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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 10:20:15 GMT -5
I think Tree would be better to explain most of your points as Im kind of shown to put mine out there and have them not explained correctly, but I'd like to point out about a baby is born into sin. I do not believe that is necessarily true. If a child lies and does not know what lying is, is that their fault? No. It's up to those who raised the child to allow the child to understand. It is then when the child knows that lying is bad, that it is truly wrong. I believe people who were never taught or had a chance to learn about Christ will go to Heaven, because they never had the chance in their life. Just as a child were to never know that lying was bad. It is truly only bad when the child knows. The concept behind that whole thing is Original Sin, the sin we inherit no matter what from Adam and Eve's first sin. Personally, to me it's just an analogy saying that humanity has always been nothing but sinners. Also, I don't know about your specific example of lying, but ignorance of the rules never serves as justification for breaking them. We are all born as sinners and therefore need Christ's salvation the moment we exist. This is what I was taught in my religious high school, and it is the widespread belief for a lot of Christians. Your quote there is probably the core of what I'm talking about: "I believe people who were never taught or had a chance to learn about Christ will go to Heaven, because they never had the chance in their life." This would sure be logical, but then there's those gray areas of educated people making the conscience decision to follow a different religion other than the 'right one'. The reasoning behind their choice could be the result of so many factors that we couldn't possibly account for - our only choice would be to leave it up to God to decide. I expect God is all-knowing and understanding and such, but then one of the most basic requirements for heaven is to believe.
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Post by Lightningdawn on Aug 28, 2016 10:26:44 GMT -5
I'd like to chime in about the original sin thing.
In the RLDS church, and I'm assuming LDS too, we believe a child is not accountable for their sins until they become eight years old, because they don't know any better. But, after they become eight or older, then they can be baptized for their sins that they begin doing. I just felt I should put this out there.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 11:00:18 GMT -5
@lightnindawn
I've never heard of that before, that's interesting. I disagree with it in that it's hard to determine what the age is that a person moves from unconscious sinning to conscious sinning. But it's still good to know.
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 28, 2016 11:49:20 GMT -5
I think Tree would be better to explain most of your points as Im kind of shown to put mine out there and have them not explained correctly, but I'd like to point out about a baby is born into sin. I do not believe that is necessarily true. If a child lies and does not know what lying is, is that their fault? No. It's up to those who raised the child to allow the child to understand. It is then when the child knows that lying is bad, that it is truly wrong. I believe people who were never taught or had a chance to learn about Christ will go to Heaven, because they never had the chance in their life. Just as a child were to never know that lying was bad. It is truly only bad when the child knows. The concept behind that whole thing is Original Sin, the sin we inherit no matter what from Adam and Eve's first sin. Personally, to me it's just an analogy saying that humanity has always been nothing but sinners. Also, I don't know about your specific example of lying, but ignorance of the rules never serves as justification for breaking them. We are all born as sinners and therefore need Christ's salvation the moment we exist. This is what I was taught in my religious high school, and it is the widespread belief for a lot of Christians. Your quote there is probably the core of what I'm talking about: "I believe people who were never taught or had a chance to learn about Christ will go to Heaven, because they never had the chance in their life." This would sure be logical, but then there's those gray areas of educated people making the conscience decision to follow a different religion other than the 'right one'. The reasoning behind their choice could be the result of so many factors that we couldn't possibly account for - our only choice would be to leave it up to God to decide. I expect God is all-knowing and understanding and such, but then one of the most basic requirements for heaven is to believe. The child thing wasn't a good example, but Im glad you understood the point I was trying to make about going to Heaven.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 13:38:52 GMT -5
Hang in there man, sleep takes priority over responding to satanic posts. Elaboration is always appreciated. I understand the concept that no one, literally not a single person, is without sin. I agree completely. However, despite this, I think there's so much more to each individual person in life that you cannot make it easy by saying everyone is evil. Everyone sins, but people can still try. And I think that's something that is overlooked frequently. Also, as you said, "there's nothing we can do to change our nature." From my perspective, that means the only option is to depend solely on God. Solely on God. Maybe this is true, maybe it's not, but a lot of religious people are just so quick so dismiss the importance of our life on this Earth. But there HAS to be more to it than that. Unless we're part of some sick, twisted game, there has to be purpose behind living on this rock for 80 years, more or less. Humanity in general looks horrible when the news is looked at, but when you go outside and interact with 99.99999% of people, very few of them are really 'evil'. Sure, they sin, but with all the millions...billions of things that are done with good intentions for the better, that just can't be overlooked. Yes, humanity is full of sin, but we are full of good. Forgive me if I get all sentimental here - but I do not understand why we need to believe in some higher being to consider ourselves perfect again. It frustrates me beyond belief to see the good works of 'normal' people around the world continually, every God damn day, dismissed with 'but we're all sinners.' We aren't perfect, we're human. We were born human, we were made human, and humans aren't perfect. Supposedly the moment a baby exists it is a sinner, so it's a sin to be alive? No. Is it a sin to exist? No. If there is a God, I trust he has more thought to him than that. To the next paragraph, alright, it is said Thy will be done. And we accept Jesus' sacrifice and that He did all the work. But how could we possibly call ourselves 'Holy Christians' or 'Good People' with that attitude. If someone believes in Jesus' sacrifice, that is their own business. But if they claim that Jesus sacrificed Himself for humanity and they in turn don't do anything worthwhile with their lives...what's the point of Christianity? If a bunch of people want to sit in a circle singing Kumbaya, content that Jesus took the hit, then that's their personal business. But if that's our purpose, if God expects everyone to be content with just that in this life, as I've said before, with all due respect He can stuff it. I'd also like to refer to a very basic argument that could be considered childish, but I think it has a point. It's often dismissed because "God is mysterious." But what's there to be mysterious about? God knew from the very beginning humanity would screw up, he knew exactly how it would all end up, yet he supposedly created humanity and expected perfection. So then some people thousands of years ago got self-conscious and put on clothes and experienced lust - and before we know it humanity is doomed to hell. So He sends his Son to take the hit, etc etc etc....we should be eternally grateful. Simply put - I expected better of an almighty God. There was no sacrifice - it was all known beforehand. It was nothing but a dumb plan. And please don't tell me it's just part of the 'mystery of God' and that it needs to be accepted, unless that's really the only answer out there. I also have to whole heartedly disagree with the basis of your last statements. Perhaps we all deserve to burn in hell, but to say 'mercy is never deserved' seems hypocritical. God expects us to be merciful NOT just to friends and allies for their sins against us, but even to fullblown enemies. It's the one concept that to me is the redeemer of this whole thing. They may not deserve it - but God expects us to provide mercy anyway because it is right. I will never follow a God with double standards. So, if all He can give is His hypocrisy, and expect us to cower in fear and awe, I would certainly prefer to reject His gift. Lol, hardly satanic! I did get some sleep, though... a lot of it. Certainly feel better, though I'm still pretty weak. :/ I'm going to take this section by section so I can try and hit everything. I don't believe everyone is evil in our understanding of the word. You can obviously be a good person without believing in any god. I believe that no one is holy. Good works and a good attitude are good things, but they don't make a person any less sinful. A good person will still lie on occasion. A good person will still have lustful thoughts. A good person will still feel hatred toward their enemies. I admire anyone who goes out of their way to be a good person, but it's still just the workings of an inferior being. They're still in the flesh. Only divine intervention can change a person's soul. Yup. That's all we have to do. Seems too easy, but can prove all too difficult. You're right. I'm going to quote Romans 6:1-4 (we are going to have a fantastic Bible study). I'm reading from the ESV, but for this particular passage, I prefer the KJV. In verse 2: Paul says " God forbid!" In essence, a lot of churches will teach that, since we are saved by faith, we have license to do whatever we want (no matter how sinful) because "God forgives us anyway." This is a sure-fire way to spot someone who has not really been born again. To quote James 2:14-17: I love this. In more modern terms, the author is saying "If someone in need asks you for clothes and food, don't just tell them 'Oh I'll pray for you,' freakin' do something about it!" If one is a Christian, it should be evident in their actions, words, and manner of living. Loving everyone regardless of who they are. Putting others' needs before their own. Praying for and loving their enemies. Helping their enemies in need, if need be. Forgiving others as Christ has forgiven us. And not for our own name, or our reputation, or our merit, but for the glorification of God. For the love that He has for everyone. That is our purpose - to love, as Christ first loved us. To forgive, as we are forgiven. To teach, guide, and lead others to the eternal security and mercy that we have in the Son. You can do these things without faith, yes, but the glory goes not to God. It goes to you, and you are still unrepentant for your sins. You are still living in self. Humans are sinners from birth. This means that they will sin. It doesn't mean that they already have simply by existing. The subsequent sin is a result of the flesh. I believe a lot of this could be answered by what I wrote above. We aren't holy or good because of anything we've done, but because of what Christ did for us and continues to do in us. The Christian walk, like I said before, constitutes following the will of the Father. If we are not in correspondence with the Spirit, we cannot know what God wants us to do. For example, I have felt called to enter the prison ministry. I didn't want to do that. I still don't particularly want to do it. I'd much rather spend my time on a stage or behind a work desk than in a jail. But if God says go, I will go. There is a reason I feel compelled to do this, and it would be foolish of me to refuse. If God wants to use me in this way, I pray HIS will be done. Someone who does not believe in God may never realize their full potential by doing as He would have them to do. They may miss out on their true purpose. God wants us to have faith. He also wants us to move with it. I also feel like this is used as a cop-out in certain situations. Most things can be explained by referring to the Scriptures. That said, why God created humanity is something that is left to debate. We do know, however, that He never expected perfection: He knew, as you said, that when given the choice, man would fall. That is precisely why He planned from the beginning to offer a sacrifice so that all may be saved. Genesis 3:15 says: This is the first promise of the Messiah! The ultimate seed of the woman would be Jesus Christ (through the Virgin Mary), and He would crush Satan ("And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly" ((Romans 16:20)) by the bruising of the heel (the cross). From the very first sin, Jesus's sacrifice was promised. The prior knowledge that a sacrifice would occur does not stop it from being sacrificial. If I know I'm going to donate some of my clothes next week, that doesn't mean I'm not going to be without those clothes. I will still have given them away. That doesn't mean someone will buy them. But I have offered them. I'm having trouble understanding this. Mercy, as a concept, relies on compassion. The definition of mercy is "compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm." Mercy and justice are two different things. For example, if someone is hungry and has no money, and they steal some bread from a store, they have committed a crime. It would be just and deserved to punish them for this crime. But if one has mercy, they will recognize that the person is hungry and the need for food drove them to commit the crime, and by compassion, they would choose not to punish them. So no, mercy in this sense cannot be deserved because it is an offering of compassion and leniency in spite of a wrongdoing. When a Christian sins and asks forgiveness, God has mercy and forgives in spite of the sin the person has committed. He would be right to punish them, as they've rebelled against Him, but out of love, He does not. Likewise, as Christians, we are to forgive those who have done wrong unto us.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 28, 2016 13:41:15 GMT -5
"I believe people who were never taught or had a chance to learn about Christ will go to Heaven, because they never had the chance in their life." Catholics call this "Baptism by Desire" -- that is, that if a person had known about baptism they would have wanted it. Tricky subject.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 28, 2016 13:41:44 GMT -5
also hi what have I missed
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 13:51:42 GMT -5
also hi what have I missed I wrote a book.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 28, 2016 14:00:32 GMT -5
O man I missed a lot wow
This is a cool discussion and I have nothing to add to it so I'll just lurk, don't mind me
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 14:04:35 GMT -5
Phew, nutty week. OK week though.
How's everyone been? And yeah, I missed like, a lot ^^'
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 14:24:48 GMT -5
@jester I'm gonna have to read that over a lot more times to soak it all in, but thanks for the responses. That was really nice of you. Also, I did have an opportunity to speak to a priest who worked with prisoners for awhile, and he had a lot of good stories. If you do go that route, I wish you the best.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 28, 2016 14:28:44 GMT -5
prison ministry is the bomb
also does anyone else here volunteer to help out the adults with the middle school youth group
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 14:30:23 GMT -5
@jester I'm gonna have to read that over a lot more times to soak it all in, but thanks for the responses. That was really nice of you. Also, I did have an opportunity to speak to a priest who worked with prisoners for awhile, and he had a lot of good stories. If you do go that route, I wish you the best. No problem. Thank you for the conversation, I always enjoy it. And yeah, I have a few friends who have done it. They've all given me different resources, and I'm supposed to meet with one of them to discuss it further. The hard part is deciding where to start. It makes me tired just thinking about it. I'd probably be working primarily in women's prisons... I have no clue what to expect, lol.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 14:31:32 GMT -5
prison ministry is the bomb
also does anyone else here volunteer to help out the adults with the middle school youth group I work with the elementary class. I'd love to help with a middle school group. What's it like?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 14:39:37 GMT -5
@jester I'm gonna have to read that over a lot more times to soak it all in, but thanks for the responses. That was really nice of you. Also, I did have an opportunity to speak to a priest who worked with prisoners for awhile, and he had a lot of good stories. If you do go that route, I wish you the best. No problem. Thank you for the conversation, I always enjoy it. And yeah, I have a few friends who have done it. They've all given me different resources, and I'm supposed to meet with one of them to discuss it further. The hard part is deciding where to start. It makes me tired just thinking about it. I'd probably be working primarily in women's prisons... I have no clue what to expect, lol. I mean, my philosophy is that most of life is going for it and seeing what happens, and things have a way of figuring themselves out. I have no clue what the process is like, but you just have to do it step by step.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 28, 2016 15:13:35 GMT -5
We all ok with the Bible study starting on September 1? I made a Chatzy room for it, link ( here).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 16:08:16 GMT -5
☂ Splintercat
Ooh, a bible study! Sounds awesome! I'm game and super late to this discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 16:10:15 GMT -5
Splintercat That's perfect. And the room works! I'm foolsy with a heart, haha. @battlingfear Good afternoon! Or morning. Or night, depending on where you are.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 16:16:24 GMT -5
☂ @jester It's evening for me. c: And good afternoon to you!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 16:24:10 GMT -5
Technically it's evening here, too. But I woke up at 1, so it feels like it's the afternoon. I hate sleeping the day away. :/
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 16:32:22 GMT -5
Life has me so busy right now. Hi everyone.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 16:33:43 GMT -5
☂ Ah, ok. I'm never able to sleep in that late, but I have slept 'till 11. It makes me feel like I've missed part of my life. :L
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 16:34:51 GMT -5
☂ @2dhalfheart Hiya! (:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 16:36:34 GMT -5
How are you?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 16:40:07 GMT -5
☂ @2dhalfheart Pretty good. A bit tired, but doing well. I'm currently grossing out at how nasty-looking What's Cool, Scooby-Doo? is. They totally ruined the original character's looks...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 16:42:40 GMT -5
That's usually how my initial reaction is too most things but now I get used to it so it's not so bad
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 28, 2016 16:59:23 GMT -5
Hola, 100 and Tomato!
They're making another Scooby Doo series already? Didn't they just finish the last one?
Edit: Apparently the last series has been over for 3 years now. Wow. Time flew.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 17:07:09 GMT -5
Three years? You are quite right. Time flies.
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 28, 2016 17:41:13 GMT -5
What time will bible study start? I have physical therapy starting at 4 and I usually don't get home till about 6.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 28, 2016 18:24:43 GMT -5
What time will bible study start? I have physical therapy starting at 4 and I usually don't get home till about 6. Good question, we probably need to standardize the discussion time. What time zone are you in?
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