#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 13, 2016 18:37:08 GMT -5
I've seen this be used many times both in fiction and in real life (like how some people will defend the Nazis), but do you think this excuse justifies cats like Blackstar or Clawface or even Fern Leaf?
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Nov 13, 2016 18:43:00 GMT -5
No I don't think it does. There is a huge difference between following orders, and doing the right thing. Blackfoot was just as hateful towards kittypets/half-Clan cats as Tigerstar, and still showed some very huge bias against them later as Blackstar (even if he didn't do cruel things, but it goes to show you his hateful bias when his own deputy and warriors were watching Berrykit in that trap just for being a kittypet).
It is one thing to follow orders, but it is another when you are carrying out horrible things while doing so. If people actually use this excuse, you are excusing people--like the Nazis as you've mentioned--for the horrible things they did. There is no excuse, orders or not.
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Post by mEmE on Nov 13, 2016 20:36:49 GMT -5
Depends on your point of view, ethically justified? Probably not.
But the Erin's put this series way too lightly, which makes sense because it is a kids series.
In real life like the law or the military, orders go above everything else, no exceptions, you might be hated from everyone you know, but you still have to show and withhold the standard procedure, orders, and discipline.
So it really depends on your point of view especially when you're asking for justification. Justification is a very vague and complicated thing
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 13, 2016 20:55:30 GMT -5
Imo, not really, one of the reasons I don't like Blackstar is because of what he did. But I have seen people used this excuse a lot, however I can also see where it's a gray area and debatable. So probably comes down to one's pov.
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Post by Mistybreeze on Nov 13, 2016 22:41:03 GMT -5
Imo, not really, one of the reasons I don't like Blackstar is because of what he did. But I have seen people used this excuse a lot, however I can also see where it's a gray area and debatable. So probably comes down to one's pov. I think in Blackstar's case, he actually was prejudiced against outsiders/Half-Clan cats but gradually became more tolerant as he aged. |
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Post by Sablemoon on Nov 14, 2016 0:54:44 GMT -5
No, I don't think it does. That just says to me that you're willing to turn a blind eye and not think about the consequences of your actions, although the effect certainly varies if it's not exactly dangerous or life threatening.
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Post by wheeledwarrior on Nov 14, 2016 15:10:56 GMT -5
No, it doesn't, even though in real life there are situations where orders go above everything else... But one also has to take into account that Tigerstar and Brokenstar (two of the cats that had followers with that excuse) were very good at brainwashing people or otherwise swaying them to their side. Once a person is brainwashed, the other can make them do whatever they want, and basically warp their mind to commit horrible acts... It's why people like that are seen as more sympathetic... And even though there's some acts that are still questionable, (e.g. Berrykit in the fox trap), some of the cats like Blackstar really did redeem themselves... I think this gives more credit to the idea that they were brainwashed by Tigerstar/Brokenstar, and that once they were gone, they were able to act based on their true beliefs...
Also, there's the whole "the Clan leader's word is law" part of the Code, which is basically one giant command to follow orders... With that in the Code, everyone could potentially have that excuse for everything.
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Post by kinkajou on Nov 14, 2016 21:06:40 GMT -5
No
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2016 15:20:49 GMT -5
... to be honest, with Blackstar, I'm just not sure by now. There have been so many mixed messages from his birth to his death. In Yellowfang's Secret he just seemed blindly obedient, and showed guilt when Yellowfang was exiled- yet not even a moon later he murders an elder and is called a "bully with no brains" and a "strong but not clever fighter". Rock said he "had" to follow in Tigerstar's pawsteps, while "refused to apologize for ShadowClan's role in the clans' near-end".
Really, looking back... Blackstar was raised in a pretty ruthless ShadowClan from the start. A lot of people don't realize that even though ShadowClan weren't "all bad", the fact is, they've been quick to kill for generations- and maybe even longer before that. They just aren't afraid to kill cats outside their clan. When Hal was slaughtered right in the middle of camp, no one batted an eye. When they were having quarrels with WindClan, it wasn't a "ThunderClanlike" "Darn those annoying furballs, let's go talk to their leader and tell them to quit it". They were ready to destroy them! Even the senior warriors during Cedarstar's reign were wanting to drive WindClan out.
I partially agree with Yellowfang that Brokenstar was very manipulative and could make them believe anything. But what she refused to acknowledge was the fact that ShadowClan was already in prime shape to turn into a war factory. Time and time again in YS, all Brokenstar had to do was make something up, have the clan believe it and want revenge, and then say "ok then let's go beat up ThunderClan". And they did.
That's literally all he did. If the clan hadn't been so quick to get revenge, Brokenstar would be powerless. His leadership depended on the clan's thirst for revenge and his capacity to make up enough stories to keep fueling that thirst.
So though I do think it was pretty wrong what he did... at the same time, he was no different than most of the other warriors in his time. He grew up in a generation that not only was strictly loyal to their leaders- but strictly loyal to those who could give them revenge. Blackstar probably saw nothing wrong with what he was doing- because why should he? Was ShadowClan mad at Brokenstar for killing cats from other clans? Were they angry that he had "forced" them to drive out WindClan? Nope, they were only upset that some cats in SC were thriving while others were starving. In fact, if SC truly regretted their decision to drive out WC, why'd they try to drive them out a second time? Any apologies SC ever said was how their leaders harmed their own clan- not anyone else's.
So though I don't condone Blackstar, and it was no doubt morally wrong in my eyes- from what we see of ShadowClan and how they were in the olden days... they just had a culture that didn't give a crap about anyone outside their clan. And that's a very hard reality for most readers- who are used to the accepting, helping culture of ThunderClan and especially Firestar. And culture is very hard to break. It's psychological, and you can't just get rid of it by telling someone to reject it. It deeply affects your view on how the world works. Telling someone to forget a culture is like telling someone to forget their native language. It's just simply always there, even if they don't speak it.
ShadowClan improved after that era of course, but even now, generations later, they are still quick to stick to themselves and reject involvement with the other clans- and deny any negative involvement. And that's not really surprising tbh.
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