Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Nov 5, 2016 19:21:46 GMT -5
In light of the supposed TigerxDove super edition, I might as well mention my thoughts on this relationship. Recently a friend brought up an old topic of mine from 2012 that reminds me of why I didn’t like this relationship and why I hated talking about it. The reason I hate to do so is because most people like to blame Tigerheart’s immaturity for why the relationship fell apart. I don’t think that’s true. I put most of the blame on Dovewing.
In this old topic Me and my friend Leonard were laughing about these 2 quotes:
"Whitewing paused. “I was talking to Bumblestripe earlier,” she remarked. “He’s a nice young warrior – so polite! He likes you a lot, you know.”
Dovewing began to feel hot and uncomfortable in her pelt. “I know,” she muttered, squirming with embarrassment.
“You’ll need to find a mate one day, to keep the Clan going,” Whitewing pointed out.
“There’s plenty of time,” Dovewing meowed. Will the prophecy allow me to have a mate? How can I have kits if I might be called on to save the Clan at any moment? An image of Tigerheart flashed into her mind, his eyes sparkling as if he were going to spring at her and roll her over in a play fight. Tigerheart would understand…"
The Last Hope, pg. 107:
"Next leaf-fall you might be living in ThunderClan," she [Dovewing] whispered. The idea made her warm. "We might have kits."
Cold air hit her pelt as Tigerheart drew away. "Whoa!" He glanced sideways at her, not breaking his pace. "That's not important right now, is it?" His mew was light, but his words felt like a claw-scratch on Dovewing's heart.
"O-of course not!" Why had she blurted out such nonsense. If Tigerheart wasn't ready, that was okay. Just being warrior is great!
These two exchanges say a lot about how Dovewing and Tigerheart viewed their relationship. They were not on the same page. Dovewing wanted to start a family with Tigerheart. She wanted him to give up his life in Shadowclan for her. She didn’t stop to think of the weight of such a commitment and she was heartbroken when Tigerheart indirectly said that wasn’t what he wanted. Dovewing thought Tigerheart would always put her needs over anyone else’s, whether it be clan or family. Tigerheart on the other hand, didn’t want children with Dovewing and actively tried to balance the needs of his clan and her needs. This can be seen when he asks for Dovewing to urge Firestar to give Shadowclan catmint to save Littlecloud’s life or just steal the catmint but then backs off when she says that would be betraying her clan.
The reasons why I hate Dovewing have a lot to do with how she treated Tigerheart. She was rather hypocritical. She expected Tigerheart to put her needs above anyone else’s and give up his life for her, possibly face social ostracization in the process, yet she wasn’t willing to do the same for him. She wanted him to move to Thunderclan, not her move to Shadowclan. She wanted him to put her trust over Littlecloud’s life. She wanted him to betray Shadowclan for her, yet she wasn’t willing to do the same for him. If you are going to expect that amount of commitment from someone you should be offering the same level back. Worse still, she expected him to know this without communicating how she felt. You cannot just expect to be able to just vibe someone how you view things. Not everyone is capable of deciphering vibes and the act generates confusion. She also should not have shouted over him when he tried to explain his point of view. I get that Dovewing is young but she really doesn’t change throughout the series.
Tigerheart’s problem is that I think his love for Dovewing jaded his view of her. The dynamic between these two was basically a 20 year old dating a 14 year old. There is a clear maturity difference between the two and that’s expected. Tigerheart made the mistake of treating Dovewing like a 20 year old, when she isn’t one. Other than that, I think Tigerheart was fairly mature. He tried to explain his actions to Dovewing even though she wouldn’t listen. He didn’t have sex with her (at least that is implied, I’m not sure if that’s true) because he knew he didn’t want to deal with the responsibilities of children. He understood the needs of Thunderclan and Shadowclan, which is why he didn’t force Dovewing to steal catmint. He didn’t expect Dovewing to give up her life for him because he understood the weight of their circumstances. His main mistake was not making sure she saw things the same way as him.
So why do I appear to be biased against Dovewing if both sides had clear faults? With Tigerheart, despite bad communication, his expectations would have worked if he had some other partner with similar values. He expected the same amount of commitment from the other party as he was willing to give. That is a sign of a mature person. Dovewing expected more commitment from the other party than she was willing to give herself. It wouldn’t matter who she was with, she expected her partner to bend over backwards for her but not the other way around. No relationship can survive under these circumstances. Healthy relationships are mutually beneficial and that is not what Dovewing wanted. You see this philosophy in immature people.
Even if the fiasco with Ivypool didn’t happen Tigerxdove was doomed from the start. Tigerheart and Dovewing did not have similar views on what to expect from one another. What I don’t understand is why people think Tigerheart is the main reason the relationship fell apart. It’s not his fault Dovewing had unrealistic expectations of how he should act and it’s not his fault she shouted over him when he tried to explain himself.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 5, 2016 19:44:40 GMT -5
So you're comparing the younger Dovewing to the older one? That doesn't make sense. When you're in a relationship, communication is the key. She thought that because Tigerheart wanted to meet with her, said he loved her, and wanted to be with her, that they'd have a future together. She thought that he might come to ThunderClan to be with her sure, but at least she was taking their relationship seriously, unlike Tigerheart. He didn't take her powers seriously, didn't take their relationship seriously either, and it all seemed like a careless dream to him that he could be swingy about. A relationship needs balance, Dovewing was actively trying to find that balance, but also trying to run from the pressure of her destiny, especially at such a young age. But Tigerheart was playing with her heart in a way, he was always persistent about wanting to meet her, like back at the gathering, he didn't even give her a chance to reply. And when she said they had to end things, there was bigger problems, she wasn't wrong, he pulled the "I love you" card. It's actually similar to Ashfur, who said this to Squirrelflight out of desperation of not wanting to lose her. You can say Dovewing is selfish all you want, but it doesn't change that out of the two she was the one taking their relationship seriosly, and the one to realize that things needed to end and that what was between them was wrong. Dovewing was the more mature one out of the two. While Tigerheart thought a few sugary words would solve all their problems. Another thing is that even though she was foolish to mention the catmint she thought she could trust Tigerheart enough because of their relationship, apparently not. You say that Dovewing expected Tiger to bend over backwards, well Tiger expected Dovewing to always fall for his little games, and be carefree with him forever, and when it's only convenient to him. What Dovewing wanted was something that was mutually beneficial, if Tigerheart had came to ThunderClan there wouldn't be problems. Also who's to say she wouldn't have been willing to go to ShadowClan? Tigerheart never even brought up the idea of it, let alone the possibility of them having kits at all, yet he's "oh so in love" with her like he claimed.
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Post by mEmE on Nov 5, 2016 20:43:31 GMT -5
"Taking a relationship seriously"
It's kind of like that stereotypical couple in high school, where one person is dedicated, commuted, and cares. While the other person is probably just in the relationship for fun and for the heck of it. Which seems to be the case. Not saying that Tigerheart is a bad person, they're just not on the same page. Happens pretty frequently in real life too.
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Post by poppy. on Nov 6, 2016 2:11:20 GMT -5
There are a number of flaws that Tigerheart has that I dislike, but through the entirety of the series I was certainly under the impression that a majority of the issues lied with Dovewing and her expectations. Which, if we are honest here, were very unrealistic. She couldn't possibly expect him to give her the level of commitment she wasn't willing to give him. And they wanted different things out of life, and while she thought that was selfish of him, it was far more incredibly selfish of her to think he needed to drop everything for her. Therefore I entirely agree with Holly on this. Tigerheart and Dovewing are not a good or decently possible couple.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 6, 2016 3:25:46 GMT -5
Ya are honestly not making sense. So it's Dovewing who is more selfish for expecting to have a future with Tigerheart. But it not as selfish for Tigerheart to string her along the way he did? Also again, who's to say Dovewing wouldn't have been willing to go to ShadowClan to be with Tigerheart instead? The problem here is that Tigerheart wasn't taking their relationship seriously, at all. Like what mEmE pretty much understood, Tigerheart was treating their relationship like a game. Or taking advantage of it for his own gain toward his clan. And at the mere mention of them having a future together, and having kits one day, whether it was in ThunderClan or not, Tigerheart obviously never even considered the possibility. And just wanted to continue their relationship carefree, thinking Dovewing would go along with it if he just told her he loved her. I'm not saying Dovewing isn't selfish for "fantasizing" at the "possibility" that Tiger and her would be together in TC, but it also shows that she was the only one in the relationship, actually taking it seriously. |
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Nov 7, 2016 20:33:05 GMT -5
Let's look at both sides of the relationship:
Tigerheart:
-First to ask to meet
-Found a specific, secret meeting place
-Offered to meet once a moon
-Asked about Dovewing's den mates
-Told Dovewing not to steal from her clan
-Told his clan about the herbs they needed
-Did not want to have kits
-Wanted to continue the relationship after it ended
-Seems pretty frustrated at Dovewing
From the start, Tigerheart knew what he wanted from the relationship. He had everything planned out. He had a place where they wouldn't get caught, he didn't offer to meed every night so that they could avoid suspicion. Having this in mind he asked her to meet up with him. When Dovewing offered to meet every night, he asked about her den mates so that they wouldn't get caught, to which Dovewing told him that Ivypool wasn't a threat to their relationship. As for Tigerheart himself, he is from ShadowClan, the clan known for hunting at night. It wouldn't really look that suspicious if a ShadowClan cat says they just like to hunt at night.
Tigerheart didn't really think of Dovewing as her mate, but as a girlfriend that he went out with and had fun once in a while. He probably just wanted to get a break from all the stress from the Dark Forest. He wasn't fully committed to the relationship, and didn't want to betray his clan to fully be with her or deal with kits. This was pretty selfish as it was mainly for Tigerheart's enjoyment, and it could have prevented Dovewing from having a mate in the future if it continued. However, as Holly Clinton said, he did have the maturity to except the same, and not any more, from Dovewing.
He probably wants to gain back the relationship so he could have those fun nights again. But is frustrated when he sees her, perhaps because he is unsure about her feelings towards him or is just frustrated at himself for continuing to have feelings.
Either way, it is clear that he as some resentment or frustrations towards her, but still longs for her.
Dovewing:
-Went with Tigerheart's plans (accepted to meet him, met at his place)
-Offered to meet every night
-Offered to steal from her clan
-Got angry with Tigerheart for telling about the catmint
-Broke off the relationship
-Told Tigerheart that he might be in ThunderClan they might have kits
-Broke up with him again
-As far as we know, does not want to continue the relationship
-Is pleased to see him, still
Throughout the duration of the relationship, Dovewing made all her decisions in the moment without giving much thought. In addition to that, she had unrealistic idealistic views and expectations for the relationship. First she offered meet Tigerheart every night which is not good for her, a growing cat, and often interfered with her training. When the catmint situation came up, she offered to steal for her clan, which is a bad idea because the clan could easily identify her scent on the catmint.
Dovewing had a fantasy in her head of how she wanted the relationship to play out and she had her unrealistically high expectations to match that. She wanted Tigerheart to go to ThunderClan have kits with her and they would live happily ever after. It was unfair to hold Tigerheart to this, especially as she was not willing to abandon her clan. Although, in her defense, she was young and naive and wasn't ready for a relationship.
As she matured, she saw that the relationship wasn't good for her, but probably still thinks back to all the fun nights they had. She made the smart decision of ending the relationship and trying to move on (though failing). She has also shown to genuinely care about Tigerheart to some extent when she was glad that his clan mates forgave him for the Dark Forest. She still seems confused about her feelings, however as she is inconsistent on her interactions with him. At times she would be eager to see him and at other times she would try to pretend he's not there. This is probably confusing to Tigerheart.
Both cats were selfish in terms of the relationship. Tigerheart for engaging in a not fully committed relationship, and Dovewing for expecting more from Tigerheart that she was willing to do herself.
This was also an ill-communicated relationship. Tigerheart failed to communicate his ideals for the relationship, just having fun nights once in a while, causing young Dovewing to have unrealistically high expectations.
With this, the relationship would just not work due to the different viewpoints of the two cats and their selfish desires from the relationship. It wouldn't have worked well even if they were in the same clan.
In terms of the aftermath:
Dovewing also didn't break off the relationship in the best way. Although breaking up the relationship was a good idea. Breaking it off by giving Tigerheart the cold-shoulder was not the best idea. She would often ignore Tigerheart and avoid talking to him when there are some words that need to be said like her current stance on their relationship and if they are going to be friends. There would be other times where Dovewing would be eager to see him and would talk to him. She probably has good intent here and is trying to patch things up, but this is probably really confusing and frustrating to Tigerheart.
Tigerheart wasn't any better during the aftermath of the relationship. When Dovewing was talking to him, he would get all angry around her, but when she wasn't talking to him, he would ask about her or stare. Though this is probably out of frustration and confusion at Dovewing's inconsistent behavior, it is immature and is only making things worse.
What they really need now is to have a talk and come to terms with what has happened and become friends. They shouldn't get back together, but it would be nice of they would get it off their chest and stop having these confused feelings towards each other. Plus, it would be nice to see an ex-couple become friends.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 7, 2016 21:39:32 GMT -5
Maplefrost, you imply that wanting children is every couple's dream. You are implying that thinking about having children one day with someone constitutes maturity. It does not. Thinking about your future is not sufficient for being mature. Dovewing was under the impression her needs should always come first when Tigerheart was making decisions. This ultimately destroyed their relationship. Dovewing wanted to have kits with him but her expectations show that she wasn't really ready to even be a mother. There needs to be an equal balance between peoples needs in a family which Dovewing did not want. You also act like we know what Tigerheart was thinking. We don't. He may have considered the possibility of children privately, but didn't like it. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. Even Dovewing acknowledged that if he wasn't ready they wouldn't have kits. We do know what Dovewing thought throughout the course of the books and it was not pretty like the way you describe. You also have not clarified what you mean when you say Tigerheart played games with Dovewing. I'm not saying it's every couples dream. I'm trying to figure out why it's apparently selfish for Dovewing to think about having kits one day with, idk, her future possible mate, is more selfish than how Tigerheart is in the relationship? I'm saying Dovewing is the mature one because she was the only one actually taking the relationship seriously by taking their future AND the current situation into consideration. It's Dovewing who always brings up the issues with her powers, the clans fighting, the upcoming war, let alone if they even might have had a future together. Also what do you expect though? In a relationship if you love someone then you should be able to put them first. Crow and Leaf apparently loved one another, enough to consider running away together, as much as I hate the pairing. But Crowfeather was willing to throw away everything just to be with Leafpool, who on the other hand was not. I'm not saying that's true love, I'm just saying that you need to figure out priorities when in a relationship or not have one in the first place. The mere fact that Tiegrheart was already willing to break the code to meet with Dovewing and have a relationship with her, but constantly ignore the possibilities of punishment, and trying to figure out where their relationship might go in the near future, is imo, not mature, at all. The way he was thinking was, "Hey I love you, so even if I use you for information for my clan's sake, and destroy the trust between us, if I tell you I love you, and ignore all of those real problems over our head, we'll be able to work things out." Are you seriously just going to ignore the big problem here? Do I think it's selfish that Dovewing assumed Tiger would live with her one day? A little. But do I think it's more selfish for Tigerheart to string her along and play their relationship like a game? Yes, even more selfish. This is what I'm saying. Even if we don't know what Tigerheart is thinking Dovewing blatantly notes displeasingly how much he keeps ignoring the bigger issues that also correlates with their relationship, hence why she ended things. He wasn't taking it seriously. |
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 7, 2016 21:43:46 GMT -5
Let's look at both sides of the relationship: Tigerheart: -First to ask to meet -Found a specific, secret meeting place -Offered to meet once a moon -Asked about Dovewing's den mates -Told Dovewing not to steal from her clan -Told his clan about the herbs they needed -Did not want to have kits -Wanted to continue the relationship after it ended -Seems pretty frustrated at Dovewing From the start, Tigerheart knew what he wanted from the relationship. He had everything planned out. He had a place where they wouldn't get caught, he didn't offer to meed every night so that they could avoid suspicion. Having this in mind he asked her to meet up with him. When Dovewing offered to meet every night, he asked about her den mates so that they wouldn't get caught, to which Dovewing told him that Ivypool wasn't a threat to their relationship. As for Tigerheart himself, he is from ShadowClan, the clan known for hunting at night. It wouldn't really look that suspicious if a ShadowClan cat says they just like to hunt at night. Tigerheart didn't really think of Dovewing as her mate, but as a girlfriend that he went out with and had fun once in a while. He probably just wanted to get a break from all the stress from the Dark Forest. He wasn't fully committed to the relationship, and didn't want to betray his clan to fully be with her or deal with kits. This was pretty selfish as it was mainly for Tigerheart's enjoyment, and it could have prevented Dovewing from having a mate in the future if it continued. However, as Holly Clinton said, he did have the maturity to except the same, and not any more, from Dovewing. He probably wants to gain back the relationship so he could have those fun nights again. But is frustrated when he sees her, perhaps because he is unsure about her feelings towards him or is just frustrated at himself for continuing to have feelings. Either way, it is clear that he as some resentment or frustrations towards her, but still longs for her. Dovewing: -Went with Tigerheart's plans (accepted to meet him, met at his place) -Offered to meet every night -Offered to steal from her clan -Got angry with Tigerheart for telling about the catmint -Broke off the relationship -Told Tigerheart that he might be in ThunderClan they might have kits -Broke up with him again -As far as we know, does not want to continue the relationship -Is pleased to see him, still Throughout the duration of the relationship, Dovewing made all her decisions in the moment without giving much thought. In addition to that, she had unrealistic idealistic views and expectations for the relationship. First she offered meet Tigerheart every night which is not good for her, a growing cat, and often interfered with her training. When the catmint situation came up, she offered to steal for her clan, which is a bad idea because the clan could easily identify her scent on the catmint. Dovewing had a fantasy in her head of how she wanted the relationship to play out and she had her unrealistically high expectations to match that. She wanted Tigerheart to go to ThunderClan have kits with her and they would live happily ever after. It was unfair to hold Tigerheart to this, especially as she was not willing to abandon her clan. Although, in her defense, she was young and naive and wasn't ready for a relationship. As she matured, she saw that the relationship wasn't good for her, but probably still thinks back to all the fun nights they had. She made the smart decision of ending the relationship and trying to move on (though failing). She has also shown to genuinely care about Tigerheart to some extent when she was glad that his clan mates forgave him for the Dark Forest. She still seems confused about her feelings, however as she is inconsistent on her interactions with him. At times she would be eager to see him and at other times she would try to pretend he's not there. This is probably confusing to Tigerheart.
Both cats were selfish in terms of the relationship. Tigerheart for engaging in a not fully committed relationship, and Dovewing for expecting more from Tigerheart that she was willing to do herself. This was also an ill-communicated relationship. Tigerheart failed to communicate his ideals for the relationship, just having fun nights once in a while, causing young Dovewing to have unrealistically high expectations. With this, the relationship would just not work due to the different viewpoints of the two cats and their selfish desires from the relationship. It wouldn't have worked well even if they were in the same clan. In terms of the aftermath: Dovewing also didn't break off the relationship in the best way. Although breaking up the relationship was a good idea. Breaking it off by giving Tigerheart the cold-shoulder was not the best idea. She would often ignore Tigerheart and avoid talking to him when there are some words that need to be said like her current stance on their relationship and if they are going to be friends. There would be other times where Dovewing would be eager to see him and would talk to him. She probably has good intent here and is trying to patch things up, but this is probably really confusing and frustrating to Tigerheart. Tigerheart wasn't any better during the aftermath of the relationship. When Dovewing was talking to him, he would get all angry around her, but when she wasn't talking to him, he would ask about her or stare. Though this is probably out of frustration and confusion at Dovewing's inconsistent behavior, it is immature and is only making things worse. What they really need now is to have a talk and come to terms with what has happened and become friends. They shouldn't get back together, but it would be nice of they would get it off their chest and stop having these confused feelings towards each other. Plus, it would be nice to see an ex-couple become friends. Fair enough. I pretty much agree with this. I also think they need to sit down and work things out, I just hope they don't hook back up again though. |
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Post by pastelpills on Nov 8, 2016 15:46:48 GMT -5
We're getting a DoveXTiger novella
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Post by xσxσJα∂є on Nov 30, 2016 5:39:36 GMT -5
In all honesty, I think they were both pretty childish. Dovewing expected too much without offering the same amount back, and Tigerheart wasn't as serious about the relationship as she was. He was very loyal to his clan but loved her, just as she was loyal to her clan but loved him. But I feel like now that they're both older and more mature, since things didn't even end very clearly, there's still a lot of unresolved feelings. And despite them both being more mature, they still run away from facing the issue but still have feelings for each other. But now that he's staying in ThunderClan, I feel like we're finally going to get closure. But I honestly have a soft spot in my heart for Tigerheart since he was Tigerpaw and training for a short time in ThunderClan with his litter mates. And as for their relationship, it's obvious that they both still love each other and they don't know how to get real closure. I personally thought they were very sweet together, in a teenage love kind of way. But now that theyre older, I think if they were to be together now, it would be a little easier to communicate. I hope they do get back together, but I don't see how that can happen. But then again, Erins are pretty good at mixing things up.
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Post by Pixie on Nov 30, 2016 18:55:00 GMT -5
Since most Super Editions are suppose to be sad, I have the feeling that they won't get back together.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 22:40:50 GMT -5
Dovewing needs to be single, no questions asked. The relationship wasn't right for her from the start, and there was so much drama between Dove X Tiger. Cats like Bramblestar and possibly even Bumblestripe have both already suspected that something is going on between the two. Dovewing and Tigerheart both need to drop their relationship before someone says something.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 6:39:59 GMT -5
i don't think one was worse than the other. they both had hopes for what their relationship would be, tigerheart something fun to take his mind off stress, and dovewing to have his kittens and start a family with him in thunderclan. but the problem was that neither of them communicated what they wanted to each other, which led them both to disappointment. they should have been more vocal and honest with each other. and also, both of them mad quite big mistakes. tigerheart thinking that she would always be his if her just used the "but i love you" card and using her, and dovewing being naive about the relationship and expecting too much from him while not giving it back. and i don't think either of them handled it well after they broke up. they would either be hot or cold to each other. asumbra said, they just need to sit down and have a talk with each other about what they were and finally be at peace with it. they could even be really cute good friends. we need more non romantic, opposite gender, non related cross clan friendships in warriors. but that's just my hope. i just hope they don't end up together again. |
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 1, 2016 11:54:26 GMT -5
After re-reading Thunder and Shadow, I just hope they don't get back together, it's terrible writing and backpedaling development wise, won't bode well for Dovewing's character.
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