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Post by EchoesOfOneself on Mar 27, 2017 3:46:16 GMT -5
i have come across numerous discussions on WCRP (and on other sites) regarding the controversial topic of there being a "StarClan" that kittypets, rogues, and/or loners join once they pass. It is my personal opinion, however, that these places do not in fact exist. Listed below is my evidence: Erin Hunter once stated that "the only reason why StarClan exists is [perhaps] the [living] warriors invented the concept". If you have read DotC, you will remember that during the first great battle, many cats died, and rose again as spirit cats, telling the living cats that they will guide them. If it is true (that the only reason why StarClan came into existence is because of the warriors (the rank didn't exist then, nor did the Clans) wanted them to live on), then you must consider this: has there ever been any major battle between rogues, loners, and/or kittypets (that deserves to be recorded in history as such) that would cause the survivors to "invent" a heaven - or an afterlife? My answer to that is no. Kittypets, for example, live a comfortable, pampered life, and to them, living in an afterlife in which they are completely surrounded by the wild would seem "scary" to them, to put it lightly. In other words, it wouldn't make sense. None of the three "groups" have any spiritual ancestors to guide them, and thus, when they pass (and this is just my opinion), they fade into nothingness. You could argue that "evil" rogues, kittypets, and loners might join the ranks of the Dark Forest once they die, but again, this statement is flawed in the same huge way as before: they have no warrior ancestors. Why would a Dark Forest exist for (3 groups) of cats that have no beliefs? (Not to mention that none of these "groups" could ever dream of such a horrifying place.) Additionally, unless I am mistaken, there have been no major battles between rogues, kittypets, and/or loners (that are worth recording), and no cat from either of these three "groups" has ever been part of a prophecy. (Again, they have no warrior ancestors!) Again, you could argue that a cat can choose to believe in anything, and that's true. But if you're a kittypet and you're living a comfortable, pampered, soft life with your housefolk, would you even need warrior ancestors to watch over you? Probably not. I could go on, but I won't, otherwise you'll get bored and stop reading. If you have any more "evidence" you'd like to present, feel free to comment below! HUGE Update: Look at the comments below and you will see that my theory here is, in fact, incorrect! My bad! Forget that this article ever existed! XP
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Post by Kibui on Mar 27, 2017 5:05:13 GMT -5
The concept of kittypet heaven is a little like Schrödinger's cat: it exists but it also doesn't. It depends on what you think happens to non-Clan cats after they die. If you think they have their own kittypet heaven, then that's where they'll got. If you think they cease to exists then that's what happens to them. If you think something other than those two options happens to them, then that's how it'll be like.
Except for very few exceptions like Scourge who's been confirmed to have faded from existance or Jake who's supposed to be in kittypet heaven (though this can be argued upon because of the wording) the cats just simply go where you'd like them to go (or not if you think they just stop existing). Jake, however, has to be in some kind of afterlife as proven by Tallstar's Revenge
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2017 7:29:15 GMT -5
The only evidence I have of one existing is like, the previous poster said, Jake is present in spirit form at the death of Tallstar in the manga of Tallstar's Revenge, so he must have gone to some afterlife when he died.
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Post by perfectlypink♥ on Mar 27, 2017 8:25:32 GMT -5
We also have to consider there are non-clan cats who believe in Starclan. Let's take Barley for example; it's confirmed he believes in Starclan, and during the huge battle in The Darkest Hour he tells Firestar that he does. But when Barley dies, does he live with the Clan cats in Starclan? As in the place where cats like Bluestar or Yellowfang live, or is he still a loner in Starclan? It's interesting to think about.
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Post by wheeledwarrior on Mar 27, 2017 9:44:37 GMT -5
I thought Ravenpaw refused to go to Starclan because it was confirmed Barley couldn't enter...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2017 9:46:39 GMT -5
I thought Ravenpaw refused to go to Starclan because it was confirmed Barley couldn't enter... Ravenpaw is in StarClan. He gave Bramblestar one of his lives.
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Post by wheeledwarrior on Mar 27, 2017 10:35:28 GMT -5
I thought Ravenpaw refused to go to Starclan because it was confirmed Barley couldn't enter... Ravenpaw is in StarClan. He gave Bramblestar one of his lives. I meant that he refused to stay there because it was implied Barley could not come with him. However, he was given a place there, and was welcome to travel. It's similar to what happened to Feathertail. That's discussed in Ravenpaw Farewell. The specific exchange is: Bluestar: “You know that your time is drawing to an end, I think. Would you like to join us in Starclan? You would be very welcome.”
Ravenpaw: “I cannot join you. There is someone I need to wait for. I hope there is a place where we can be together, even though he is not a Clan cat.”
Lionheart: “We understand. And rest assured, there is a place waiting for you both. But you are welcome to visit us in Starclan whenever you wish. You will find a way, I promise.”
So this entire exchange implies that belief is not enough to take a cat to Starclan. Apparently, Barley can't go to Starclan despite believing. It makes it confusing, because non-Clan have gone to Starclan before because they believed (thinking mainly of Mole from Tallstar’s Revenge). And then we have cats like Cloudtail and Mothwing, who don't believe but are confirmed to go to Starclan when they die. It would seem that going to Starclan also means that a cat has to serve a Clan for an extended period of time, and follow the Code. But then we have cases like Fallen Leaves, who still went to Starclan, despite the Code and Clans not being established during his life. I feel like this is why we need a book on Starclan, but the Hunters said that will never happen because there's not enough to write a book about…
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Post by Owlmoon on Mar 27, 2017 13:59:37 GMT -5
I always think of it as different little pockets in heaven. StarClan and the DF may have some of the biggest pockets, but that doesn't mean other types of cats don't.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2017 16:36:28 GMT -5
Ravenpaw is in StarClan. He gave Bramblestar one of his lives. I meant that he refused to stay there because it was implied Barley could not come with him. However, he was given a place there, and was welcome to travel. It's similar to what happened to Feathertail. That's discussed in Ravenpaw Farewell. The specific exchange is: Bluestar: “You know that your time is drawing to an end, I think. Would you like to join us in Starclan? You would be very welcome.”
Ravenpaw: “I cannot join you. There is someone I need to wait for. I hope there is a place where we can be together, even though he is not a Clan cat.”
Lionheart: “We understand. And rest assured, there is a place waiting for you both. But you are welcome to visit us in Starclan whenever you wish. You will find a way, I promise.”
So this entire exchange implies that belief is not enough to take a cat to Starclan. Apparently, Barley can't go to Starclan despite believing. It makes it confusing, because non-Clan have gone to Starclan before because they believed (thinking mainly of Mole from Tallstar’s Revenge). And then we have cats like Cloudtail and Mothwing, who don't believe but are confirmed to go to Starclan when they die. It would seem that going to Starclan also means that a cat has to serve a Clan for an extended period of time, and follow the Code. But then we have cases like Fallen Leaves, who still went to Starclan, despite the Code and Clans not being established during his life. I feel like this is why we need a book on Starclan, but the Hunters said that will never happen because there's not enough to write a book about… Oops. Haven't read Ravenpaw's Farewell. My bad.
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Post by Tas on Mar 27, 2017 18:11:16 GMT -5
I feel like this is why we need a book on Starclan, but the Hunters said that will never happen because there's not enough to write a book about… There's TOTALLY enough to write about!! (sorry about the mess with the quote
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Post by EchoesOfOneself on Mar 27, 2017 20:21:07 GMT -5
There's TOTALLY enough to write about!! (sorry about the mess with the quote Exactly! If Tolkien could write a series of notes (which were over 300 pages, or even much more than that) about the creation of Middle Earth and everything that came before... not to mention that most of it was about spirits and reincarnation and stuff... and he could figure it out... why couldn't Erin Hunter? (I'm not saying that Erin Hunter is nearly as a good of a writer as Tolkien, I'm just saying he managed to accumulate enough notes, interesting facts, etc. that it turned out to be hundreds of pages long.) I think the main reason they aren't writing a book about StarClan is because they want ppl to imagine what StarClan is for themselves, instead of being directly told what happens. They don't have enough stuff to write about (about StarClan) that wouldn't say, "Hey, remember that theory you happened about such and such that occurs after such and such? It's not true." They just want ppl to "imagine".
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Post by Gяαч Sкч on Mar 28, 2017 1:24:25 GMT -5
I disagree. Spirits of the warrior ancestors have been around long before the battle at Fourtrees, and even long before the cats settled down at the lake. During the Last Hope, the ancestors of the ancient tribes who lived around the lake long ago were shown, and we have seen Fallen Leaves's spirit. If the afterlife didn't exist until the Clans were formed, how could these spirits still be around? Not to mention, the Tribe has it's own afterlife and they were not at the battle
As for other cats, they have also been shown to have an afterlife. Leafstar's mother who was a rogue gave her a life at her nine lives ceremony. Jake guided Tallstar to StarClan. And lastly, after Tadpole died, Tigerstar (who was dead) told Sasha that he wasn't with him but was safe. Leafstar's mother, Jake, and Tadpole were all cats who existed outside of the Clans but are shown to be alive in the afterlife. Jake was even a kittypet, and if he didn't need an afterlife to watch him because he lived a comfortable life, why would his spirit still be around?
It just does not make sense to me that the Clans invented an afterlife, when afterlives have been shown.
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Post by EchoesOfOneself on Mar 28, 2017 1:30:14 GMT -5
I disagree. Spirits of the warrior ancestors have been around long before the battle at Fourtrees, and even long before the cats settled down at the lake. During the Last Hope, the ancestors of the ancient tribes who lived around the lake long ago were shown, and we have seen Fallen Leaves's spirit. If the afterlife didn't exist until the Clans were formed, how could these spirits still be around? Not to mention, the Tribe has it's own afterlife and they were not at the battle As for other cats, they have also been shown to have an afterlife. Leafstar's mother who was a rogue gave her a life at her nine lives ceremony. Jake guided Tallstar to StarClan. And lastly, after Tadpole died, Tigerstar (who was dead) told Sasha that he wasn't with him but was safe. Leafstar's mother, Jake, and Tadpole were all cats who existed outside of the Clans but are shown to be alive in the afterlife. Jake was even a kittypet, and if he didn't need an afterlife to watch him because he lived a comfortable life, why would his spirit still be around? It just does not make sense to me that the Clans invented an afterlife, when afterlives have been shown. You know what... you are absolutely right. Those points you just made... for some reason, I didn't even consider them. Thank you for your words of motivational wisdom. I think this thread SHOULD have been titled, "Reasons Why There IS a Kittypet Heaven". I don't even know how I slipped passed those points (that you made)... They completely disprove my opinion. Again... thank you. Well, Erin Hunter does have a history of saying one thing, contradicting it some other time later, and sometimes even going back to the original idea much later on. Or at least that's what I've heard.
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