail and Mothwing...they've seen StarClan already. They've seen dead cats rising from the grave, forty days and forty nights of darkness, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, MASS HYSTERIA!
...sorry. Anyway, those two have already seen dead cats (good and bad) coming back from beyond death to fight in the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny. Heck, Cloudtail's seen Darkstripe (who was killed by Graystripe in the BloodClan battle), and I bet Mothwing must've seen Hawkfrost at some point. But in The Apprentice's Quest, even after all that living breathing meowing evidence...they still don't think StarClan's real?
Yeah, this may seem like a mini rant (and there might've been continuity errors with those two), but it's something I just wanted to get off my chest. What do you guys think?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2018 23:48:03 GMT -5
It bothers me too. There's no excuse for them to not believe in StarClan at this point. It makes them look stupid to deny its existence. Denying StarClan makes as much sense as a cat denying that Firestar existed, or denying that they live around a lake. It makes no sense and there's plenty of proof.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 0:01:36 GMT -5
I can't remember who told a fan that they still don't believe in StarClan- I think it was Kate- but I think she was just caught in a tough moment where she was afraid that people would be upset if the did believe in StarClan now- and feel that their favorite characters were ruined now that they were no longer atheist. Which I think is a fair concern- the series was already in hot water when it only had 2 known atheist characters and then simultaneously had the supernatural start a world war, and so she'd naturally want to hold onto what little atheist characters the series had instead of giving them up to the plotline. It'd mean giving up what makes Mothwing and Cloudtail so interesting and unique in the series.
But I honestly don't see why Kate would be concerned. Atheism isn't the denial of anything religious, it's the denial of anything without proof. And if they get it I'm pretty sure they'd be satisfied. Plus Mothwing and Cloudtail no longer disbelieving in StarClan wouldn't have meant the end of atheist characters- a couple of them in WindClan and ShadowClan were mentioned literally a book or two into AVOS. And there would always be the potential for atheist cats as long as ghosts don't just appear in front of them all of a sudden. So it really wouldn't have been much of a loss.
I just think Kate didn't want to disappoint anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 0:05:48 GMT -5
I can't remember who told a fan that they still don't believe in StarClan- I think it was Kate- but I think she was just caught in a tough moment where she was afraid that people would be upset if the did believe in StarClan now- and feel that their favorite characters were ruined now that they were no longer atheist. Which I think is a fair concern- the series was already in hot water when it only had 2 known atheist characters and then simultaneously had the supernatural start a world war, and so she'd naturally want to hold onto what little atheist characters the series had instead of giving them up to the plotline. It'd mean giving up what makes Mothwing and Cloudtail so interesting and unique in the series. But I honestly don't see why Kate would be concerned. Atheism isn't the denial of anything religious, it's the denial of anything without proof. And if they get it I'm pretty sure they'd be satisfied. Plus Mothwing and Cloudtail no longer disbelieving in StarClan wouldn't have meant the end of atheist characters- a couple of them in WindClan and ShadowClan were mentioned literally a book or two into AVOS. And there would always be the potential for atheist cats as long as ghosts don't just appear in front of them all of a sudden. So it really wouldn't have been much of a loss. I just think Kate didn't want to disappoint anyone. Yeah...I guess you're right. |
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Feb 5, 2018 0:15:05 GMT -5
I never understood this either, especially with Mothwing. This was just handled really poorly. At least with cats like Sleekwhisker and Beenose, it's a little more understandable, as they didn't witness Rowanstar lose any of his lives and were born long after the Great Battle, which Cloudtail and Mothwing had both experienced.
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Post by gonxkillua on Feb 5, 2018 0:48:12 GMT -5
Agreed, it makes no sense at all that Cloud and Moth don't believe in Starclan now since they have seen dead cats with their own eyes. I get with the Erins were trying to do with thier charaters but this is not how Atheism works. Real Atheists would belive in god if they saw undeniable proof he was real I'm sure.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Feb 5, 2018 12:44:46 GMT -5
Gaaahhh! Does anybody remember the mention that Cloudtail still doesn't believe in StarClan? I can't remember if it was said in the new series. If so, seriously?
However, reading that line about Mothwing at the Moonpool genuinely made me laugh and also really annoyed me. It wasn't even a good excuse! It just said something along the lines of, "Alderheart knew Mothwing didn't believe in StarClan. Even after the battle with the Dark Forest, she thought the Dark Forest warriors were rogues who came from beyond Clan territory."
LIKE WHAT??? LOGIC???? Literally everybody in the battle were talking about how the warriors were see-through and seeing dead cats. I know we didn't get any RiverClan scenes during the battle, but really? She's been in the Clan for years now. Did she seriously see no cat in the battle? She's witnessed many cats die and presumably, if not all, most joined StarClan, and they came back to fight against the Dark Forest. C'mon, Mothwing. Get it together. Get your life in order, ffs.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Feb 5, 2018 13:13:37 GMT -5
Gaaahhh! Does anybody remember the mention that Cloudtail still doesn't believe in StarClan? I can't remember if it was said in the new series. If so, seriously? However, reading that line about Mothwing at the Moonpool genuinely made me laugh and also really annoyed me. It wasn't even a good excuse! It just said something along the lines of, "Alderheart knew Mothwing didn't believe in StarClan. Even after the battle with the Dark Forest, she thought the Dark Forest warriors were rogues who came from beyond Clan territory." LIKE WHAT??? LOGIC???? Literally everybody in the battle were talking about how the warriors were see-through and seeing dead cats. I know we didn't get any RiverClan scenes during the battle, but really? She's been in the Clan for years now. Did she seriously see no cat in the battle? She's witnessed many cats die and presumably, if not all, most joined StarClan, and they came back to fight against the Dark Forest. C'mon, Mothwing. Get it together. Get your life in order, ffs. It was Vicky who said that, although it was before AVoS. However, Cloudtail does at least acknowledge the existence of prophecies in TAQ, so that's something at least. But Mothwing really confused me. Okay, maybe she didn't recognize the cats and didn't even see Hawkfrost, if he attacked RiverClan at all. But surely Leopardstar and several of her old Clanmates must've shown up to fight beside the Clans. How does one explain that? And even before then, there are times where StarClan has made themselves known to her, like with the flaming reed. And surely she would've witnessed either Leopardstar or Mistystar lose a life at least once. It doesn't make any sense! |
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Feb 5, 2018 13:34:58 GMT -5
Gaaahhh! Does anybody remember the mention that Cloudtail still doesn't believe in StarClan? I can't remember if it was said in the new series. If so, seriously? However, reading that line about Mothwing at the Moonpool genuinely made me laugh and also really annoyed me. It wasn't even a good excuse! It just said something along the lines of, "Alderheart knew Mothwing didn't believe in StarClan. Even after the battle with the Dark Forest, she thought the Dark Forest warriors were rogues who came from beyond Clan territory." LIKE WHAT??? LOGIC???? Literally everybody in the battle were talking about how the warriors were see-through and seeing dead cats. I know we didn't get any RiverClan scenes during the battle, but really? She's been in the Clan for years now. Did she seriously see no cat in the battle? She's witnessed many cats die and presumably, if not all, most joined StarClan, and they came back to fight against the Dark Forest. C'mon, Mothwing. Get it together. Get your life in order, ffs. It was Vicky who said that, although it was before AVoS. However, Cloudtail does at least acknowledge the existence of prophecies in TAQ, so that's something at least. But Mothwing really confused me. Okay, maybe she didn't recognize the cats and didn't even see Hawkfrost, if he attacked RiverClan at all. But surely Leopardstar and several of her old Clanmates must've shown up to fight beside the Clans. How does one explain that? And even before then, there are times where StarClan has made themselves known to her, like with the flaming reed. And surely she would've witnessed either Leopardstar or Mistystar lose a life at least once. It doesn't make any sense! That makes more sense. I looked it up on the Wikia, but the consensus seems to be that he does believe and will go to StarClan, so at least there's that. My thoughts exactly. Sure, don't believe it considering the fact that you had to have seen Leopardstar die and come back a few times, and also most likely saw Mistystar lose a life or two. I guess it's possible that she didn't witness that (/rolls eyes) since nobody in WindClan could say how many lives Onestar had left. Even Alderheart thought it was weird that nobody seemed to count them, but whatever. But after the Dark Battle? I'm flabbergasted. I always saw her as a pretty smart cat, but that's just straight up stupidity at this point. She's in some weird denial limbo for reasons that I'm sure we'll never be able to explore, which is a pity, because I seriously want her to get in a debate with someone over this. I'd love to see her logic and not just some throwaway line. |
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Feb 5, 2018 13:42:44 GMT -5
It was Vicky who said that, although it was before AVoS. However, Cloudtail does at least acknowledge the existence of prophecies in TAQ, so that's something at least. But Mothwing really confused me. Okay, maybe she didn't recognize the cats and didn't even see Hawkfrost, if he attacked RiverClan at all. But surely Leopardstar and several of her old Clanmates must've shown up to fight beside the Clans. How does one explain that? And even before then, there are times where StarClan has made themselves known to her, like with the flaming reed. And surely she would've witnessed either Leopardstar or Mistystar lose a life at least once. It doesn't make any sense! That makes more sense. I looked it up on the Wikia, but the consensus seems to be that he does believe and will go to StarClan, so at least there's that. My thoughts exactly. Sure, don't believe it considering the fact that you had to have seen Leopardstar die and come back a few times, and also most likely saw Mistystar lose a life or two. I guess it's possible that she didn't witness that (/rolls eyes) since nobody in WindClan could say how many lives Onestar had left. Even Alderheart thought it was weird that nobody seemed to count them, but whatever. But after the Dark Battle? I'm flabbergasted. I always saw her as a pretty smart cat, but that's just straight up stupidity at this point. She's in some weird denial limbo for reasons that I'm sure we'll never be able to explore, which is a pity, because I seriously want her to get in a debate with someone over this. I'd love to see her logic and not just some throwaway line. I'm pretty sure Cloudtail would've gone to StarClan either way. Beenose was supposed to have died in TAS due to sickness, and went to StarClan despite not believing in them. Then again, it's implied that she drowned in SS despite this, and she appears with the other trapped spirits in DN, so take it with a grain of salt, I guess? I'll say it once and I'll say it again, the Erins need to plan things out better. But anyway, I agree. Mothwing's lack of faith has gotten ridiculous at this point. What about when she dies and likely goes to StarClan herself? She's going to deny that, too? |
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Post by Chocolate-Fawn on Feb 15, 2018 20:19:51 GMT -5
Look I like Mothwing but she can be an idiot, so can Cloudtail. I honestly don't know why after Vision of Shadows they didn't start showing any graduate to StarClan!! I mean they literally thought dead people!!!
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Feb 15, 2018 20:49:25 GMT -5
As an Atheist myself, if I had seen the equivalent of Heaven VS. Hell right before my very eyes, I would obviously not be an Atheist anymore. I mean come on. There's no reason for Cloudtail or Mothwing to not believe in StarClan anymore. In the Warrior Cats world, StarClan is proven to exist. While in the real world, religion doesn't have 100% sound proof.
Kate not wanting to disappoint anyone is poor writing imho.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 3:20:14 GMT -5
Maybe Cloudtail and Mothwing believe in spirits, but they don't believe they have all those crazy supernatural powers that other cats claim Starclan has like bringing dead cats back to life. So when he faced Darkstripe, he thought he was just fighting a powerless ghost that wanders the earth, not a cat that comes from an endless/limbo forest that slowly drives you insane.
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