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Post by Mistybreeze on Jan 10, 2018 17:54:00 GMT -5
I sort of alluded to this in my last thread on Needletail. Part of my theory on why she was in purgatory and not the DF was that she could potentially become a bigger threat later on if she did get sent there.
While typing that, another thought occurred to me. Is that why Ashfur went to StarClan and not the DF? By the time of his death, he had thoroughly lost his mind. There was no redeeming him. So that just left the DF or StarClan. What happened the last time they sent a crazy cat to the DF? We got an all out war between the DF and the Clans. You guessed it, I am referring to Mapleshade. I think StarClan learned their lesson with sending emotionally unstable cats to the DF.
Now, I'm not saying Ashfur would become a DF leader. But imagine what would happen during the DF battle if he was present? He would murder Squirrelflight, Leafpool's kits, anyone pretty much anyone else who got in his way. He would be a major threat to ThunderClan. His grief would have been amplified while in the DF.
If he was in StarClan, however, he would have time to reflect on his actions. Even if he didn't repeat, he would at least have a chance to calm down. This would essentially neutralize him as a threat when the final battle came. And that is why I think he went to StarClan. Sending him to the DF would have only created another dangerous enemy the Clans would have to face later on. But if he went to StarClan, he would not longer be a threat.
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Post by Kibui on Jan 10, 2018 18:05:58 GMT -5
Ah I'll write this down in my brain as another possibility thanks .D (even though I don't think that StarClan decides or is even able to decide if cats can join them or not)
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Post by Mistybreeze on Jan 10, 2018 18:15:16 GMT -5
The idea of the Dark Forest is so dang bad in the first place. It's essentially just the same as StarClan but darker. Why aren't cats punished there if it's so bad? It's supposed to be kitty hell but instead it's just an edgy frat house of more pointless antagonists. It just defeats the purpose of villains because they're supposed to have repercussions for their actions. In any case Ashfur is a psychopath who deserves nothing good and I hope Firestar found him in StarClan and beat the pulp out of him. Awhile ago Kate or Vicky said that the DF basically makes cats go insane. They are punished psychologically for what they did in life. In the case of Ashfur, it would be akin to incarcerating a mentally ill individual. It will only make that person worse. That's the point I was trying to make.
And with the coming battle, Ashfur would become even more dangerous. At least in StarClan, he can't do anything else to harm Squirrelflight.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 10, 2018 18:36:20 GMT -5
Problem. Ashfur was in Starclan before Mapleshade started her war, so there's no way that Starclan would have learnt from a mistake. Furthermore, by this logic, you might as well not have any cats in the Dark Forest since it's hardly as if Mapleshade was the only one pulling stunts in there nor even really that much of a leader to the DF cats(not one of them cared when she fled, which speaks poorly to how much they actually cared).
Even if Starclan did learn from Mapleshade before she did anything beyond be a voice in cats' ears, then Thistleclaw certainly should not have ended up in the Dark Forest either since he's very similar to Ashfur. If anything, he's less monstrous than Ashfur who actively sought to murder his leader with the help of Hawkfrost and wanting the three to burn to death to make Squirrelflight suffer.
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Post by Basement Cat on Jan 10, 2018 18:36:41 GMT -5
That isn't the reason they gave, though. The reasons was that 'he loved too much.' Not that he was better off in StarClan where he could be ally. He never participated in the battle to help StarClan in TLH anyways.
It boils down to that Ashfur just was too in love with Squirrelflight to be evil enough to be in the DF. This gets confusing when you see Darkstripe loved Tigerstar too much. Tigerstar loved power too much. Mapleshade only loved her kits so much. And so forth. It sets a double standard that makes Ashfur seem like he got away scott free with his actions in life.
This theory, while interesting is based off of 'maybes'. There's a lot to speculate on that just may or may not happen.
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Post by gonxkillua on Jan 10, 2018 19:23:44 GMT -5
Author bias. Ashfur is one Vicky's favourite character and she related to him so she sent him to Starclan. She later admitted that he dosent belong there but it's too late now to change it.
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Post by Rainstorm1026 on Jan 11, 2018 18:25:24 GMT -5
Author bias. Ashfur is one Vicky's favourite character and she related to him so she sent him to Starclan. She later admitted that he dosent belong there but it's too late now to change it. Why make him do what he did in the first place? Did the editors make her or something?
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Jan 11, 2018 18:34:57 GMT -5
Like others have said, it's author bias. There really shouldn't be any reason why Ashfur should be in StarClan, regardless of his mental health.
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Jan 11, 2018 18:37:47 GMT -5
The idea of the Dark Forest is so dang bad in the first place. It's essentially just the same as StarClan but darker. Why aren't cats punished there if it's so bad? It's supposed to be kitty hell but instead it's just an edgy frat house of more pointless antagonists. It just defeats the purpose of villains because they're supposed to have repercussions for their actions. In any case Ashfur is a psychopath who deserves nothing good and I hope Firestar found him in StarClan and beat the pulp out of him. Awhile ago Kate or Vicky said that the DF basically makes cats go insane. They are punished psychologically for what they did in life. I'm genuinely curious, but where was this confirmed? Can you provide a link to the source?
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Jan 11, 2018 18:40:51 GMT -5
Author bias. Ashfur is one Vicky's favourite character and she related to him so she sent him to Starclan.ย She later admitted that he dosent belong there but it's too late now to change it. Why make him do what he did in the first place? Did the editors make her or something? Vicky was one of the editors. There really isn't any actual reason why Ashfur was chosen specifically, they just wanted a random cat to cause drama for Squirrelflight. It just so happened to be Ashfur. They could've easily gone with someone like Rainwhisker, and it still would've been mostly the same.
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Post by Rainstorm1026 on Jan 11, 2018 20:14:54 GMT -5
Why make him do what he did in the first place? Did the editors make her or something? Vicky was one of the editors. There really isn't any actual reason why Ashfur was chosen specifically, they just wanted a random cat to cause drama for Squirrelflight. It just so happened to be Ashfur. They could've easily gone with someone like Rainwhisker, and it still would've been mostly the same. I'm glad they didn't go with Rainwhisker.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2018 7:12:09 GMT -5
My personal theory is that Ashfur DID go to the DF. Then he found his way out again.
There's some cats in the series: Ashfur, Rainflower, Raggedstar: that did really bad things but in my opinion weren't necessarily bad cats. I think there was still some good left in them.
These cats are sent to the DF when they die. However, if they follow the 'goodness of their heart' or whatever, they can eventually find their way out and find SC. For me, cats like Darkstripe and Mapleshade also fit this bill: Darkstripe because he was really just blinded by loyalty, and Mapleshade because she wasn't mentally well at the time of her murders and haunted by the voices of her dead kits. However, they chose to instead venture further into the DF, essentially securing their places as bad cats who did not want to change their ways.
This is the only way I can think of as to why cats like Ashfur, Rainflower and Raggedstar get into SC despite doing bad things.
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Lesbian
ratman
23/12/03โ19/09/21 (thank you madie)
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Post by ratman on Jan 12, 2018 8:08:02 GMT -5
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Post by Rainstorm1026 on Jan 13, 2018 14:33:26 GMT -5
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Post by Havenlake on Jan 13, 2018 19:20:47 GMT -5
Hoo boy, I am full on neutral on this entire subject and the character related to it(Ashfur) but.. who's to say Starclan was going to have Ashfur be in purgatory first, but then 'he somehow found his way' into Starclan? The time between his death(Long Shadows) and the time that the Dark Forest starts upping the ante(Roughly Fourth Apprentice) could've been long enough for him to somehow reconsider his actions in life post-mortem? I could just be throwing out random ideas but I will admit I did like this one MAP's idea of the whole thing(Behind Blue Eyes).
But then again we could've just had an 'all-knowing' twoleg just snatch Ashfur's ghost, plopped him in Starclan and told the starcats 'He's staying here whether you like it or not!' and it's been like that since? -shot- Okay pardon the joke there.
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Post by mothsnap on Jan 14, 2018 15:32:16 GMT -5
The idea of the Dark Forest is so dang bad in the first place. It's essentially just the same as StarClan but darker. Why aren't cats punished there if it's so bad? It's supposed to be kitty hell but instead it's just an edgy frat house of more pointless antagonists. It just defeats the purpose of villains because they're supposed to have repercussions for their actions. In any case Ashfur is a psychopath who deserves nothing good and I hope Firestar found him in StarClan and beat the pulp out of him. Because the erins didn't think it though. but my story for an in story reason is that all the cats there want to be there. Ashfur never rejected StarClan really, but Mapleshade did. Mapleshade hated StarClan and everything, but Ashfur just hated Squirrelflight. Thistleclaw didn't do anything bad (disregarding Spottedleaf's Heart), he was just sort of mean but he wanted to be in the dark forest so to the dark forest he went. That also explains why it isn't a terrible place, because the cat's aren't there to be tortured, they're there to be away from the StarClan cats they hate
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Post by mothsnap on Jan 14, 2018 15:48:01 GMT -5
Because the erins didn't think it though. but my story for an in story reason is that all the cats there want to be there. Ashfur never rejected StarClan really, but Mapleshade did. Mapleshade hated StarClan and everything, but Ashfur just hated Squirrelflight. Thistleclaw didn't do anything bad (disregarding Spottedleaf's Heart), he was just sort of mean but he wanted to be in the dark forest so to the dark forest he went. That also explains why it isn't a terrible place, because the cat's aren't there to be tortured, they're there to be away from the StarClan cats they hate That doesn't make sense. Cats get sent to the DF, they don't choose to go there. There's obvious proof of this everywhere. Snowfur is in StarClan, Thistleclaw loved her. If he wanted to be with her he'd just have chosen to be in StarClan. Similarly, Mapleshade's kits are in StarClan, the only cats she ever cared about. We can be pretty sure Squirrelflight will end up in StarClan, but Ashfur is there for no reason and I'm pretty sure if he could choose to be away from or in close proximity to Squirrelflight he'd choose the former. Every cat in the Dark Forest is evil and this is no coincidence- if it was a matter of choosing I'm sure some cats that would have gone to StarClan but had kin in the Dark Forest would be there with them but there aren't. If cats could just choose where they wanted to go, I'm sure ALL of the Dark Forest would be in StarClan right now with the cats they cared about in the first place. But they aren't, because the DF is somewhere you're sent as a punishment for evil deeds and crimes, not somewhere you can simply choose to go. I don't remember that being said anywhere in the books. Thistleclaw didn't love snowfur by the end. i crookedstar's promise he was talking about how whitepaw and snowfur were idiots. mapleshade was probably also past caring, her hate for starclan and her desire for revenge is what sent her to the dark forest. I didn't mean to say that when she died she made a conscious decision to go there, but because she hated starclan she didn't go. make sense? thistleclaw also hated starclan. ashfur didn't
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Post by mothsnap on Jan 14, 2018 16:14:00 GMT -5
I don't remember that being said anywhere in the books. Thistleclaw didn't love snowfur by the end. i crookedstar's promise he was talking about how whitepaw and snowfur were idiots. mapleshade was probably also past caring, her hate for starclan and her desire for revenge is what sent her to the dark forest. I didn't mean to say that when she died she made a conscious decision to go there, but because she hated starclan she didn't go. make sense? thistleclaw also hated starclan. ashfur didn't Thistleclaw might've hated Snowfur by the time he made it into the DF and had been there for a while, not while he was alive. But I'm pretty sure all my other points still stand. If it weren't for Mapleshade's love for her kits, she wouldn't have seeked revenge in the first place. It makes no sense for her to willingly leave them to be in the DF. DF is not somewhere you can choose to go, canonically. It's heavily implied and sometimes outright stated that cats are banished there for being evil. Otherwise we'd see good cats in the DF and evil cats in StarClan. I'd rather start with that point in mind than come up with what-if situations to justify bad writing. Still makes perfect sense to me, but I agree with the bad writing part
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Jan 14, 2018 16:18:51 GMT -5
Adding to what Feather said, you also have to consider Darkstripe. He was trying to find StarClan since he died until he encountered Tigerstar again in Sunset. Although, I suppose you could argue that it might also depend on a cat's subconscious, and Darkstripe just wanted to be with wherever Tigerstar was. It just so happened that he was in the Dark Forest. And then there's Antpelt, who was loyal to the Dark Forest even after he died. So, it doesn't just seem to be whether a cat was good or evil in life, but also if they're loyal to StarClan and the warrior code, and possibly their subconscience as well. That's how I always interpreted it anyway.
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Post by mothsnap on Jan 14, 2018 16:23:57 GMT -5
Adding to what Feather said, you also have to consider Darkstripe. He was trying to find StarClan since he died until he encountered Tigerstar again in Sunset. Although, I suppose you could argue that it might also depend on a cat's subconscious, and Darkstripe just wanted to be with wherever Tigerstar was. It just so happened that he was in the Dark Forest. And then there's Antpelt, who was loyal to the Dark Forest even after he died. So, it doesn't just seem to be whether a cat was good or evil in life, but also if they're loyal to StarClan and the warrior code, and possibly their subconscience as well. That's how I always interpreted it anyway. Not sure how that's adding to what Feather said cause it's honestly agreeing more with what I said, but yeah exactly. I agree with that.
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Jan 14, 2018 16:27:06 GMT -5
Adding to what Feather said, you also have to consider Darkstripe. He was trying to find StarClan since he died until he encountered Tigerstar again in Sunset. Although, I suppose you could argue that it might also depend on a cat's subconscious, and Darkstripe just wanted to be with wherever Tigerstar was. It just so happened that he was in the Dark Forest. And then there's Antpelt, who was loyal to the Dark Forest even after he died. So, it doesn't just seem to be whether a cat was good or evil in life, but also if they're loyal to StarClan and the warrior code, and possibly their subconscience as well. That's how I always interpreted it anyway. Not sure how that's adding to what Feather said cause it's honestly agreeing more with what I said, but yeah exactly. I agree with that. Adding, as in going into more detail with it.
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