|
Post by x -- ʙʀɪᴀʀʜᴇᴀʀᴛ on Nov 6, 2016 21:43:40 GMT -5
Right now, I'm really conflicted on her. In the past, I've gone from hating her guts, to being downright smitten with her, to not caring about her at all, and now I'm just... I dunno, I want to make up my mind once and for all. So how about it? Let's talk about Hollyleaf and see if I can form a more solid opinion, hmm? Feel free to ask me questions and rant about your own opinions on her~
|
|
|
Post by sparklepaw on Nov 7, 2016 22:34:39 GMT -5
I too, have had conflicting feelings on Hollyleaf. Initially after the Power of Three, I really hated her. She grew more annoying throughout the series and then when she ruined everything at the end and tried to kill Leafpool (not that Leafpool is a saint or anything, but I think karma has come back to her well enough by this point), I was glad to see her gone.
When I heard from a friend who had read The Power of Three years ago and we were talking about Hollyleaf, he told me about how she was actually alive and I wanted to scream!
Well, after finishing OotS and Hollyleaf's Journey, I really loved her and felt so bad about hating her! I think what sealed it for me is when I read the entire Warriors series through yet again.
I realized that upon re-reading PoT,I felt sorry for her throughout almost the entire thing. Once you know what is going to happen and everything that happens, it honestly makes reading Hollyleaf's place throughout that arc very painful. She is so sure that she is part of this prophecy, and everything she knows and believes in is ultimately crushed. It's sad, and I still hate her for going off the handle like that, but at the same time, it is saddening in itself. She is so full of hurt and rage she feels that ruining everything despite killing Ashfur is the best option. She clearly had some mental issues from the start; and she simply wasn't equipped to handle all of the pressure and trials that were thrown her way.
But she did try to make things right in OotS, but at the same time makes it clear that she feels that she cannot ever fully redeem herself or be forgiven for what she had done.
All-in-all, I like Hollyleaf quite a bit. She is an extremely interesting character and has many flaws, making her a very real and relatable character. I too continue to have mixed feelings, but I have never gone back to disliking her.
|
|
|
Post by Dancing_Totodile on Nov 7, 2016 22:58:27 GMT -5
I like her. I feel sorry for her.
|
|
|
Post by Woofzie on Nov 7, 2016 23:00:25 GMT -5
I hate her in PoT. She was disguisting for me and I was reeeeeally happy when she 'died'. But I admit it, I liked her in The Forgotten Warrior. She developed very well, he changed so much and her maturity level was amazing. Sad that she died, but honestly I prefer it in that way. She died like a hero, well developed and so... if she was still alive she could just pass in the background by now, and even ruin the character one more timd. The Erins just love to do that.
|
|
|
Post by sparklepaw on Nov 7, 2016 23:14:44 GMT -5
Oh yes, I definitely concur. Like said, it was sad when she died, and at first I wished she hadn't- but the more I mulled it over in my head, it was a perfect way for her story to end. She died a hero, whereas if they had kept her alive they either could have potentially ruined her character or she would have simply become obsolete until she died a death that would likely be unmemorable.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2016 23:23:45 GMT -5
I hate her in PoT. She was disguisting for me and I was reeeeeally happy when she 'died'. But I admit it, I liked her in The Forgotten Warrior. She developed very well, he changed so much and her maturity level was amazing. Sad that she died, but honestly I prefer it in that way. She died like a hero, well developed and so... if she was still alive she could just pass in the background by now, and even ruin the character one more timd. The Erins just love to do that. That's why I'm kind of happy that Hollyleaf is gone. I really love her, and I don't want the Erins to just throw her into the background or overuse her so much. My only problem with Hollyleaf is that they excused her crimes for killing Ashfur in TUG, and what she did was not an "accident". She killed Ashfur on purpose and knew what she was doing. However, Hollyleaf felt remorse and I can forgive her. She even learned from that mistake and let Sol go with a warning and didn't kill him, because Ashfur's death reminded her of the guilt she will go through again if she kills Sol.
Hollyleaf's death was needed. And besides, the real truth about Ashfur may come out too, if she lived. So I'm glad she died and she wasn't just thrown into the background.
|
|
|
|
Post by sparklepaw on Nov 8, 2016 1:01:44 GMT -5
If you want, you could see my hollyleaf essay collection. I'd like to!
|
|
Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
|
Post by Holly Snow on Nov 8, 2016 20:50:12 GMT -5
There are 4 essays that I wrote about Hollyleaf on the forums. I will try to put them in a logical order. They are als o going in separate posts.
Hollyleaf FTW
There is no one in this world that I have greater sympathy for than a politician. As a politician you have to build yourself up in a pleasing way to the public. You must be honest and moral to the people you are expected to lead. To be able to lead you must be cunning and assertive. The wish to lead comes with ambition and pride is often times an attribute of the ambitious. You must be able to appeal to an image the people wish for you to represent. I could go on describing however basically you have to be perfect in the eyes of the people. However the moment that image begins to crack and it turns out you are not as perfect as people thought you were, you are cast down from power, humiliated, and scrutinized. The people who once cheered your name now sneer it and whisper of your faults behind your back or to your face. More often than not it is impossible to ever recover from what has happened. Mainly because the people you once lead no longer trust you. Why should they? They have been deceived. Why should they trust a liar? This is not an essay to defend people like this. People who deceive should not be in power however this is a concept that reminds me a lot of the once reviled character, Hollyleaf.
Ah, Hollyleaf, you are quite the fandom waifu. Though once a villain Hollyleaf has become repentant and she has won over the hearts of many fans. Some like me have always liked her. Others once disliked her because of what she did in Sunrise and her awful attitude in the third arc, but after Hollyleaf's role in the fourth arc they grew to like her. So much so that She is a favourite on the majority of fans lists. However some still dislike her. Try as people might Hollyleaf fans cannot convince her haters to like her. So what is it about Hollyleaf that some people just cannot forgive?
Hollyleaf had a lot going for her from a young age. She was born into clan royalty. Her grandfather was Firestar hero of the clans, She was related to Snadstorm and Cloudtail, the best hunters in the clans, her parents were Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw, also heros of the clans and a bit of an "it" couple, and her aunt was the medicine cat. Talk about a strong legacy. She also had the personality of a natural leader. According to her brothers she was always bossing them and others around and acting arrogant. She also unconsciously walked a step ahead of them like a leader. All her judgments were based on the warrior code which she followed like a religion and many praised her for this. The warrior code is held in high regard among the clan cats similar to how in America we hold the constitution in high regard or to how religious people will hold their code of honors in high regard. She thought threw everything she did to the point that her plans and analysis' were near perfection. She thought about things so much that she would annoy her peers who would prefer just to jump into things. In Dark River she averted a war among the clans by disobeying her elders and the Warrior Code and talking to Riverclan's leader to assure that the idea of Riverclan "losing its territory" was just a rumor and the other clans were just over reacting and need not prepare for war. She figured this out when she was the equivalent of a ten to thirteen year old. Even Firestar and Brambleclaw who are known for they are farsighted perception of events did not come to the conclusion that Hollyleaf did. This showed Hollyleaf's intelligence at a very young age and she is in her prime at this point. She stole the show in my opinion for that book. Which may be surprising since I have mentioned that lionxheather was my favourite forbidden romance and was more endearing than lionxcinder. She was also a part of a prophecy that promised an important destiny. Is it really any surprise that by the beginning of Outcast Hollyleaf was considering leadership as a possible path?
Hollyleaf's greatest strengths were displayed in Dark River. However her greatest weakness and the beginning of her downfall began here too. The reason Hollyleaf was so successful was because she stayed true to what she believed to be right. Her personal code of honor had to be perfect with no room for inaccuracy and this was her weakness. She based it on the warrior code and this would prove problematic. The world is not divided into right wrong or black and white. The world is in shades of grey. After Lionblaze's disastrous code breaking affair with Heathertail, Hollyleaf saw how disastrous disobeying some of the vexing rules, like not having strong friendships with outsiders. So she forced her personal code of honor to be stricter and less lenient with bending from it. She stopped being friends with Willowshine because of this. In Eclipse Windclan attacked Thunderclan because they let in "too many outsiders" which was against the code. They were also attacked because Thunderclan was bossy and nosy. This convinced Hollyleaf it was right to be stricter with her morals. In Long Shadows Shadowclan completely abandoned clan morals and they nearly collapsed. Which made Hollyleaf even stricter. She was so certain of herself and committed that Jayfeather mentioned that he was almost afraid of her. This change would prove disastrous later on.
The end of Long Shadows began Hollyleaf's fall from grace. Ashfur by this point had descended into emotional madness so intent on hurting Squirrelflight that he did not care what the consequences would be. He trapped her and her brothers on a burning log so that he could throw them into the firey hollow bellow. Losing her children would be like him losing her love, according to Ashfur. Squirrelflight was too weak to fight Ashfur off so to save them she told Ashfur that the three were not really her children and that killing them meant nothing because they were not hers. This proves how dumb Ashfur is since he seriously believed that she didn't love them. However she gave him something better. She gave him the knowledge of a scandal that would rattle Squirrelflight’s entire family’s reputation. All because of a secret she kept. It would be all her fault. For some that is worse than death. What was worse is that he was going to tell all the clans the secret at the gathering only a few days away. No one wanted this to happen. After many failed attempts of persuasion a mysterious murderer silenced him forever. This murderer was Hollyleaf. Hollyleaf killed Ashfur because her reputation was at stake. Remember, she wanted to be leader. If the secret was exposed she would lose her legacy. She would no longer be the daughter of the Respected Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw, she would be an orphan whose lineage was unclear raised by a liar. The clan would not want a leader like that, Sure Firestar was a kittypet but every now and then he still got trouble because of that fact. Thunderclan would not accept aleader of impure lineage any more than pre civil rights era America would have accepted a remotely African American president. Her reputation would crumble. Another problem was that she was no longer related to Firestar which meant she no longer had a magnificent destiny in store. This was also bad. Furthermore deciption like this was against Hollyleaf’s personal code of honor and the warrior code. This was bad. Ashfur was hurting his clan by telling the secret. Not to mention he had committed treason before. He deserved to be killed, he needed to be killed. So here is the oxymoron of it all. Hollyleaf killed Ashfur to punish him for breaking the warrior code, to protect her reputation and preserve the secret, and to protect the warrior code. Despite the fact killing Ashfur was against the warrior code, and more disastrous to Hollyleaf’s reputation than the secret. She was breaking what she was trying to protect. Another thing to be mentioned is that Ashfur was and emotional wreck seeking only vengeance. This will be important later. Hollyleaf, Jayfeather, and Lionblaze wanted to know who their true parents were so they went searching for them. They were devastated because they were no longer a part of the prophecy. It freaked Lionblaze out because he had Tigerstar lumming over his shoulder however that is a story for another time. They were relieved a little when they found out Leafpool was their mother since that meant they were still a part of the prophecy however that did not fix everything. Their birth was alleged to say the least. Medicine cats are not supposed to have children. That is against the warrior code. The three were born, then it was lied about, which hurt Hollyleaf’s conscience even more. She never should have been born. She couldn’t be leader if this got out so when Sol came around she was highly susceptible to him. His sultry voice and calm authoritive demeanor hypnotized Hollyleaf. He promised her a destiny of protecting the warrior code by basically being a terrorist. Her willingness to do this is notable because it shows how much she is devolving Lionblaze and Jayfeather saw through this and got her out of his influence however it really did not matter. She was too angry about the destruction of the code. Then they find out that their father is Crowfeather. A cat from another clan, and as Hollyleaf put it in Eclipse, a terrible father to have. He disowned them. The fact that Hollyleaf was half clan was her breaking point. She was the daughter of a medicine cat and her parents were from different clans. Her birth was alleged. It had been lied to cover up. This in her words killed the warrior code. The Warrior code had to be avenged. She had the perfect revenge too. The best way to hurt Leafpool and Squirrelflight was too ruin their reputations. She did this by telling their secret to the clans at the gathering. So the oxymoron continues. Hollyleaf killed Ashfur to protect her reputation, protect the code, and bring him to justice. Yet in the end she did exactly what she had killed Ashfur for. She told the secret to hurt Leafpool and Squirrelflight for wronging her. She wanted to punish liars which is exactly how Ashfur described Squirrelflight. In the end she broke the code for the sake of her own hatred. In the end Ashfur had died in vain. The person who silenced him only did what he had been killed for. What was the point? What was the point in any of this? She fought so hard to protect her reputation and bring justice to people. However her perfect world cracked. Her clan turned against her. Nothing was solved. She had done more bad than good. She chose not to kill Leafpool because “living was worse than death” similar to how Ashfur felt about Squirrelflight. Cinderheart told her that in this case there was never a right answer. Which destroyed her mentality of right and wrong even further. She had broken her own morals to protect her morals. Yet she could not accept that. So she faked her own death and ran away from everything she knew. She could not face her clan. The unknown was less scary than their judgement. “I know I did the right thing, but no one will ever understand that” sums up her conflict perfectly. She did all of this for to protect virtues. Justice and truth. Is that not the right thing to do? Yet to protect justice she committed injustices. To protect truth she lied. The clan would never forgive her for that. The future she had hoped for, being leader, was gone. She had corrupted her own morals. She ran away from all of this in cowardice. No one mourns the wicked. And she ran away from it all in cowardice. “Was it worth it... Hollyleaf cried.” Was it worth it indeed. As a politician we build ourselves up in the eyes of the public to fit that perfect image. But the moment that image is shattered and all of our misendeavors falcities are exposed. Then you are torn down and cast aside. Being lied to is not forgivable and a liar does not deserve power. When you are lying on the cold hard ground and fallen from the pedestal in which you once stood you wonder “was it worth it?” The lies you told, the enemies you made, the people you pushed down that were in your way, the destruction left behind because of your mistakes. Was it really worth it. Many of us may love Hollyleaf but in reality, we find hard to forgive people who have done what she has done. We do not forgive liars nor trust those with multiple offenses. We walked with Hollyleaf through her story. We watched her devolve and become corrupted. We watched her play the villain of her own story. Some of us loved her, others hated her and it is easy to end the story here but it doesn’t. In the tunnels she met Fallen Leaves a ghost cat who helped her come to terms with what had happened and understand that what she had done was wrong. Understand that what she had done was wrong. With that she began to regret. With regret she was humiliated. She had a bit of a perfectionist complex and with perfection comes arrogance. Humility is the death of arrogance. With her regret she silently protected her clan from afar. She left herbs for Jayfeather when he was low. Saved Ivypool and Blossamfall. Saved Poppyfrost’s children. And she saved Ivypool (again) and dovewing. They and Lionblaze later forced her to return to the clans when they discovered her. However this leads to my greatest vex with the story. She never told her clan the truth. She never told Thunderclan that she killed Ashfur. Instead she just let Brambleclaw lie for her. Let the clan believe that his death was self-defense. She faced the clans ridicule. They were outright nasty to her. However because she continued lying to them it just feels insincere. She needed to face her fears and that was facing the ridicule of her clan. She ran away because of this. Overcoming her cowardice was something she needed to do. Though she lacks in overcoming her cowardice in other ways she shines. She takes the criticism with grace. Her former cleverness shines when she leads a counter attack against Windclan and Sol her mortal enemy who finally has no control over her. The praise she receives she accepts with humility. She accepts that she is not a part of the prophecy. The power she once seeked means nothing to her. Instead she supports others from the side and protects the people she cares for. She makes peace with Leafpool and Squirrelflight. And once again guides her brothers when they need help. The best of her shines again. She no longer is bound by an old reputation. The clan forgives her and so do many fans. Hollyleaf’s story then ends when she dies to save Ivypool. In a way this makes me less bitter about Hollyleaf not telling the clan the truth. The first time she “died” she died out of cowardice. This time she died a hero saving someone else rather than herself. Many people have found it in their hearts to forgive Hollyleaf. Generally fans are attracted to repentant characters. Yet we find it hard to forgive people like her. Trust betrayed is hard to be re earned. She is like the politician I mention at the beginning. Hollyleaf built herself up and she crashed down. She is the story of how one can become corrupted along their paths and what you must do to mend the broken bridges and fix broken hearts. Sometimes it is not perfect, as I mentioned Hollyleaf never faced her fears which is a turn off for many including avid Hollyleaf fan myself. She also shows that the road is not easy and not everyone will trust you. You can love her for the fact that she learned from her mistakes or hate her because in the end she still kept lying. Or you could have different reasons entirely. Either way, Hollyleaf will never cease to be an interesting character whether she is the hero or the villain of the story.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post by pastelpills on Nov 8, 2016 23:38:25 GMT -5
Unintentionally Sympathetic Hollyleaf Remember this topic I made a few months ago.http://forums.warriorcats.com/topic/the-dark-room In it I mentioned how Hollyleaf was always supposed to be a villain and that Kate hates her. In the past few months however I can't help but think there is another thing going on. I think Hollyleaf is a case of unintentionally sympathetic. According to tv tropes unintentionally sympathetic is "A case of Misaimed Fandom...possibly with justification. A character who is supposed to be a villain draws our natural sympathies over the so-called hero." I think Hollyleaf fits this because though its not obvious at first it becomes possible if you really think about it. Everyone knows why Hollyleaf is a sympathetic character. She made a real prat of herself in sunrise and then came back in oots to make amends and even grows some humility. She actively tries to improve her relations till her life is cut short. However there are a lot of weird things that happen to Hollyleaf. Firstly her arc was never properly ended. Hollyleaf left the clans because she was afraid of their judgement. To finish her arc, Hollyleaf needed to conquer her fear and return to the clans willingly and tell the truth about murdering Ashfur. She didn't do this. Lionblaze forced Hollyleaf to come back and she hid behind Bramblestar when he lied for her. Hollyleaf also needed to stop being xenophobic. Though this was tuned down, she noticeably turned her nose up at Ivypool when she thought she and Tigerheart were dating. This shows that she’s still kind of xenophobic. It also shows shes still not over the secret. Which is odd. You would think that being away for so long would have allowed Hollyleaf some time to think and get over the past. In Hollyleaf's novella its shown Fallen Leaves has to talk to her and show her that what she did was wrong. Hollyleaf didn't even really forgive openly Leafpool till the last second. All of these things clearly indicate a jerk character but they don't seem to be enough to the fans to consider hating her over it. Then we consider the erins opinions. Kate hates Hollyleaf which explains Hollyleaf's less than proper portrayal in the last 2 books of oots. Then we have Vicky's comment about Bramblestar's Storm. She said Hollyleaf didn't give Bramblestar a life for "obvious reasons". To the fans and myself, what are these "obvious reasons"? Hollyleaf seems to have earned her spot in Starclan and respect from her father. What is vicky thinking? Then there is Ashfur who got into Starclan for a relatively dumb reason and Bramblestar's Storm doesn't even show him as remorseful. Yet the erins seem to like him while they hate hollyleaf who is both more honerable than Ashfur and more dishonerable than Ashfur, depending upon how you judge her. When you add all this together the bad writing in the Forggoten Warrior for Hollyleaf makes sense. I don't think the erins wanted us to like Hollyleaf. Or at least we weren't supposed to like her as much as we do. I think Hollyleaf was supposed to be seen as kind of pathetic, but because we see her actively try to improve her situation, we unintentionally see Hollyleaf as sympathethic. Great job Erins. You gotta love the last sentence.
|
|
|
Post by wheeledwarrior on Nov 9, 2016 18:53:14 GMT -5
I'm not particularly a fan of her, mainly because I feel like she doesn't get any proper punishment for crimes… She murdered someone, and tried to kill her own mother… On top of revealing a secret that made everyone else in her family miserable, and running away instead of facing her Clan…
And why would she murder Ashfur if she was going to tell the secret anyway? Her entire reason for killing him was so he could not reveal the secret, but what does she do? Reveal it anyway, in front of all four Clans… Sure, she saved a bunch of people and seem to regret her actions, but I feel like that should've been too late, and she should not have been accepted back… Or rather, if she was accepted back, make her go through some sort of punishment within the Clan like her mother did… Then, have tried to better herself while enduring that punishment to show that she truly is loyal to the clan… That would've been a far more realistic version and believable series of events than her just getting accepted back, and getting off scott-free…
Not to mention, if this happened, I would've preferred that she lived and tried to rebuild her life and trust with their Clanmates… With her early death, not only can she not do that, but it truly feels like she got away with a crime without a consequence… Basically, I would've liked her if she was written better, but she isn't, so I don't…
Not to mention, she gets a lot of cameos in fan fiction… Way too many of them…
|
|
Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
|
Post by finland on Nov 9, 2016 19:14:32 GMT -5
Why did she kill Ashfur because he was going to tell Squirrelflight's secret but then ended up telling it herself?
|
|
|
Post by sparklepaw on Nov 9, 2016 21:14:47 GMT -5
Wow those essays are really incredible and thought-provoking! It also brings me to make my own comment about why I think maybe Hollyleaf let Brambleclaw lie for her. At the time, she seemed ready to tell the truth to her clan. But Brambleclaw jumped in and told his somewhat of a cover-up story to the clan. It came out of the blue, and I think Hollyleaf was far from expecting it. But once Brambleclaw had said this, Hollyleaf may have been too stunned to speak. Because after all, even though it was a lie, it also had quite a few elements of truth to it; Ashfur had tried to kill her and her brothers at one point, even though this wasn't the truth of the story as to why she killed Ashfur. And, the ultimate truth came out that she did, in fact, kill Ashfur. So even though this was not the whole truth by a long-shot, if she had spoken over Brambleclaw at the time, she would have been hurting him as well, considering it would have made him an all-out liar in front of the clan when he was only trying to help the cat he had once believed to be his daughter.
Not to say this is justifiable, but I feel like at the time being, she was too shocked at the time and also would have felt bad dismissing the deputy right there when he was trying his best to stand up for her. We see that she is not fully happy with this later on, when she is speaking to Lionblaze and tells him that the Clan still doesn't know the real truth. I think she feels a degree of guilt that the whole truth wasn't spoken, and if her life wasn't cut short, who is to say she never would have come forward eventually? There is no way to know for sure, and like I said, I'm definitely not defending her decision to go along with Brambleclaw's lie. Just my thoughts!
|
|