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Post by The Noble Dragon on Oct 29, 2016 14:13:13 GMT -5
So i've been reading Dante's Inferno... again and started to think about which of the seven deadly sins fit into each clan and wanted to discuss it!
First here are the Deven Deadly Sins:
1 Gula (gluttony)
2 Luxuria (lust)
3 Avaritia (avarice/greed)
4 Superbia (pride, hubris)
6 Ira (wrath)
7 Vanagloria (Envy)
8 Acedia (sloth)
here is a rough idea of where I think the sins fit in MOST with each clan. not to say other clan's don't experience any of the other sins but where they fit the best. This is my personal opinion and will def be swayed with discussion xD
Thunderclan Pride Lust
Windclan Envy Wrath(In later series)
Shadowclan Wrath (In earlier series) Sloth
Riverclan Greed Gluttony
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Post by The Noble Dragon on Oct 29, 2016 14:40:31 GMT -5
Let me add some definitions for the sins since I feel some of these may seem odd for each clan. (I'm taking these from Wikipedia so if you feel they are wrong then please feel free to correct me!) (Also any thing that talks about religion will be in reference to Starclan in this case)
Gluttony the overindulgence and over consumption of anything to the point of waste. gluttony can be interpreted as selfishness; essentially placing concern with one's own impulses or interests above the well-being or interests of others
Pride The negative version of pride is considered, on almost every list, the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins: the perversion of the faculties that make humans more like God—dignity. it is irrationally believing that one is essentially and necessarily better, superior, or more important than others, failing to acknowledge the accomplishments of others, and excessive admiration of the personal image or self (especially forgetting one's own lack of divinity, and refusing to acknowledge one's own limits, faults, or wrongs as a human being cat).
Lust intense longing. It is usually thought of as intense or unbridled sexual desire. However, lust could also mean simply desire in general; thus, lust for money, power, and other things are sinful.
Envy like greed and lust, is characterized by an insatiable desire. It can be described as a sad or resentful covetousness towards the traits or possessions of someone else. It arises from vainglory, and severs a man from his neighbor. Malicious envy is similar to jealousy in that they both feel discontent towards someone's traits, status, abilities, or rewards. A difference is that the envious also desire the entity and covet it.
Wrath can be defined as uncontrolled feelings of anger, rage, and even hatred, often revealing itself in the wish to seek vengeance. Wrath, in its purest form, presents with injury, violence, and hate that may provoke feuds that can go on for centuries. Wrath may persist long after the person who did another a grievous wrong is dead.
Sloth refers to a peculiar jumble of notions, dating from antiquity and including mental, spiritual, pathological, and physical states. It may be defined as absence of interest or habitual disinclination to exertion. he scope of sloth is wide. Spiritually, acedia first referred to an affliction attending religious persons, wherein they became indifferent to their duties and obligations to God(Starclan). Mentally, acedia, has a number of distinctive components of which the most important is affectlessness, a lack of any feeling about self or other, a mind-state that gives rise to boredom, rancor, apathy, and a passive inert or sluggish mentation, Physically, acedia is fundamentally associated with a cessation of motion and an indifference to work; it finds expression in laziness, idleness, and indolence.
Greed also known as avarice, is, like lust and gluttony, a sin of desire. However, greed (In this case) is applied to an artificial, rapacious desire and pursuit of material possessions. Hoarding of materials or objects, theft and robbery, especially by means of violence, trickery, or manipulation of authority are all actions that may be inspired by Greed.
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Post by Sablemoon on Oct 29, 2016 17:12:31 GMT -5
RiverClan and gluttony are so perfect lol. It's always mentioned at least a few times of how rich their prey was in the river and lake.
An off topic question: Isn't there a Dante's Inferno movie about a volcano erupting in San Francisco? Or was is Los Angeles? I can never remember :/
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Post by The Noble Dragon on Oct 30, 2016 10:30:19 GMT -5
Yeah I figured Gluttony was great for Riverclan because they were always talked about as plump and shiny and well taken care of. I also picked Greed for them because they like to collect little shells for their nest and pretty things, AND because they claimed the entire lake is their territory that one time?? Sooo yeah. Of course all the clans are greedy with wanting more territory and such but I felt it fit Riverclan the best.
I honestly have no idea. I didn't know there was a movie.... I just really like the book
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Post by Πιghtωιηg on Oct 30, 2016 14:47:31 GMT -5
ShadowClan is definitely Pride. In Dawn, I don't remember exactly what is said, but someone says something like this: "ShadowClan has always been the most proud of the Clans. Now that they have lost their camp, their pride is all they have left." Therefore, ShadowClan has the most pride.
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Post by The Noble Dragon on Oct 30, 2016 14:59:16 GMT -5
I see your point but I put Thunderclan as Pride because first of all Thunderclan has been the main clan of the series so the Erins see Thunderclan as the "best clan" And Thunderclan themselves seems to think of themselves above the rest of the clans, they always seem to get the big prophecies and are always the ones to bring the clans together in times of need. The three were even "above/stronger than Starclan" So i feel that Thunderclan best fits the description of Pride above. But yes Shadowclan is almost equally as deserving of the title as most Prideful clan.
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Post by darkforestwarrior on Oct 30, 2016 15:00:06 GMT -5
I could honestly see Pride fitting for all the clans, seeing as they all basically think they are better than any other clans xD But, if we add three more clan groups (Skyclan, Bloodclan, and the Tribe) we can assign exactly one sin to each group. I would assign them as follows:
Gluttony - Bloodclan. They had everything but Scourge could still not be satisfied, and wanted more, leading to him attempting to conquer the forest, and going so far as betraying and murdering Tigerstar so he wouldn't have to give up any of his power. Lust - Shadowclan. Specifically, they have a long line of leaders that wanted more and more power to rule their clan. Brokenstar, Tigerstar, and to an extent Blackstar all displayed this lust for power. Pride - The Tribe. They always seemed to have things figured out for themselves, and while it was appropriate that they were the most knowledgeable of their area, it could be interpreted that they were prideful of the life they had in their mountain home. Envy - Thunderclan. Now, this may seem an unusual place to put Thunderclan, but I think it can still be fitting, because while the clan as a whole was probably not envious, this clan had cats like Tigerstar, Darkstripe, Bluestar(to an extent), Thistleclaw, etc. who were envious of cats in leadership positions. Envious enough to make selfish choices. Greed - Riverclan. Their feud with Thunderclan over the Sunningrocks is the best example, and though we don't really know how badly they needed more territory, they were clearly always sleek and plump and probably were doing fine without the extra land. Hoarding shells and trinkets proves this point further. Wrath - Windclan. This clan has a history of needless rage towards the other clans, sure, most noticeably from Onestar in recent times, however, Tallstar's revenge was hugely about Tallstar having anger problems, and Wind Runner also displayed needless wrath towards the other clans. Sloth - Skyclan (Modern). While it is true that the cats of this clan have founded a clan under unusual circumstances, Daylight Warriors embody the concept of sloth well. They want to live the life of a wild cat, but not all of them are willing to trade in their cushy kittypet lives.
Note that Gluttony/Lust/Greed are almost synonymous and so some of these could maybe be interchangeable and still work, in my opinion :3
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Post by Πιghtωιηg on Oct 30, 2016 15:06:46 GMT -5
I see your point but I put Thunderclan as Pride because first of all Thunderclan has been the main clan of the series so the Erins see Thunderclan as the "best clan" And Thunderclan themselves seems to think of themselves above the rest of the clans, they always seem to get the big prophecies and are always the ones to bring the clans together in times of need. The three were even "above/stronger than Starclan" So i feel that Thunderclan best fits the description of Pride above. But yes Shadowclan is almost equally as deserving of the title as most Prideful clan. They aren't stuck up about it, though. ShadowClan totally would be.
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Post by darkforestwarrior on Oct 30, 2016 15:16:03 GMT -5
Personally, I agree that Shadowclan strikes me as more prideful than Thunderclan. Thunderclan has time and time again gone to other clans when it needed some sort of help, which is a very humble thing to do. Shadowclan has very rarely sought help from other clans for fear of appearing weak, which is quite prideful. Thunderclan may appear in the spotlight far more often and seem more powerful than other clans but that's really because the Erins favor them rather than them being prideful.
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Post by The Noble Dragon on Oct 30, 2016 15:22:26 GMT -5
Gluttony/Lust/Greed are almost sunonymous but there are differences!
I originally didn't want to add the other three bc I just wanted to talk about the four clans but your analysis of the 7 are very interesting! personally I would switch Greed for Bloodclan and Gluttony for Riverclan becuase a lot of what we've seen of Riverclan's culture has to do with Gluttony. Ie. wanting the Sunning Rocks and the shells and trinkets and their abundance of food for me points to that. While with Scourge his greed was endless, first he wanted revenge against his siblings/Tigerpaw then he wanted teh loyalty of all the rogues in the Twolegplace and then he wanted to destroy the clans and so on. For me that spells greed, but I can see where gluttony can be seen as well(since the two are very similar.
I think Windclan is Envy personally. They are seen as the weakest of the clans by the other three clans and they are envious that for a lot of reasons. They always hated that they had to rely on allies to win battles and especially after Onestar became leader they seemed to start fights and battles for no other reason than to prove that they were strong. If they knew they were strong then they wouldn't need to prove it to another clan by attacking them. So In my eyes that is envy.
I totally agree that the tribe would be Pride!
Lust does fit Shadowclan well. (I would also argue that Sloth fits them but yes Sloth fits (modern)Skyclan)
Which leaves Wrath with Thunderclan. I feel Wrath does fit Thunderclan. Wrath, to me, means that you are angry about being wronged which seems to happen alot in Thunderclan's case. When it comes to Sunning Rocks especially, and when another clan moves borders. Thunderclan gets angry, and its an uncontrollable rage it seems that fills the whole clan, why do you think they don't loose many battles? Wrath can be hidden too. It can be viewed as rightousness or a moral to do the "right" thing. You have been wronged so the right thing is to obviously get them back. (Wrath very much fits Windclan as well but I feel Envy fits them more) Thunderclan is very self-rightous, they think they are always right about things and always in the right. So if another clan does something wrong they seem to feel as if they themselves have personally been wronged and have to fix it. (Which actually is a characteristic of being Prideful so yeah oops) Idk if I explained this part well.
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Post by The Noble Dragon on Oct 30, 2016 15:23:30 GMT -5
Personally, I agree that Shadowclan strikes me as more prideful than Thunderclan. Thunderclan has time and time again gone to other clans when it needed some sort of help, which is a very humble thing to do. Shadowclan has very rarely sought help from other clans for fear of appearing weak, which is quite prideful. Thunderclan may appear in the spotlight far more often and seem more powerful than other clans but that's really because the Erins favor them rather than them being prideful. Very very very true. And Nightwing you have a very good point as well. Shadowclan is def Pride.
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Post by Πιghtωιηg on Oct 30, 2016 15:25:07 GMT -5
Personally, I agree that Shadowclan strikes me as more prideful than Thunderclan. Thunderclan has time and time again gone to other clans when it needed some sort of help, which is a very humble thing to do. Shadowclan has very rarely sought help from other clans for fear of appearing weak, which is quite prideful. Thunderclan may appear in the spotlight far more often and seem more powerful than other clans but that's really because the Erins favor them rather than them being prideful. And the Erins favor them because they are the best and least flawed.
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Post by darkforestwarrior on Oct 30, 2016 15:38:23 GMT -5
I had greed and gluttony the opposite way around because as noted in the definition of Greed, it tends to refer more to material possessions, which is fitting as Riverclan wants land (material) and prey (material) and hoards shells (material)
Scourge's thirst for power feels more like Gluttony to me because as stated in the definition, it cites overindugence, wastefulness (Bloodclan is the only clan we have seen that murders its own kind, and also does not care for its weak, both of which could be considered selfishly wasteful). Scourge very much did put his wellbeing over that of every other cat. His thirst for power was insatiable, much like an unending hunger that could never be filled.
Again though, I think these definitions really are close enough that either clan could work in either position, this is just my interpretation of the definitions and why I placed them where I did xD
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Post by nem on Nov 2, 2016 16:13:41 GMT -5
ShadowClan is definitely Pride. In Dawn, I don't remember exactly what is said, but someone says something like this: "ShadowClan has always been the most proud of the Clans. Now that they have lost their camp, their pride is all they have left." Therefore, ShadowClan has the most pride. "ShadowClan: The Wily and Proud"
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