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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 12:07:45 GMT -5
In my Nightcloud topic, I asked if people sympathize with her and I find it surprising that people don't because I've seen a few people defend her so much in certain situations with her and Crowfeather.
If I may ask, why don't you sympathize with her? I'm not saying you have to, I don't even like her, just curious as to why people actually dislike her and don't care about her.
I do sympathize with her, but I hate the way how she treats Breezepelt. Coddling with your son isn't good parenting, whatever people might think. Breezepelt should have had a chance to prove to his father but he never did, because she was so overprotective. And now it's too late, since he sided with the Dark Forest.
If you're too overprotective, the child will never learn to be independent on their own. And Nightcloud gives bad examples for parenting, like dragging Leafpool off of Crowfeather or yelling at him.. and I see people defend her for this! Do people just not understand how stressful it can be to see parents argue? We even saw in a scene that Breezepelt was stressed out and wailed while they were arguing. And the way she treated Crowfeather with Leafpool was uncalled for.
Crowfeather is an a$$hole too, he shouldn't have been cold with his son, but Nightcloud too wasn't a good mother.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 12:59:32 GMT -5
I will STILL refuse to believe she ever loved Crowfeather, but I guess I have to in order to answer this.
1) She never did love Crowfeather and used him as much as he used her.
In this case, I do not sympathize with her because all she wanted was kits out of whoever asked to be her mate, and she was more than happy to have Crowfeather since he was desperate to prove his loyalty at this time. She chose Crowfeather despite knowing he ran away with Thunderclan's medicine cat, and there's also the implications of maybe he loved Feathertail from Riverclan since he named himself in her honor/memory. And despite knowing this, she still chose to stay, she still tried to "make" him love her just to maybe make their little family work a bit more realistically to prove it was a happy family to the judgemental clan of Windclan. She still chose to stay even when she saw how neglectful Crowfeather was towards her "precious little baby." She still chose to stay when she realized Crowfeather never stopped loving Leafpool (border skirmish scene). She still overwhelms her son with self-centerness attitudes by making him think he was perfect or could do no wrong, and therefore he grew up to be a brat who loathed his father more so than the usual bitterness of dysfunctional families (he basically joined the dark side of the force because he has daddy issues and thought everyone should suffer too). So no, she is stubborn and chose to stay with Crowfeather. She chose to coddle her son instead of raising him to be an independent and justful warrior, etc. In this case, she has no sympathy.
2) She did love Crowfeather at some point during the relationship, but has supposedly grew out of love later on
In THIS case, she STILL doesn't get my sympathy. The only thing THIS changes is the fact that now Nightcloud is reduced to a love-blinded idiot. The reasons for case #1 still stand in this case too, only now Nightcloud is, to me at least, a dumb fool instead of a calculating/manipulative stubborn fool. No sympathy for her here because even if she did love him at some point, that "love" blinded her for a while. She still thought she could FORCE him to love her just because she's the mother of his kit(s). That gains no sympathy from me. Even if she did love him after he asked her, it doesn't change the fact that she tried to force him to love her, which is in itself stupid and gains NO sympathy from me. Even if she does eventually fall out of love for him, why does she stay with him? Why does their image as a "happy little family" matter more than her own dignity? She's stupid in either case and I still have absolutely NO sympathy for someone like her. Someone who forces love onto someone else when that person clearly has no romantic intentions towards you. It's just plain annoying and manipulative. AND she still doesn't raise Breezepelt correctly. She doesn't try to keep her "happy little family" together by at least trying to get Breezepelt to understand his own father. Nor did she try hard enough to make her own darn mate talk to his own son. Even if we don't see these things because it's not their POV's, there's still no shown effect of this when we see Breezepelt. He still turned out the way he did.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 13:03:50 GMT -5
I don't feel sorry for Nightcloud because she reminds me of my mom. My own parents have a relationship similar to Crowfeather and Nightcloud's relationship, so I have been through this first hand. It's hard for me to feel sympathetic for a character that reminds me of a person who has caused me grief in my own life. My dad was originally married, but his wife left him for someone else. He never got over her, and met my mom who was had also been divorced and who was trying to cope with losing custody of my half sister. Despite not having a good relationship right at the start, my mom accidentally got pregnant with me. Even before I was born they fought, and that didn't stop after I came along. My first memory is of them fighting, and not just verbally. They fought all the time, and they weren't good parents to me at all. Eventually my grandparents got me and raised me, because things were so bad.
Well, this only made things worse. As I grew up, my parents were around but they still fought and didn't bother to parent me like they should. This is where it gets into Nightcloud. Whenever my mom was around, she would smother me and just act very possessive of me. She would blame my dad for everything, and even though my dad isn't innocent, he isn't to blame for her mistakes in life. She would tell me lies about him to hurt me. She would go around town spreading rumors about him and just doing anything she could to make me and other people hate him. When I was young, my dad went to jail for a long time and I never knew where he was. No one told me the truth. It wasn't until recently my mom told me the truth for no reason, because she wanted to hurt me about him. That's the kind of thing she does, and it reminds me of Nightcloud.
It's a long story but to water it down, just a lot of similarities between irl and Nightcloud and it just bothers me because I have lived through this situation and been bothered by it.
That's why I don't like Nightcloud. She reminds me so much of my mom, who has hurt me by trying to make me hate my dad and who has done all kinds of stuff. So when I see Nightcloud doing similar, it just bothers me and I can't feel sympathy for her or what she has done because I've been in the other place and I know how that kind of behavior affects people.
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Post by Ligerfrost on Feb 24, 2017 13:54:27 GMT -5
What kind of self-respecting female stays with a male that doesn't love her? She stays with him literally because she's possessive of him and refuses to give him up. She encouraged her son to hurt Leafpool, Lionblaze, Jayfeather and Hollyleaf because she felt they didn't deserve to be born. She's always quick to start a fight when it comes to Breezepelt and say that Crowfeather cares nothing for him.
If Crowfeather has hurt her so much then why hasn't she left him? Why is she so possessive of him? Why is she so quick to rub their relationship in Leafpool's face when Leafpool knows she can't be with Crowfeather? Is she trying to play the victim? It's not like she was forced into the relationship by anyone, she could have ended it at any time. She's always quick to say Breezepelt is Crowfeather's only kit.
This is why I don't like her. Instead of breaking off their relationship and only speaking to him when it concerned Breezepelt or other Clan business, she decides to she wants to be vindictive. She literally stays with Crowfeather to be spiteful and her behavior helped spurn Breezepelt toward the direction he took.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 14:24:34 GMT -5
At any point, she could stand up in front of the clan, announce that she was no longer Crowfeather's mate, justify it by revealing the recent events with Leafpool, and done- she wouldnt need to deal with his problems anymore, nor would the clan bother her. But she just. Won't. Stop.
I get it, WindClan's culture sucks. But I can think of several ways she can leave the situation without being shamed by the clan- one of them I just mentioned. Nightcloud has plenty of proof of why she can break up with Crowfeather and still hold the clans respect- yet she refuses to give up.
It's not like she'll finally get him in StarClan either. Once she and Crowfeather die, it'll be all over and Crowfeather will end up with Leafpool after all. It's so obvious. Why waste your life on someone you know isn't going to choose you in the end? It just doesn't make sense.
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Feb 24, 2017 14:39:52 GMT -5
To a certain extent, yes. I sympathize with her in terms of trying to be both a mother and father to her only son while Crowfeather is cold towards him and it's pretty clear that he at least misses Leafpool. Pretty much everyone knows they had a history together and Leafpool herself has been shown to be jealous over Nightcloud as well. It also doesn't help that Crowfeather had been in love with Feathertail as well and named himself after her. I can imagine this causing some frustration for Nightcloud, especially after the secret was revealed.
That said, it's the way she's handling it is what I don't sympathize with. Her relationship with Crowfeather clearly isn't going anywhere and has only made things worse for her. It seems like she tried to get Crowfeather to at least acknowledge Breezepelt as a son like when she chides him to have more faith in Breezepaw after it seemed like Crowfeather didn't trust him in The Sight, but there's really nothing stopping Nightcloud from leaving Crowfeather besides her own pride, especially since Breezepelt now has a family of his own.
Nightcloud talking badly about Crowfeather to Breezepelt certainly couldn't have helped either.
At least Nightcloud's handling it better than Ashfur. Still bad, but at least she isn't trying to kill Leafpool or the latter's sonsโBreezepelt already tried to do that.
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwingโข
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Post by Holly Snow on Feb 24, 2017 14:42:39 GMT -5
People used to sympathize with Nightcloud before the release of The Ultimate Guide and Before the release of the Last Hope. These books painted Nightcloud as someone who spoiled Breezepelt and caused all of his wrongdoings as a way to spite Crowfeather and told lies about him, making Crowfeather blameless. Despite the fact nothing in the series prior suggests she did that. She didn't have to tell lies. He already did horrible things so there was nothing to lie about to make him look bad. Nightcloud may have not been the best mother for all we know, but judging by how Breezepelt treats her, we can see he respects her and is protective of her, unlike with others, so she couldn't have been smothering because that would cause its own form of hatred.
This is why I loathe crowfeather and loathe these books. The fandoms reaction to them is just stupid. Nothing about the books prior imply the content to be true yet people latch on to them as fact. Nevermind Crowfeather is abusive look at the word of god! It is clearly all Nightcloud's fault according to word of god! Word of God that isn't even trustworthy. We give everything else they say a grain of salt, why can't we do that with Nightcloud?
Nightcloud is emotional for me because she and Crowfeather remind me of my parents. When I was 12, my mom grew angry with my dad's behavior, which had become very off. He started doing things that one could describe as being very emotionally manipulative. She would rant about it to me despite the fact it made me upset because it was my dad. I wanted to say she was being biased but I could see myself that what he was doing wasn't right. When I was 12 I started reading warriors and seeing Crowfeathers behaviour made me berserk. I ended up projecting a lot of hatred onto him. It turned out my dad had dementia and thats why he was acting so odd. Crowfeather doesn't have dementia. My mom has a lot of problems, but she was justified in her anger. despite this I still think my complaints not linked to analogy hold up.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 14:44:38 GMT -5
๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ตThat's not necessarily true. She didn't need to be his dad. Even with main characters and their parents, Sandstorm interacted with Squirrelflight a bit more (especially when she talke dto her about Ashfur that one time, whereas Firestar didn't give advice like Sandstorm tried to). After Breezepelt became a warrior, he wouldn't need his mother NEARLY as much as he would have when he was a kit and apprentice. Nightcloud still chose to make her son hate his father even MORE so than he would have if she didn't say anything and let Crowfeather's inactiveness speak for itself. If she hated Crowfeather's attitude so much, why stay? That's why there is no reason to sympathize with her. She reaps what she sows.
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Feb 24, 2017 14:58:58 GMT -5
๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ตThat's not necessarily true. She didn't need to be his dad. Even with main characters and their parents, Sandstorm interacted with Squirrelflight a bit more (especially when she talke dto her about Ashfur that one time, whereas Firestar didn't give advice like Sandstorm tried to). After Breezepelt became a warrior, he wouldn't need his mother NEARLY as much as he would have when he was a kit and apprentice. Nightcloud still chose to make her son hate his father even MORE so than he would have if she didn't say anything and let Crowfeather's inactiveness speak for itself. If she hated Crowfeather's attitude so much, why stay? That's why there is no reason to sympathize with her. She reaps what she sows. That's pretty much what I've been saying, or trying to at least if you look at the second paragraph of my post... Really, the only thing keeping Nightcloud from leaving Crowfeather is her own pride at this point. And just because I (somewhat) sympathize with Nightcloud's situation, doesn't mean I agree with her actions. And to be fair, there's a large difference when it comes to CrowxNight's and FirexSand's parenting (or lack thereof). Squirrelflight came from a very loving family and though she didn't interact with Firestar much, it's clear they still loved each other. Crowfeather may care for Breezepelt at least, but it's obvious there's no love between them, so Nightcloud actually does have to fill the role of both parents here since Crowfeather is cold towards him. This doesn't mean I agree with her actions, this just means I'm trying to look at things from her perspective.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 15:10:34 GMT -5
๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ตif she knew he wouldnt love her, then what made her think he'd love their kid? its not super common for loveless marriages?
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Feb 24, 2017 15:48:08 GMT -5
Loveless marriages actually aren't that unusual. Maybe not that common, but it happens often enough and some parents even stay together solely for their children. This might've been what Nightcloud was hoping for, for Crowfeather to at least acknowledge Breezepelt as a son, but this grew into genuine dislike as time went on and now Nightcloud just sticks with Crowfeather out of pride. Her love for him faded. Hey, I never said what Nightcloud was doing was the smartest thing to do. And Crowfeather can leave as well since I doubt anyone actually believes he loves Nightcloud and Breezepelt, who has a family of his own now anyway. Really, they're both being idiots as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by โ
Maplefrostโ
on Feb 25, 2017 6:42:19 GMT -5
I don't remember Nightcloud encouraging Breezepelt to do anything really, let alone hurting other cats??
The only time we see any cats encourage Breezepelt was in the Dark Forest, and Crowfeather encouraging him to hate mix-blooded cats just to take barbs at Leafpool.
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Post by โ
Maplefrostโ
on Feb 25, 2017 6:45:43 GMT -5
Loveless marriages actually aren't that unusual. Maybe not that common, but it happens often enough and some parents even stay together solely for their children. This might've been what Nightcloud was hoping for, for Crowfeather to at least acknowledge Breezepelt as a son, but this grew into genuine dislike as time went on and now Nightcloud just sticks with Crowfeather out of pride. Her love for him faded. Hey, I never said what Nightcloud was doing was the smartest thing to do. And Crowfeather can leave as well since I doubt anyone actually believes he loves Nightcloud and Breezepelt, who has a family of his own now anyway. Really, they're both being idiots as far as I'm concerned. I always figured that the only reason Nighcloud was staying with Crowfeather even after she lost her love for him was because of Breezepelt's sake. But even that didn't work out, Crowfeather treated him just as bad as he treated her, yikes. At this point the only one that really needs the other is Crowfeather, he still needs Nightcloud to look good to his clan, at least that's probably what he thinks. While Nightcloud is still probably with him out of pride? But has there been any confirmation they're still together after the events of OotS? I mean, I don't really see them having another litter, and now that Breezepelt is having kits with Heathertail, plot wise there's no reason for them to stay together. I wonder if someone should ask the Erins or Su...
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