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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 19, 2016 1:46:08 GMT -5
✎ I don't really get why people put almost all of the blame on Crowfeather. While I really dislike Nightcloud, I don't blame her for the entire situation, but for a about half of it. Crowfeather wasn't a good mate nor a good father, but she wasn't a good mate or a good mother either. She may have showed a soft side, but then again, she just recently got what she wanted. She used Crowfeather as much as he used her. I
As for abuse, they all verbally abuse each other. However, I think Nightcloud would be the one to physically abuse Crowfeather. She's showed violent reactions before, like pulling Crowfeather away from Leafpool. It wouldn't surprise me. But Crowfeather doesn't appear to be the one who physically abuses someone, if anything it's verbal.
She can easily leave him. No one is forcing her to stay with him. If he tries to make her stay, I'm pretty sure the others would chase him off or something like that. At this point, she's kinda to blame for her own situation. She can no longer be his mate and be done with it. Instead, she treats him like property.
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Post by pastelpills on Nov 19, 2016 2:56:54 GMT -5
Both are at fault, but imo, Crowfeather is at fault little more.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 19, 2016 3:07:29 GMT -5
Or ya know Night is trying to keep their family together for her son's sake.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 19, 2016 3:09:34 GMT -5
Also I think it's a bit weird, the way you're phraising this, it's like saying that the abuse victim is to blame for staying in an abusive relationship?? Also Crowfeather can just as well leave the relationship too, but hasn't. Then again, he was never really apart of it much anyways, he only cared about looking loyal.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 3:25:02 GMT -5
Or ya know Night is trying to keep their family together for her son's sake. Breezepelt doesn't need his parents to be together anymore though. He's senior warrior aged now so he doesn't really need them to be together anymore for the sake of raising him. They can split up but still be his parents, or at least Nightcloud can be. She doesn't need Crowfeather in order to be apart of Breezepelt's life anymore.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 19, 2016 3:31:23 GMT -5
Or ya know Night is trying to keep their family together for her son's sake. Breezepelt doesn't need his parents to be together anymore though. He's senior warrior aged now so he doesn't really need them to be together anymore for the sake of raising him. They can split up but still be his parents, or at least Nightcloud can be. She doesn't need Crowfeather in order to be apart of Breezepelt's life anymore. The thing is though, we don't even know if they're still together, especially after OotS, we never got a confirmation. Personally, I'd love for Nightcloud to leave Crowfeather, she and Breezepelt deserve better. I was always more into Mudclaw x Nightcloud, instead. Or maybe she'd find a new mate that will love her as much as she loves him, that or she'd stay an independent she-cat, and be a good grandmother to Breezepelt's kits.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 19, 2016 3:59:24 GMT -5
Also I think it's a bit weird, the way you're phraising this, it's like saying that the abuse victim is to blame for staying in an abusive relationship?? Also Crowfeather can just as well leave the relationship too, but hasn't. Then again, he was never really apart of it much anyways, he only cared about looking loyal. And she only cared about forcing someone to love her and having kits. If anything, they're abusive towards each other. But if she honestly has that much of a problem to get mad when he's talking to his ex, then she should take the step to get out. She got what she wanted, but he still has something to prove. I don't understand why people are putting the abuse on one side. Crowfeather is solely receiving the abuse, nor is just Nightcloud. They're doing it to each other.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 19, 2016 4:00:17 GMT -5
Breezepelt doesn't need his parents to be together anymore though. He's senior warrior aged now so he doesn't really need them to be together anymore for the sake of raising him. They can split up but still be his parents, or at least Nightcloud can be. She doesn't need Crowfeather in order to be apart of Breezepelt's life anymore. The thing is though, we don't even know if they're still together, especially after OotS, we never got a confirmation. Personally, I'd love for Nightcloud to leave Crowfeather, she and Breezepelt deserve better. I was always more into Mudclaw x Nightcloud, instead. Or maybe she'd find a new mate that will love her as much as she loves him, that or she'd stay an independent she-cat, and be a good grandmother to Breezepelt's kits. [ ✎ I don't get how someone can love someone like that.]
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 19, 2016 4:16:12 GMT -5
Also I think it's a bit weird, the way you're phraising this, it's like saying that the abuse victim is to blame for staying in an abusive relationship?? Also Crowfeather can just as well leave the relationship too, but hasn't. Then again, he was never really apart of it much anyways, he only cared about looking loyal. And she only cared about forcing someone to love her and having kits. If anything, they're abusive towards each other. But if she honestly has that much of a problem to get mad when he's talking to his ex, then she should take the step to get out. She got what she wanted, but he still has something to prove. I don't understand why people are putting the abuse on one side. Crowfeather is solely receiving the abuse, nor is just Nightcloud. They're doing it to each other. "Force". It was Crowfeather who came to her with the offer of being mates. So I guess Nightcloud wanting to "woo" her mate is apparently "forcing" him to love her. Right? I'm pretty sure she was literally doing what was supposed to come natural to ya know...being mates. Also talking with his ex after all the drama going on, was just not even a good idea. There's a time and place, and that was definitely not the time. Tensions were high, and Lion and Breeze were just beating the crap out of one another, so how is anyone seriously expected to keep calm in a situation like that and handle it in a proper manner? You make it sound like literally all she only wanted from the start to the end was just kits. If that was the case, literally her trying to be romantic with Crowfeather was pointless. Vicky said that Nightcloud did love Crowfeather, but he never once felt the same and was just using her. It's not until later on that Nightcloud realizes this and that's when any real animosity began between them. And it's mostly for Breezepelt's sake, because they tended to argue over him. If anything, the only reason they were still together around the time, was for his sake, and or because Crowfeather still needed them to prove his loyalty.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 19, 2016 4:33:16 GMT -5
I feel like there's a pretty good misconception about Nightcloud's character tbh.
I won't deny that when she ever argued with Crowfeather, it wasn't a two-way verbal abusive street, I also won't argue with the fact that she's not mother of the year.
But she was definitely a better cat before this whole Crowfeather incident, from the little times we've actually seen her. I remember there were moments in the book where she was kind, grateful, and even affectionate toward Crowfeather. I think this was when she did love him, maybe she still does, don't know, but I'm sure back during this time she did still love him.
However, as things went on, Crowfeather's motives just became more obvious. Yes Nightcloud wanted kits, but she's made it obvious she wanted a romantic relationship with a mate, and wanted to raise a family together with someone she loved. Imo, I see nothing wrong with this. However, she obviously did start noticing how Crowfeather is toward her and Breezepelt.
In Leafpool's short side story, Crowfeather says that his clan only began to trust him again because of Nightcloud, and how she had his son. But it's noted that when he talks about this he shows no pride or excitement over it. And in Leafpool's wish, she wonders if Crowfeather was lying when he wished things would go back to how they once were, obviously he wasn't lying. Considering during the border skirmish with Lion and Breeze he was bitter because Leafpool chose her Clan over him.
However with that being said, it truley shows just how far back, and how cold, Crowfeather was toward his new family. Even if he's saved Breezepelt occasionally, eventually its just painfully obvious how things are with them.
The reason Nightcloud argues with him, is over Breezepelt, and him being a terrible mate.
The reasons Breezepelt hates him, is because he's a bad father, and it's spurred on by Nightcloud.
Both issues pretty much just stem from Crowfeather in the end, which is why I personally blame him more out of the two when it comes to Breezepelt's upbringing.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 19, 2016 4:35:37 GMT -5
[ ✎ But she also didn't particularly like him and he does care for her, but he doesn't love her. If she was trying to woo him, then why would the book say force? Considering she's cold to him and fights with him a lot, it's more likely that she tried to force him over woo him.
While yes, it wasn't the best idea, she had no right to physically drag him away. If it was Crowfeather doing that to Nightcloud, everyone would blow up.
I make it sound that way because I barely see any "love" if there was an Ebook detailing what it was like through Nightcloud's view, then maybe. And who wouldn't want someone to love them and their kits. Her main goal would be kits and hey, if if he ended up loving her, then bonus.
Breezepelt is a grown cat. While the books lead more to them being more humanized, there are modern pairings showing that the two do not need to be together for the kit to be fine. She should have broken up with him and raised Breezepelt on her own. If she had done that, then Breezepelt may have turned out differently. But of course there are many "what-ifs."
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 19, 2016 4:45:43 GMT -5
I feel like there's a pretty good misconception about Nightcloud's character tbh. I won't deny that when she ever argued with Crowfeather, it wasn't a two-way verbal abusive street, I also won't argue with the fact that she's not mother of the year. But she was definitely a better cat before this whole Crowfeather incident, from the little times we've actually seen her. I remember there were moments in the book where she was kind, grateful, and even affectionate toward Crowfeather. I think this was when she did love him, maybe she still does, don't know, but I'm sure back during this time she did still love him. However, as things went on, Crowfeather's motives just became more obvious. Yes Nightcloud wanted kits, but she's made it obvious she wanted a romantic relationship with a mate, and wanted to raise a family together with someone she loved. Imo, I see nothing wrong with this. However, she obviously did start noticing how Crowfeather is toward her and Breezepelt. In Leafpool's short side story, Crowfeather says that his clan only began to trust him again because of Nightcloud, and how she had his son. But it's noted that when he talks about this he shows no pride or excitement over it. And in Leafpool's wish, she wonders if Crowfeather was lying when he wished things would go back to how they once were, obviously he wasn't lying. Considering during the border skirmish with Lion and Breeze he was bitter because Leafpool chose her Clan over him. However with that being said, it truley shows just how far back, and how cold, Crowfeather was toward his new family. Even if he's saved Breezepelt occasionally, eventually its just painfully obvious how things are with them. The reason Nightcloud argues with him, is over Breezepelt, and him being a terrible mate. The reasons Breezepelt hates him, is because he's a bad father, and it's spurred on by Nightcloud. Both issues pretty much just stem from Crowfeather in the end, which is why I personally blame him more out of the two when it comes to Breezepelt's upbringing. [ ✎ But there are so many things to bring into consideration. If anything, Crowfeather was forced to pick her. I don't really agree with that because it's force-mating two cats. We do have to agree WindClan is pretty messed up under Onestar's rule and I don't see it too far fetched for them to say: You need to take a mate from WindClan. Surely someone must have caught on when he asked to be named after a RiverClan cat as well, potentially leading to this issue.
And again, I'm not saying he isn't innocent, but Nightcloud could have done something differently and potentially changed the outcome of things on her own. Instead, she argued in front of her kit. You'd think she'd want to pull Crowfeather aside and do it somewhere else. The fact she doesn't shows she's not even close to mother material. She could have had it to where Breezepelt doesn't hate his father, but dislikes. She does not help and further creates a negative environment. So she is equally to blame. There have been plenty of mothers who raised their kits from absent or somewhat absent fathers and the kits have turned out fine. And there have been plenty of cats who have been involved in their kit's upbringing and it be totally disastrous.
I'm not saying wanting kits is wrong, but sometimes it doesn't happen and sometimes it shouldn't. Leopardstar apparently wanted them and she never had them. Nightcloud could have coped and instead she became desperate. Her desperation is what stems from the issues. She had choices, and her choices led to what happened. She reacted instead of acted. ]
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 19, 2016 4:46:25 GMT -5
[ ✎ But she also didn't particularly like him and he does care for her, but he doesn't love her. If she was trying to woo him, then why would the book say force? Considering she's cold to him and fights with him a lot, it's more likely that she tried to force him over woo him.
While yes, it wasn't the best idea, she had no right to physically drag him away. If it was Crowfeather doing that to Nightcloud, everyone would blow up.
I make it sound that way because I barely see any "love" if there was an Ebook detailing what it was like through Nightcloud's view, then maybe. And who wouldn't want someone to love them and their kits. Her main goal would be kits and hey, if if he ended up loving her, then bonus.
Breezepelt is a grown cat. While the books lead more to them being more humanized, there are modern pairings showing that the two do not need to be together for the kit to be fine. She should have broken up with him and raised Breezepelt on her own. If she had done that, then Breezepelt may have turned out differently. But of course there are many "what-ifs."
I personally think that some of the guidebooks did a pretty bad job wording their relationship. "Force" with Crowfeather, imo, seems more like "desperate". He was desperate to get his clan to trust him again, so he chose Nightcloud, and offered to her mate under false pretenses. He was using her. On the other hand, it can be said that Nightcloud probably didn't like Crowfeather much, I'm going off of theorizing for this one, but I think this stems over the whole Mudclaw revolt. Nightcloud was one of Mudclaw's stronger supporters, on the other hand Crowfeather supported Onestar, and his mother even became deputy. So I think them not getting along at first, before the whole mate incident makes sense. But you also need to take into account that feelings can change. Squirreflight and Bramblestar didn't get along at first, neither did, (SPOILERS) Pebbleshine and Hawkwing. My guess is that Nightcloud eventually did fall in love with Crowfeather, like Vicky said, and because of this, wanted to try and make the relationship work. So she tried to make him fall for her, like any mate would want, it just didn't work, and she didn't realize this until later on. I'll agree with you on that, I don't think it was the right thing, but I do think it was understandable, considering the circumstances. It's also pretty ironic, because a moment before she was demanding to know if Crowfeather even cared that his son got hurt. And he says nothing. Then along comes Leafpool, saying something similar, and Crowfeather actually does react, when she's hurt, not Breezepelt, and Nightcloud got defensive about it. So, imo, I can understand her actions, even if I don't approve of them, let alone Crowfeather's. I personally would like to see an e-book on Nightcloud, her or Silverstream and Half-Moon. Would be more interesting than the content the Erins are dishing out now. And again, personally, I'd like to see that, more like I would have preferred to see that instead. Independent mother Nightcloud. It's rather ironic, considering that was more or less what we actually did got since Crowfeather was barely involved in his son's life unless he was forced into it.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 19, 2016 4:54:15 GMT -5
I feel like there's a pretty good misconception about Nightcloud's character tbh. I won't deny that when she ever argued with Crowfeather, it wasn't a two-way verbal abusive street, I also won't argue with the fact that she's not mother of the year. But she was definitely a better cat before this whole Crowfeather incident, from the little times we've actually seen her. I remember there were moments in the book where she was kind, grateful, and even affectionate toward Crowfeather. I think this was when she did love him, maybe she still does, don't know, but I'm sure back during this time she did still love him. However, as things went on, Crowfeather's motives just became more obvious. Yes Nightcloud wanted kits, but she's made it obvious she wanted a romantic relationship with a mate, and wanted to raise a family together with someone she loved. Imo, I see nothing wrong with this. However, she obviously did start noticing how Crowfeather is toward her and Breezepelt. In Leafpool's short side story, Crowfeather says that his clan only began to trust him again because of Nightcloud, and how she had his son. But it's noted that when he talks about this he shows no pride or excitement over it. And in Leafpool's wish, she wonders if Crowfeather was lying when he wished things would go back to how they once were, obviously he wasn't lying. Considering during the border skirmish with Lion and Breeze he was bitter because Leafpool chose her Clan over him. However with that being said, it truley shows just how far back, and how cold, Crowfeather was toward his new family. Even if he's saved Breezepelt occasionally, eventually its just painfully obvious how things are with them. The reason Nightcloud argues with him, is over Breezepelt, and him being a terrible mate. The reasons Breezepelt hates him, is because he's a bad father, and it's spurred on by Nightcloud. Both issues pretty much just stem from Crowfeather in the end, which is why I personally blame him more out of the two when it comes to Breezepelt's upbringing. [ ✎ But there are so many things to bring into consideration. If anything, Crowfeather was forced to pick her. I don't really agree with that because it's force-mating two cats. We do have to agree WindClan is pretty messed up under Onestar's rule and I don't see it too far fetched for them to say: You need to take a mate from WindClan. Surely someone must have caught on when he asked to be named after a RiverClan cat as well, potentially leading to this issue.
And again, I'm not saying he isn't innocent, but Nightcloud could have done something differently and potentially changed the outcome of things on her own. Instead, she argued in front of her kit. You'd think she'd want to pull Crowfeather aside and do it somewhere else. The fact she doesn't shows she's not even close to mother material. She could have had it to where Breezepelt doesn't hate his father, but dislikes. She does not help and further creates a negative environment. So she is equally to blame. There have been plenty of mothers who raised their kits from absent or somewhat absent fathers and the kits have turned out fine. And there have been plenty of cats who have been involved in their kit's upbringing and it be totally disastrous.
I'm not saying wanting kits is wrong, but sometimes it doesn't happen and sometimes it shouldn't. Leopardstar apparently wanted them and she never had them. Nightcloud could have coped and instead she became desperate. Her desperation is what stems from the issues. She had choices, and her choices led to what happened. She reacted instead of acted. ] It's an interesting theory, but I think it's rather impossible due to the side stories and their outcomes of Crowfeather's actions. Where he's talking about Nightcloud, how the Clan trusts him again, even when he's intertwining his tails with Nightcloud at the border, playing the role of mate with toward her. However, I dot think your theory might actually fall more on Heathertail and Breezepelt. Although I don't mind the pairing, I just think it's odd that Breezepelt just happened to end up with Onestar's daughter, after Onestar defended him in Dw'S. Considering the circumstances, to me, Nightcloud did a better job than Crowfeather, even if it wasn't the best job. But I do agree, that things could have been different. It makes me wonder what's going through her head, it's why she's an interesting character in my eyes. I just hope the Erins will eventually elaborate on her more, and confirm to us whether or not she's will with Crowfeather. My guess is that at this point, not really lol. Leopardstar was a leader though, and from what I remember, it's usually frowned upon for she-cat leaders to have kits. She just thought that maybe Tigerstar's new order would change something like that. And it obviously didn't. At some point she pretty much full-heartedly decided to dedicate her life to her clan, imo it's better that way. On the other hand Nightcloud is fully capable of having kits, no rules holding her back, the only thing she couldn't do was hook up with a cat from another clan. I personally had hoped her and Mudclaw would have most likely been a thing instead, but his death pretty much ended the possibility of that happening. And then along came Crowfeather, oh boy.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 19, 2016 7:08:25 GMT -5
[ ✎ Eh, you never know. Oh God, HeatherxBreeze is another story..
Eh, I feel like neither did the best job, if anything, Heathertail did a better job of calming and keeping Breezepelt in check. Nightcloud always came across as paranoid, clingy, possessive, and envious. I feel like she and Mudclaw would have been better, so I agree with that.
But Leopardstar could have wanted kits before she was leader as well. I agree it was better how it was, I feel like she would have been like Rainflower with Oakheart and kind of a repeat of Crookedstar with Silverstream.
I also think that the Erins should come out with an Ebook that isn't bias to either cat and show us what the relationship is really like. But that won't happen, unfortunately.]
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 10:11:12 GMT -5
Or ya know Night is trying to keep their family together for her son's sake. How is Nightcloud even trying? Because we have only seen her giving Breezepelt bad parenting examples and being a jerk to Leafpool. We don't have proof of that.
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Post by 𝕡𝕖𝕡𝕡𝕖𝕣𝕞𝕚𝕟𝕥 on Nov 19, 2016 10:31:35 GMT -5
Nightcloud is awful, but she wasn't the abuser. In fact, Crowfeather's behavior seemed to have brought out the worst in her. The way she raised Breezepelt was probably an act of retaliation against Crowfeather. Both are at fault, but Crowfeather acted as the main abuser.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 19, 2016 10:50:14 GMT -5
Nightcloud is awful, but she wasn't the abuser. In fact, Crowfeather's behavior seemed to have brought out the worst in her. The way she raised Breezepelt was probably an act of retaliation against Crowfeather. Both are at fault, but Crowfeather acted as the main abuser. [ ✎ From what I remember, Nightcloud just started the arguments verbally while Crowfeather did something stupid to start them. I don't see him as the main abuser. I see them both equally doing it verbally, but with what I remember, Nightcloud has showed signs of potentially physically abusing him. Dragging him from Leafpool is an example.]
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 19, 2016 14:13:51 GMT -5
Or ya know Night is trying to keep their family together for her son's sake. How is Nightcloud even trying? Because we have only seen her giving Breezepelt bad parenting examples and being a jerk to Leafpool. We don't have proof of that. Did you forget when Breezepaw got hurt, and Leafpool treated him, and Nightcloud was down right grateful for her help? Nightcloud wasn't ALWAYS the way she was now. It's because of her relationship with Crowfeather, and the family's reputation thanks to him, that things pretty much went down hill.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 15:00:31 GMT -5
How is Nightcloud even trying? Because we have only seen her giving Breezepelt bad parenting examples and being a jerk to Leafpool. We don't have proof of that. Did you forget when Breezepaw got hurt, and Leafpool treated him, and Nightcloud was down right grateful for her help? Nightcloud wasn't ALWAYS the way she was now. It's because of her relationship with Crowfeather, and the family's reputation thanks to him, that things pretty much went down hill. Because I actually posted a thing about that earlier about Nightcloud. So no, I didn't. But that still doesn't show she was trying to put the family together, just that she was concerned about her son. Crowfeather was worried too. You must have missed my thread.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 15:04:01 GMT -5
Nightcloud used him too, though. She's no better than Crowfeather. I'm only giving Nightcloud a pass because it may be true that she did change because of what Crowfeather has done. However, she wanted to make him love her, which may also mean that she knew he never loved her and still loved Leafpool. Keep in mind that this also happened right after Leafpool dumped him, so Crowfeather was up for grabs. Of course he won't get over Leafpool in just a few days. He needs time, and I think Nightcloud may have known that since it was stated she tried to make him love her.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 15:07:22 GMT -5
I mean, I understand that Nightcloud was upset, but she should have been a better parent to Breezepelt. Fighting with Crowfeather, dragging him away from Leafpool shows a sign of aggression and possibly even physical abuse and she argued with her mate. Breezepelt was clearly in stress, and even Lionblaze felt sorry for him. Crowfeather may be a terrible father, but Nightcloud is no better. She didn't even give him a chance to prove himself. She just poisoned her son's mind about his dad. Nightcloud is not a very good parent either. She's also pretty bad.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 15:09:46 GMT -5
Crowfeather and Nightcloud's relationship and character reminds me exactly of my parents relationship. They seem to hate each other and all they do is argue, but for some odd reason they are still together. And since Nightcloud reminds me of my mother, I am biased to not feel sorry for her. I don't hate my mom, but she's seriously hard to get along with for the same reasons Nightcloud has been shown to be. That's why I could never end up feeling sorry for this character.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 19, 2016 17:11:31 GMT -5
Nightcloud used him too, though. She's no better than Crowfeather. I'm only giving Nightcloud a pass because it may be true that she did change because of what Crowfeather has done. However, she wanted to make him love her, which may also mean that she knew he never loved her and still loved Leafpool. Keep in mind that this also happened right after Leafpool dumped him, so Crowfeather was up for grabs. Of course he won't get over Leafpool in just a few days. He needs time, and I think Nightcloud may have known that since it was stated she tried to make him love her. Can we please destroy the idea that Nightcloud used Crowfeather, because she didn't, at least that was not even her intial intent. She wanted to have kits, she wanted to have a romantic relationship with a mate, she thought Crowfeather would give her those things. He was the one that offered her to be his mate in the first place, and Nightcloud did love him at some point. It's only when she realized he was just using them that she became how she did, and when they'd feud over Breezepelt. The only one with the intention to use the other from the very start was Crowfeather. As I pointed out already, if Nightcloud only wanted kits there would have been no reason for her to be so affectionate toward Crowfeather, and trying to make him fall for her like she did him. Nightcloud also showed no implication of knowing anything about Crowfeather's past love life, she doesn't find out anything until Hollyleaf reveals it at the gathering. No cat knew until the 3 found out, and the only other cat that knew was Squirrelflight. It's literally normal to want your partner to love you if you're in a relationship that's the equivalent to dating/marriage. It's normal to want to have kits, in this said relationship too. I've seen people argue and say that it's not creepy for Bumble to want to have kits with Dovewing, or Dovewing wanting to have a future with Tigerheart and having his kits one day. This is normal thinking, normal behavior, there is nothing wrong with wanting to have kits with your mate, or wanting them to feel the same way as you do. A relationship is supposed to be mutually beneficial on an equal level. Similar to Gray and Millie situation, only one side was actually putting real effort into the relationship, and that was Nighcloud. While Crowfeather wanted to use her, and Breezepelt, from the start. And Crowfeather had moons to get over Leafpool, but made it obvious he was still bitter when Lion and Breeze were fighting on the border.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 19, 2016 17:17:48 GMT -5
I mean, I understand that Nightcloud was upset, but she should have been a better parent to Breezepelt. Fighting with Crowfeather, dragging him away from Leafpool shows a sign of aggression and possibly even physical abuse and she argued with her mate. Breezepelt was clearly in stress, and even Lionblaze felt sorry for him. Crowfeather may be a terrible father, but Nightcloud is no better. She didn't even give him a chance to prove himself. She just poisoned her son's mind about his dad. Nightcloud is not a very good parent either. She's also pretty bad. Crowfeather is worse than Nightcloud. There is literal proof in the books of this. Breezepelt doesn't blame Nightcloud for anything, after all the drama came in the open. He blames Crowfeather, and rightfully so. Nightcloud was the only parent of the two to actually give him something at least resembling a type of love, Crwofeather gave nothing. Nadda, 0%. Nightcloud would argue with Crowfeather and it usually concerned Breezepelt, because he wouldn't put more faith in his son, let alone acnowledge him. He showed no pride or excitement when Breezepelt was born, nor in being mates with Nightcloud. Nightcloud's anger toward him, imo, is justifiable. Also saying that Nightcloud physically abused Crow possibly would be no different than saying the same when Crowfeather dragged Breezepelt off of Lionblaze, is that implied physical abuse then? Crowfeather also "poisoned" Breezepelt's mind with blatant xenophobia, literally talking down on ThunderClan, and encouraging Breezepelt to hate cats with different blood. How is that any better if not worse? At least what Nightcloud was doing held of candle toward the truth, Crowfeather is a rotten father and mate, that's fact. Even if Nightcloud didn't have an influence there it doesn't change the fact that Crowfeather blatantly neglected his son, and was the source of the majority of arguments with Nightcloud.
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Post by Basement Cat on Nov 19, 2016 17:54:57 GMT -5
Ah, here is that quality cat forum discourse I'm looking for. 10/10.
Okay, here's the thing. Crowfeather is a terrible parent. Nightcloud is a terrible parent. Their personal problems utterly screwed up their child and they have never communicated and talked things out. They are a disfunctional couple who would be better off ending things.
And you are correct, anon. Nightcloud COULD leave. But, so could Crowfeather. Nightcloud is not someone to be pitied in that means. But she isn't 100% to blame either. The same goes with Crowfeather. He is not someone to be pitied and gushed over. But he isn't 100% to blame either.
The fault lies in both. Blaming one party means one is forgetting the care, or lack thereof of the other party. This isn't a straightforward pairing. It is messy, blurry, and the relationship is not a happy one. If anything, Breezepelt is the one getting screwed over, and it is hard to sympathize with him because he has done aweful things as well.
TL; DR Version:
Crowfeather is not 100% innocent. Nightcloud is not 100% innocent. Both are to blame, and both made a conscious choice to maintain their unhappy relationship.
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Post by wheeledwarrior on Nov 19, 2016 19:08:52 GMT -5
I agree that Nightcloud can leave, but where would she go? I don't think she's young at this point in the books, so I'm not sure she would take another mate… And then she would just be alone…
And I think people are forgetting is that the person that's most responsible for Breezepelt’s actions is Breezepelt himself. Children may be influenced by the environment they are in, and their parents, but it is often times their conscious decision to follow a path.
For example, Crookedstar had his mother abandon him and his parents basically divorce when he was very young. He also found out later that he was part of a curse, and that it may have been his destiny to keep it going. Yet he chose to be an upstanding and loyal cat, enough to become leader of his clan. He could have become like Mapleshade and become bloodthirsty, but instead he chose not to.
Bluestar had a horrible past, with her father not paying attention to her and most of her family dying when she was very young. Yet she didn't turn on her Clan and was able to get over the grief enough to lead it, and save it from those who would cause it trouble. Even with the illness is the end of her life, she was still consciously choosing not to become bloodthirsty or violent, when she very well could have while she was mentally weak.
Even Tallstar, who lost his father at a young age and had a mother who did not care for him much, could have lost himself in revenge. Yet he didn't, and became leader of his clan.
Those characters chose to lead honest lives despite having bad parental relationships or just bad pasts in general. If they can do that, then there's no reason why Breezepelt could not have chosen to be loyal to his Clan… In fact, if you take this angle, Dovewing’s Silence makes a lot more sense, because the leaders are angry at the former Dark Forest allies because they had a choice in whether or not they could join…
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 19, 2016 23:02:44 GMT -5
Ah, here is that quality cat forum discourse I'm looking for. 10/10. Okay, here's the thing. Crowfeather is a terrible parent. Nightcloud is a terrible parent. Their personal problems utterly screwed up their child and they have never communicated and talked things out. They are a disfunctional couple who would be better off ending things. And you are correct, anon. Nightcloud COULD leave. But, so could Crowfeather. Nightcloud is not someone to be pitied in that means. But she isn't 100% to blame either. The same goes with Crowfeather. He is not someone to be pitied and gushed over. But he isn't 100% to blame either. The fault lies in both. Blaming one party means one is forgetting the care, or lack thereof of the other party. This isn't a straightforward pairing. It is messy, blurry, and the relationship is not a happy one. If anything, Breezepelt is the one getting screwed over, and it is hard to sympathize with him because he has done aweful things as well. TL; DR Version: Crowfeather is not 100% innocent. Nightcloud is not 100% innocent. Both are to blame, and both made a conscious choice to maintain their unhappy relationship. Nightcloud technically got what she wanted. She has less to lose if she leaves, while Crowfeather kinda stays because the Clan is full of jerks. It makes more sense for her to leave over Crowfeather. Also, can you please not call me anon? .-. I know you don't like me, but I still call you by your name. @ Wheeled, she could just be without a mate. She has Breezepelt, Heathertail, and her grandkits. She has her Clanmates. She doesn't need a mate to be happy.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 20, 2016 8:54:22 GMT -5
New headcanon, Nightcloud and Breezepelt leave WindClan for SkyClan. That'll solve everything, since they both deserve better.
Bonus: Macgyver and Nightcloud become a thing, and Macgyver becomes a proper father role-model for Breezepelt.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 20, 2016 14:15:47 GMT -5
New headcanon, Nightcloud and Breezepelt leave WindClan for SkyClan. That'll solve everything, since they both deserve better. Bonus: Macgyver and Nightcloud become a thing, and Macgyver becomes a proper father role-model for Breezepelt. After what Breezepelt has done, he should be banished or killed.
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