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Post by Splintercat on Aug 27, 2016 21:55:26 GMT -5
SplintercatAt a time the chat isn't so busy, I'd love to discuss stuff. But only if you want to. Same with everyone else, of course. Also, I looked into chatzy and the free Virtual Room option is a pretty good one, it gives a lot of options and isn't too complicated. I personally think that'd be better than the forums for the specific chat dates, but people could always talk about it outside the chats on here as well. Sure, I'd love to! That sounds like a good option, thanks! I'll look into it.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 27, 2016 21:56:59 GMT -5
Yep. My pastor had a great sermon on this a few weeks ago. Most people have this idea of heaven as a purely spiritual place in the clouds where we float around playing harps all day, but the reality is that God's entire goal throughout the Bible has been to restore His creation to the state it was in when He created it. There's definitely some sort of "holding place" right now where spirits hang out waiting for Christ to go back to Earth, but the "final" heaven will be an entirely real and physical planet in a real and physical universe where we'll hang out in our real and physical bodies with our real and physical Savior. I sometimes get overwhelmed just thinking about it: a whole new planet, restored to perfection, with a city half the size of Africa that we'll all live in with God Himself. It's gonna be so awesome. So would you say it's like purgatory? Like some Catholics believe? But then again, it is Heaven and they are with God and Christ so it'd be different. My friend who is Catholic believes there's like a waiting line for your judgement and it's interesting to hear about. But, I feel we already have been waiting on Earth and God is out of our perception of time, so there would be no wait. Nah, just a temporary paradise- I think something like it is referred to as "Abraham's bosom" in the Bible. I never considered the idea that we'd just die and wake up in the future though, that actually makes a lot of sense. Very possible.
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 27, 2016 22:00:20 GMT -5
So would you say it's like purgatory? Like some Catholics believe? But then again, it is Heaven and they are with God and Christ so it'd be different. My friend who is Catholic believes there's like a waiting line for your judgement and it's interesting to hear about. But, I feel we already have been waiting on Earth and God is out of our perception of time, so there would be no wait. Nah, just a temporary paradise- I think something like it is referred to as "Abraham's bosom" in the Bible. I never considered the idea that we'd just die and wake up in the future though, that actually makes a lot of sense. Very possible. Hm okay. I'll have to look on that. Also, I didn't mean that xD I've never actually thought of that before actually. But what I meant was, once you die, you're right at the judgement table in front of God and you know then if you are going to Heaven or Hell. My friend believes there is a line that you must wait in to get to the judgement table.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2016 22:05:53 GMT -5
Tried to go to bed, checked the page, saw there was conversation to be had, I'm wide awake.
So everyone knows (if anyone here doesn't know): there are several different positions that Christians take concerning the Rapture (Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and Postmilennialism, to name a few) as the Bible leaves room for speculation. Much of Revelation is symbolic. There are good arguments for each side. I don't particularly hold to any one. "Christ is returning" is good enough for me.
And yes - there is much, much more to the Christian walk than simply believing. Believing is the first step.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 27, 2016 22:08:39 GMT -5
Welp, I am not assured by any beliefs, (I'm an atheist) so whenever reading about 'the end times', I have an existential crisis how fun Same, but I recon if Jesus is still kicking in the clouds, then he'd be a cool dude. As one of my favourite musicians put it: "I've never known Jesus, but I think we'd be friends / if he went to my school it was cool and we kicked it in chem" So if he does end the world and doom all us atheists to hell, I recon he'd save a spot for the nice ones The world's going to end for humans at some point anyway. Our destructive practices will wipe ourselves out and mother nature will continue on without us. Then the sun will explode and wipe out all life on earth. The universe doesn't care about our plights, so I say let's just enjoy ourselves and help others enjoy themselves while we're on this tiny little rock, or enjoy ourselves in the afterlife if that happens. On another note, I looked it up and the highest percentage that I saw of people who found that religion was not at all important to their lives in Australia was 70% in 2008, but I'm not sure how true that is. It makes sense since we're more closely aligned with secular Asia (but I've seen estimates from 20–50% so who knows). The government is still managing to block marriage equality though :,) And one of my favourite politicians said recently "we are a Christian country not an Islamic country, their culture shouldn't influence our laws" :,,,,)))) And they still pray in parliament?? And the Australian Christian Lobby is super powerful. Anyway sorry this turned into a separation of church & state rant but yeah Australia is technically secular. Bro Jesus is totally a cool dude. I mean His first miracle was bringing wine to a party. He's definitely a human, with all the personality that comes with it. On the church and state thing, it annoys me when people say that America is a Christian country. No, it's not, and it never was. Some people have even claimed that it's "the new Israel" and God entered into a covenant with it, and I'm like ??? Last time I checked there was no mention in my history textbook about God descending from the heavens to make a covenant with 'murica.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 27, 2016 22:09:16 GMT -5
Tried to go to bed, checked the page, saw there was conversation to be had, I'm wide awake. So everyone knows (if anyone here doesn't know): there are several different positions that Christians take concerning the Rapture (Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and Postmilennialism, to name a few) as the Bible leaves room for speculation. Much of Revelation is symbolic. There are good arguments for each side. I don't particularly hold to any one. "Christ is returning" is good enough for me. And yes - there is much, much more to the Christian walk than simply believing. Believing is the first step. Lel welcome to the all-nighter.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 27, 2016 22:10:33 GMT -5
Nah, just a temporary paradise- I think something like it is referred to as "Abraham's bosom" in the Bible. I never considered the idea that we'd just die and wake up in the future though, that actually makes a lot of sense. Very possible. Hm okay. I'll have to look on that. Also, I didn't mean that xD I've never actually thought of that before actually. But what I meant was, once you die, you're right at the judgement table in front of God and you know then if you are going to Heaven or Hell. My friend believes there is a line that you must wait in to get to the judgement table. Oh gotcha. Yeah no I agree with you on that, I haven't even heard the belief of a "waiting list" among the Catholics I know so idk
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Post by Lightningdawn on Aug 27, 2016 22:15:12 GMT -5
I know this doesn't contribute to the discussion, but I recently saw a sign that made me smile- B.I.B.L.E.- Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 27, 2016 22:15:31 GMT -5
I know this doesn't contribute to the discussion, but I recently saw a sign that made me smile- B.I.B.L.E.- Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth I like that
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2016 22:15:55 GMT -5
Nah, just a temporary paradise- I think something like it is referred to as "Abraham's bosom" in the Bible. I never considered the idea that we'd just die and wake up in the future though, that actually makes a lot of sense. Very possible. Hm okay. I'll have to look on that. Also, I didn't mean that xD I've never actually thought of that before actually. But what I meant was, once you die, you're right at the judgement table in front of God and you know then if you are going to Heaven or Hell. My friend believes there is a line that you must wait in to get to the judgement table. What Splintercat said. Jesus said to the penitent thief "today you will be with me in paradise." On the day of His resurrection, He told Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to Heaven. The word for "paradise" in Greek is παράδεισος -- the same Greek word used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew phrase גַן־עֵדֶן (gan eden) in the Tanakh. This temporary "paradise" was compared to the Garden of Eden. Pretty interesting.
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Post by Cloverfrost on Aug 27, 2016 22:21:52 GMT -5
Bro Jesus is totally a cool dude. I mean His first miracle was bringing wine to a party. He's definitely a human, with all the personality that comes with it. On the church and state thing, it annoys me when people say that America is a Christian country. No, it's not, and it never was. Some people have even claimed that it's "the new Israel" and God entered into a covenant with it, and I'm like ??? Last time I checked there was no mention in my history textbook about God descending from the heavens to make a covenant with 'murica. Everyone wants Jesus at their party. He has the best party tricks ever. Huh. Until I looked it up I actually thought that Christianity was the official religion of the US. The more you know. Apparently the founding fathers were a mixed bag of mainly denominational Christians and non-denominational theists, as well as atheists. I've heard some stuff that points to some religious US citizens talking about the founding fathers with such reverence that they could almost be saints, but some of them weren't even religious. Yeah, the stuff about America being the chosen land or whatever confuses me. I mean a large percentage is Christian and God will love you as much as anyone else but why would America be singled out? It doesn't even make any sense.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2016 22:25:33 GMT -5
Bro Jesus is totally a cool dude. I mean His first miracle was bringing wine to a party. He's definitely a human, with all the personality that comes with it. On the church and state thing, it annoys me when people say that America is a Christian country. No, it's not, and it never was. Some people have even claimed that it's "the new Israel" and God entered into a covenant with it, and I'm like ??? Last time I checked there was no mention in my history textbook about God descending from the heavens to make a covenant with 'murica. Everyone wants Jesus at their party. He has the best party tricks ever. Huh. Until I looked it up I actually thought that Christianity was the official religion of the US. The more you know. Apparently the founding fathers were a mixed bag of mainly denominational Christians and non-denominational theists, as well as atheists. I've heard some stuff that points to some religious US citizens talking about the founding fathers with such reverence that they could almost be saints, but some of them weren't even religious. Yeah, the stuff about America being the chosen land or whatever confuses me. I mean a large percentage is Christian and God will love you as much as anyone else but why would America be singled out? It doesn't even make any sense. " America being the chosen land." LOL! Nah, America is not a "Christian nation." Never has been. "When Jesus returns, he will abolish the American constitution... and all of our political posturing and our talk of a "Christian nation" will have been made absolutely meaningless. There is only one Christian nation, and it is called the Kingdom of God." /mini-rant
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 27, 2016 22:26:23 GMT -5
Hm okay. I'll have to look on that. Also, I didn't mean that xD I've never actually thought of that before actually. But what I meant was, once you die, you're right at the judgement table in front of God and you know then if you are going to Heaven or Hell. My friend believes there is a line that you must wait in to get to the judgement table. What Splintercat said. Jesus said to the penitent thief "today you will be with me in paradise." On the day of His resurrection, He told Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to Heaven. The word for "paradise" in Greek is παράδεισος -- the same Greek word used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew phrase גַן־עֵדֶן (gan eden) in the Tanakh. This temporary "paradise" was compared to the Garden of Eden. Pretty interesting. Yeah, that's why it confused me so. I've never really learned much of what Catholics believe so I thought this was a common thing. But I guess not.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2016 22:27:05 GMT -5
Tried to go to bed, checked the page, saw there was conversation to be had, I'm wide awake. So everyone knows (if anyone here doesn't know): there are several different positions that Christians take concerning the Rapture (Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and Postmilennialism, to name a few) as the Bible leaves room for speculation. Much of Revelation is symbolic. There are good arguments for each side. I don't particularly hold to any one. "Christ is returning" is good enough for me. And yes - there is much, much more to the Christian walk than simply believing. Believing is the first step. Sleep is important, remember that. Do you think much of the entire Bible is symbolic? Also, what do you consider the Christian walk to be? I've never seen statistics on it, but I think it's a a truthful statement to say that most religious people follow the religion they are born into. They are born, raised, and taught that belief, while simultaneously being told (most of the time) that other religions unlike theirs is wrong. Christian laws are fundamental truths that people should follow because they're right. Our moral sense tells us that. But it wouldn't be right to say that many Islamists, varying branches of Christianity (yet another interesting topic), Buddhists, Jews, and the many others that exist don't follow those beliefs. They worship different Gods but many still believe in peace, hope, and love. Extra Note: I used to attend a church when I was a lot younger. They believed in the power of 'miracles' and 'Godly intervening'. What starting pushing me away, along with some other personal bs, was that these 'miracles' seemed to be very selective. Some guy is converted from 'x' to Christianity, someone is saved from certain death and believes it was God's intervening, you've probably heard the stories. But what about the rest of the world? What about the millions of people who don't get the lottery ticket for a miracle? What if they live long, happy lives, believing the Christian God is wrong and nonexistent, and eventually die believing just that. Is that really a one-way ticket to hell? Those questions are actual questions, just so you know.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2016 22:27:09 GMT -5
Just to chime in as a member of the LDS church we sort of do have beliefs that America was chosen as a new/another Israel and that Jesus did ascend and make a covenant with the people...
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Post by Lightningdawn on Aug 27, 2016 22:28:12 GMT -5
Just to chime in as a member of the LDS church we sort of do have beliefs that America was chosen as a new/another Israel and that Jesus did ascend and make a covenant with the people... Same with RLDS
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Post by Cloverfrost on Aug 27, 2016 22:29:51 GMT -5
" America being the chosen land." LOL! Nah, America is not a "Christian nation." Never has been. "When Jesus returns, he will abolish the American constitution... and all of our political posturing and our talk of a "Christian nation" will have been made absolutely meaningless. There is only one Christian nation, and it is called the Kingdom of God." /mini-rant Exactly.
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 27, 2016 22:30:37 GMT -5
Everyone wants Jesus at their party. He has the best party tricks ever. Huh. Until I looked it up I actually thought that Christianity was the official religion of the US. The more you know. Apparently the founding fathers were a mixed bag of mainly denominational Christians and non-denominational theists, as well as atheists. I've heard some stuff that points to some religious US citizens talking about the founding fathers with such reverence that they could almost be saints, but some of them weren't even religious. Yeah, the stuff about America being the chosen land or whatever confuses me. I mean a large percentage is Christian and God will love you as much as anyone else but why would America be singled out? It doesn't even make any sense. " America being the chosen land." LOL! Nah, America is not a "Christian nation." Never has been. "When Jesus returns, he will abolish the American constitution... and all of our political posturing and our talk of a "Christian nation" will have been made absolutely meaningless. There is only one Christian nation, and it is called the Kingdom of God." /mini-rant Shows how ignorant I am, I thought Christianity was the official religion. And what's the talk about being the chosen land? xD That's supposed to be Israel.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 27, 2016 22:34:14 GMT -5
Bro Jesus is totally a cool dude. I mean His first miracle was bringing wine to a party. He's definitely a human, with all the personality that comes with it. On the church and state thing, it annoys me when people say that America is a Christian country. No, it's not, and it never was. Some people have even claimed that it's "the new Israel" and God entered into a covenant with it, and I'm like ??? Last time I checked there was no mention in my history textbook about God descending from the heavens to make a covenant with 'murica. Everyone wants Jesus at their party. He has the best party tricks ever. Huh. Until I looked it up I actually thought that Christianity was the official religion of the US. The more you know. Apparently the founding fathers were a mixed bag of mainly denominational Christians and non-denominational theists, as well as atheists. I've heard some stuff that points to some religious US citizens talking about the founding fathers with such reverence that they could almost be saints, but some of them weren't even religious. Yeah, the stuff about America being the chosen land or whatever confuses me. I mean a large percentage is Christian and God will love you as much as anyone else but why would America be singled out? It doesn't even make any sense. Yeah, @jester is right. I just don't get it. Someone even wrote a book pointing to things like 9/11 as a sign of God's coming judgement on America, but the entire premise rested on the idea that America is in the same covenental relationship with God as Israel was. Like what no it's not. This is probably why some people think that Christians are white supremacists.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 27, 2016 22:35:07 GMT -5
" America being the chosen land." LOL! Nah, America is not a "Christian nation." Never has been. "When Jesus returns, he will abolish the American constitution... and all of our political posturing and our talk of a "Christian nation" will have been made absolutely meaningless. There is only one Christian nation, and it is called the Kingdom of God." /mini-rant Shows how ignorant I am, I thought Christianity was the official religion. And what's the talk about being the chosen land? xD That's supposed to be Israel. Lol I don't know. People can be super 'muricacentric
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 27, 2016 22:36:43 GMT -5
Just to chime in as a member of the LDS church we sort of do have beliefs that America was chosen as a new/another Israel and that Jesus did ascend and make a covenant with the people... Well, my question is, why would God change his original plan? He made a promise to Abraham and God does not break his promise. And to ascend that means Jesus had to descend already. To make another covenant, he would have to descend for the 2nd time, and the second he descends is the rapture.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 27, 2016 22:38:10 GMT -5
Just to chime in as a member of the LDS church we sort of do have beliefs that America was chosen as a new/another Israel and that Jesus did ascend and make a covenant with the people... Oh yeah, I forgot that a lot of LDS beliefs involve America. I didn't know it involved the whole country though, I thought it just involved parts of Utah and Missouri and a few orher places. From a standpoint that considers only the Bible and not the Book of Mormon/D&C, though, the idea of America being a new chosen nation doesn't make sense.
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 27, 2016 22:39:44 GMT -5
Just to chime in as a member of the LDS church we sort of do have beliefs that America was chosen as a new/another Israel and that Jesus did ascend and make a covenant with the people... Well, my question is, why would God change his original plan? He made a promise to Abraham and God does not break his promise. And to ascend that means Jesus had to descend already. To make another covenant, he would have to descend for the 2nd time, and the second he descends is the rapture. The LDS church believes that after Jesus ascended, He came back down in North America to minister to the people there before ascending into heaven again to sit at the right hand of the Father until the Second Coming.
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 27, 2016 22:47:31 GMT -5
Well, my question is, why would God change his original plan? He made a promise to Abraham and God does not break his promise. And to ascend that means Jesus had to descend already. To make another covenant, he would have to descend for the 2nd time, and the second he descends is the rapture. The LDS church believes that after Jesus ascended, He came back down in North America to minister to the people there before ascending into heaven again to sit at the right hand of the Father until the Second Coming. But wouldn't that mean the second coming already came?
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Post by Splintercat on Aug 27, 2016 22:51:34 GMT -5
The LDS church believes that after Jesus ascended, He came back down in North America to minister to the people there before ascending into heaven again to sit at the right hand of the Father until the Second Coming. But wouldn't that mean the second coming already came? Idk, you'll have to ask one of the LDS chatters. I'd assume not necessarily, because He wouldn't have actually gone to heaven within the timespan between His ascension and descension (yeah that's a word). He would've just sort of transported Himself from the Middle East to North America.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2016 22:51:42 GMT -5
Tried to go to bed, checked the page, saw there was conversation to be had, I'm wide awake. So everyone knows (if anyone here doesn't know): there are several different positions that Christians take concerning the Rapture (Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and Postmilennialism, to name a few) as the Bible leaves room for speculation. Much of Revelation is symbolic. There are good arguments for each side. I don't particularly hold to any one. "Christ is returning" is good enough for me. And yes - there is much, much more to the Christian walk than simply believing. Believing is the first step. Sleep is important, remember that. Do you think much of the entire Bible is symbolic? Also, what do you consider the Christian walk to be? I've never seen statistics on it, but I think it's a a truthful statement to say that most religious people follow the religion they are born into. They are born, raised, and taught that belief, while simultaneously being told (most of the time) that other religions unlike theirs is wrong. Christian laws are fundamental truths that people should follow because they're right. Our moral sense tells us that. But it wouldn't be right to say that many Islamists, varying branches of Christianity (yet another interesting topic), Buddhists, Jews, and the many others that exist don't follow those beliefs. They worship different Gods but many still believe in peace, hope, and love. Extra Note: I used to attend a church when I was a lot younger. They believed in the power of 'miracles' and 'Godly intervening'. What starting pushing me away, along with some other personal bs, was that these 'miracles' seemed to be very selective. Some guy is converted from 'x' to Christianity, someone is saved from certain death and believes it was God's intervening, you've probably heard the stories. But what about the rest of the world? What about the millions of people who don't get the lottery ticket for a miracle? What if they live long, happy lives, believing the Christian God is wrong and nonexistent, and eventually die believing just that. Is that really a one-way ticket to hell? Those questions are actual questions, just so you know. Hehe, yeah. I had to take my pills. Otherwise I'll be up till 5 a.m. again. Jesus spoke in parables very often, and He used a lot of common imagery and symbolism to make His points known to the people; as for the Bible being symbolic... eh, sometimes. There were a lot of different tones used throughout the books, and you have to look at the context and the wording to see if something is figurative or literal. Some Christians believe the Creation account and Noah's Ark to be metaphorical rather than literal (though, of course, the initial message is still there and still stands). And I think there's good arguments for that, too -- the Ark account, for example, was used as a parallel to the coming of Christ, so, in that sense, it is definitely symbolic. The Christian walk is summarized quite nicely by Jesus Himself in Matthew 16:24: "If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me." The language here is great. It is the absolute denial of self, the putting to death (taking up the cross) of our own selfish desires, and choosing to follow Christ and seek out His will. It is, literally, to be born again. And oh, of course. Most people don't question. I didn't when I was younger, but around my early teenage years I lost a lot of my faith. After careful study of the Word, its historical and cultural contexts, and the revelation of the Holy Spirit that followed, I became very confident in my faith and have been ever since. ^.^ It's funny you should mention the moral law thing. Romans 2:15 says this: Pretty much everyone would agree that murder is wrong. This is a well-supported, yet simply subjective moral belief if no God exists. The verse above points out that, even as non-Jews did not abide by the Law, obeyed parts of it because they believed it to be correct, and that the Law was "written on their hearts" - our consciences tell us murder is wrong. Etc. As for the miracles thing... I would be careful with my words. I believe miracles do happen (some Christians believe they ended with the Apostles), but I wouldn't say a miracle has occurred every time someone overcomes an illness. Do I believe God answers our prayers? Yes... but sometimes the answer is no. One-way ticket to Hell? That's every person on Earth, as we have all sinned. Christianity's essential belief is that we are saved by justification in Jesus Christ alone. This is why "all other religions are wrong"... if they're not teaching Jesus is the way, we don't believe it. Christians aren't better than or morally superior to unbelievers; we've simply had our tickets revoked.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2016 23:30:45 GMT -5
@jester
Hope the pills help!
I agree that the Bible was designed to be literal at some points and metaphorical in others, but I get the feeling that isn't made clear in a lot of churches.
I mean this respectfully, but that definition is very vague and loose to interpretation, which may or may not be why you chose it. It says that to walk the Christian path, we must "follow Him." To follow him, we have to believe in His existence, believe He is our Savior, and believe He is God.
My argument is that one can follow in His footsteps without believing in Him, or that He is God.
And what I mean by footsteps is people can do good. They can reach for that height of holiness, even if it's impossible to reach.
One argument against this is "You can't pickily choose what you believe and disbelieve in bit by bit." But that can't be right. Anti-religious people can hold strong in every single Christ belief except for the belief in God itself.
For the Romans verse, I'll be honest, I had to look up what being a law onto yourself even means. Here's the basic definition:
"If somebody's a law unto themselves, they do what they believe is right regardless of what is generally accepted as correct."
Is this not what everyone should do? Any kind of rule can be interpreted differently. "Do not murder" is an obvious truth, but "Do not kill" is much more in the dark. Believers and non-believers alike do what they think is right. They can read and abide by the rules however much they want - in the end it's what you think is right.
I agree with your statement on miracles.
Your entire paragraph there does sum up the idea behind Jesus saving us all, and how Christianity claims to be right. But my underlying statement is: If there are two people who live their lives to the best of their ability and by what they believe is right, as according to the natural law, neither of them are more or less deserving of salvation - regardless of their belief.
I've avoided making statements like this because I feel they can be taken offensively, but I'll take a shot at it: If God damns someone to hell for not believing in Him, but they lived their life in his footsteps (as I defined above), then He is an egotistical God whose statements of "love and forgiveness" are just not true.
Again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but that's what I believe. I do my best to be open and listen to what everyone says, and nothing I've ever heard has convinced me otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 0:11:38 GMT -5
@jester Hope the pills help! I agree that the Bible was designed to be literal at some points and metaphorical in others, but I get the feeling that isn't made clear in a lot of churches. I mean this respectfully, but that definition is very vague and loose to interpretation, which may or may not be why you chose it. It says that to walk the Christian path, we must "follow Him." To follow him, we have to believe in His existence, believe He is our Savior, and believe He is God. My argument is that one can follow in His footsteps without believing in Him, or that He is God. And what I mean by footsteps is people can do good. They can reach for that height of holiness, even if it's impossible to reach. One argument against this is "You can't pickily choose what you believe and disbelieve in bit by bit." But that can't be right. Anti-religious people can hold strong in every single Christ belief except for the belief in God itself. For the Romans verse, I'll be honest, I had to look up what being a law onto yourself even means. Here's the basic definition: "If somebody's a law unto themselves, they do what they believe is right regardless of what is generally accepted as correct." Is this not what everyone does? Any kind of rule can be interpreted differently. "Do not murder" is an obvious truth, but "Do not kill" is much more in the dark. Believers and non-believers alike do what they think is right. They can read and abide by the rules however much they want - in the end it's what you think is right. I agree with your statement on miracles. Your entire paragraph there does sum up the idea behind Jesus saving us all, and how Christianity claims to be right. But my underlying statement is: If there are two people who live their lives to the best of their ability and by what they believe is right, as according to the natural law, neither of them are more or less deserving of salvation - regardless of their belief. I've avoided making statements like this because I feel they can be taken offensively, but I'll take a shot at it: If God damns someone to hell for not believing in Him, but they lived their life in his footsteps (as I defined above), then He is an egotistical God whose statements of "love and forgiveness" are just not true. Again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but that's what I believe. I do my best to be open and listen to what everyone says, and nothing I've ever heard has convinced me otherwise. Oh, the pills are working. I'm just hurting all over, I'm so sick, ugh. There is SO much here to address, and I will elaborate later if I can. But I think the primary point to make is that, in Christianity, we believe that no one is 'good', so to speak. You can do good things, and you can be a good person morally, but good works and good morals don't save a person because our righteousness is null, due to our fallen state (Isaiah 64:6). Put most simply... humans are not holy and can never be. God is. Sin cannot abide with God, but there's nothing we can do to change our nature. That's why Jesus came. He suffered in our place - Jesus's sacrifice was not limited to the cross. He endured the full wrath of God, and whoever believes in Him and chooses to follow Him is accounted for through the Son. You cannot serve two masters (Matthew 6:24), and if you aren't living for Christ, you're living in the world. Christianity is, essentially, the realization that we cannot be perfect no matter how hard we try, but through belief in Christ and the keeping of His commandments, we are made perfect (born again). That doesn't mean Christians don't sin anymore - we do - but when we do, we have an Advocate with the Father. We repent and we say 'not mine, but Thy will be done.' Thus, though the description sounds vague, it is literally as it sounds. Die to self, follow Him. Other religions say "do this, do that, do this and you'll be good." Jesus says "It is finished." Jesus did all the work. All we have to do is accept the free gift of salvation that comes by faith and adherence to the will of God. If you don't believe in God, or Jesus' sacrifice, you cannot be in correspondence with Him. If you deny Him, you deny the sacrifice... thus rendering you guilty. If you're not saying, "God, lead me, and I will follow," you're saying, "Well, I'll do what I want to do, and maybe it'll be good enough." We can only do what we THINK is right... God knows what IS right. No one deserves salvation. Mercy is never deserved. It is a gift. It can be rejected.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2016 3:56:45 GMT -5
Hang in there man, sleep takes priority over responding to satanic posts.
Elaboration is always appreciated.
I understand the concept that no one, literally not a single person, is without sin. I agree completely. However, despite this, I think there's so much more to each individual person in life that you cannot make it easy by saying everyone is evil. Everyone sins, but people can still try. And I think that's something that is overlooked frequently.
Also, as you said, "there's nothing we can do to change our nature." From my perspective, that means the only option is to depend solely on God. Solely on God.
Maybe this is true, maybe it's not, but a lot of religious people are just so quick so dismiss the importance of our life on this Earth. But there HAS to be more to it than that. Unless we're part of some sick, twisted game, there has to be purpose behind living on this rock for 80 years, more or less. Humanity in general looks horrible when the news is looked at, but when you go outside and interact with 99.99999% of people, very few of them are really 'evil'. Sure, they sin, but with all the millions...billions of things that are done with good intentions for the better, that just can't be overlooked. Yes, humanity is full of sin, but we are full of good.
Forgive me if I get all sentimental here - but I do not understand why we need to believe in some higher being to consider ourselves perfect again. It frustrates me beyond belief to see the good works of 'normal' people around the world continually, every God damn day, dismissed with 'but we're all sinners.' We aren't perfect, we're human. We were born human, we were made human, and humans aren't perfect. Supposedly the moment a baby exists it is a sinner, so it's a sin to be alive? No. Is it a sin to exist? No. If there is a God, I trust he has more thought to him than that.
To the next paragraph, alright, it is said Thy will be done. And we accept Jesus' sacrifice and that He did all the work. But how could we possibly call ourselves 'Holy Christians' or 'Good People' with that attitude. If someone believes in Jesus' sacrifice, that is their own business. But if they claim that Jesus sacrificed Himself for humanity and they in turn don't do anything worthwhile with their lives...what's the point of Christianity?
If a bunch of people want to sit in a circle singing Kumbaya, content that Jesus took the hit, then that's their personal business. But if that's our purpose, if God expects everyone to be content with just that in this life, as I've said before, with all due respect He can stuff it.
I'd also like to refer to a very basic argument that could be considered childish, but I think it has a point. It's often dismissed because "God is mysterious." But what's there to be mysterious about? God knew from the very beginning humanity would screw up, he knew exactly how it would all end up, yet he supposedly created humanity and expected perfection. So then some people thousands of years ago got self-conscious and put on clothes and experienced lust - and before we know it humanity is doomed to hell. So He sends his Son to take the hit, etc etc etc....we should be eternally grateful. Simply put - I expected better of an almighty God. There was no sacrifice - it was all known beforehand. It was nothing but a dumb plan. And please don't tell me it's just part of the 'mystery of God' and that it needs to be accepted, unless that's really the only answer out there.
I also have to whole heartedly disagree with the basis of your last statements. Perhaps we all deserve to burn in hell, but to say 'mercy is never deserved' seems hypocritical. God expects us to be merciful NOT just to friends and allies for their sins against us, but even to fullblown enemies. It's the one concept that to me is the redeemer of this whole thing. They may not deserve it - but God expects us to provide mercy anyway because it is right. I will never follow a God with double standards.
So, if all He can give is His hypocrisy, and expect us to cower in fear and awe, I would certainly prefer to reject His gift.
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Post by Dreamers Delight on Aug 28, 2016 8:57:26 GMT -5
I think Tree would be better to explain most of your points as Im kind of shown to put mine out there and have them not explained correctly, but I'd like to point out about a baby is born into sin. I do not believe that is necessarily true. If a child lies and does not know what lying is, is that their fault? No. It's up to those who raised the child to allow the child to understand. It is then when the child knows that lying is bad, that it is truly wrong. I believe people who were never taught or had a chance to learn about Christ will go to Heaven, because they never had the chance in their life. Just as a child were to never know that lying was bad. It is truly only bad when the child knows.
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