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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 6:27:29 GMT -5
Which cats do you think represents any of these?
-Kindness -Humility -Patience -Chastity -Temperance -Charity -Diligence
•Sloth •Greed •Lust •Envy •Gluttony •Pride •Wrath
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Post by Moonblazer on Jul 20, 2017 7:47:33 GMT -5
Cinderpelt represents a ton of those first ones XD
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Post by Basement Cat on Jul 20, 2017 8:50:51 GMT -5
O boi, this is my kind of topic. But, after I get back from Microbio at 3.
Let's just say I have dwelled on this concept enough to make artwork from it.
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Post by Kibui on Jul 20, 2017 18:16:31 GMT -5
-Kindness - As much as I hate her: Leafpool
-Humility - Yellowfang...maybe?
-Patience - Lionheart
-Chastity - this isn't really something that is tackled in the books but I guess Littlebird, Whitewing and Larksong could all be associated with it because they tried to tell other when and that they should take mates I guess?
-Temperance - Cinderpelt
-Charity - Moth Flight
-Diligence - Firestar
•Sloth - Daisy (shhh, don't bother. remove what you were going to type angrily because nothing will ever change my view on her), Sol
•Greed - Brokenstar, Clear Sky in his early stages
•Lust - ...Crowfeather...? Again, sexual themes are not really a theme but if you expand it to loving someone then maybe?
•Envy - Ashfur, that's probably a no brainer, Ivypool in her early stages
•Gluttony - Slash
•Pride - Tigerstar, Clear Sky
•Wrath - Bluestar, Scourge, Mapleshade
There are probably better picks for some points but oh well
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Post by wadevvilson on Jul 20, 2017 18:21:36 GMT -5
Too tired to really think of anything useful, so I'm just going to lurk on this thread and see what other people come up with.
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Post by Basement Cat on Jul 20, 2017 19:28:33 GMT -5
Let's start off with my favorite: Seven Deadly Sins!
Envy
Envy is...desiring what others have. And, being spiteful, petty and jealous that one doesn't have what others have. It can be taken further into Scadenfreude, where one they want someone to suffer because they don't have what that person has. Most yanderes commit the sin of envy.
Envy was easy to figure out. The cats can't afford to be envious. They have to put their feelings aside for the sake of the Clan. But, none can pale to the pettiness, spitefulness, and hate that is Mapleshade.
I considered Blossomfall and Ivypool, but they were just jealous, not envious. That is because jealousy is just wishing you had things another person has. Envy is wanting to be another person, and live their life. They want it, whatever 'it' is. That is pretty much's Mapleshade's story. However, what really made think she fits this perfectly was her confrontation with Sandstorm.
It turns out, Mapleshade had an extreme hatred towards Sandstorm. She wanted her suffer because Maplehade thought she deserved the life that Sandstorm had. She also has shades of this even before OotS. She thought in her head towards Reedshine how Appledusk was hers, even thinking about how she would be having HIS kits. She even went as far as to try and kill Reedshine because she hated that Reedshine was having Appledusk's kits. She even targeted Reedshine’s living descendants. She tormented Crookedstar for revenge. This was just because he was related to Reedshine, whom she envied. No, not Appledusk, the cat who wronged her, but Reedshine, who was not intentionally ill-willed towards Mapleshade.
Contrast Leafpool, who exemplifies Kindness. Curiously enough, both were wronged due to their own actions, but Leafpool was never spiteful or envious of Nightcloud while Mapleshade was to Reedshine. - Gluttony
Gluttony is desire for excess. In its broadest term, it is the over-consumption of everything. The glutton takes more than they need. The glutton is unsatisfied, and demands for more. The glutton overindulges on things to the point of waste.
Of all that I mulled over, picking out Gluttony was the second most difficult. Finding a character to fit was challenging as Gluttony is not very common in Warriors, what with fighting for their survival and whatnot. The few examples I could think of were Graystripe and Bumblestripe's eating habits, and a villainous example of Darkstripe with Sorrelkit and earlier on, Poppydawn. I didn't even think of Brokenstar that much in the traditional sense of Gluttony. So, decided to look past the traditional sense for a more broadened approach.
I realized Brokenstar fits Gluttony all too well.
Gluttony is not just food related. It is the overindulgence of things to the point of waste. Food is usually involved, but not always. So, let's review Brokenstar's sins and his wastefulness.
Drove the elders and sickly out? Check. Wasted potential warriors by killing them as young kits? Check. Drove his medicine cat and own mother out which would also waste even more lives as there was no medicine cat? Check. Stole Thornkit, Brightkit, Brackenkit and Cinderkit, thus taking more than he needed? Check. Drove out WindClan because he wanted their territory, then stabbed ThunderClan in the back for their kindness? Check. Congratulations Brokenstar, you're an arse! : ) Also, he wasted Beetlewhisker’s life as well for no real reason. Also Ferncloud, which is ironic considering she’s almost the exact opposite of Brokenstar. Also it is sad.
Also, remember how I stated I didn't think much about Brokenstar fitting gluttony at first? Well, he actually does have some food related examples of gluttony.
He forced his Clan to eat crowfood. He stole prey from WindClan territory after he drove them out. Also, he earned ironic karma because his mother force-fed him deathberries.
Contrast Ivypool and Bramblestar, who exemplify Temperance. Curiously enough, Brokenstar would be the main problem of Ivypool's forced Temperance, and Brokenstar killed his father out of his desire for more power, while Bramblestar stopped himself in time. - Greed
Lemme stop you while we're here. We all know who is going to exemplify Greed.
Greed is the desire for stuff. Basically, greed is wanting MORE. AND MORE - usually money.) It is also desiring material possessions such as...a leadership position? Tigerstar took that and ran with it. Although that doesn't stop him, even in death.
* He killed Redtail to become deputy, and thus to gain higher status. * He saw Firestar as an obstacle in his path to become leader. * Planned against Bluestar for the sake of his ambition. * Took over ShadowClan because screw you Bluestar he is becoming leader! * Formed TigerClan and stabbed Leopardstar in the back because he wasn't satisfied with being just ShadowClan leader. * He wasn't satisfied with being TigerClan leader so he decided to take over the whole Clans with BloodClan which ends with him getting eviscerated to death by a wrathful Scourge. * He wasn't satisfied with THAT, so he plots against the Clans...in death. * He tried to get his sons in the family business because he was going to realize his ambitions through his sons. * He tried to get his grandson in family business because of the same reason above.
Need I go on? The cat is greed incarnate.
Contrast Bluestar, who exemplifies Charity. Curiously enough, it is Tigerstar's greed that led to Bluestar's mental breakdown and temporary fall from her charitable nature.
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Lust
Lust is...interesting. It is a desire for pleasure, and giving into the temptations of the flesh. While most depictions treat it as more physical in nature, a more accurate description would be desire for worldly things. Just as well, lust ties into delusion, such as a desire for hallucinogens that distort reality. Sometimes a lustful person only sees what they desire, and not the real person/thing. That thing they want is just an object...
This was very, very hard to figure out - the most difficult, in fact. Lust is not common in Warriors, and if it is, it's often in forbidden romances. This is because a lot of characters and situations in Warriors can be interpreted several different way. Spiderleg and Daisy had a one-night stand, but does that qualify? GrayXSilver was just cat hormones, right? So...yeah, it was very difficult. I thought about using Crowfeather, but he didn't come off as the type of terrible that I was looking for. I even thought about using Hawkfrost due to the meta notion that somehow he gets all the mates, not to mention his interactions towards other characters coming off as sexual, (and creepy) but that was just an interpretation, not canon. No cat seemed to exemplify it. So I thought, who is warriors is obsessive, has no control over their desires, and thinks they are entitled to someone?
"Upset? I'm not upset. You have no idea how much pain I'm in. It's like being cut open every day, bleeding onto the stones. I can't understand how any of you failed to see the blood..."
...
Duh.
No other character but Ashfur fit. And he fits perfectly. Sexually speaking, he wanting to be mates with Squirrelflight and have kits with her. She wanted to be friends, and he reacted. Badly. VERY BADLY. His problem was obsession. He was obsessed over a Squirrelflight that did not exist. He did not care about what she wanted. He did not care about her feelings. He only cared about himself. He never controlled himself or his desires and let his obsession of her get worse, and worse, and worse, and until he ended up helping a traitor assassinate his leader. just to hurt her. Then he tried to kill her kits, because HOW DARE SHE NOT DO WHAT HE WANTED TO?! Then there is Yellowfang's line about him 'loving too much.' Yes, he did love her too much. A false her that he wanted to see. He never loved the real Squirrelflight at all.
Contrast Thrushpelt, who exemplifies Chastity. Curiously enough, Ashfur is a shadow archetype to Thrushpelt. - Pride
Pride is setting oneself above God. This is often the biggest, worst sin, as a prideful person is too prideful to repent and admit they were wrong. A prideful person is full of themselves, their image, and place themselves before anyone else. They are selfish, arrogant, and they often have the biggest falls.
Pride is common in Warriors, and treated as a good thing to have. I mean, it is, but I need to a cat to represent the sin of pride. I thought of Clear Sky, whose pride and arrogance caused problems. I thought of every hamfisted villain in warriors belting out their plans. But...they never captured the fall. I didn't feel what it was like to see a character completely destroyed by their pride. But Hollyleaf...
No doubt in my mind, she exemplifies Pride. While so many cats have pride, and have shown pride, none compare to Hollyleaf's downfall.
As stated, pride is often the worst sin, as it is setting oneself above God. Or, above the highest power, or whatever you believe. It is putting oneself first, and believing one is better than all else.
Hollyleaf showed a great deal of arrogance and selfishness in Power of Three. She believed she was destined for greater things, thought she was better than cats outside the Clans, and set herself up to be praised as a hero and to be recognized. While she did go to RiverClan out of kindness, she also did so because she thought only she could help them. She originally became a medicine cat because she wanted the respect and recognition Leafpool had, as she wanted to be important and known. Later on, she starts to have a mental breakdown as she discovers she isn't as special as she thought she was, and is terrified to think she might have be born outside the Clan. She then kills Ashfur to keep that secret. Then, when she discovers Crowfeather is her father, and Leafpool, her mother, the knowledge her very birth broke the Warrior Code pushes her over the edge. She decides to play 'God' and punish Leafpool and Squirrelflight herself, by revealing the secret and later trying to force Leafpool to eat deathberries. Then, too prideful to admit her wrongs, she runs off into the tunnels, as 'no cat will understand.' It takes an entire story for her to humble herself and admit she was wrong. The rest of her story is atoning for her sins. This is very interesting, as pride is often the sin that cannot be atoned for. Of all the characters I chose, Hollyleaf is the only antagonist to better herself and become an unquestionable true hero.
Contrast Firestar, who represents Humility. Curiously enough, Firestar is Hollyleaf's kin and was built up from humble origins, while Hollyleaf's fall began when she realized she was not as powerful or great as she thought. - Sloth
A slothful person is one who has no desire to do anything. It is apathy, and can even spiral into depression. A slothful person does the bare minimum to get by, and tries to get other people to do things for them. Sloth is also shown as spiritual laziness, with morals and good works being too much work to put effort into.
C'mon, we all knew Sol was going to exemplify this.
Sloth is the lack of desire to do anything, but sloth is also the absence of spirituality. Sol fits both of these definitions. So, Here's a quick summary to show how lazy I am Sol is.
He wanted to become a Sky warrior, but was not willing to put in the work involved. He decides to take the easy way out by kidnapping Leafstar's kits and being seen as a hero. This does not work. He forms his own 'Clan,' but hardly cares about them or their well-being, and orders them around such as telling them to go get him some prey. This is after they were attacked by dogs, also. He barely hunts for himself, and manipulates the characters around him into doing what he wants instead of doing it himself. He causes ShadowClan to become slothful spiritually as they turn their back against Starclan while Sol is at the reigns. Then there is the fact Sol himself is spiritually slothful, as he has no faith in StarClan. Also, he hardly physically fights. When he does fight, he gets his bum kicked.
He also fits nigh every single trope of the slothful villain. He is manipulative, and is constantly pulling the characters on strings. He is a chessmaster and puppeteer, but also hardly gets far with his plans as he only relies on his mind. He also tends to break cats by talking, causing them to be slothful and apathetic as they question themselves and their beliefs. He's pretty much a lazy corrupting dingus.
Contrast to Hollyleaf, who exemplifies Diligence. Curiously enough, both are arch enemies and Sol was defeated due to Hollyleaf's diligence. - Wrath
Wrath is desiring revenge against those who wronged you. A wrathful person can be hateful, spiteful, and so consumed with rage they don't realize what kind of monster they are becoming in their quest for vengeance. They are those who desire punishment and retribution against the transgressions done to them.
This one was kind of difficult to pick, as Warriors has a lot of wrathful characters. Wrath is generally interpreted as wanting retribution against those who wronged you. I originally thought about Mapleshade being portrayed as this, as wrath is desire for vengeance and well "Mapleshade's Vengeance". I also thought about Ashfur and Breezepelt, although Ashfur's 'wrath' was mere delusion, which I have already elaborated on.
So then, I thought about Scourge. I realized, his entire story is about his wrath. Hatred towards Tigerpaw, and Tiny's promise to kill him was literally why Tiny became Scourge in the first place. He was created to fit this position.
Contrast Patience. Curiously enough, the author's deadly sin is Wrath, and SHE STILL CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT CAT FITS PATIENCE.
I'M GONNA THROW SOMETHING
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Post by Moonblazer on Jul 20, 2017 19:36:35 GMT -5
Hm...you're right. Who represents patience? Maybe Littlecloud? A cat who can keep their cool and patience in tough situations and is able to wait as long as needed for the right outcome?
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Post by Basement Cat on Jul 20, 2017 19:50:50 GMT -5
Seven Heavenly Virtues
Charity
Charity is putting everyone before oneself, no matter what happens to oneself. It is the desire to better the earth and wanting to help others. It can even accumulate to putting another's life before one's own.
Several cats fit Charity. The medicine cats are trained to be charitable. Spottedleaf is a particular example, as she gives to the Clans even after her death. (Well, pesters and stalks them buuuut) Feathertail I almost picked, but I struggled to find enough reasons for why she would be perfect. to exemplify Charity.
Feathertail did give her life to save the tribe. She even saw something to like in Crowfeather when the rest didn't. Even in death she walks among the cats's ancestors whom she gave everything for, and continues to be charitable. But...it just isn't a strong enough reason.
So, it really did make perfect sense in the end. Bluestar fits Charity almost perfectly. It's because she really did put her Clan before herself and her feelings.
She knew Thistleclaw couldn't become leader, so she sent her kits away to Oakheart because her Clan needed her, and she chose to put her Clan's needs before herself. She desired to make ThunderClan better than the vision Thistleclaw wanted, and while driven by her own ambitions, she truly wanted to help do what she could. She put her own life on the line, whether it was fighting off rats, dogs, or other Clans.
But...every Clan leader does this. So what would make Bluestar any different?
It is because she wavered in her charity. But, it was that instance where we could see just how much she truly did give to her Clan.
When she became senile and mad, she started to only put herself first, calling the Clan she tried to protect traitors and denying herself basic needs. But, when they needed her most - when Fireheart needed her most...she gave everything. She sacrificed her very life to save Fireheart from the dogs and drowned, knowing she was on her last life. This is the ultimate form of charity, to give every last part of one's being to save others.
Contrast Tigerstar, who exemplifies Greed. Curiously enough, Tigerstar's betrayal by his Greed is what drove Bluestar to madness. - Chastity
Chastity avoids the pleasures of the flesh. A chaste hero/person shows discipline and self-control over their desires. It is the virtue of making a choice to what one thinks is the morally wright thing to do instead of giving into temptation. In the physical sense, is it often interpreted as abstaining from physical pleasures.
Two instantly come to mind. Cinderpelt and Thrushpelt. Even Brambleclaw, to an extent. Cinderpelt disciplined her feelings for Firestar and put her duties as medicine cat first, choosing to do what she thought was morally right. She kept the code, and did not break her vows. However, she did have conflicted feelings about her choices. Brambleclaw abstained from the power he desired, did not give into temptation, and chose to do what he thought was morally right.
But of them all, Thrustpelt exemplifies Chastity the most. He completely put Bluestar's wants ahead of his own. He truly loved Bluestar, but showed discipline and self control, as well as refusing to give into his own temptations. Even in the physical sense, he put Bluestar's wants first. He even covered for Bluestar's own lustful moment with Oakheart by claiming the kits as his own.
Contrast this to Ashfur, who I picked to exemplify Lust. Curiously enough, Ashfur is a Shadow Archetype to Thrushpelt. - Diligence
The diligent person never gives up. They never waver. That keep their goals ahead, and refuse to fall into despair. They are steadfast and stay true to what they believe. They put 110% into everything, and they constantly work on improving themselves.
This is a core belief of all the cats, so trying to come up with a specific one who exemplifies this is challenging. You could say Jayfeather, who won't ever give up on a patient. You could say Brambleclaw, who worked to prove he wasn't his father's shadow. Ivypool worked her butt off in the DF. But...all of these lack something that the cat I chose to exemplify Diligence has.
They lack a fall. Ivypool could count, but we never saw her have to start from scratch again. Dovewing forgave her fairly quickly. But Hollyleaf...she had to start back from square one.
Yep. Hollyleaf exemplifies Diligence to a T.
The thing is, Hollyleaf wasn't always diligent. She DID waver. She DID give up. And that is why, when she came back, and starting working to the bone to redeem herself, it stuck with us. no other cat (I think) had to start back from square one and rebuild themselves up from the ground like Hollyleaf did. But she did it. When she returned, she never wavered. She never gave up. She kept pushing and pushing herself, and not once did she give up on her beliefs. She was steadfast and worked to improve herself to the very end.
Contrast Sol, whose exemplifies Sloth. Curiously enough, Sol and Hollyleaf are arch-enemies and ideologically opposed. - Humility
A humble person is modest. They don't care for fame or glory. They are not to be mistaken as weak-willed or with low self-esteem. Their strength is the knowledge they don't have to be powerful and grand to be great. They show respect, selflessness, and do not boast of their accomplishments. They avoid placing themselves on a pedestal, and speak among others as an equal.
Humble cats are hard to come by in Warriors. The nature of the series itself has a bunch of prideful cats who boast of teir skills and accomplishments. But, there are a few who stand out.
There is Dovewing, who just wants to be normal and like every other cat. She doesn't care for power or glory. Then you have Ravenpaw, who just wants a nice quaint home with his boyfriend Barley. He doesn't want the same kind of glory and fame as ThunderClan did. But of them all, the original kittypet turned savior of the Clans wins out.
Firestar is a very humble cat. He's great and powerful, yes, but he never lords it. He never uses his power for personal gain, and he doesn't treat himself as any better than the rest of his Clan. His Clanmates are equal and he walks among them as leader, not above them on a pedestal. He is respectful, and only boasts of ThunderClan's strength, not his own.
Contrast Hollyleaf, who exemplifies Pride. Curiously enough, Firestar and Hollyleaf are kin, and Firestar's humble rise to power contrasts Hollyleaf's pride before a fall. - Kindness
A kind person is a friend to all living things. They look for the good in everyone. They refuse to fall into hate, and look without prejudice or jealousy. They are unselfish in love and are good towards all life.
I really had to think about this one. The thing is, the characters can't really afford kindness. The characters who are qualified to represent Kindness also don't go without killing life themselves (prey). They also don't give the DF a chance to redeem themselves. It's not a complete definition of kindness. So, three cats came to mind. Spottedleaf, Whitewing, and Leafpool.
I eliminated Spottedleaf first. She was kind, yes, but she also got an entire story dedicating how she was jealous of Sandstorm, the exact opposite of kindness. Plus, she manipulated Leafpool to have the Three using kindness, so I can't really have her exemplify kindness when she used it to have Leafpool go against the code then left her to deal with the consequences.
Then I thought about Whitewing. Lionblaze says 'No, just...no', at the thought of Whitewing training in the DF. She does love her daughters unconditionally, and she did stay behind on apprentice training so Birchfall wouldn't be alone. But...while she is very nice, she just doesn't exemplify it as much as Leafpool does.
Here's the thing. I do think Whitewing is more kind than Leafpool. BUT, I don't think Whitewing exemplifies Kindness. It is because...Leafpool has had trials and tribulations that have tested her limits, and she came through still kind-hearted.
She saw something in Crowfeather, even when she didn't like him before. Everything in PoT she did to protect her kits and their futures, and afterwards, she accepted her punishment. She knew the consequences. And while she could get snappy, she was never hateful, never bitter. But, the real reason I think she exemplifies Kindness has to do with Sunrise. Leafpool had been beaten down to beyond despair, yet even when Hollyleaf is trying to make her eat deathberries, she is still looking for the good in Hollyleaf. When she returns again, Leafpool isn't bitter, or angry. Leafpool is overjoyed. She's suffered because of her daughter's actions and her own, yet she isn't angry or hateful.
She doesn't envy Nightcloud, and understands that her time with Crowfeather is over. I think, perhaps, Leafpool is one of the least selfish, hateful cats.
Contrast Mapleshade, who exemplifies Envy. Curiously enough, Leafpool was also punished for forbidden love, yet did not give into envy and hate like Mapleshade did. - Patience
A patient person is one who can forgive and be merciful. A patient person rejects revenge, understands and accepts the faults of others, and will solve conflicts through peace and understanding. A patient person can weather what life throws at them and refuse to give into anger, no matter how righteous it may be.
Sir Not Appearing in this List
(Patience is...a work in progress. I can't pick which fits best. I've thought of Crookedstar, Spottedleaf, Half Moon, Tallstar, etc...It's a mess.)
Contrast Scourge, who exemplifies Wrath. - Temperance
Temperance is control of oneself. Temperance is mindfulness, self-control, and moderation. A temperate person abstains from things they don't need, and refrains from taking too much. A temperant person must be able to stay neutral and and just without falling into extremes. The biggest factor of temperance is restraint.
This was...hard. The exact idea of it is akin to a soldier being taught discipline and order of oneself.
So, I present two sides of the virtue: Ivypool and Brambleclaw.
Ivypool had no choice but to become temperate. Otherwise the Dark Forest's gluttony would eat her alive. It's because Ivypool had to teach herself restraint and control. She couldn't take a public side without being murdered for it, so she had to be secretive about her true loyalties. She had to moderate her feelings and emotions to carry her mission out. She also had to abstain from taking and claiming the things she wanted and show self control. She couldn't afford to be gluttonous.
Brambleclaw, however, was tempted by gluttony. Tigerstar offered him what he wanted most, and he wanted more of it. However, he restrains himself from what he wants. He chooses moderation over excess. He was mindful of what he was becoming and showed self-control in not killing Firestar. Instead of taking too much, he took only as needed, and instead chose the just and fair option by becoming deputy and eventually leader as it happened. He stops himself at the last moment from falling into gluttony, and is able to temper himself and his hunger for power and respect.
Contrast Brokenstar, who exemplifies Gluttony. Curiously enough, Brokenstar forced Ivypool to be a glutton in the DF by testing her resolve. Brokenstar also took more than was needed by kidnapping Thornkit, Brightkit, Cinderkit and Brackenkit, while Brambleclaw stopped himself from taking Firestar's position as leader in Sunset.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 20, 2017 20:17:21 GMT -5
-Kindness: Honeyfern and Leafpool
-Humility: Ravenpaw and Dovewing
-Patience: Cinderpelt and Sun Shadow
-Chastity: Thrushpelt and Gray Wing
-Temperance: Ivypool and Bramblestar
-Charity: Feathertail and Moth Flight
-Diligence: Crookedstar and Firestar
•Sloth: Sol and Rain
•Greed: Tigerstar and Thistleclaw
•Lust: Ashfur and Slash
•Envy: Mapleshade and Breezepelt
•Gluttony: Brokenstar and One Eye
•Pride: Hollyleaf and Clear Sky
•Wrath: Darktail and Scourge
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Post by Katanaheart on Jul 21, 2017 11:22:15 GMT -5
Reading over your explanation of Patience... What character exemplifies Patience better than Tallstar? A cat, that was on the path of Wrath but changed when he realized it wasn't worth it. Throughout his long leadership, he had to be patient. When his Clan was driven out by ShadowClan, he had to lead them far away and had to deal with their troubles in horrible circumstances. However, this then does fall apart when one remembers how quickly Tallstar and Nightstar reacted in rage when they found it ThunderClan was holding Brokenstar, so that kind of falls apart there... Hmmm... Crookedstar? I don't remember him being rather wrathful... But he did try and take territory from WindClan when they were coming back....
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